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Emmisal

The God Debate - Is it really about evidence?

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psyche101

I would agree that the New Atheists' attempts at philosophy are actually far from convincing.

In what respect?

That is despite the fact some of them claim that the study of philosophy is useless.

Yeah, that's where I am going with this.

I mean we are far from great atheist thinkers such as Nietzche, Schopenhauer, Hume, Antony Flew ect...

Great pioneers, but they would be enthralled to listen to Lawrence Krauss speak about something from nothing.

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Stubbly_Dooright

I don't know where you live, but men are not all predators waiting to rape and abuse woman. Yes, we have those that go terribly wrong as a combo of many things nature and nurture ( heredity, aptitude, birth order, parental influence, and cultural influences). These are the areas we want to look at and find better ways. One of these ways is the way we raise children.

A criminal didn't just get that way over night it was a long time in the making.

We contribute to the problems we have by the encouraging of teaching our kids harmful ways to problem solve, teaching them that it's not okay to feel and talk about things, or get angry and set boundaries, or assert themselves in healthy ways, or tell them things shouldn't matter when they do.

We didn't tell our kids when there was bully's to look the other way, that the bully had low self esteem ( explain away and justify the poor behavior) so the bully got a free pass on how he behaved and, therefore our kids should be victims, voiceless, and fearful, BS.

I don't teach my kids they should turn the other cheek, they have the right to use their voice and right to defend themselves as long as it is respectful (if possible). We didn't put them into dangerous situations knowing they would not be equipped to handle some bully.

My hubby would not have given one rats ass who was what if any kid in our neighborhood was being bullied. He never gave up or went away till it was handled. My hubby doesn't take no for an answer. He was also bullied as a kid and vowed to not do as his parents did which was nothing. We saw the do nothin approach as nonsense and impractical, it leaves scars on kids and distorts what is acceptable and what isn't. It destroys one sense of good.

My kids were trained to protect themselves, my youngest had to use jujitsu once his whole childhood, my middle son had his football girth and so issues were minimal, instead he looked out for those who needed it. This is what parents do now they put their kids in self defense if you know you have bullies you strategize for it.

We were a part of anti-bully campaigns as a network of parents and we didn't say it's a rite of a passage, we said it's not okay and insisted on a better way and we are well on our way to that as a culture, few people advocate bullying anymore or look away. Not where I am.

This is a great answer! :tu:

Frankly, those who were raised, and I like to think in 'mostly' the way I raised mind in a non-physical but highly structured and disciplined way, was a great way to love them and get them ready for the world. ( I have always explained to my kids, that being the person who doesn't resort to violence and to find a better way out, is better off, than the one who caused the violence. ) One must find ways of defending themselves, and yes that makes sense. But those who were raised with the physical discipline and pretty much that that is how you 'control' through that, seems to me in my experience, the ones who provoked the problems.

Like you said, Sheri, it was in the making for those who are the violent criminals and rapists. :yes:

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Sherapy

I don't know where you live, but men are not all predators waiting to rape and abuse woman. Yes, we have those that go terribly wrong as a combo of many things nature and nurture ( heredity, aptitude, birth order, parental influence, and cultural influences). These are the areas we want to look at and find better ways. One of these ways is the way we raise children.

A criminal didn't just get that way over night it was a long time in the making.

We contribute to the problems we have by the encouraging of teaching our kids harmful ways to problem solve, teaching them that it's not okay to feel and talk about things, or get angry and set boundaries, or assert themselves in healthy ways, or tell them things shouldn't matter when they do.

We didn't tell our kids when there was bully's to look the other way, that the bully had low self esteem ( explain away and justify the poor behavior) so the bully got a free pass on how he behaved and, therefore our kids should be victims, voiceless, and fearful, BS.

I don't teach my kids they should turn the other cheek, they have the right to use their voice and right to defend themselves as long as it is respectful (if possible). We didn't put them into dangerous situations knowing they would not be equipped to handle some bully.

My hubby would not have given one rats ass who was what if any kid in our neighborhood was being bullied. He never gave up or went away till it was handled. My hubby doesn't take no for an answer. He was also bullied as a kid and vowed to not do as his parents did which was nothing. We saw the do nothin approach as nonsense and impractical, it leaves scars on kids and distorts what is acceptable and what isn't. It destroys one sense of good.

My kids were trained to protect themselves, my youngest had to use jujitsu once his whole childhood, my middle son had his football girth and so issues were minimal, instead he looked out for those who needed it. This is what parents do now they put their kids in self defense if you know you have bullies you strategize for it.

We were a part of anti-bully campaigns as a network of parents and we didn't say it's a rite of a passage, we said it's not okay and insisted on a better way and we are well on our way to that as a culture, few people advocate bullying anymore or look away. Not where I am.

This is a great answer! :tu:

Frankly, those who were raised, and I like to think in 'mostly' the way I raised mind in a non-physical but highly structured and disciplined way, was a great way to love them and get them ready for the world. ( I have always explained to my kids, that being the person who doesn't resort to violence and to find a better way out, is better off, than the one who caused the violence. ) One must find ways of defending themselves, and yes that makes sense. But those who were raised with the physical discipline and pretty much that that is how you 'control' through that, seems to me in my experience, the ones who provoked the problems.

