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Emmisal

The God Debate - Is it really about evidence?

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psyche101

I find this interesting, and begs the question, for me. I have always felt, that for quite a few years in my young adulthood, I was an Atheist. Well, maybe I wasn't. Was I? Or was I Agnostic. ................. or gnostic................. ;)

Well, I felt that life itself, was what it was, and despite my inability to understand science on a grand scale, it's still science I will acknowledge. I still do. I felt, that I needed to see the truth in proof to behave in a way that has me seeing what is in front of me. But, spirituality, I think I started a path, and at the same time, I took various experiences, that were not showing me a logical result, but a more paranormal result, and then I noticed a connection between the two.

But I still felt I was an Atheist.................. now I have to reflect on that.

I feel at a bit of a loss here I do not really understand spiritual experiences. When I used to surf a lot I would say that catching a barrel was what I felt was spiritual almost a religious experience same with the birth of my children but I am not sure that is what most refer to as spiritual.

Good point, but I would like to ask nicely, ...

.... don't you dare put those type of Donald Trump mental images in my head! ACK!

my brain needs to be cleansed.

I figure that hair just has to glow in the dark so the underworld seemed fitting .....

Edited by psyche101
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alibongo

There is obviously an all loving God,having cured childhood cancer in the west he is now on his way to sort out the sectarian problems in Syria, after that poverty in Somalia, give the chap a break,he is only human and Xmas is coming up.On top of that he has to permit buggary in priests and organise sex amongst Christians,organise stonings and god knows what else.obviously his time is taken up.but I will say these two words to you god- the first starts with f,the second with o

Edited by alibongo
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CelticBanshee

I made this post in another thread. Hopefully some will agree or find some use of this.

He/she/it is thought. Nothing but thought. There is no physical and separate God. This is where all of religion fails. They want to believe God is separate so they can be rewarded for their faith and NOTHING ELSE. If EVERY religion practiced what they preached then we truly would be living in peaceful times. But because of the idea 'have faith in me and I will reward you big in my everlasting kingdom' people turned cold and judgmental toward those who disagree in hope of sitting in a mansion sipping on martinis for thousands of years (A selfish thing would you agree?) and over time turned that to burning hatred and yearning for universal agreement over their one God as to go to war. One problem of course we all know is that almost EVERY religion adopted this. Everyone's trying to push their views onto everyone else, even the Atheists. For long have Atheists said 'don't push your views on me and I won't do the same' yet like the religious they can be just as bad in forcing their truth onto others.

Lets be clear neither side has evidence. You cannot claim that because of the lack of evidence God doesn't exist, that is merely a belief. Just as you cannot say, I believe in God because he cannot be dis proven, that is also a belief.

Whatever you believe remember you do not know for 100% even me, yes I know I could be completely wrong but I thought it worth saying. We're in the same boat remember, we need that final nail in the coffin that says A) God exists or B) It's baloney.

Even though I don't believe we have had extraterrestrial contact I'm betting that's where we'll find the answer. I do believe everything that has happened already on Earth is proof of what can happen elsewhere therefore it is happening elsewhere, and that someday should we not blow ourselves up, we will get off Earth and find another neighbor like us who will share common grounds. Love, humor, hate etc... and to me, the belief in a creator.

With that said here is my thought. I'm not forcing this on anyone so no hate please.

Atoms are made up of 99.9% nothing but vibrations and their .1% nucleus - This is fact isn't it?.

So try to think of God as working on a vibratory level. That's why music can be so powerful as to literally manipulate your emotions and bring you to tears, pumped up etc.. Sound is the propagation of vibrating particles - This is fact. Since everything including our own bodies is made up of 99 % vibrations we can see the relationship between the two.

Anyone who studies philosophy will be familiar with the idea that sensory perception is fallible in deducting the true nature of our world. We can only see so much color and hear so much sound and while we have instruments to see and hear what we can't that doesn't mean they see 100% of all existent objects.

