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Emmisal

The God Debate - Is it really about evidence?

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Sherapy

You see why i get upset at Sherapy completely misrepresenting me. Now you have fallen into her dialogue about 'mistreatment'

(sorry your comments might not have any direction at me. I might just be being over sensitive. ) i agree that many elderly are mistreated, even abused and robbed by their children. Even in expensive homes for the aged they are often NOT given the respect and care they deserve. although, hopefully, with govt oversight this is improving

As i said we cared full time for my wife's parents for 6 and 10 years until death They got full time loving care except for a couple of weeks each year where they went into respite care and came out battered and bruised, At the same time we were caring for a teenage couple with two young children in our home and i was working about 10 hours a day teaching and going back to school for marking and preparation. I would get to bed about 2 am and get up again at 7

Everyone said how wonderful we were, and "how could we do it" Our response was "how could we not?" We are not good for doing it.

It is part of duty and responsibilty as children to our parents, and lastly that we gained back from the experience more than we could ever have expended I was rarely more fulfilled, happy and energised than during this time.

X is sharing his views and he has shared why and it has nothing to do with you.

Well we agree on one thing MW, I would not think you or I were anything special for caring for your in laws or my life ( your wife was stay at home, never worked ). I know a busy life and think it is absurd to commend me for it, I should be giving my all, I love it. My husband says he has it easy getting to go work every day. :)

As a mom this was my schedule for years, still is, I often go on 5 hours of sleep and I tutor too on top of a full- time wife, home school educator, help my kids and their firiends with homework for years essays, study for tests, projects on a moments notice, and I take college courses too. I am on FaceTime or Skype regularly helping kids with Math or whatever. I run for 3 miles at night on my treadmill it's the time I have. I am on break till Feb. and am getting ready to go to Florida to spend time with my Dad and Granny as both struggle through this time of year after the loss of my mom. And my son and tutees are all getting ready for finals, but I have a window from the 22nd to Feb 2nd. And I am getting ready to send off my middle son to university on scholarship he leaves Thursday.

Every mom I know has a full life, we don't think anyone is special for it. :)

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Hammerclaw

X is sharing his views and he has shared why and it has nothing to do with you.

Well we agree on one thing MW, I would not think you or I were anything special for caring for your in laws or my life ( your wife was stay at home, never worked ). I know a busy life and think it is absurd to commend me for it, I should be giving my all, I love it. My husband says he has it easy getting to go work every day. :)

As a mom this was my schedule for years, still is, I often go on 5 hours of sleep and I tutor too on top of a full- time wife, home school educator, help my kids and their firiends with homework for years essays, study for tests, projects on a moments notice, and I take college courses too. I am on FaceTime or Skype regularly helping kids with Math or whatever. I run for 3 miles at night on my treadmill it's the time I have. I am on break till Feb. and am getting ready to go to Florida to spend time with my Dad and Granny as both struggle through this time of year after the loss of my mom. And my son and tutees are all getting ready for finals, but I have a window from the 22nd to Feb 2nd. And I am getting ready to send off my middle son to university on scholarship he leaves Thursday.

Every mom I know has a full life, we don't think anyone is special for it. :)

That was the most civil exchange I've read between you two! It was interesting, too. It's nice when people talk to each other instead of at each other. Good for you both! :yes:
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Mr Walker

X is sharing his views and he has shared why and it has nothing to do with you.

Well we agree on one thing MW, I would not think you or I were anything special for caring for your in laws or my life ( your wife was stay at home, never worked ). I know a busy life and think it is absurd to commend me for it, I should be giving my all, I love it. My husband says he has it easy getting to go work every day. :)

As a mom this was my schedule for years, still is, I often go on 5 hours of sleep and I tutor too on top of a full- time wife, home school educator, help my kids and their firiends with homework for years essays, study for tests, projects on a moments notice, and I take college courses too. I am on FaceTime or Skype regularly helping kids with Math or whatever. I run for 3 miles at night on my treadmill it's the time I have. I am on break till Feb. and am getting ready to go to Florida to spend time with my Dad and Granny as both struggle through this time of year after the loss of my mom. And my son and tutees are all getting ready for finals, but I have a window from the 22nd to Feb 2nd. And I am getting ready to send off my middle son to university on scholarship he leaves Thursday.

Every mom I know has a full life, we don't think anyone is special for it. :)

LOL

( your wife was stay at home, never worked ).

I know what you mean, but NEVER say that to my wife She works longer hours and harder than most "working women" i know. You mean she gave up paid work when we got married so that a single woman could have the job (because i earned enough to support us both ) She worked from age 15 to age 34 (when we married) to support herself, in offices in Perth Sydney and Melbourne as a ledger machinist keeping accounts .

It was probably me they meant, being it wasn't my parents and I was already working long days.

Very few people seemed to accept that caring full time for aged parents with altzheimers , along with a couple of teenage parents, and their young kids, was just normal.