Like you said, Sheri, it was in the making for those who are the violent criminals and rapists. :yes:

Yes, the way we raise our kids can contribute to the future pros and cons we have as a culture. We use our parental power( authority) to teach the discipline of self -regulation, for example, we teach our kids to think before they react, we teach them to manage their emotions, not deny that they have them. We are not raising chimps; we are raising humans who will use the greatest asset they have which is their ability to think, problem solve, and strategize based on the dynamics of the situation.

It begins with putting some thought into the process ourselves.

I know of one family out of the many I have been around that used corporal punishment as the mainstay of parenting ( beating with a belt) and the oldest child went a path of self destruction which led to therapy for the family ( anger management ), sister turned out to be a bully just like Dad only she took it to the level of an armed robbery and drug abuse.

My youngest was at their house once and he saw the dad beat the hell out of puppies for peeping on the carpet, my son left, he said it was traumatizing. The dad was not a bad guy in everyway he was an alcoholic who had poor self control himself and was beaten by his alcoholic dad (he needed alternatives), which came when his daughter started getting into serious trouble. The whole family was court ordered to got help, dad got sober and took anger management, for now the daughter is a work in progress (but not hopeless) and the other two kids have had better quality parenting and are doing good, the point it is to teach new ways not exterminate people.

It is incredibly easy to lose ones compassion, vulnerability, and empathy in abusive enviornments, and it frames the crux of who we become unless we seek alternatives, my grandmother in her wisdom knew this and put me in therapy (at eleven) to help me work through the outrage, terror, and trauma, and to understand that beating children is not love, nor does a child ever deserve this, and in time I came to understand that my mom was passing on what she had been taught, mindlessly.

I was so fortunate to have my grandmother (who not formally educated herself ) valued education and better ways and was open. The very best of who I am comes from the example of this woman, yet, she wasn't perfect and she pointed this out ( she was human) and encouraged me to question, challenge, think things through especially her ideas and it was the "unspoken" that of course our culture would find new ways as this is the way it works.

She wasn't one of those old people who quit growing.

Edited by Sherapy
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Xeno-Fish

We are the ones who make monsters. There are ways in which one could/can turn entire cultures into a legion of monsters.

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EEHC
Great pioneers, but they would be enthralled to listen to Lawrence Krauss speak about something from nothing.

Define 'nothing'.

If the Universe is the result of a random quantum fluke, than where does the laws of quantum mechanics - permitting a vacuum in the first place - come from?

This is a major flaw in Krauss' argument, IMO.

Edited by EEHC
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psyche101

Define 'nothing'.

Apparently empty space. An area devoid of observable physical matter.

If the Universe is the result of a random quantum fluke, than where does the laws of quantum mechanics - permitting a vacuum in the first place - come from?

This is a major flaw in Krauss' argument, IMO.

When QM is applied to space at the smallest possible scale, space itself becomes unstable. Rather than remaining perfectly smooth and continuous, space and time destabilise, churning and frothing into a foam of space-time bubbles.

LINK

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EEHC
When QM is applied to space at the smallest possible scale, space itself becomes unstable. Rather than remaining perfectly smooth and continuous, space and time destabilise, churning and frothing into a foam of space-time bubbles.

LINK

And what if the laws of quantum mechanics have some deeper, unknown propriety? How would you even know? Is there really a point where the human mind can stop inquiring and say that's it, there's 'nothing' else, no God(s) or whatever ! That's why I think his arguments are unsound.

Refutation of the book A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss:

http://www.nytimes.c...rauss.html?_r=0

Edited by EEHC
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Mr Walker

I don't know where you live, but men are not all predators waiting to rape and abuse woman. Yes, we have those that go terribly wrong as a combo of many things nature and nurture ( heredity, aptitude, birth order, parental influence, and cultural influences). These are the areas we want to look at and find better ways. One of these ways is the way we raise children.

A criminal didn't just get that way over night it was a long time in the making.

We contribute to the problems we have by the encouraging of teaching our kids harmful ways to problem solve, teaching them that it's not okay to feel and talk about things, or get angry and set boundaries, or assert themselves in healthy ways, or tell them things shouldn't matter when they do.

We didn't tell our kids when there was bully's to look the other way, that the bully had low self esteem ( explain away and justify the poor behavior) so the bully got a free pass on how he behaved and, therefore our kids should be victims, voiceless, and fearful, BS.

I don't teach my kids they should turn the other cheek, they have the right to use their voice and right to defend themselves as long as it is respectful (if possible). We didn't put them into dangerous situations knowing they would not be equipped to handle some bully.

My hubby would not have given one rats ass who was what if any kid in our neighborhood was being bullied. He never gave up or went away till it was handled. My hubby doesn't take no for an answer. He was also bullied as a kid and vowed to not do as his parents did which was nothing. We saw the do nothin approach as nonsense and impractical, it leaves scars on kids and distorts what is acceptable and what isn't. It destroys one sense of good.

