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Roy Perry

some of you make the Claim there is no God

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Roy Perry

God belief and God unbelief

Some think I claim there no God but I have not any make claim?

01\30\2016

No can prove no way or another I make no claim do you claim there is not a God? While I like to see proof there no God it is mute thing to me.

a quote from Sherapy reply on topic What is your reason for belief/non-belief?

"Russell's teapot analogy is a strong criticism for the theist that if they make the claim for a God they have to provide the evidence."

that person must be a fool because it cannot be proven one way or another

I do hold no any ill feeling for Sherapy she just a quote from someone

I think she is a nice person

love Roy

Edited by Roy Perry

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Mr Walker

God belief and God unbelief

Some think I claim there no God but I have not any make claim?

01\30\2016

No can prove no way or another I make no claim do you claim there is not a God? While I like to see proof there no God it is mute thing to me.

a quote from Sherapy reply on topic What is your reason for belief/non-belief?

"Russell's teapot analogy is a strong criticism for the theist that if they make the claim for a God they have to provide the evidence."

that person must be a fool because it cannot be proven one way or another

I do hold no any ill feeling for Sherapy she just a quote from someone

I think she is a nice person

love Roy

Unless you KNOW god through a physical connection to him, then any statement about god is belief based Sherapy has a strong belief- based conviction that god does not exist. It is so strong and has been constructed, buttressed and reinforced, consciously by her for so long and so absolutely, that to her it is seems almost fact. or knowledge. it is such a powerful conviction, that in her mind it disallows other peoples' beliefs that god does exist, and even disallows another person's claim to know god .

Part of the problem is the nature and definition of god. Some gods are very real, powerful constructions of the human mind, but they are only physical in the sense that they exist as electro chemical structures in the human mind. They have great power to transform, and work miracles, but don't have a separate independent existence.

In my experience god also exists as a separate physical entity, who would continue if every human suddenly disappeared.

So the existence of a real independent and physical god is provable. The existence of god as a powerful construct of our mind is provable. But when people construct a pure faith- based belief in god (or indeed a similar disbelief) then neither of those is provable. if they WERE provable or evidenced, even if only to the individual, they would constitute knowledge and not belief

The WHOLE point about belief construction is that it exists outside of or beyond where we have knowledge. It occurs because we lack knowledge but require answers. If we could prove god was real, we could no longer construct a belief he was real. No one believes the sun is real. We all know it is real.

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Roy Perry

thanks davros of skaro

thank you, you see it the way I see is

your unbelief and my belief might made it a better world

love Roy

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Roy Perry

thanks Mr Walker

that why I do not blame Sherapy while I used statement to show a point I was trying to make

you believe in a God like being but we do not believe the same

because you are you and I am me

otherwise we are two different person

you see Sherapy unbelief is in her heart and my belief - unbelief is in my heart and your belief is in your heart

you see things differently than me

I believe I heard God talk to me but that just me it might of been something other than God we must truthful

Love Roy

Edited by Roy Perry
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Rlyeh

Which God we're talking about?

I find the Biblical one a bit incompetent and sadistic.

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BlackBearWolf

Isnt any belief in a god just like the placebo effect?

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fred_mc

Which God we're talking about?

I find the Biblical one a bit incompetent and sadistic.

Yes, at least the God in the Old Testament seems like that. The God in the New Testament seems much nicer, a forgiving God. However, somehow they are supposed to be the same God. Strange.

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Rlyeh

Yes, at least the God in the Old Testament seems like that. The God in the New Testament seems much nicer, a forgiving God. However, somehow they are supposed to be the same God. Strange.

He makes up for it in Revelation.
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Mr Walker

Which God we're talking about?

I find the Biblical one a bit incompetent and sadistic.

This is NOT a criticism of you but i have often found that we construct or interpret gods through our own world view.

This does NOT mean you are incompetent or sadistic but say( for example ) that in your past you might have come to connect authority and authority figures, with those two characteristics. Thus you might find god (the ultimate authority figure) to be incompetent and sadistic.

I might have had an entirety different (and perhaps more positive) relationship with the world, and with authority figures, and so I might read the bible and see the god in it is a loving being, doing all it can to guide us, without taking away our freedom to grow and evolve (because that was how all the authority figures in my life had been, for example)

A third person might interpret the same god in a very different way, again.

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Mr Walker

Isnt any belief in a god just like the placebo effect?

Does it matter, if it is a highly effective placebo effect, with multiple positive outcomes?

Belief certainly has real, and highly positive, physical and psychological effects in/on our body and mind, which create huge benefits for us. Is that the working of god, or an evolved positive response to belief? Again, does it really matter ?