As iv'e said before, most of our marred lives we have been caring for, from one to 4, troubled teens, and so she also was a mother, with all those responsibilities you are aware of. If she had also worked outside the house, either we could not have done all we did for others, or our house would not have been the well run machine that it was. ( for example it is always spotlessly clean neat and tidy it is filled with antique furniture works of art and decorative glass and ceramics (notihng really valuable since the fire but so well arranged etc tha t everyone comments on it. And there are always fresh cut flowers in th main rooms, She is 74 now and still works hard, for long hours, although she is slowing down a bit as bad arthritis takes its toll. My wife turns a house into a true home for all who live here.

I don.t distinguish between outside paid work and house work, given that to me both are equally hard and demanding and equally valuable . I couldn't always do as much sustained physical work as my wife could because my life was a lot more sedentary in nature.

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back to earth

An ad. from project gutenberg? if you mean a narcissist i have responded in detail to such views, illustrating logically and evidentially why i cannot be a narcissist. Have you noticed i have not responded in kind, even though it would be interesting to get a reading on your own personality type

Mate .... you are really loosing the plot now !

If you bothered to use that link , you would see it is to a free book ! , it isnt an add . Its to Plato's 'Gorgias' , a relatively short read on the nature of 'debate' , discussion and political philosophy.

The reason I suggested this book was directly in response to the question from you that immediately preceded my answer .

That is how things usually go in a conversation .

I dont mean a narcissist ... where the hell did that come from ? ! So your little comments about how you proved you were not ... well fine, good for you! .... but total segway there dude , total !

Then something about if I noticed how you didnt respond in kind ... what ?! and get a reading on my personality type ???? what ?

You obviously, once again are not with me, nor following the conversation ........ from a question you asked and I gave one simple response !

Now segway into confusion :td: ,

Look, you duffer ! I said I was not going to do this with you any more ( - rehash the conversation and re-run it so you can follow the lineal thread ) ... , but here goes anyway

... pay attention ....

* You asked why people respond the certain way they do in discussions here .

* I gave you a link to Plato's Gorgias as that is a big part of what that book is about ... I even assumed you would know that, and just see the title and think :Oh yes, thats right , the answer is in here .

* I suggested you see which character you are, as we had a previous conversation, similar to this where I said you seemed to have the view like Callicies ( in Gorgias) ... remember ? I guess not, as then I also got a weird reply from you.

Get it now ?

There is no ad ( well there wasnt when I clicked on it, is a book the from the Gutenburg free book project ) , there is no reference to narcissism and as far as , what character I would be in the book (not personality type ) ... that is an interesting question !

(However I have revealed previously, very clearly to you, what I do consider my role is in all this ..... remember ???? but not from Gorgias, from another 'scenario' I am 'Rodger' ...... yeah ?

... you dont remember that conversation either ??? .... jeeze, and I thought I was the one getting older and loosing my memory !

Walker !

uh58302,1259770105,Smiley_ShakeFist.gif

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Stubbly_Dooright

While, would this be an a issue with you when a few posts up you said if you had your way you would chemically restrain society to make them nicer.

MW, I said what I'd do in my post.

It doesn't make sense to me MW under the circumstances- if you didn't have health care and had no way to get it and her care would leave you destitute (but you are rich ) no kids or friends to turn too and would be devastated like my Dad ( emotionally/ but not you, in fact have transcended emotions), (you said you wouldn't even grieve her thanks to how robust your emotions are) then I could understand. But this isn't the case.

What would be your wife's reasons for wanting to die and put that burden, responsibility, and the consequences on you.

It seems her belief in God, now while I understand it comes with hope of heaven and seeing loved ones again how does having Alzheimer's affect this other then she won't remember for a bit, but she will be comfortable and well cared for until her time comes, as you have the means to give her the best.

I think in some cases euthanasia may be the most humane option, but I don't think so in this case.

It's not well thought through.

I would not consent to killing my husband, for me, believing in God is like believing in Bigfoot and I couldn't mentally rectify myself to take his life for these reasons, because it is stupid, for me, the question is where do I draw the line? And, on this faith based situation, I would draw the line and tell my husband to knock it off.

I have been trying to keep up with this thread. While I'm at work, I only have my breaktimes on my Iphone on this mobile site. Sometimes it's frustrating having to wait to come home to do full multiple paragraphs. I have to just like the posts, and maybe some short answers on some people.

Anyhow, it's interesting the discussion has come to those who are in a coma, or have deteriorated to the point that one is helpless I would wonder, how does one 'believe' if one did that before.

As for their condition and their loved ones, it reminds me, that I wonder if I should update my living will. Down in Jersey eons ago, I didn't get to doing my other will, ( went to see some JAGS during the time ), but I did do a living will. ( Yeah, I have one *shrugs* ) And I remember saying to the JAGS, that when I'm in such a condition, is to not pull the plug. My feeling is, that maybe my family would have hope and want me to stay. I always had felt and told them that technology and medicine is always advancing, and that who knows, there might something to help me.

