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Emmisal

The God Debate - Is it really about evidence?

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back to earth

Mhe ..... anyone that knows him (here) aint surprised .... from what he has revealed about himself and his likes , killing people for committing crimes seems a 'logical' extension.

I still want to know how he would kill them ? Perhaps different innovative and creative methods, depending on and suited to the type of crime ?

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XenoFish

Should I go get the straight jacket now............or maybe later?

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Sherapy

Mhe ..... anyone that knows him (here) aint surprised .... from what he has revealed about himself and his likes , killing people for committing crimes seems a 'logical' extension.

I still want to know how he would kill them ? Perhaps different innovative and creative methods, depending on and suited to the type of crime ?

Indeed, I did think it was an eyebrow raising argument of his that God has given him a life of abundance, health, and unending happiness, free of emotions, super powers, as just a little perk of being handpicked by him, and God has given him the mission of sending him out into the world to hog wrangle people to the 'good news' ( chemical control, now) to make sure everyone gets that no one could possibly ever have a better life, or be more moral than Mr. Walker.

Then, he was posting he may have to consider euthanasia ( and he will take the jail time) for his wife in the event her illness progresses to the point she can no longer worship God.

For me, God is about the evidence and in this case it's a NO thanks!

Edited by Sherapy
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XenoFish

Then, he was posting he may have to consider euthanasia ( and he will take the jail time) for his wife in the event her illness progresses to the point she can no longer worship God.

Wait what? That's just...no, no, no, no! Probably the most selfish thing I've read today. What kind of monster would end someone's life because of this, well besides psychopaths.

The only way I could do such a thing is if I 100% had to. Even then I'd rather tear my soul to shreds because of it. Dying soon after because of grief and self-hate. Just no. Nope, nada.

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Mr Walker

MW, you are accusing people of things that have not been said to you.

And no one is attacking your wife, I personally think she is a saint for putting up with you, you are a handful and then some on UM.

THANK you for being clear on this That wasn't all that I read into your comments, but in part that is my problem because i am now so suspicious of your motivation in every comment you make about me and my family . I am happy to accept you are genuine in this statement.

The other points are a matter of record in posts, where others can interpret comments as they wish.

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Mr Walker

Wait what? That's just...no, no, no, no! Probably the most selfish thing I've read today. What kind of monster would end someone's life because of this, well besides psychopaths.

The only way I could do such a thing is if I 100% had to. Even then I'd rather tear my soul to shreds because of it. Dying soon after because of grief and self-hate. Just no. Nope, nada.

Please go back and read my posts/

Sherapy has again misrepresented, or left incomplete, our discussion. My wife nursed her parents in our home, through altzheimers ( a process taking nearly 10 years) til their death. (with my help) She fears loss of self awareness and thus a loss of connection to a god she has loved and worshipped all her life and communicates with every day (along with the fear of losing all recognition of self and others, and becoming totally dependent on others to be fed clothed washed etc. )

She has asked me to ensure she does not go through this.

I Love her enough to do as she asks, despite the consequences (although there are legal ways around this in Australia. We could easily and legally have ended her parents lives long before we did by going through with legal medical suggestions )

I STILL don't know if i can do it, but she has asked me to and i have not denied her. Once she is no longer self aware i would be happy to care for her the rest of her life, as we did for her parents ( i would not put her in a home unless i was forced to by my own age )

THAT is the conversation i had with Sherapy.

Now, if you still feel i am a monster, fair enough .

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Mr Walker

But, you say you are well educated , and use logic and are familiar with philosophy ? I already tried to broach this subject with you but you ignored it.

Anyway, here ya go , this explains it all quiet well .... see which character you are most like in it ;)

http://www.gutenberg...72-h/1672-h.htm

An ad. from project gutenberg? if you mean a narcissist i have responded in detail to such views, illustrating logically and evidentially why i cannot be a narcissist. Have you noticed i have not responded in kind, even though it would be interesting to get a reading on your own personality type

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Sherapy

Wait what? That's just...no, no, no, no! Probably the most selfish thing I've read today. What kind of monster would end someone's life because of this, well besides psychopaths.

The only way I could do such a thing is if I 100% had to. Even then I'd rather tear my soul to shreds because of it. Dying soon after because of grief and self-hate. Just no. Nope, nada.