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Rlyeh

This is NOT a criticism of you but i have often found that we construct or interpret gods through our own world view.

What did you think of Osama bin Laden?

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Stubbly_Dooright

God belief and God unbelief

Some think I claim there no God but I have not any make claim?

01\30\2016

No can prove no way or another I make no claim do you claim there is not a God? While I like to see proof there no God it is mute thing to me.

a quote from Sherapy reply on topic What is your reason for belief/non-belief?

"Russell's teapot analogy is a strong criticism for the theist that if they make the claim for a God they have to provide the evidence."

that person must be a fool because it cannot be proven one way or another

I do hold no any ill feeling for Sherapy she just a quote from someone

I think she is a nice person

love Roy

I too, agree that Sheri is a very nice person. I also hold the thought, that she is a very well versed, well read, and well considerate person. It's a no brainer, that I find her to very intellligent. I think you have intelligence in the core of your posts.

I see Sheri using what she has learned, read, researched, and proved (linked) very thoughtful resources that link to the conclusions she has come to.

The quote she used makes sense to me at least, because if one is trying to prove something that is not objective, they will need evidence. No one can chose to believe, I have come by experience, because believing comes from an action that causes you to believe, or something close to that then leads holding a belief.

I like what is said here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intense-emotions-and-strong-feelings/201210/feeling-is-believing

Your beliefs will guide you whether or not they are in your best interest. Maybe you believe that you are incapable of having a healthy intimate relationship, or that you aren’t attractive to others, or think you will not live a long life. Or perhaps you have a strong conviction that you are very lucky, or that people in general are basically good and trustworthy. Whatever the belief may be, you hold it as a truth and perceive that those who disagree with you are thinking irrationally since, when it comes to beliefs, there is often no common evidence upon which agreement can be reached. Nevertheless, your beliefs, whether they are within your conscious awareness or not, direct and influence your life.

It’s only in recent decades that we’ve recognized and validated that emotions are a powerful attention directing system—an amplification device—in our brain. They are responsible for creating the visceral responses regarded as feelings, that in turn are transformed into thoughts and the formation of beliefs to help us make sense of what we experience at the moment and to use for future reference. Even the most simple beliefs have emotional memory at their core, such as a certain food, person, or place that may no longer appeal to you following an experience that resulted in you having a disgust response.

Logic may inform you that life experiences dictate the conclusions we draw and form thecognitive constructions that lead us to believe what we do. However, it is not simply that past experiences determine how we view and approach the present based on beliefs we’ve created and hold. Instead, our present beliefs are governed by past experiences that are linked to unconscious emotional memories.

I think it's fine for one's belief to hold true for themselves, and only themselves. I would think it wouldn't depend how many experiences one has to come to their belief, but since one is trying to convince someone else, I would think the same route would need to be taken, (the others having the same experiences to cause belief) for them to believe without any trouble.

I can see how you come to your own personal beliefs, so you shouldn't feel that anyone else could pursuade you. I know, that Sheri is not the person who wants to pursuade anyone else, but is content with what she holds dear to herself as she would encourage others to hold what they hold dear for themselves. I see her point in the quote, and I see it through a unorthodox believer's eyes. I guess, that is because I don't think pushing anyone else to believe like I do, is what I should do. Actually, I feel the opposite. I feel we all should come to our own conclusions, because that is the true person within us.

Isnt any belief in a god just like the placebo effect?

You know, that is an interesting question. I can see how it can be, but if one thinks one has experiences to help them, is it a placebo effect? (wow very deep I'm thinking here. :o )

But, then again, I can see how others would view it as something a kin to a placebo effect, because the real 'medicine' is not there, and it's the brain doing it's thing.

I still think, for me anyways ;) , that there is more to it than the medicine not being there. :D

But, that is me. :w00t:

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Mr Walker

What did you think of Osama bin Laden?

He was a handsome intelligent and heroic figure, beloved of men and women of the true faith , and a positive example to muslim freedom fighters every where. He was martyred by the Christian/ Zionist crusaders, intent on oppressing the muslim peoples and defying our ultimate destiny to establish a world wide caliphate. :wub:

Or at least that is a position I COULD rationally hold, if i was not who I am, from an accident of birth and circumstance. I can see and understand why people from other back grounds would legitimately believe such a statement to be true.

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Sherapy

God belief and God unbelief

Some think I claim there no God but I have not any make claim?

01\30\2016

No can prove no way or another I make no claim do you claim there is not a God? While I like to see proof there no God it is mute thing to me.

a quote from Sherapy reply on topic What is your reason for belief/non-belief?