Remember this friend. The only 100% truth that you and other humans can be absolutely sure of is that you are your mind.

Outside of this you cannot hold the ultimate truth behind something as that truth can be ever changing. Therefore we only have an opinion.

Okay yes you can be 'sure' that 'johns a d********' yes you can be sure that 'I'm petting this cat'. But John being a d******** is you only perceiving him to be that way, someone else may think he's cool. Who's right? It's all in the mind.

Yes we live in a physical world blah blah you know what I mean. The point is, the way you view things makes you believe it so. You are your mind, you are essentially thought. Think of anything that exists because of man. Remember, whatever you can think only first existed as a thought in that mans head.

Invention of lightbulb, car etc... didn't just come out of nowhere, it was a thought first, then word, then creation. This we can take as true, this is what is often forgotten by this and the upcoming generation. This is what God is. Thought. Sorry to say to anyone who doesn't want it to be true. But every little atom, every single cell organism, every grain of dirt, everything is actually The God itself. Me and you are God, him and herself.

This is what I think Jesus tried to preach however the people didn't understand so they viewed him as God. I don't know. Jesus wasn't one almighty son of God, we all are, even the fish of the sea. I don't see why Jesus is viewed now as fake. All the wars straight after his death is surely testimony along with the texts? Sure you can say the same for Zeus but I don't recall wars being started over the man he was, or Aries, or Thor for that matter.

Everything that happens whether good or bad, happens. What we feel about it is different.

Think of the oneness of everything like a web. When you say a prayer you vibrate your feelings and thought along this web. Except its not going anywhere it's instantly heard, as for the answer I believe we're here by our own choice. If God is all loving all powerful, why force us to do anything? Why not let us choose? I believe we reincarnate over and over, either out of repentance for past life mistakes/evils or for an Earthly experience again.

I believe after a long time in Gods essence after death we've known everything for so long we actually forget what it's like not to know so we come down here to create a unique experience. Therefore some prayers will be answered and some won't as we may have once chose to make certain path open at certain stages in our lives.

Where I'm going with this I could type forever and with the hate I'll draw it's not worth it. I'll just leave it with this. And this will draw a lot of criticism. But to any who do criticize I say remember, true 'all loving' cannot be imagined by anyone who disagrees (not even me as I also disagree, I want murderers to pay for their crimes, so that's probably one reason we reincarnate, there is no devil and no hell, that implies power over God which there is none) with what I'm about to say, because 'all loving, infinite forgiveness' implies otherwise.

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Stubbly_Dooright

I don't believe the "debate" about god's existence really has anything to do with evidence. It's about personality. No matter what you say, I won't believe it if you don't back it up with facts and reasoning. BUT: there are others who are not swayed by facts or reason. No matter how many facts are marshaled; no matter how impressive the reasoning, they are not impressed. So how do I communicate with/persuade them? I probably don't. The very things I would need to say to convince them make no sense to me. The very things they need to say to convince me, make no sense to them. Where does that leave us? In the middle of the creek, reaching for the paddle.

Doug

First off, you make sense to me on this. I hope I understood all of this, but are you talking on communicating with.persuading them

to leave you alone, or are you trying to think/believe like you? I hope I am assuming you are trying to persuade them to not change your mind. In which, I hear that. I would think, if I'm approached for the goal of someone wanting to change my belief to theirs, I would think I have the 'evidence' or the 'thought provoking' questions that would point out the fault in their arguments or their lectures. My goal would not be to change their views, but to realize they have nothing to change mine.

If they continue to believe, because what I say doesn't make sense to them, is not an invitation to continue to harass me to get me to believe like them. I would think, they would eventually come to realize, it's going to boil down to stalking, harassment, and the like and realize they over stepped their bounds.

I feel at a bit of a loss here I do not really understand spiritual experiences. When I used to surf a lot I would say that catching a barrel was what I felt was spiritual almost a religious experience same with the birth of my children but I am not sure that is what most refer to as spiritual.