I just don't know why he wouldn't hire a caregiver or use his Australian gold standard medical and get her the best care, if his wife was to get Alzheimer's and couldn't worship God she would never know. In the meantime, he could see to it she had the best care possible.

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Davros of Skaro

Should I go get the straight jacket now............or maybe later?

Make it look like a Trenchcoat.

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Sherapy

Please go back and read my posts/

Sherapy has again misrepresented, or left incomplete, our discussion. My wife nursed her parents in our home, through altzheimers ( a process taking nearly 10 years) til their death. (with my help) She fears loss of self awareness and thus a loss of connection to a god she has loved and worshipped all her life and communicates with every day (along with the fear of losing all recognition of self and others, and becoming totally dependent on others to be fed clothed washed etc. )

She has asked me to ensure she does not go through this.

I Love her enough to do as she asks, despite the consequences (although there are legal ways around this in Australia. We could easily and legally have ended her parents lives long before we did by going through with legal medical suggestions )

I STILL don't know if i can do it, but she has asked me to and i have not denied her. Once she is no longer self aware i would be happy to care for her the rest of her life, as we did for her parents ( i would not put her in a home unless i was forced to by my own age )

THAT is the conversation i had with Sherapy.

Now, if you still feel i am a monster, fair enough .

This supports you are rich in your own words,

"No. You see that is YOUR assumption. God didn't make me better but my relationship with him and my understanding of the connection between me, god and all humanity, motivated me to help others. Second i clearly said we are RICH. There is no poverty in our lives. We live as we chose to live, not forced by circumstances We get all we need to supply EVERY need in our lives We dont indulge don't waste and dont spend on things we dont need, but still we are rich. even by Australian standards." ( Walker, Pointlessness of Religion).

Here is support that you do would indeed consider euthanasia for your wife there is no misrepresentation.

Xeno is giving his opinion on ending your wife's life, for him that is unfathomable and I too would not end my hubby's life due to the fact he couldn't believe in big foot anymore I'd tell him he wouldn't know, and that it would not be a burden to care for him or put him in a home, I'd tell him let me worry about it, that I had his back.

Of course MW you are entitled to think and do as you choose too.

"The bible does NOT say god condemns humans to eternal torment nor does it say that when you die you go either to hell or heaven .That is catholic theology and interpretation of the bible To an atheist its all belief anyway but it totally changes ones understanding of the nature of the biblical god..

I haven't made my mind up about wha tot do with my wife yet. It may never happen as i might die first or she could die in good mental health

I support euthanasia and the right to die As stated i am prepared to break a law i see as morally wrong or harmful, and accept the consequences." ( MW, Pointlessness of Religion).

Edited by Sherapy
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Mr Walker

I really do not think I did at all. You want more detail is all. All you need do is ask.

Because a community relies on every member to pull their weight, nobody has the right to put a hole in a family or system for their own selfish desires. The word "community" sort of spells that out reall.

For the same reasons listed above, some hold very important positions in the community, and just like an ecosystem, if part of that is removed, the entire structure can fail and rapidly.

Because we have to decide together if an individual is valuable, if the killing was accidently, making them clumsy not evil, and because if a murderous person is within the community, odds are there will not be a community after a while, there will be a harem and slave labour.

A sense of community and fair rights for the community as a whole.

It is only moral when the community will be bettered by the permanent removal of an individual that undermines said community.

Wrong, it does not improve the community., Wisdom and knowledge leads to better and faster practices. It also allows for those who are incapable of more difficult tasks to help out with more menial tasks allowing for specific tasks with greater yield to produce more for the community. There is no reason to kill an innocent person.

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No it would not, it would deploy learning practises and attribute certain skills to certain tasks. UNskilled people in the wrong position are the fault of the community leader. Therefore the leader should be replaced so the wisdoms from his failures can serve as a lesson.

For who - Pedos? I have a more permanent solution. Small lead ball placed in the left ear.

I would not vote against a death penalty to be reintroduced. Those who take advantage of the sick elderly and young have no place in society, and show they are not going to contribute, but cheat there way through life, nobody wants to be cheated, henceforth they lose their right to be part of a community, exile is not really an option, and we should not have to keep them alive indefinitely.

Those who harm us are not walking the street, last I heard Martin Bryant was rotting away in a jail Cell. Look what happened to Dennis Ferguson when he was released to the community. And not a tear shed for either of them.