The thing, I now want to change that, and have it pull the plug, so my family wouldn't have to take care of me, and move on. This conversation has had me thinking of this as of late. I wonder, if my belief has me thinking of this change too.

But even then, a recent situation, ( as you know. :yes: ) when I was laid up with my herniated disk, my hubby was a true angel. He was there caring for me through it all. (I know I would do the same, but him doing that, :wub: ) And of all the thank you's I gave him, he said, "Well it is 'in sickness and health'?

Right he is!

Most atheists recant on their deathbeds. This is a fact. There are no atheists in foxholes. Religious scientism can only take one so far. So it's accurate to say that atheism doesn't actually exists in any meaningful way. It's not a sustainable worldview.

http://www.strangenotions.com/flew/

Well, I think others here have proven to you, that there are a lot of Atheists in foxholes. And do you have back up proof for your 'fact' that most Atheists recant on their deathbeds. I don't know about you, but your link only talks about one.
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back to earth

Sorry i did miss that question . Execution by the most painless method possible. This is not about emotions, like punishment or revenge, but about eliminating those who are a danger to others because they cannot control their impulses.

and you cant think of a way to achieve this 'removal' ( thats the key of what it is, isnt it ... " eliminating those who are a danger to others " ? ) without killing them ?

Come on man, be a bit more creative ! KIlling people (corporal punishment in the extreme ) isnt the simple answer.

To me this is more humane than imprisoning a person for life, and to be honest we simply could not afford to imprison hundreds of thousands of people for decades. " it aint going to happen" and real life is more complex than an idealised one but our laws could do MUCH more to protect people from those who cannot, or will not, control their emotional responses and then hurt or kill others

Good! There you go ! For a start do MUCH more with our laws ... before we rush straight into executions.

. Eventually we will discover a way to genetically/biologically engineer that lack of control out of humans, and it will be done . It won't stop us killing or hurting others, but it will prevent us doing so when we are out of our intellectual control of our actions. So a man might still kill his wife for her life insurance, but won't beat her to death for burning his tea or contradicting him.

Thankfully, at my age I will long dead before we have these wonderful future genetic/biologic engineering that , although it stops a man beating his wife to death for burning his tea or contradicting him, it wont stop him doing it for money .

After suicide, spousal assault is the most common cause of " non natural' death, in women in Australia. (from what i just read in the newspapers, so it might not be "true")

Hey ! I just got this great idea ! How about we do everything we can and more to stop the wives being killed NOW * instead of planning how we kill kill the men in the future after they kill their wives ? ! :w00t:

* One can start on that right now by addressing many of the old fashioned, outworn, and primate primitive , psychological conditions, 'morals' , rulership / ownership concepts, lack of appropriate modern psychological identity that plague men of today ..... and work out what their new dynamic relationship is. Find what is required, and act on it. In the self and in our dealings with other men.

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Sherapy

LOL

( your wife was stay at home, never worked ).

I know what you mean, but NEVER say that to my wife She works longer hours and harder than most "working women" i know. You mean she gave up paid work when we got married so that a single woman could have the job (because i earned enough to support us both ) She worked from age 15 to age 34 (when we married) to support herself, in offices in Perth Sydney and Melbourne as a ledger machinist keeping accounts .

It was probably me they meant, being it wasn't my parents and I was already working long days.

Very few people seemed to accept that caring full time for aged parents with altzheimers , along with a couple of teenage parents, and their young kids, was just normal.

As iv'e said before, most of our marred lives we have been caring for, from one to 4, troubled teens, and so she also was a mother, with all those responsibilities you are aware of. If she had also worked outside the house, either we could not have done all we did for others, or our house would not have been the well run machine that it was. ( for example it is always spotlessly clean neat and tidy it is filled with antique furniture works of art and decorative glass and ceramics (notihng really valuable since the fire but so well arranged etc tha t everyone comments on it. And there are always fresh cut flowers in th main rooms, She is 74 now and still works hard, for long hours, although she is slowing down a bit as bad arthritis takes its toll. My wife turns a house into a true home for all who live here.

I don.t distinguish between outside paid work and house work, given that to me both are equally hard and demanding and equally valuable . I couldn't always do as much sustained physical work as my wife could because my life was a lot more sedentary in nature.

Hands down your wife is a saint, you are a very lucky man to have her, I hope you know how blessed you are ( other then silly talk of euthanizing her ). You would be a mess and lost without her, I don't care what you say. You don't hold a candle to her on any level, you need her and if she gets sick you be by her side, she derserves the same she has given you, you assure her you will rise to the occasion, then your life will really have purpose you seek (besides reading books and gardening), when you are truly there for someone unconditionally it will be your greatest reward. And don't get all offended and defensive, try and listen for once. For what ever this is worth

Your Mrs. gave her life to be of service to you and many others, she has been a great inspiration for you to aspire too, and I highly doubt she feels her life has been anything but a great honor.