I find that very honest of you to say. :) I would also think, that spiritual is also a kin to personal too, hence why it's something that cannot be viewed on an objective level, I guess.

If I look at it on another pov, I would think of spiritual as simple, not material or something that shows material evidence. I personally think, what you went through with the birth of your children, is probably close to this explanation if any. I maybe saying this, for I too have the same experience as you do, in having children, and I emphasis this from when I had my children. And yes, there is something deep down in the gut, the unlimited section of a person, that experiences this, but there is no evidence to show it actually happened. Only to the one who experiences it.

I have come to 'see' another side of living in my body, not just what is there and in front of me, or what is felt inside of me, that would show evidences, ( biology wise ), but a non-material, unlimited, non-seeing, but 'felt' in a different sense so to speak. The best I can explain it, is that we may have our usual senses, seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and there is the organ to get that, but actually sensing through your 'soul' or 'feelings' or 'persona', and that has not evidences to those aspects to show any evidence of that particular 'sense'.

I wouldn't say anyone is less of something for that, or someone else is more..................... 'crazy', because of it either. I just think we are all different and have our 'gifts' and point of views to have our own personal experiences and outlooks.

I really hope that has some understanding here. If not, give me another cup of coffee. :w00t:

But to go back my questioning my time of Atheism, I wonder if I really was. It gets confusing, I guess.

I figure that hair just has to glow in the dark so the underworld seemed fitting .....

I do think aptly put, just not aptly put in my head!!! It's enough that I have to be exposed to it on the level I am in my country.

Ack!

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Stubbly_Dooright

There is obviously an all loving God,having cured childhood cancer in the west he is now on his way to sort out the sectarian problems in Syria, after that poverty in Somalia, give the chap a break,he is only human and Xmas is coming up.On top of that he has to permit buggary in priests and organise sex amongst Christians,organise stonings and god knows what else.obviously his time is taken up.but I will say these two words to you god- the first starts with f,the second with o

That took me a second. Ok, Ok, it took a little longer, .................... but I got it.

On to that second cup of coffee.

I think there are circumstancial evidence of a Supreme Intelligence in nature if we care to look at it with an open mind.

And I would think there are circumstancial evidence of not one, if seen in the same open mind. I think it goes both ways. ;)
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XenoFish

Pray to the imaginary friend in the sky and get butthurt if other don't agree with you.

586fcb1ae6e76a9a22ed52ac0413a5f6.jpg

This one is for all you pagans out there.

Cat+ate+fish.png

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Davros of Skaro

Yep...No evidence for God. As for the Abrahamic God? Evidence points to it being a manmade myth just like the many other God myths.

People who want to believe have their minds to have a personal relationship with.

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XenoFish

Let's take the Chaote perspective on this god myth. For one god/s/ess and the like are just ideas. These little thought nuggets are often attached to some form of symbolism or imagery. They represent whatever beliefs went into creating them. The stronger the belief and the more they are used, the greater effect they have in the subconscious. If a large (10+) number of people who believe in the same "god" are together it is easier to influence them through religious suggestion due to this god-form. They will be more willing to believe you.

With this in mind we can see how mass hallucinations occur, like with Fatima. Or the fanatics who are willing to end their lives and the lives of others because of twisted beliefs.

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FTWind

Also, it is totally about lack of evidence.

Though how could you even provide evidence of such a thing? The fact is no one knows and for someone to claim a "god" dosent exist is ignorant in my mind. While on the other side to say one does as fact, is just as foolish. I believe there should be some form of middle gound in between the two. Something had to start this all. While im positive it is some scientifical process , the fact is that know one knows what started that scientifical process in the first place. Though what if the universe is a just a human construct of the mind and each individuals universe expands to there respective knowledge of it.