Thank you i now have a much clearer understanding of your belief system which is much like my own and contains elements of secular humanism . However it leaves a lot of questions unanswered WHY is commnunity more important than the individual and when, if ever, does an individual count more than the community

What levels) of control can a community reasonably impose on a individual? While we can lock up for life a very few of those among us who cause harm, it is not affordable or practical to do this for all As i said i would be tougher than you. In a theoretical world i would execute everyone who, after some help, still cannot control their emotions enough not to hurt others That would include every man who beat his wife in anger and every woman who harmed their child in anger I would consider alternative treatment for people who are psychiatrically unwell and will respond to treatment It would not include those who commit acts of violence dispassionately, or logically, or legally, where their actions fall within society's needs and are in a sense required to keep society safe eg police military or evn teaching the young to be self disciplined It is the uncontrolled violence, unrestrained by mental control, which is the real danger in a modern society, as several recent deaths in Australia illustrate..

But you have answered the first of my prime questions Your BELIEF, which drives your morality, is very similar to my own .

Humans are dependent on their society for survival and success.

Thus the protection and strengthening of the community (from family, through clan/tribe, to nation state)has a higher priority than the absolute freedom of an individual. In consequence laws must reflect establishing a reasonable balance, which protects the society/community as much as possible, while giving as much individual freedom as possible, only after the first priority is achieved. .

That is a belief We could explore why you hold that particular belief.

Other humans evolve entirely different beliefs such as; that life is about survival of the fittest and that we should shape our society to ensure only the strongest survive This argument says that, in protecting the weak and vulnerable and those who cost society more than they give, and allowing them to breed, we actually weaken our survival chances.

And so here we have the basis, within diverging beliefs, for two very separate religions to grow up, constructing two very different societies.

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Mr Walker

I don't consider that 'tougher', I consider it weaker actually, like most mindless attempts to treat complex problems with simplistic solutions like this. The special powers you've claimed to have could be considered a danger to society, let's hope you are not on the receiving end of this simple solution you think is representative of an 'ideal world'.

ideal world I added that real life is too complex.

You might be right. They are seen as a danger in this world or at least as a threat by many, and that is one reason i have been careful all my life

So what is YOUR solution to stopping people losing emotional control and harming others?

In real life my efforts have included running self esteem and resilience classes and working with adolescent males to improve their life skills and lower frustration levels

it includes many years of teaching growth and human development classes, and exploring human biological/emotional drivers and needs with adolescents, and ten years as a professional student counsellor dealing with the consequences of this behaviour in schools and homes. It has included taking in troubled and violent children and giving them a safe and loving environment, to survive and evolve into safer adults. Most needed a few years, the longest a decade of love, protection and care. I have taken in women and young children escaping the violence of men, and one young teenager escaping a violent mother.

So what can YOU do in this real world to protect the vulnerable from the violent OR reduce the propensity to violence from some

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker

Mhe ..... anyone that knows him (here) aint surprised .... from what he has revealed about himself and his likes , killing people for committing crimes seems a 'logical' extension.

I still want to know how he would kill them ? Perhaps different innovative and creative methods, depending on and suited to the type of crime ?

Sorry i did miss that question . Execution by the most painless method possible. This is not about emotions, like punishment or revenge, but about eliminating those who are a danger to others because they cannot control their impulses.

To me this is more humane than imprisoning a person for life, and to be honest we simply could not afford to imprison hundreds of thousands of people for decades. " it aint going to happen" and real life is more complex than an idealised one but our laws could do MUCH more to protect people from those who cannot, or will not, control their emotional responses and then hurt or kill others. Eventually we will discover a way to genetically/biologically engineer that lack of control out of humans, and it will be done . It won't stop us killing or hurting others, but it will prevent us doing so when we are out of our intellectual control of our actions. So a man might still kill his wife for her life insurance, but won't beat her to death for burning his tea or contradicting him.

After suicide, spousal assault is the most common cause of " non natural' death, in women in Australia. (from what i just read in the newspapers, so it might not be "true")

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Mr Walker

Indeed, I did think it was an eyebrow raising argument of his that God has given him a life of abundance, health, and unending happiness, free of emotions, super powers, as just a little perk of being handpicked by him, and God has given him the mission of sending him out into the world to hog wrangle people to the 'good news' ( chemical control, now) to make sure everyone gets that no one could possibly ever have a better life, or be more moral than Mr. Walker.