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back to earth

Two complete misrepresentations in one post. You are on a hat trick .

...... I wish we could swap places for a while so you could appreciate the realities of such a life and i could understand you better and know if you are really the person you present as. .

I certainly hope you dont mean swap bodies !

Thats creeping me out dude ! :unsure2:

otherwise , what ? Sherapy comes over here and lives with Mrs Walker as her husband ... and you go over to .....

wait ! ... maybe she better discuss that with her husband first !

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back to earth

Most atheists recant on their deathbeds. This is a fact.

tumblr_mofiyk7Rdm1suadn1o1_400.gif

Danger Will Robinson , danger !

False data - false data !

There are no atheists in foxholes. Religious scientism can only take one so far. So it's accurate to say that atheism doesn't actually exists in any meaningful way. It's not a sustainable worldview.

http://www.strangenotions.com/flew/

tumblr_m35qt1utGo1qzfqayo1_500.gif

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Sherapy

I have been trying to keep up with this thread. While I'm at work, I only have my breaktimes on my Iphone on this mobile site. Sometimes it's frustrating having to wait to come home to do full multiple paragraphs. I have to just like the posts, and maybe some short answers on some people.

Anyhow, it's interesting the discussion has come to those who are in a coma, or have deteriorated to the point that one is helpless I would wonder, how does one 'believe' if one did that before.

As for their condition and their loved ones, it reminds me, that I wonder if I should update my living will. Down in Jersey eons ago, I didn't get to doing my other will, ( went to see some JAGS during the time ), but I did do a living will. ( Yeah, I have one *shrugs* ) And I remember saying to the JAGS, that when I'm in such a condition, is to not pull the plug. My feeling is, that maybe my family would have hope and want me to stay. I always had felt and told them that technology and medicine is always advancing, and that who knows, there might something to help me.

The thing, I now want to change that, and have it pull the plug, so my family wouldn't have to take care of me, and move on. This conversation has had me thinking of this as of late. I wonder, if my belief has me thinking of this change too.

But even then, a recent situation, ( as you know. :yes: ) when I was laid up with my herniated disk, my hubby was a true angel. He was there caring for me through it all. (I know I would do the same, but him doing that, :wub: ) And of all the thank you's I gave him, he said, "Well it is 'in sickness and health'?

Right he is!

Well, I think others here have proven to you, that there are a lot of Atheists in foxholes. And do you have back up proof for your 'fact' that most Atheists recant on their deathbeds. I don't know about you, but your link only talks about one.

Yes, Sharon I think what we forget is a lot of hours of being there for our kids, (moms don't take days off, not even on vacation). That our hubby's watch us and some moms work too on top of all the other things they do, and we never ask for much and my hubby deserves his chance to be there for me because as you know we would not trade one moment of one second of the great honor of being their for others unconditionally,( and you know what I mean) it is a reward all in itself to be needed. You keep your will as is mama's.

I have a story, when I owned my hair salon there was a client who brought his wife in every friday she had had a stroke which left her brain damaged and In a wheel chair, this man lovingly cared for her, it was admirable. She was once up a time an artist and the only person who pushed him when he was a pathetic drunk, he said he was alive because of she didn't take his crap and stood by him and taught him waht it meant to love himslef he said it was an honor to be there for her. I think too often what looks like such a tragedy on the outside to the rest of us is an oppourtunity to be incondtional for another, and I know what this is like being mom it is a gift.

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Sherapy

That was the most civil exchange I've read between you two! It was interesting, too. It's nice when people talk to each other instead of at each other. Good for you both! :yes:

Thanks hammer for the feedback, I appreciate it and will take it too heart.

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Liquid Gardens

ideal world I added that real life is too complex.

Okay, but I made an assumption that in your toughness pose that you were actually saying something that wasn't just tautological. Actually no, in an 'ideal world' people wouldn't harm each other at all and would have no cause to, the end. How many times is a person allowed to demonstrate an ability to not control their behaviors before they require locking away or execution in Walkervania? Do we take into account the age of the criminal at the time they are a danger? How do you determine whether someone will be a danger in the future? Isn't the answer to all of this similar to the complex process of legislation and applicability of the justice system to perpetrators that already exists?

I think what you're saying is that in certain specific cases you are aware of that you would have been tougher, I think almost everyone can say that, and for the reverse condition. At some level most everyone would probably say, 'in an ideal world perpetrators would get exactly what they deserve according to my idea of justice and punishment', which may be part of what you were saying, fair enough for you to point out despite it being tautological. What I don't understand is where 'toughness' enters into the equation at all.

You might be right. They are seen as a danger in this world or at least as a threat by many, and that is one reason i have been careful all my life

I'm sure you already know that I'm of the opinion that not demonstrating your powers that you 'know' you have to appropriate scientists for study is horribly irresponsible, you potentially endanger yourself and other people. On this subject, maybe we could use your precognitive powers to help identify and detain criminals before they commit their violent crime.