My kids were trained to protect themselves, my youngest had to use jujitsu once his whole childhood, my middle son had his football girth and so issues were minimal, instead he looked out for those who needed it. This is what parents do now they put their kids in self defense if you know you have bullies you strategize for it.

We were a part of anti-bully campaigns as a network of parents and we didn't say it's a rite of a passage, we said it's not okay and insisted on a better way and we are well on our way to that as a culture, few people advocate bullying anymore or look away. Not where I am.

50% of all female homicide victims in Australia are killed as a result of domestic violence, and one woman is killed every week by their partner

http://www.whiteribbon.org.au/white-ribbon-importance

Violence against women is a serious problem in Australia where:

No not all men, but unfortunately men are statistically much more likely to lose control of their emotions in a destructive way and then to do harm to others. It also happens with women but more rarely. It is, in part biological, with testosterone and our chromosomes to blame, but it is also how we learn to behave and respond

Here i agree with you that all children should be educated in appropriate interactions and behaviours ( but they still watch the adults in their lives model poor behaviours ) I have taken many anti bullying, anti victimisation, self esteem and resilience building classes with students aimed at lessen bullying and violence, but it is often caused by powerlessness or an imbalance of power in a relationship.so the more power you can give to a child or a woman in a relationship, the better.

I actually agree with you whole -heartedly with you on this, and think you are very fortunate to have the husband you do.

Edited by Mr Walker

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seax

I will be the first to say this is a tough subject, and you can bet not the first conversation on this. First let me say I do believe in God and consider myself a Christian...but lets get one thing clear...I'm no saint. I will drink a pint, look at a good looking woman, and use a few choice words...but I 'fear', or a little kinder word I 'believe.' If you read the Bible it re-interates the word 'trust.' We should trust and believe that he is there. If you look at religion especially the two major religions Christianity and Islam, you will see especially now something that looks more like Hell than religion. The Christian church went through a reformation, Islam seriously needs one. You would ask why anyone would embrace a religion that gave us the inquisition and especially a religion that encourages cutting off the heads of ones that will not conform...in the 21st Century. Prior to the reformation of the Christian church the clericks interpreted the bible, usually rather than God's word it was their word, and let me say now it has always been man not God that burned people and cut off heads. So that being said can we blame God for our stupidity. After all if you read Genesis we started off in a garden and decided not to follow orders this set the scene for bad things that happen to people as the gentleman mentioned in the video. I think God believes in Democracy....go for it. You know the rules you choose. If we didn't have choice would we be robots or living beings... would our existence have any meaning. Would you rather create a robot if you could or an organism that can think, and freely chooses to be a part of a wondrous creation. I'm asking questions...I don't know but have you ever looked an image of a distant galaxy. You have all these islands of stars and planets floating around in what appears to be an endless universe...just floating ....spinning ...and for what. You look at the Earth all the life here, and it is an accident? A freak of what...nature? Well, what is nature. What made the decision to change or turn on a gene to make an organism or creature unique. We say a cell can make that decision, and really it's hard for me to buy that. Who has the pattern and the plans?

I could go on and on but here is the point I'm trying to get to. The human race for the most part is responsible for its short comings and problems. The gentleman in the video asked a valid question and we all at one time or another have asked it. Why would God let children suffer and allow all the misery in this world. It is man that instigates all this misery, the bible does not teach this. There are passages in the Old Testament that someone could make an argument with this ....but that's another discussion. Greed, power, and hate are all attributes of man...sometimes done in the name of religion. That is not religions or Gods fault. Everyone worships something, they may not admit it but they do. I know no man or woman created that galaxy I referred to earlier or the unique flora and fauna that's on this one blue ball rotating and revolving around star ....just far enough away to nurture all this life. Everyone to their own, but I'll stick to believing in the one I don't see ...rather than the ones I do see. He is a lot more credible.

seax :tu:

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Sherapy

50% of all female homicide victims in Australia are killed as a result of domestic violence, and one woman is killed every week by their partner

http://www.whiteribbon.org.au/white-ribbon-importance

Violence against women is a serious problem in Australia where:

No not all men, but unfortunately men are statistically much more likely to lose control of their emotions in a destructive way and then to do harm to others. It also happens with women but more rarely. It is, in part biological, with testosterone and our chromosomes to blame, but it is also how we learn to behave and respond

Here i agree with you that all children should be educated in appropriate interactions and behaviours ( but they still watch the adults in their lives model poor behaviours ) I have taken many anti bullying, anti victimisation, self esteem and resilience building classes with students aimed at lessen bullying and violence, but it is often caused by powerlessness or an imbalance of power in a relationship.so the more power you can give to a child or a woman in a relationship, the better.

I actually agree with you whole -heartedly with you on this, and think you are very fortunate to have the husband you do.