Then, he was posting he may have to consider euthanasia ( and he will take the jail time) for his wife in the event her illness progresses to the point she can no longer worship God.

For me, God is about the evidence and in this case it's a NO thanks!

Two complete misrepresentations in one post. You are on a hat trick .

Both positions are an expression of love and compassion for others. First my wife, and second the many people (mostly also women, and children) who are killed and abused by people who don't really want to hurt them but cannot control their emotional impulses.

Ps your opening statement has given me a much clearer idea of why you respond to me as you do. What is wrong with having such a life ? However it imposes a duty and responsibility for such richness and well being to help others have a similar life. I wish we could swap places for a while so you could appreciate the realities of such a life and i could understand you better and know if you are really the person you present as. .

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker

I just don't know why he wouldn't hire a caregiver or use his Australian gold standard medical and get her the best care, if his wife was to get Alzheimer's and couldn't worship God she would never know. In the meantime, he could see to it she had the best care possible.

That would be against the express wishes of my wife. She had 10 years of caring for her parents Caregivers are used and some respite care is available but the entire being of such a person ceases to exist long before theY die if the y are being well cared for. While in respite care in homes both parents were strapped to beds and chemically restrained and still both suffered quite serious injuries due to the lack of one on one care available

But that is not what she wants, while she is still cognitively well.

You suggest i lie to my wife, and once she is "gone,' keep her alive?

Wouldn't that be terribly selfish and also lieing and thus immoral My wife hates lies and liars.

It would be my preferred option, as i would still have "her ' with me and could care for her. I am selfish in that, but she has expressly told me it is not what SHE wants.

It is easy to second guess from outside. What would YOU do sherapy?.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Sherapy

ideal world I added that real life is too complex.

You might be right. They are seen as a danger in this world or at least as a threat by many, and that is one reason i have been careful all my life

So what is YOUR solution to stopping people losing emotional control and harming others?

In real life my efforts have included running self esteem and resilience classes and working with adolescent males to improve their life skills and lower frustration levels

it includes many years of teaching growth and human development classes, and exploring human biological/emotional drivers and needs with adolescents, and ten years as a professional student counsellor dealing with the consequences of this behaviour in schools and homes. It has included taking in troubled and violent children and giving them a safe and loving environment, to survive and evolve into safer adults. Most needed a few years, the longest a decade of love, protection and care. I have taken in women and young children escaping the violence of men, and one young teenager escaping a violent mother.

So what can YOU do in this real world to protect the vulnerable from the violent OR reduce the propensity to violence from some

Wow, now you are a professional student counselor who specializes in protecting kids and woman from violence, yet advocates and mandates a doctrine that a person must hit a child ( a few posts up) or is an amoral and substandard and in need of being put down.

MW, do you see why I struggle with you?

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Sherapy

That would be against the express wishes of my wife. She had 10 years of caring for her parents Caregivers are used and some respite care is available but the entire being of such a person ceases to exist long before theY die if the y are being well cared for. While in respite care in homes both parents were strapped to beds and chemically restrained and still both suffered quite serious injuries due to the lack of one on one care available

But that is not what she wants, while she is still cognitively well.

You suggest i lie to my wife, and once she is "gone,' keep her alive?

Wouldn't that be terribly selfish and also lieing and thus immoral My wife hates lies and liars.

It would be my preferred option, as i would still have "her ' with me and could care for her. I am selfish in that, but she has expressly told me it is not what SHE wants.

It is easy to second guess from outside. What would YOU do sherapy?.

While, would this be an a issue with you when a few posts up you said if you had your way you would chemically restrain society to make them nicer.

MW, I said what I'd do in my post.

It doesn't make sense to me MW under the circumstances- if you didn't have health care and had no way to get it and her care would leave you destitute (but you are rich ) no kids or friends to turn too and would be devastated like my Dad ( emotionally/ but not you, in fact have transcended emotions), (you said you wouldn't even grieve her thanks to how robust your emotions are) then I could understand. But this isn't the case.

What would be your wife's reasons for wanting to die and put that burden, responsibility, and the consequences on you.

It seems her belief in God, now while I understand it comes with hope of heaven and seeing loved ones again how does having Alzheimer's affect this other then she won't remember for a bit, but she will be comfortable and well cared for until her time comes, as you have the means to give her the best.