So what is YOUR solution to stopping people losing emotional control and harming others?

Wait, why are you emphasizing 'your', you make it sound like you've already provided a solution of your own? The solution you provided, "I'm tougher than you", was for an ideal world, not the real one; see the first line in your response. I don't have a solution any more than I have a solution for preventing the sun from eventually exploding, I think you can only work on specific causes of crime of which there are many, like as you mention helping people who are in a bad way and assisting the mentally ill.

Note that your closing sentences concerning how you have conducted these types of nice, beneficial, nurturing activities for at-risk people is about the exact opposite in tenor from what I quoted from you, where we are 'executing or locking away EVERY person' who hasn't controlled themselves; that nurturing comes to an abrupt and 'tough' stop apparently in your ideal world.

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Grandpa Greenman

Most atheists recant on their deathbeds. This is a fact. There are no atheists in foxholes. Religious scientism can only take one so far. So it's accurate to say that atheism doesn't actually exists in any meaningful way. It's not a sustainable worldview.

http://www.strangenotions.com/flew/

My father didn't recant his atheism on his deathbed. He was a WWII vet and I ask him if he had prayed in his foxhole, he said, "Hell no, I was too busy trying to stay alive for that nonsense." To call something a fact you have to proof it is true. One atheist is hardly most.

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Stubbly_Dooright

Who is to say, what is a danger to others? I see no specifics of what constitutes danger to others. Who has the right to be the judge of that?

I feel, when one feels that way, is someone who has no desire to be outside of themselves and actually understands and cares about others.

Frankly, I think of those who feel they have a right and think they know what is danger and who does it, is someone on the precipace of being a tyrant.

Well, I think we all know what happens and how we feel about tyrants and the ramifications of that? ;)

Yes, Sharon I think what we forget is a lot of hours of being there for our kids, (moms don't take days off, not even on vacation). That our hubby's watch us and some moms work too on top of all the other things they do, and we never ask for much and my hubby deserves his chance to be there for me because as you know we would not trade one moment of one second of the great honor of being their for others unconditionally,( and you know what I mean) it is a reward all in itself to be needed. You keep your will as is mama's.

I have a story, when I owned my hair salon there was a client who brought his wife in every friday she had had a stroke which left her brain damaged and In a wheel chair, this man lovingly cared for her, it was admirable. She was once up a time an artist and the only person who pushed him when he was a pathetic drunk, he said he was alive because of she didn't take his crap and stood by him and taught him waht it meant to love himslef he said it was an honor to be there for her. I think too often what looks like such a tragedy on the outside to the rest of us is an oppourtunity to be incondtional for another, and I know what this is like being mom it is a gift.

There is a couple, where I work, who are regulars, and it's like what you are describing. And if what I'm told about him, he is not in the best of health, yet helps his wife with everything, (she cannot walk without help of walkers or wheelchairs.)

They are such a beautiful couple that inspires me. I make sure I hug them both, every time I see them. :)

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Mr Walker

Mate .... you are really loosing the plot now !

If you bothered to use that link , you would see it is to a free book ! , it isnt an add . Its to Plato's 'Gorgias' , a relatively short read on the nature of 'debate' , discussion and political philosophy.

The reason I suggested this book was directly in response to the question from you that immediately preceded my answer .

That is how things usually go in a conversation .

I dont mean a narcissist ... where the hell did that come from ? ! So your little comments about how you proved you were not ... well fine, good for you! .... but total segway there dude , total !

Then something about if I noticed how you didnt respond in kind ... what ?! and get a reading on my personality type ???? what ?

You obviously, once again are not with me, nor following the conversation ........ from a question you asked and I gave one simple response !

Now segway into confusion :td: ,

Look, you duffer ! I said I was not going to do this with you any more ( - rehash the conversation and re-run it so you can follow the lineal thread ) ... , but here goes anyway

... pay attention ....

* You asked why people respond the certain way they do in discussions here .

* I gave you a link to Plato's Gorgias as that is a big part of what that book is about ... I even assumed you would know that, and just see the title and think :Oh yes, thats right , the answer is in here .

* I suggested you see which character you are, as we had a previous conversation, similar to this where I said you seemed to have the view like Callicies ( in Gorgias) ... remember ? I guess not, as then I also got a weird reply from you.

Get it now ?

There is no ad ( well there wasnt when I clicked on it, is a book the from the Gutenburg free book project ) , there is no reference to narcissism and as far as , what character I would be in the book (not personality type ) ... that is an interesting question !

(However I have revealed previously, very clearly to you, what I do consider my role is in all this ..... remember ???? but not from Gorgias, from another 'scenario' I am 'Rodger' ...... yeah ?

... you dont remember that conversation either ??? .... jeeze, and I thought I was the one getting older and loosing my memory !