Personally, I would never ever use corporal punishment on any child and least of all a male because of the surge of testosterone you mention. I think from about 17 to 22 males can be potentially lethal weapons because of it, my husband never once has lifted a finger to the boys. Thank you for your kind words about my hubby, I admire and am inspired by him for many things, but the example he has set for the boys is commendable to me, he guides with compassion, humour, and honesty.

(I think BTE and Psyche are similar men) there is just the kind of man who commands respect because of his integrity, wisdom, and levelheadedness. I almost tear up when I think of the awesome dad and step dad he is and his example has taught them how to be honourable fine men which is a man never uses harm to resolve conflict, the boys told me that it is an understood he is the man of the house, he takes care of the family and he has earned their respect on that alone. Hammer once described his dad in a similar way. When dad or step dad speaks the boys honor them.

An interesting side note my ex husband and hubby are friends, my ex thinks he is an amazing man too ( no kidding) and has often thanked him for the step father he has been.

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy

I will be the first to say this is a tough subject, and you can bet not the first conversation on this. First let me say I do believe in God and consider myself a Christian...but lets get one thing clear...I'm no saint. I will drink a pint, look at a good looking woman, and use a few choice words...but I 'fear', or a little kinder word I 'believe.' If you read the Bible it re-interates the word 'trust.' We should trust and believe that he is there. If you look at religion especially the two major religions Christianity and Islam, you will see especially now something that looks more like Hell than religion. The Christian church went through a reformation, Islam seriously needs one. You would ask why anyone would embrace a religion that gave us the inquisition and especially a religion that encourages cutting off the heads of ones that will not conform...in the 21st Century. Prior to the reformation of the Christian church the clericks interpreted the bible, usually rather than God's word it was their word, and let me say now it has always been man not God that burned people and cut off heads. So that being said can we blame God for our stupidity. After all if you read Genesis we started off in a garden and decided not to follow orders this set the scene for bad things that happen to people as the gentleman mentioned in the video. I think God believes in Democracy....go for it. You know the rules you choose. If we didn't have choice would we be robots or living beings... would our existence have any meaning. Would you rather create a robot if you could or an organism that can think, and freely chooses to be a part of a wondrous creation. I'm asking questions...I don't know but have you ever looked an image of a distant galaxy. You have all these islands of stars and planets floating around in what appears to be an endless universe...just floating ....spinning ...and for what. You look at the Earth all the life here, and it is an accident? A freak of what...nature? Well, what is nature. What made the decision to change or turn on a gene to make an organism or creature unique. We say a cell can make that decision, and really it's hard for me to buy that. Who has the pattern and the plans?

I could go on and on but here is the point I'm trying to get to. The human race for the most part is responsible for its short comings and problems. The gentleman in the video asked a valid question and we all at one time or another have asked it. Why would God let children suffer and allow all the misery in this world. It is man that instigates all this misery, the bible does not teach this. There are passages in the Old Testament that someone could make an argument with this ....but that's another discussion. Greed, power, and hate are all attributes of man...sometimes done in the name of religion. That is not religions or Gods fault. Everyone worships something, they may not admit it but they do. I know no man or woman created that galaxy I referred to earlier or the unique flora and fauna that's on this one blue ball rotating and revolving around star ....just far enough away to nurture all this life. Everyone to their own, but I'll stick to believing in the one I don't see ...rather than the ones I do see. He is a lot more credible.

seax :tu:

The problem of evil argument is an excellent argument and so far there isn't a good reason when it comes to justifying natural evil. Why not have a go at it, it read 'the problem of evil' and counter.

http://faculty.piercecollege.edu/johnsomc/classes/Critical%20Thinking%20and%20Composition/Course%20Readings/van%20Inwagen%20-%20The%20Problem%20of%20Evil.pdf

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psyche101

And what if the laws of quantum mechanics have some deeper, unknown propriety?

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

How would you even know?

Like all discoveries in science, the picture would be incomplete. We found the Higgs Bosun because it theoretically had to exist to make physics work. We found elements because the properties we looked for indicated they were there, there are hints clues and obvious holes that point us in these directions. They are not random discoveries, they are something we are looking for to make the theories complete.

No such hole exists for God and the Supernatural. Nothings says "A supernatural occurrence would make "X" possible" and better explanations than Gods or any such ideal exist in nature with examples. The Big Bang is the best theory we have - to fit the evidence. It's is not something "a heap of scientists really like" which is what relgion is, it is the real world observation by following the evidence.

Is there really a point where the human mind can stop inquiring and say that's it, there's 'nothing' else, no God(s) or whatever !

I do expect we have we have reached that point already. What does God do? Where is he supposed to have come from? All the questions you ask of QM apply to the concept of God tenfold - and then some. Science observes the real time processes in nature, and says "we have seen this happen, when we apply the model to "X" it pans out".

That's why I think his arguments are unsound.

Doesn't the concept of God create greater questions that remain unanswered? Accountability is where this buck stops. You have a personal opinion on the ideals that appeal to you, but if you had to prove them, you could not. Krauss can offer a great deal of information to back his claims. God cannot.