I think in some cases euthanasia may be the most humane option, but I don't think so in this case.

It's not well thought through.

I would not consent to killing my husband, for me, believing in God is like believing in Bigfoot and I couldn't mentally rectify myself to take his life for these reasons, because it is stupid, for me, the question is where do I draw the line? And, on this faith based situation, I would draw the line and tell my husband to knock it off.

Edited by Sherapy
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Mr Walker

Wow, now you are a professional student counselor who specializes in protecting kids and woman from violence, yet advocates and mandates a doctrine that a person must hit a child ( a few posts up) or is an amoral and substandard and in need of being put down.

MW, do you see why I struggle with you?

No . Both are positions of logic. (if you could see, and express them correctly)

My position on corporal punishment is this. The first duty of a parent, from love, is to educate their child. Such eduction necessitates the teaching of self discipline, this is achieved first via th imposition of external discipline to train the mind into disciplined patterns of thought. and behaviour. Now if, like you, a parent can raise well disciplined kids WITHOUT using any physical control, to teach them how to control their responses, that is fine and commendable (i tend not to believe it is actually possible, as physical restraint is ALWAYS used on young children just to keep them safe)

However, a parent who refuses to teach their child to control their emotional responses is guilty of abuse, and will bring suffering down on that child and his associates when older. Loving corporal punishment is a HIGHLY effective method of instilling self control in humans (even chimps use it)

The second value goes with the first. No society needs to tolerate (nor can it afford to tolerate) those within it who cannot, or will not, control their emotional responses enough to prevent them harming others, The prime role of a society is to protect the individuals with it.

So IDEALLY do you prefer to live in a society where (using the classic example) men abuse, rape, and kill women and children because their biology compels them to, or in one where everyone can control their emotions and crimes are restricted to those done deliberately and wilfully (and thus punishment is much more clear cut and easy to apply)

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker

While, would this be an a issue with you when a few posts up you said if you had your way you would chemically restrain society to make them nicer.

MW, I said what I'd do in my post.

It doesn't make sense to me MW under the circumstances- if you didn't have health care and had no way to get it and her care would leave you destitute (but you are rich ) no kids or friends to turn too and would be devastated like my Dad ( emotionally/ but not you, in fact have transcended emotions), (you said you wouldn't even grieve her thanks to how robust your emotions are) then I could understand. But this isn't the case.

What would be your wife's reasons for wanting to die and put that burden, responsibility, and the consequences on you.

It seems her belief in God, now while I understand it comes with hope of heaven and seeing loved ones again how does having Alzheimer's affect this other then she won't remember for a bit, but she will be comfortable and well cared for until her time comes, as you have the means to give her the best.

I think in some cases euthanasia may be the most humane option, but I don't think so in this case.

It's not well thought through.

I would not consent to killing my husband, for me, believing in God is like believing in Bigfoot and I couldn't mentally rectify myself to take his life for these reasons, because it is stupid, for me, the question is where do I draw the line? And, on this faith based situation, I would draw the line and tell my husband to knock it off.

i guess its understandable, but you conflate two issues Even if she was an atheist, my wife would ask me to let her/help die, because of her experience with her parents. SHE doesn't want to go through that. I believe every adult has a right to decide when and how to end their own life, if they are mentally competent when they make the decision.

i think you believe that her religion is the cause of her decision. It isn't. She fears losing abilty to recognise self loved ones AND god. Being fiercely independent and one whose role has been to care for others, she fears becoming dependent and a burden on others. Watching the deterioration of your mother 24/7 over 10 years, as she loses contact with every element of self and awareness until she cant remember how to chew food when you feed her, alters your POV.

So if your husband asked you today to help him die when he was old and suffering, or if he got altzheimers, you would tell him that no, you would not/ could not do that? Or would you say yes you would, to give him comfort, but then once he was unaware, back out and keep him alive. ? Isn't THAT putting self before him? (this is a viewpoint and is arguable)

If your husband told you he was going to take his own life if pain, or life, got too much, would you prevent him from acting on that decision if he was logical and rational?

Sorry, that is a personal and difficult decision You don't have to answer it. I don't even really know what i would do. But loving someone means respecting their decisions, and not just doing what you want, but what they want . I want to love her and care for her, whatever her condition, but she doesn't want that. .