Walker !

uh58302,1259770105,Smiley_ShakeFist.gif

Next time provide a direct link I couldn't easily see or find the next link you were speaking of, as there seemed to be MANY books on many topics

A number of posters have suggested i fit into a narcissistic personality type, but i don't

So

You need to spell out what you expect me to look for.

Even if I'd made the link, I wouldn't have understood your intent.

I did a number of years of philosophy under one of the greats of Australian philosophy Brian Medlin and other competent lecturers and tutors. That included classical and modern philosophical studies.

You might not agree with, or accept, my philosophical thinking, or logic, but it is sound. (based on the assessment of academic experts when I was a student) That happens. Medlin was a great opponent of the Vietnam war while i was a supporter of it, despite using the same tools of logic he employed. Our underlying values beliefs and priorities were different, and thus the same application of logic and philosophy led us to opposing conclusions.

And no, i have no recollection of any such philosophical conversation with you. But then i miss a lot of your posts, because I have to unblock each one individually, i usually only reply because i have seen your comments reposted in other posts but sometimes curiosity drives me on.

if you got a weird reply it was because you were not clear (to me) and i replied to what i THOUGHT you were talking about. That is very common as you seem to live in a different world from mine (or vice versa) .

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
name='Liquid Gardens' timestamp='1452349866' post='5738779
Okay, but I made an assumption that in your toughness pose that you were actually saying something that wasn't just tautological. Actually no, in an 'ideal world' people wouldn't harm each other at all and would have no cause to, the end. How many times is a person allowed to demonstrate an ability to not control their behaviors before they require locking away or execution in Walkervania? Do we take into account the age of the criminal at the time they are a danger? How do you determine whether someone will be a danger in the future? Isn't the answer to all of this similar to the complex process of legislation and applicability of the justice system to perpetrators that already exists?

More than once but dependent on the law and social expectations. Yes age and mental fitness would be taken into account But ANYONE who CANNOT control their behaviour should have restrictions placed on their liberty from minor to major restrictions (as we do with children and the elderly incompetent.

You don't predict future behaviour, you judge past behaviour A person who demonstrates lack of self control MAY or may not offend again, but has demonstrated a high risk . But you act on actual behaviour.

Yes it is similar but the aim and methods are based on tougher expectations of how people can behave and make less excuses for those behaviours The law is evolving in this way We no longer excuse murder when it is a crime of passion and we no longer allow a defence that someone was too drunk or drugged to be able to form a intent to do harm One is expected to take responsibility for their behaviour more than in the past because we know we can.

I think what you're saying is that in certain specific cases you are aware of that you would have been tougher, I think almost everyone can say that, and for the reverse condition. At some level most everyone would probably say, 'in an ideal world perpetrators would get exactly what they deserve according to my idea of justice and punishment', which may be part of what you were saying, fair enough for you to point out despite it being tautological. What I don't understand is where 'toughness' enters into the equation at all.

Toughness is just a label. I could use harsher or stronger. I mean that in my mind the law has the prime purpose of protecting the innocent and the vulnerable. Thus anyone who breaks the law especially with the intent of doing some form of harm or indeed in a way which causes harm through loss of control , needs to be dealt with in a way which prevents them ever doing so again Once we know a person is CAPABLE of murder abuse theft etc we treat them differently to someone who has never demonstrated those potentials. The aim of the law and its procedures should be to prevent one person from deliberately harming another but also to control people who cannot control themselves. If that turns out to be a third of the population then in this ideal world so be it, that third are removed from society so they cannot do harm.

I'm sure you already know that I'm of the opinion that not demonstrating your powers that you 'know' you have to appropriate scientists for study is horribly irresponsible, you potentially endanger yourself and other people. On this subject, maybe we could use your precognitive powers to help identify and detain criminals before they commit their violent crime.

There are plenty of scientific ways to do this including through genetics and l psychological reviews But again I would not punish or restrict the liberty of a person until they had demonstrated the abilty to harm another. Not all men with an extra chromosome become violent serial killers, even though many do. The future is how we shape it through our choices No one is inevitably going to act in a certain way and no individual behaviour is predictable, only potentials.

Wait, why are you emphasizing 'your', you make it sound like you've already provided a solution of your own? The solution you provided, "I'm tougher than you", was for an ideal world, not the real one; see the first line in your response. I don't have a solution any more than I have a solution for preventing the sun from eventually exploding, I think you can only work on specific causes of crime of which there are many, like as you mention helping people who are in a bad way and assisting the mentally ill.

Because lots of people criticise other peoples' ideas ,without providing any of their own. At least you are doing so.