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Imaginarynumber1

Though how could you even provide evidence of such a thing? The fact is no one knows and for someone to claim a "god" dosent exist is ignorant in my mind. While on the other side to say one does as fact, is just as foolish. I believe there should be some form of middle gound in between the two. Something had to start this all. While im positive it is some scientifical process , the fact is that know one knows what started that scientifical process in the first place. Though what if the universe is a just a human construct of the mind and each individuals universe expands to there respective knowledge of it.

If a thing exists you can provide evidence of it. Period. Full stop. If there is no evidence, it is safe to assume it does not exist. Besides, I'm not the one making the claim there is a god, that's all you people. I follow the evidence. Also, as I said before, I could give a **** less if a god exists.

Should there be a middle ground between believing in unicorns? Or fairies? Or the Danish? No. Of course not. The concept of gods were created as explanations and a way of understanding ones place in the world, just like any myth.

The fact we don't yet know how our universe began does not mean the we will never know. You're just using a god of the gaps argument and that's a poor reason to have a god, simply because you don't know.

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Paranoid Android

As I understand it the bible makes no promise of enlightenment Paradise is dumbing the world down isn't it? The Lion shall lie with the sheep and so on. Does that not indicate that the environment will be altered not man? The pleasures sought but hard to come by are represented as reward in the Bible when referring to paradise which indicates man will think the same in heaven as he does on earth unless one prescribes to the earth being transformed into paradise which offers the same outcome.

It's both. Humans will be granted new, incorruptible spirit bodies, and the earth will be no more, replaced by new heavens and a new earth. If man was exactly the same in heaven then we'd be sinners in heaven, and we'd be right where we are now - separated from God by the evil of sin. We MUST have new bodies and new minds that are incapable of sin, if we are to spend eternity with God.
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FTWind

If a thing exists you can provide evidence of it. Period. Full stop. If there is no evidence, it is safe to assume it does not exist. Besides, I'm not the one making the claim there is a god, that's all you people. I follow the evidence. Also, as I said before, I could give a **** less if a god exists.

Should there be a middle ground between believing in unicorns? Or fairies? Or the Danish? No. Of course not. The concept of gods were created as explanations and a way of understanding ones place in the world, just like any myth.

The fact we don't yet know how our universe began does not mean the we will never know. You're just using a god of the gaps argument and that's a poor reason to have a god, simply because you don't know.

To compare a god to unicorns is even more ignorant. You give no signifigance tof the human consciousness. what if it is a cycle and one day the human conscious evolves through technology into a god like state where it could see the past present and future?
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Imaginarynumber1

To compare a god to unicorns is even more ignorant. You give no signifigance tof the human consciousness. what if it is a cycle and one day the human conscious evolves through technology into a god like state where it could see the past present and future?

That's literally wishful thinking. Re: follow the evidence.

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Podo

To compare a god to unicorns is even more ignorant. You give no signifigance tof the human consciousness. what if it is a cycle and one day the human conscious evolves through technology into a god like state where it could see the past present and future?

Gods are most likely fanciful stories invented by humans, exactly like unicorns. Deities deserve no more or less respect than magical horses with wish-granting horns because both are equally useless in effectively explaining our place in the universe.

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FTWind

That's literally wishful thinking. Re: follow the evidence.

My main point is no ones how or what started the universe but it is certain something did cause it..
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Imaginarynumber1

My main point is no ones how or what started the universe but it is certain something did cause it..

And throwing your hands in the air and saying god did it isn't an answer.

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Stubbly_Dooright

To compare a god to unicorns is even more ignorant.

Well, considering that god and unicorns are something that both do not have definite proof, that I don't see that as being ignorant in comparing them. I think he made a good point using the unicorns as an example.
You give no signifigance tof the human consciousness. what if it is a cycle and one day the human conscious evolves through technology into a god like state where it could see the past present and future?

Well, you are saying a 'what if' there, so in a sense, you can't be sure. As one cannot be sure, what we don't know now, doesn't mean we will still don't know in in the future.