Hopefully i have 10 to 15 years before it becomes a real issue.

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XenoFish

I just don't know why he wouldn't hire a caregiver or use his Australian gold standard medical and get her the best care, if his wife was to get Alzheimer's and couldn't worship God she would never know. In the meantime, he could see to it she had the best care possible.

You were born into this world with nothing and will leave it with nothing. This includes self awareness. Throughout my life I've attracted those who are mentally imbalanced. Either through a neurodegenerative disease or various level of psyche trauma. For some reason I felt the need to help them. When I was a teen (maybe 15 at the time) one of our neighbor by the name of Alvin was going though Alzheimer. He remembered his wife and kept calling me Thomas (not my name). I'd go over to cut their grass and had to sit and talk to him about WW2 and growing up on the farm. I only learned who that Thomas was his brother that died saving his life in WW2. His wife told me after he died, when she showed me his picture it was creepy. I look almost exactly like him.

The second incident was at the hospital when an elderly lady was fighting the doctors and nurses. She kept calling out for her daddy (I kinda cried about this), she grabbed me and held me close. Told me "Daddy these people won't leave me alone." I calmed her down told her they were trying to help her feel better (never knew why she was really in there). Got back to bed and they sedated her. I apologized to her family because I felt really awkward about it. They thanked me. No one had been able to calm her down.

I can't understand why people want to mistreat our elders. My own grandfather is in a veterans home with dementia and paranoia. I can't get around him because he want's to kill me. Yet I feel deeply saddened by this. I question "will this be me one day?" because I am honestly afraid I could hurt my family. I don't want that. Through all these things I do not see god at work. Just people with compassion. I wonder if I'm a good man for what I've done. Some have said I am, I don't see it, maybe that's a good thing. Then I might get high and might with it. That would be self serving, which is not cool.

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Only_

You must be speaking about why you are not an athesiest then , 'got God' in a foxhole did you ?     because, of course, no way toy can speak for how others handle their issues in life.

Intersing theory if you trying to say this relates to others .... I had no idea atheists never had to meet challengs ( if they did , it would have already dissolved, according to you ... into thin air .... just like that ! )

Shall we ask them about that ?

Most atheists recant on their deathbeds. This is a fact. There are no atheists in foxholes. Religious scientism can only take one so far. So it's accurate to say that atheism doesn't actually exists in any meaningful way. It's not a sustainable worldview.

http://www.strangenotions.com/flew/

Edited by TaridD

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Mr Walker

You were born into this world with nothing and will leave it with nothing. This includes self awareness. Throughout my life I've attracted those who are mentally imbalanced. Either through a neurodegenerative disease or various level of psyche trauma. For some reason I felt the need to help them. When I was a teen (maybe 15 at the time) one of our neighbor by the name of Alvin was going though Alzheimer. He remembered his wife and kept calling me Thomas (not my name). I'd go over to cut their grass and had to sit and talk to him about WW2 and growing up on the farm. I only learned who that Thomas was his brother that died saving his life in WW2. His wife told me after he died, when she showed me his picture it was creepy. I look almost exactly like him.

The second incident was at the hospital when an elderly lady was fighting the doctors and nurses. She kept calling out for her daddy (I kinda cried about this), she grabbed me and held me close. Told me "Daddy these people won't leave me alone." I calmed her down told her they were trying to help her feel better (never knew why she was really in there). Got back to bed and they sedated her. I apologized to her family because I felt really awkward about it. They thanked me. No one had been able to calm her down.

I can't understand why people want to mistreat our elders. My own grandfather is in a veterans home with dementia and paranoia. I can't get around him because he want's to kill me. Yet I feel deeply saddened by this. I question "will this be me one day?" because I am honestly afraid I could hurt my family. I don't want that. Through all these things I do not see god at work. Just people with compassion. I wonder if I'm a good man for what I've done. Some have said I am, I don't see it, maybe that's a good thing. Then I might get high and might with it. That would be self serving, which is not cool.

You see why i get upset at Sherapy completely misrepresenting me. Now you have fallen into her dialogue about 'mistreatment'

(sorry your comments might not have any direction at me. I might just be being over sensitive. ) i agree that many elderly are mistreated, even abused and robbed by their children. Even in expensive homes for the aged they are often NOT given the respect and care they deserve. although, hopefully, with govt oversight this is improving

As i said we cared full time for my wife's parents for 6 and 10 years until death They got full time loving care except for a couple of weeks each year where they went into respite care and came out battered and bruised, At the same time we were caring for a teenage couple with two young children in our home and i was working about 10 hours a day teaching and going back to school for marking and preparation. I would get to bed about 2 am and get up again at 7

Everyone said how wonderful we were, and "how could we do it" Our response was "how could we not?" We are not good for doing it.