Note that your closing sentences concerning how you have conducted these types of nice, beneficial, nurturing activities for at-risk people is about the exact opposite in tenor from what I quoted from you, where we are 'executing or locking away EVERY person' who hasn't controlled themselves; that nurturing comes to an abrupt and 'tough' stop apparently in your ideal world.

i live and act in a less than ideal world. In the ideal world these victims of family abuse, violence etc., would not exist because the y would not have been harmed as young children. My philosophy as stated in the beginning is that we protect the innocent and vulnerable by constructing mechanisms which restrict either conscious or uncontrolled predation violence abuse etc.

i must admit that a lifetime of working with (and taking in )such wounded people and also mixing with some of the predators of the adolescent world, has shaped my views into what they are. The strong need no protection or laws but the vulnerable and weak cannot live without them

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back to earth

Next time provide a direct link I couldn't easily see or find the next link you were speaking of, as there seemed to be MANY books on many topics

Well, when I click on it the book comes straight up on the page with the title and author and then launches straight into the text. Are you sure you really looked ??? You claimed it was a subscription before ???

Curious

:whistle:

A number of posters have suggested i fit into a narcissistic personality type, but i don't

So

You need to spell out what you expect me to look for.

Even if I'd made the link, I wouldn't have understood your intent.

You are so obstinately hard to communicate with !

You asked a question .... I gave you the answer in a text .

- Its like if I asked ' what is a ' drawer dovetail joint' ? And you referred me to a woodwork manual .

... is this all to much for you ?

3u6shz.jpg

I did a number of years of philosophy under one of the greats of Australian philosophy Brian Medlin and other competent lecturers and tutors. That included classical and modern philosophical studies.

yes, so you keep claiming, hence you should have known what I was referring to !

You might not agree with, or accept, my philosophical thinking, or logic, but it is sound. (based on the assessment of academic experts when I was a student) That happens. Medlin was a great opponent of the Vietnam war while i was a supporter of it, despite using the same tools of logic he employed. Our underlying values beliefs and priorities were different, and thus the same application of logic and philosophy led us to opposing conclusions.

And no, i have no recollection of any such philosophical conversation with you. But then i miss a lot of your posts, because I have to unblock each one individually, i usually only reply because i have seen your comments reposted in other posts but sometimes curiosity drives me on.

But this wasnt quoted by another poster, so how did you see it ?

Are you saying you have me on ignore, so you wont have to see my posts , but then ... that nagging curiosity hooks you and you just have to peek ( even when I am not quoted ) , but then you have to unblock me .... then you read it and respond ... and put me on ignore again ( that;ll show me ! )

.... but then you come back online and do it all over again; unblock each post individually, to read it, even though you blocked it, so you wouldn't have to read it.

? ? ?

Jason-Sudeikis-Evil-Laugh-150x150.gif

if you got a weird reply it was because you were not clear (to me) and i replied to what i THOUGHT you were talking about. That is very common as you seem to live in a different world from mine (or vice versa) .

But everyone gets weird replies from you shrug.gif

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psyche101

Yeah, I see that and I am very <_< with it. I even said as much in GreenmansGod's new thread.

In which, it has to stop, in my feeling. How can we say we are a free country and we are open arms to everyone, when we end up ridiculing some of them, because of how we believe and how they believe? It's so hipocritical! :rolleyes: I kind of get numb, when watching what is going on with our politics.

Exactly!! As Dawkin's said:

We are all Atheists, some of us just go one God Further.

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psyche101

Thank you i now have a much clearer understanding of your belief system which is much like my own and contains elements of secular humanism . However it leaves a lot of questions unanswered WHY is commnunity more important than the individual and when, if ever, does an individual count more than the community

What levels) of control can a community reasonably impose on a individual? While we can lock up for life a very few of those among us who cause harm, it is not affordable or practical to do this for all As i said i would be tougher than you. In a theoretical world i would execute everyone who, after some help, still cannot control their emotions enough not to hurt others That would include every man who beat his wife in anger and every woman who harmed their child in anger I would consider alternative treatment for people who are psychiatrically unwell and will respond to treatment It would not include those who commit acts of violence dispassionately, or logically, or legally, where their actions fall within society's needs and are in a sense required to keep society safe eg police military or evn teaching the young to be self disciplined It is the uncontrolled violence, unrestrained by mental control, which is the real danger in a modern society, as several recent deaths in Australia illustrate..

But you have answered the first of my prime questions Your BELIEF, which drives your morality, is very similar to my own .

Humans are dependent on their society for survival and success.

Thus the protection and strengthening of the community (from family, through clan/tribe, to nation state)has a higher priority than the absolute freedom of an individual. In consequence laws must reflect establishing a reasonable balance, which protects the society/community as much as possible, while giving as much individual freedom as possible, only after the first priority is achieved. .

That is a belief We could explore why you hold that particular belief.

Other humans evolve entirely different beliefs such as; that life is about survival of the fittest and that we should shape our society to ensure only the strongest survive This argument says that, in protecting the weak and vulnerable and those who cost society more than they give, and allowing them to breed, we actually weaken our survival chances.

And so here we have the basis, within diverging beliefs, for two very separate religions to grow up, constructing two very different societies.