Refutation of the book A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss:

http://www.nytimes.c...rauss.html?_r=0

I have seen this before, and I questions as to if the author understand, or has read the book, for instance, right of the bat he states:

Where, for starters, are the laws of quantum mechanics themselves supposed to have come from? Krauss is more or less upfront, as it turns out, about not having a clue about that.

Krauss has indeed answered that question - he does not know. Our observations only go back to a point before the Big Bang, he relies on sound theories backed by Mathematics and simulations, as well as observed evidences to come to this conclusion.

In addition to that, Krauss does not explain how any laws come to exist, he explains what they do, and what we see. That is science - observation, not a set of rules. And those observations are fluid and can change upon new information being discovered or realised.

He then asks for productive work - what, a direct observation of the Big Bang? That is just a sily thing to say altogether. There was not even light for the first 400,00 odd years or so, what are we supposed to be seeing?

He then goes onto complain about — the laws of relativistic quantum field theories — and says that is incomplete?? That is as far as science can take us at this point in time, and Krauss is honest about that, he is simply expecting too much to overcome what seems to be his own ego. Both Krauss and Dawkins push this point all the time - that when they do not know, they will say they do not know, what it does not however explain is why Krauss is wrong, it is just a whine about him. Where are the alternate theories? Where are the corrections? There are none, but there are misinterpretations and bad explanation of how he sees what Krauss has to say. Hell, he tries to insinuate the Krauss model of Chaos in the QM world is wrong, and that the particles are particular arrangements! No proof, nothing, and totally ignoring about a gazillion examples in nature that prove him wrong.

There is much more I could pick on, but this could go for hours. It might be more productive to ask where you see this article actually outlining a single flaw in Krauss theories, or better explanations. It seems more like the author is just fumbling around science to me?

His last sentence sums it all up, he is offended because Krauss says relgion is dumb. If he pulls his head out of his own rear end long enough to actually listen to what Krauss is saying, he should realise his argument is based not in science, but in bias.

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psyche101

I will be the first to say this is a tough subject, and you can bet not the first conversation on this. First let me say I do believe in God and consider myself a Christian...but lets get one thing clear...I'm no saint. I will drink a pint, look at a good looking woman, and use a few choice words...but I 'fear', or a little kinder word I 'believe.' If you read the Bible it re-interates the word 'trust.' We should trust and believe that he is there. If you look at religion especially the two major religions Christianity and Islam, you will see especially now something that looks more like Hell than religion. The Christian church went through a reformation, Islam seriously needs one. You would ask why anyone would embrace a religion that gave us the inquisition and especially a religion that encourages cutting off the heads of ones that will not conform...in the 21st Century. Prior to the reformation of the Christian church the clericks interpreted the bible, usually rather than God's word it was their word, and let me say now it has always been man not God that burned people and cut off heads. So that being said can we blame God for our stupidity. After all if you read Genesis we started off in a garden and decided not to follow orders this set the scene for bad things that happen to people as the gentleman mentioned in the video. I think God believes in Democracy....go for it. You know the rules you choose. If we didn't have choice would we be robots or living beings... would our existence have any meaning. Would you rather create a robot if you could or an organism that can think, and freely chooses to be a part of a wondrous creation. I'm asking questions...I don't know but have you ever looked an image of a distant galaxy. You have all these islands of stars and planets floating around in what appears to be an endless universe...just floating ....spinning ...and for what. You look at the Earth all the life here, and it is an accident? A freak of what...nature? Well, what is nature. What made the decision to change or turn on a gene to make an organism or creature unique. We say a cell can make that decision, and really it's hard for me to buy that. Who has the pattern and the plans?

I could go on and on but here is the point I'm trying to get to. The human race for the most part is responsible for its short comings and problems. The gentleman in the video asked a valid question and we all at one time or another have asked it. Why would God let children suffer and allow all the misery in this world. It is man that instigates all this misery, the bible does not teach this. There are passages in the Old Testament that someone could make an argument with this ....but that's another discussion. Greed, power, and hate are all attributes of man...sometimes done in the name of religion. That is not religions or Gods fault. Everyone worships something, they may not admit it but they do. I know no man or woman created that galaxy I referred to earlier or the unique flora and fauna that's on this one blue ball rotating and revolving around star ....just far enough away to nurture all this life. Everyone to their own, but I'll stick to believing in the one I don't see ...rather than the ones I do see. He is a lot more credible.

seax :tu:

Gidday Mate

Been a very long time, nice to see you around, haven't seen you since I was posting at The Conspiracy Cafe, I see that forum seems to have disappeared?

I used to be rather religious, the evidence just leads in a different direction, I cannot consider a flawed book, and tall tales handed down for thousands of years of real world discoveries and observations. I just see no contest there. Evidence or story? Evidence for me every time mate.

All the best. Hope you have been well.

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mskate

when the science & spiritually merge I think we can all move forward. With a lot of questions answered

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psyche101

when the science & spiritually merge I think we can all move forward. With a lot of questions answered

How do you define spirituality?

It's a biggie ...........