I kind of agree with you on the middle ground, but that's me agreeing with you. Imaginary, I think, does make sense, and bringing up the fairies and unicorns example shows, well to me, a limit on how one should be considered when dealing with reality. Well, that's me, like I said again. :)

My main point is no ones how or what started the universe but it is certain something did cause it..

And what is that something? Are you considering that something in accordance to non-thinking, but scientific something?
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EEHC

And throwing your hands in the air and saying god did it isn't an answer.

The main theory I hear from atheists is that we are biological robots, living meaningless lives in a Universe that sprangs from 'nothing'.

Not sure that's a very convincing answer, IMO.

Edited by EEHC
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Imaginarynumber1

The main theory I hear from atheists is that we are biological robots, living meaningless lives in a Universe that sprangs from 'nothing'.

Not sure that's a very convincing answer, IMO.

It's not and I never said it was.

The idea of there being "nothing" that the universe came from is wrong. I don't know how many times I have to say that.

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Davros of Skaro

The main theory I hear from atheists is that we are biological robots, living meaningless lives in a Universe that sprangs from 'nothing'.

Not sure that's a very convincing answer, IMO.

Sounds more like propaganda against Atheism from Religious websites to me.

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Imaginarynumber1

Sounds more like propaganda against Atheism from Religious websites to me.

That's where the majority of believers seem to get their "Atheist's think.." quotes from, because no atheist, agnostic, apathesist, whatever-they-hell-they-want-to-call-themselves that I have ever known ever spouts the stupid crap that I always hear believers say when prefaced with "Well, atheists think..."

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Stubbly_Dooright

The main theory I hear from atheists is that we are biological robots, living meaningless lives in a Universe that sprangs from 'nothing'.

Not sure that's a very convincing answer, IMO.

Uh, what Atheists have you been communing with?!? :o

Seriously!

I'm not an Atheist, and I know quite a lot.......................... Hell, I have two children who are!

And not one of them say those things. Frankly, they pretty much have a more scientific and also a comforting philosophical way of looking at it, and it's not the cold hearted way that you think.

I would encourage you to get to know more Atheists. :yes::D

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GoldenWolf

I've seen intelligent atheists who became theists and I've also seen intelligent theists who turned atheists. I've come to the conclusion that the whole fuss in the debate of God's existence is not so much about evidence or lack of it as we make it look. I believe that the side on which many stand has more to do with how the hearts have been shaped by life's circumstances rather than evidence for or against. The evidence or lack of it therefore, is only used as a justification for what has already been concluded in the heart.

Former Chicago Tribune Editor, Lee Strobel said: "My road to atheism was paved by science... But, ironically, so was my journey back to God"

In his case, was it really about science or his heart. I can't judge.

I don't want to generalize it and assert that this is the case with everyone (it's definitely not), but if we are to search our hearts individually and be sincere with ourselves, is the whole debate at it's heart really about evidence or lack of it? This has been my thought for a while now.

What do y'all think?

It's about morality.

"God's" morals stink something really rank.

http://skepticsannot.../DWB/index.html

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

"The malignant narcissist is presented as pathologically grandiose, lacking in conscience and behavioral regulation with characteristic demonstrations of joyful cruelty and sadism"

https://en.wikipedia...nant_narcissism

Edited by Mystic Crusader
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and then

Fry puts it well:

Fry is a man looking to blame anything for the ills and evils of our world.

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you have ... and the Son of God, who has created and upholds all things by the word of his ..

Anyone who looks at the creation and denies a Creator is just kidding themselves. They also worship a god - but science is an ever changing deity. The great arrogance and misunderstanding of those who do not believe is that they assume they actually UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING about existence. Those who admit that they have no clue and choose not to believe in a God - I respect that. Those who look down the nose at people of faith and consider them fools are a type that is just not very likable. No one really can prove any of it to the satisfaction of those who disbelieve - unless the disbeliever is drawn by the Spirit. The day they stand before the Creator and say - "you didn't provide enough evidence" I suspect they will be shown they were greatly in error.

Edited by and then

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