I have no idea what you are on about. I make informed decisions based on outcomes and known parameters. I would support the death penalty for cases that are closed. I would not kill every man that has ever had a fight with his wife. Some women are mean and nasty and every bit as bad as a man is. You belief seems to make men more evil, as is the norm with society and is wrong. I still feel justice can only be performed when all sides of the argument are heard. It is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around, but your beliefs have clouded this judgement.

Chemical castration is just a waste of time for someone who has forfeited their right to community access. Pedos and Murderers should simply be removed from society humanely.

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Only_

Exactly!! As Dawkin's said:

We are all Atheists, some of us just go one God Further.

Richard Dawkins is the laughingstock in academic philosophy circles. If you want to be taken seriously, don't quote him.

Edited by TaridD

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psyche101

Richard Dawkins is the laughingstock in academic philosophy circles. If you want to be taken seriously, don't quote him.

Perhaps you should aspire to attempt to be at least half the man he is. You are after all the laughing stock of this forum. Seen your posting, hit and run. That is pathetic. Dawkins can stand behind his work, something you have never done in this forum.

Edited by psyche101
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Liquid Gardens

Richard Dawkins is the laughingstock in academic philosophy circles. If you want to be taken seriously, don't quote him.

If Dawkins is a laughingstock, then what is nearly the entire subject of theology in 'academic philosophy circles'?

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Stubbly_Dooright

Exactly!! As Dawkin's said:

We are all Atheists, some of us just go one God Further.

We need to practice what we preach!!!

Or at least practice what we like to be seen to be preaching to make us look good! :D;)

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Sherapy

No . Both are positions of logic. (if you could see, and express them correctly)

My position on corporal punishment is this. The first duty of a parent, from love, is to educate their child. Such eduction necessitates the teaching of self discipline, this is achieved first via th imposition of external discipline to train the mind into disciplined patterns of thought. and behaviour. Now if, like you, a parent can raise well disciplined kids WITHOUT using any physical control, to teach them how to control their responses, that is fine and commendable (i tend not to believe it is actually possible, as physical restraint is ALWAYS used on young children just to keep them safe)

However, a parent who refuses to teach their child to control their emotional responses is guilty of abuse, and will bring suffering down on that child and his associates when older. Loving corporal punishment is a HIGHLY effective method of instilling self control in humans (even chimps use it)

The second value goes with the first. No society needs to tolerate (nor can it afford to tolerate) those within it who cannot, or will not, control their emotional responses enough to prevent them harming others, The prime role of a society is to protect the individuals with it.

So IDEALLY do you prefer to live in a society where (using the classic example) men abuse, rape, and kill women and children because their biology compels them to, or in one where everyone can control their emotions and crimes are restricted to those done deliberately and wilfully (and thus punishment is much more clear cut and easy to apply)

I don't know where you live, but men are not all predators waiting to rape and abuse woman. Yes, we have those that go terribly wrong as a combo of many things nature and nurture ( heredity, aptitude, birth order, parental influence, and cultural influences). These are the areas we want to look at and find better ways. One of these ways is the way we raise children.

A criminal didn't just get that way over night it was a long time in the making.

We contribute to the problems we have by the encouraging of teaching our kids harmful ways to problem solve, teaching them that it's not okay to feel and talk about things, or get angry and set boundaries, or assert themselves in healthy ways, or tell them things shouldn't matter when they do.

We didn't tell our kids when there was bully's to look the other way, that the bully had low self esteem ( explain away and justify the poor behavior) so the bully got a free pass on how he behaved and, therefore our kids should be victims, voiceless, and fearful, BS.

I don't teach my kids they should turn the other cheek, they have the right to use their voice and right to defend themselves as long as it is respectful (if possible). We didn't put them into dangerous situations knowing they would not be equipped to handle some bully.

My hubby would not have given one rats ass who was what if any kid in our neighborhood was being bullied. He never gave up or went away till it was handled. My hubby doesn't take no for an answer. He was also bullied as a kid and vowed to not do as his parents did which was nothing. We saw the do nothin approach as nonsense and impractical, it leaves scars on kids and distorts what is acceptable and what isn't. It destroys one sense of good.

My kids were trained to protect themselves, my youngest had to use jujitsu once his whole childhood, my middle son had his football girth and so issues were minimal, instead he looked out for those who needed it. This is what parents do now they put their kids in self defense if you know you have bullies you strategize for it.

We were a part of anti-bully campaigns as a network of parents and we didn't say it's a rite of a passage, we said it's not okay and insisted on a better way and we are well on our way to that as a culture, few people advocate bullying anymore or look away. Not where I am.

Edited by Sherapy
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EEHC

If Dawkins is a laughingstock, then what is nearly the entire subject of theology in 'academic philosophy circles'?

I would agree that the New Atheists' attempts at philosophy are actually far from convincing. That is despite the fact some of them claim that the study of philosophy is useless. I mean we are far from great atheist thinkers such as Nietzche, Schopenhauer, Hume, Antony Flew ect...

Edited by EEHC

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