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mskate

Like your higer self..... or just spirit.. why?

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psyche101

Like your higer self..... or just spirit.. why?

Just that many of us define the "Spirit" quite differently, for instance, to me, "Spirit" means a person's character, some have a strong and outspoken character, some have a meek and quiet character, some are comical and funny, some are downright brilliant, the sum of our experiences that make us what we are. I do not believe in like a Ghost version of ourselves. I find that we are what we make of ourselves.

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Mr Walker

Personally, I would never ever use corporal punishment on any child and least of all a male because of the surge of testosterone you mention. I think from about 17 to 22 males can be potentially lethal weapons because of it, my husband never once has lifted a finger to the boys. Thank you for your kind words about my hubby, I admire and am inspired by him for many things, but the example he has set for the boys is commendable to me, he guides with compassion, humour, and honesty.

(I think BTE and Psyche are similar men) there is just the kind of man who commands respect because of his integrity, wisdom, and levelheadedness. I almost tear up when I think of the awesome dad and step dad he is and his example has taught them how to be honourable fine men which is a man never uses harm to resolve conflict, the boys told me that it is an understood he is the man of the house, he takes care of the family and he has earned their respect on that alone. Hammer once described his dad in a similar way. When dad or step dad speaks the boys honor them.

An interesting side note my ex husband and hubby are friends, my ex thinks he is an amazing man too ( no kidding) and has often thanked him for the step father he has been.

I wrote all the below and then thought i would just say this. i respect your way of discipling and educating IF it works for you and your family What annoys me is that you cannot accord my family the same right to use corporal punishment and then to produce exceptionally fine, law abiding and self disciplined children who are never angry or violent, and who include some highly educated young people ( a nuclear biologist and an environmental lawyer included. )

I understand your fears about uncontrolled violence being used to discipline children, but that is NOT what i am speaking of. Emotionally charged discipline cannot lead to self discipline and control, because it is modelling the wrong behaviour, but demonstrating self control in discipline CAN.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Oh dear. just when we are agreeing, you go off on corporal punishment again, Corporal punishment is highly effective in establishing the inner mental control and discipline required, so that a human being can recognise just what inner discipline is (how it feels and is created) and then can learn to apply it to themselves. The ability to control emotive responses like anger is essential in all humans and this must be taught to children.

It cant be done if a child is punished in anger, or by an adult lacking in their own emotional control . But, as i have said many times, my parents were never angry, or out of control in their lives, with ANYONE, (because they had learned inner discipline and control) and certainly never disciplined us if even a little upset.

For example my father never even raised his fist (or his voice) to ANY person, including his family, that i observed, in his entire life. In the nearly sixty years i knew him, i never once saw him angry, or out of control of his behaviour.

They would discuss the crime and punishment, go over the rules which had been broken, establish if we thought they were being fair (and given a chance to plead any extenuating circumstances) and then usually many hours AFTER the offence in the evening) the y would mete out the punishment. Sometimes it was immediate for effect like when my mum gave the girls a light whip with the horse whip because they refused to stop some really bad swea,ring or when she washed out my mouth with soap for a similar offence. BUT we learned just the opposite to what you claim corporal punishment might teach a child. We learned that love can be expressed through punishment for breaking rules, we learned this could be done in a non emotive and controlled way, and we learned our parents loved us so much they could bring themselves to do this. We learned that the punishment was for the offence, not the person and that we were loved, always, no matter what we did.

Two points Some people might be able to teach that inner mental control without punishment but it is rare to see that and second, there are dozens if not a hundred members of my extended family who have NEVER hit another person Who have never lost control of their temper, and who would never hit another person in anger, but who would use corporal punishment on their kids because the y have seen how well it works in their own loves. So corporal punishment given in love and without emotion is extremely effective in teaching people to learn how to control their behaviour as adults. It conditions you so you cant even consider stealing or doing other wrongs, let alone actually do them, because your mind and body, signal danger danger, even as you contemplate the thought.

For example i have never got angry with a person and lost control. I have never hit another person except in self defence( or to protect another), and i have never endangered anyone by losing control of my actions. Young males are only potentially lethal weapons BECAUSE no one has taught them full self discipline

Certainly as a young man i indulged in a lot of risky behaviour mostly in sports /recretional pursuits But nothing which endangered others because I might lose contrrol

. A father should be honoured and respected by his children (and so should a mother) In part this has to be earned . I had a very close and loving relationship with my parents all my life as did all my family At their funerals many people spoke of their character and leadership in the community as well. Using corporal punishment did nothing to reduce that love or respect, and in my case enhanced it. i would find it hard to respect a parent who did NOT act to do what was necessary to teach me self discipline and control. That might be giving me one good whack a week when deserved or it might involve self sacrifice, time and effort taken to teach and model good behaviour.

Because we learned these skills very early, we were given freedoms and responsibilities young people today rarely have, Including hunting, fishing, skin, diving, exploring sailing etc by ourselves as pre teens.

Edited by Mr Walker

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alibongo

The more we learn about the complexity of the universe, the more we revere God. He created all this, without the benefit of light, even (until he created it),and he left cryptic messages for us to puzzle together.