It is part of duty and responsibilty as children to our parents, and lastly that we gained back from the experience more than we could ever have expended I was rarely more fulfilled, happy and energised than during this time.

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Sherapy

You were born into this world with nothing and will leave it with nothing. This includes self awareness. Throughout my life I've attracted those who are mentally imbalanced. Either through a neurodegenerative disease or various level of psyche trauma. For some reason I felt the need to help them. When I was a teen (maybe 15 at the time) one of our neighbor by the name of Alvin was going though Alzheimer. He remembered his wife and kept calling me Thomas (not my name). I'd go over to cut their grass and had to sit and talk to him about WW2 and growing up on the farm. I only learned who that Thomas was his brother that died saving his life in WW2. His wife told me after he died, when she showed me his picture it was creepy. I look almost exactly like him.

The second incident was at the hospital when an elderly lady was fighting the doctors and nurses. She kept calling out for her daddy (I kinda cried about this), she grabbed me and held me close. Told me "Daddy these people won't leave me alone." I calmed her down told her they were trying to help her feel better (never knew why she was really in there). Got back to bed and they sedated her. I apologized to her family because I felt really awkward about it. They thanked me. No one had been able to calm her down.

I can't understand why people want to mistreat our elders. My own grandfather is in a veterans home with dementia and paranoia. I can't get around him because he want's to kill me. Yet I feel deeply saddened by this. I question "will this be me one day?" because I am honestly afraid I could hurt my family. I don't want that. Through all these things I do not see god at work. Just people with compassion. I wonder if I'm a good man for what I've done. Some have said I am, I don't see it, maybe that's a good thing. Then I might get high and might with it. That would be self serving, which is not cool.

Very touching experiences, thank you for sharing X!

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Sherapy

i guess its understandable, but you conflate two issues Even if she was an atheist, my wife would ask me to let her/help die, because of her experience with her parents. SHE doesn't want to go through that. I believe every adult has a right to decide when and how to end their own life, if they are mentally competent when they make the decision.

i think you believe that her religion is the cause of her decision. It isn't. She fears losing abilty to recognise self loved ones AND god. Being fiercely independent and one whose role has been to care for others, she fears becoming dependent and a burden on others. Watching the deterioration of your mother 24/7 over 10 years, as she loses contact with every element of self and awareness until she cant remember how to chew food when you feed her, alters your POV.

So if your husband asked you today to help him die when he was old and suffering, or if he got altzheimers, you would tell him that no, you would not/ could not do that? Or would you say yes you would, to give him comfort, but then once he was unaware, back out and keep him alive. ? Isn't THAT putting self before him? (this is a viewpoint and is arguable)

If your husband told you he was going to take his own life if pain, or life, got too much, would you prevent him from acting on that decision if he was logical and rational?

Sorry, that is a personal and difficult decision You don't have to answer it. I don't even really know what i would do. But loving someone means respecting their decisions, and not just doing what you want, but what they want . I want to love her and care for her, whatever her condition, but she doesn't want that. .

Hopefully i have 10 to 15 years before it becomes a real issue.

No, I would not kill my husband for any reason. And, I don't have issue saying no either; I do not see myself as less loving or compassionate. Life can be hard at times and for you this will be one of those times, you have your faith turn to that, that is what you should be telling your wife.

If my hubby was threatening to kill himself or wanting to do this, I would understand it as him venting the frustrations and fears he had surrounding the situation. It is common to react like this at first.

I would be looking for support groups and therapy for constructive advice.

Worst case, Your wife can go into a home to avoid being a burden, she will be none the wiser.

My uncle had Alzheimer's he had 6 months in a home before he died, my aunt was by his side for the 7 years he had it and took care of him it was his 3rd wife too, she was amazing to and for him, he never knew a thing at the end, and was comfortable and well cared for. Not a day goes by we don't all miss him, and we never considered killing him.

Edited by Sherapy
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xYlvax

Thank "god" I'm a spiritualist.

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