"Russell's teapot analogy is a strong criticism for the theist that if they make the claim for a God they have to provide the evidence."

that person must be a fool because it cannot be proven one way or another

I do hold no any ill feeling for Sherapy she just a quote from someone

I think she is a nice person

love Roy

Hi Roy,

My point for using Russell's Teapot analogy was to support an argument I was involved in at the time on the (non-belief belief) thread, it was one of a few examples given In context of that argument on that thread. My point for using it at that juncture was I didn't think it was inappropriate or meaningless to ask for the reasons a person argues for the existence of God,( theist) or against the existence of a God( atheist).

I also used Decartes, Aquinas, and St Augustine in my examples to imply there are all kinds of philosophical arguments for and against God, that are not pointless to evaluate.

We have theists, agnostics, pagans, and Atheists and all kinds of paths on UM, I was agreeing with LG stating I was with him in considering any argument, regardless of the side one is on.

For me, it's about the argument ( the reasons) and I am open to hearing anyone out; I don't automatically exclude them because they are a theist or an Athiest, pagan or an agnostic.

Hell, I may even change my mind on things. And if I counter against God I back it up with reasons, if I counter for God I back it up.

I know you meant no harm Roy, but in the future PM me and ask me for clarity as opposed to starting a thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Edited by Sherapy
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Roy Perry

thanks Sherapy

that was a nice talk I had with you

I will do in the future

I can quote many fools of both sides

love Roy

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Sherapy

thanks Sherapy

that was a nice talk I had with you

I will do in the future

I can quote many fools of both sides

love Roy

Hi Roy,

I don't think it's foolish to evaluate claims, granted we may find some silly, or we may understand something in a new way. Russell's teapot analogy makes a good point, regardless of the side, it is appropriate to ask for evidence ( reasons) on any claims.

Edited by Sherapy
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White Crane Feather

The a accepted truth of something as far as human knowledge goes is merely a set of evidences that have been interpreted certain ways.

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Hammerclaw

Yes, Sheri is right. If you don't want to be pressed for evidence, and aren't thick-skinned enough to weather the storm of controversy and disbelief, confine yourself within the secure bastions of Faith and stay out of such worldly discussions. Myself, I follow the example of my Lord and enter any place where I am welcome with an understanding and forgiving heart. Of course, not being perfect, I sometimes fall prey to the heat of the discussion. A few scrapes and bruises are to expected on the sidewalks of life.

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Sherapy

Yes, Sheri is right. If you don't want to be pressed for evidence, and aren't thick-skinned enough to weather the storm of controversy and disbelief, confine yourself within the secure bastions of Faith and stay out of such worldly discussions. Myself, I follow the example of my Lord and enter any place where I am welcome with an understanding and forgiving heart. Of course, not being perfect, I sometimes fall prey to the heat of the discussion. A few scrapes and bruises are to expected on the sidewalks of life.

Well said my friend,

Same with me Hammer (who happens to be a theist I respect),I try to live and let live and my bestie ( Sharon) on here walks in faith; I like every thing she says and learn a lot from her, yes, I said I learn a lot from her! And, on occasssion I jump in for an Athiest tussle, or sometimes I am having an agnostic day and want to challenge myself to see things broader, and at times I see the theists point of view and think wow what a good point, I have yet to meet a pagan I didn't come away richer for it. And, it doesn't matter the label, a good reason is a good reason, and I want a chance to hear it.

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy

The a accepted truth of something as far as human knowledge goes is merely a set of evidences that have been interpreted certain ways.

I don't think there is an accepted way; I think there are good reasons and not so good reasons, and I am open to hearing them and at times hashing it out, marshaling it out, refining. Many a good point has been made via a lot of ways.

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw

Well said my friend,

Same with me Hammer (who happens to be a theist I respect),I try to live and let live and my bestie ( Sharon) on here walks in faith; I like every thing she says and learn a lot from her, yes, I said I learn a lot from her! And, on occasssion I jump in for an Athiest tussle, or sometimes I am having an agnostic day and want to challenge myself to see things broader, and at times I see the theists point of view and think wow what a good point, I have yet to meet a pagan I didn't come away richer for it. And, it doesn't matter the label, a good reason is a good reason, and I want a chance to hear it.

I'd be lying if I said I like everything you say---but I sure do love the way you say it! Don't ever change. :tu:
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Sherapy

I'd be lying if I said I like everything you say---but I sure do love the way you say it! Don't ever change. :tu:

Awww, thanks Hammer. :)

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