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Xeno-Fish

The more we learn about the complexity of the universe, the more we revere God. He created all this, without the benefit of light, even (until he created it),and he left cryptic messages for us to puzzle together.

If 'god' did create the universe then what is god? What came before 'god'? 'God', like some many before him was just a means of explaining at their time unknown phenomenon. There were gods of the harvest, lightning, death, etc. All things we came to understand as time passed on. Those gods died. This god is one such thing. As we learn more about how things work, this god will die. It exist only as a thought, an idea. It is as real to you as you wish it to be.

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Rlyeh

The more we learn about the complexity of the universe, the more we revere God. He created all this, without the benefit of light, even (until he created it),and he left cryptic messages for us to puzzle together.

Not the same god who throws lightning bolts?
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seax

Gidday Mate

Been a very long time, nice to see you around, haven't seen you since I was posting at The Conspiracy Cafe, I see that forum seems to have disappeared?

I used to be rather religious, the evidence just leads in a different direction, I cannot consider a flawed book, and tall tales handed down for thousands of years of real world discoveries and observations. I just see no contest there. Evidence or story? Evidence for me every time mate.

All the best. Hope you have been well.

Hello Psyche,

It is good to hear from you, hope you and yours have been doing well. And yes I believe Conspiracy Café may have bit the dust, I can't find them either. You know the Vikings I think had a good idea, they took religion as a personal thing, each to his own. I respect your thoughts and beliefs and I feel this is one thing that hurts religion ; if you don't believe and do exactly as I do then you are doomed for Hell. Many automatically declare themselves God and are the judge and jury. That is a choice we all should make, because when it comes down to it none of us can offer proof beyond question. Religion is 'faith' based. Religion, not unlike any other belief or non-belief has its extreme left and its' extreme right. I like to think that one third is the number of man, because anything you go at one third is for it, one third against it , and one third in the middle waiting to see which way the wind blows. I never argue with anyone about their religious or non-religious beliefs, I'm not qualified and it's really none of my business. But a good discussion every now and then I feel is good for everyone, especially with an old friend like yourself. It is good to hear from you. By the way, you know I have the Megladon tooth and I believe you got one also a few years back, but did you see the youtube video taken by the Brazilian Coast Guard? Don't know it its real, if it is no more swimming in the ocean for me.

seax :tu:

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Stubbly_Dooright

Yes, the way we raise our kids can contribute to the future pros and cons we have as a culture. We use our parental power( authority) to teach the discipline of self -regulation, for example, we teach our kids to think before they react, we teach them to manage their emotions, not deny that they have them. We are not raising chimps; we are raising humans who will use the greatest asset they have which is their ability to think, problem solve, and strategize based on the dynamics of the situation.

It begins with putting some thought into the process ourselves.

I know of one family out of the many I have been around that used corporal punishment as the mainstay of parenting ( beating with a belt) and the oldest child went a path of self destruction which led to therapy for the family ( anger management ), sister turned out to be a bully just like Dad only she took it to the level of an armed robbery and drug abuse.

My youngest was at their house once and he saw the dad beat the hell out of puppies for peeping on the carpet, my son left, he said it was traumatizing. The dad was not a bad guy in everyway he was an alcoholic who had poor self control himself and was beaten by his alcoholic dad (he needed alternatives), which came when his daughter started getting into serious trouble. The whole family was court ordered to got help, dad got sober and took anger management, for now the daughter is a work in progress (but not hopeless) and the other two kids have had better quality parenting and are doing good, the point it is to teach new ways not exterminate people.

It is incredibly easy to lose ones compassion, vulnerability, and empathy in abusive enviornments, and it frames the crux of who we become unless we seek alternatives, my grandmother in her wisdom knew this and put me in therapy (at eleven) to help me work through the outrage, terror, and trauma, and to understand that beating children is not love, nor does a child ever deserve this, and in time I came to understand that my mom was passing on what she had been taught, mindlessly.

I was so fortunate to have my grandmother (who not formally educated herself ) valued education and better ways and was open. The very best of who I am comes from the example of this woman, yet, she wasn't perfect and she pointed this out ( she was human) and encouraged me to question, challenge, think things through especially her ideas and it was the "unspoken" that of course our culture would find new ways as this is the way it works.

She wasn't one of those old people who quit growing.

As I have told told you before, I think it was quite fortunately, and very awesome too, that you had her. :yes: I feel you have a rich childhood, because of her. I hope this is ok to say, but I think your warm and giving and forgiving nature is more likely because of her. As I also have told you, I do remember fond relationships with both my grandmothers, but yours made a huge impact and I do envy that. ( but still am glad she was there for you. ) And I do not remember my grandfathers at all, considering they both died when I was very very young.

You know, I think it's never too late to make an impact. As I never grew up with grandfathers, ( my grandmother's never remarried ) I ended up latching on to my husband's step-grandfather. A wonderful man. ( so was his surviving grandfather-- both men have passed away since then though :( ) Not only do I have memories of this man and his being............ him, but despite my father at the time, and my wonderful father in law, my daughter ended up calling 'gumpa' for the first time to hubby's step-grandfather. He always took everyone's hand and showed them the way of life in like through exciting eyes.

It seems, having never met your grandmother, she seems to warm my heart thinking of her and how her life touched yours. :yes:

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seax

The problem of evil argument is an excellent argument and so far there isn't a good reason when it comes to justifying natural evil. Why not have a go at it, it read 'the problem of evil' and counter.

http://faculty.pierc...lem of Evil.pdf

An interesting thought and discussion, I will do so and post my thoughts.

Thank you for your thoughts

seax :tu:

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Stubbly_Dooright

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Like all discoveries in science, the picture would be incomplete. We found the Higgs Bosun because it theoretically had to exist to make physics work. We found elements because the properties we looked for indicated they were there, there are hints clues and obvious holes that point us in these directions. They are not random discoveries, they are something we are looking for to make the theories complete.

No such hole exists for God and the Supernatural. Nothings says "A supernatural occurrence would make "X" possible" and better explanations than Gods or any such ideal exist in nature with examples. The Big Bang is the best theory we have - to fit the evidence. It's is not something "a heap of scientists really like" which is what relgion is, it is the real world observation by following the evidence.

I do expect we have we have reached that point already. What does God do? Where is he supposed to have come from? All the questions you ask of QM apply to the concept of God tenfold - and then some. Science observes the real time processes in nature, and says "we have seen this happen, when we apply the model to "X" it pans out".

Doesn't the concept of God create greater questions that remain unanswered? Accountability is where this buck stops. You have a personal opinion on the ideals that appeal to you, but if you had to prove them, you could not. Krauss can offer a great deal of information to back his claims. God cannot.

I have seen this before, and I questions as to if the author understand, or has read the book, for instance, right of the bat he states:

Where, for starters, are the laws of quantum mechanics themselves supposed to have come from? Krauss is more or less upfront, as it turns out, about not having a clue about that.

Krauss has indeed answered that question - he does not know. Our observations only go back to a point before the Big Bang, he relies on sound theories backed by Mathematics and simulations, as well as observed evidences to come to this conclusion.

In addition to that, Krauss does not explain how any laws come to exist, he explains what they do, and what we see. That is science - observation, not a set of rules. And those observations are fluid and can change upon new information being discovered or realised.

He then asks for productive work - what, a direct observation of the Big Bang? That is just a sily thing to say altogether. There was not even light for the first 400,00 odd years or so, what are we supposed to be seeing?

He then goes onto complain about — the laws of relativistic quantum field theories — and says that is incomplete?? That is as far as science can take us at this point in time, and Krauss is honest about that, he is simply expecting too much to overcome what seems to be his own ego. Both Krauss and Dawkins push this point all the time - that when they do not know, they will say they do not know, what it does not however explain is why Krauss is wrong, it is just a whine about him. Where are the alternate theories? Where are the corrections? There are none, but there are misinterpretations and bad explanation of how he sees what Krauss has to say. Hell, he tries to insinuate the Krauss model of Chaos in the QM world is wrong, and that the particles are particular arrangements! No proof, nothing, and totally ignoring about a gazillion examples in nature that prove him wrong.

There is much more I could pick on, but this could go for hours. It might be more productive to ask where you see this article actually outlining a single flaw in Krauss theories, or better explanations. It seems more like the author is just fumbling around science to me?

His last sentence sums it all up, he is offended because Krauss says relgion is dumb. If he pulls his head out of his own rear end long enough to actually listen to what Krauss is saying, he should realise his argument is based not in science, but in bias.

Sometimes I wonder about the reactions of those who cannot prove something, when being asked. This is me, and I could be wrong, but this is where I do respect a lot in the science field, as opposed to those who just insist that their way of believing is the best way.

From my standpoint, when those in logic thinking answers in the 'I don't know', I find it as a way of knowing that they don't have the answer, but there is always time for one to come.......... from a logical standpoint. At least, the answer was given.

I have found with some staunch particular believers, when asked to prove something, it's not even answered or the attention is suddenly pushed to another 'topic' that suddenly comes up as being something to discuss.

I have had this happen on various occasions. When asking some to prove their points in their particular beliefs that they are trying to push on everyone else, ( and I give examples of my experiences to show how I don't believe their points ) there is a reply to my posts with a 'wait a minute!' and then saying how they are 'shocked' at something that happened to me, ( far from the point and and answer to my questions ) and then try to steer the discussion to that.

If not that, no answer. :rolleyes:

The more we learn about the complexity of the universe, the more we revere God. He created all this, without the benefit of light, even (until he created it),and he left cryptic messages for us to puzzle together.

You say 'we' and 'us' like we all think like that. What you are saying doesn't refer me, and I have another way of looking at it in my right to say as my opinion, my feelings, and my personal thought. If I find any objective truth, I think I would post links, proof, and such to see if others believe me on it.

So............................ you have proof?

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