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Roy Perry

some of you make the Claim there is no God

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Mr Walker
name='Podo' timestamp='1454459224' post='5761825'

No, no it isn't. If I see a bear, I can take a picture to prove it. If a cougar walks across my lawn, I can take a picture of a footprint or make a cast of its impressions. If I catch a big fish, I can take a photo or provide the meat of that fish to say "hey, look, this is proof that I caught a big fish." Collecting empirical evidence is NOT impossible, at all. Some things? Sure, intangible stuff, like the northern lights, or a pretty sunset, but again, photographs exist and everyone has a camera on their smartphone, and millions of people have photographed both of those things. If you don't gather any proof, however, there simply is no proof that it happened. A person could plausibly believe that a cougar walked across my lawn, but if I have no proof then I can't expect them to unquestioningly believe me. The same goes for deities, and the same goes for EVERYTHING.

No, I have to BELIEVE that this was a bear you encountered and not a snap form the internet. You know you encountered it but your photo proves nothing to me. You are making my point for me. YOU can know from the physical evidences available to you that real and not imaginary cougar walked over your lawn, but if i chose not to believe you, you have nothing to prove to me that it did. I have to acceptyour word for it or not.

God can be photographed when it manifests in physical form but how could you know it was a photo of god ?

Unless you gather evidence (pictures, physical traces, etc) then you can't. As I have previously said, the reality of a thing is divorced from the evidence of a thing. If the alien thing happens, even if it is entirely real, if you can't prove it there is no reason to believe that it happened. Evidence supporting a thing is entirely separate from the existence of that thing. Once again, you can tell the story and some people may believe you, but if you don't have proof you can't get mad if they do not.

Again we are talking at cross purposes. i am talking about how I can know with absolute surety that god exists. you are asking how i can transfer the proofs and evidences which convinced me over to you I cant but that doesn't make them unreal. or non existent. ANY real thing can quite easily be verified by a single individual to have indpendent existence using the scientific method.

There is no reason for another person to believe you encountered an alien but if you met one and still cant personally believe/accept that you did, despite your personal proofs and evidences, then you are in trouble.

No, no, you're just simply wrong. There ARE ways to prove it. If you didn't collect that evidence, or you couldn't, then you don't have proof. Same with your dinner last night. You COULD have proved it, it's POSSIBLE, but since you didn't record it, you now can't. Whether what you say you ate is true or not is irrelevant in the face of a lack of evidence. As I have said many, many times, the truth is divorced from the evidence. You could take a video of yourself eating, for example; that would prove what you say about what you ate. Likewise, you could have photos or video of the alien. If you couldn't or wouldn't take steps to gather evidence, then no, you can't prove it. It's that simple.

What you are saying here is that, because i cant give you proofs of what I ate i did not not eat them, or at the very least that, if i can't offer you such proofs i can not be absolutely sure what i ate for tea last night . Thats just silly.

Now suppose i gave you a photo, or even a video, of our meal (my brother in law took some as it was his sons 39th birthday) You have to BELIEVE many things about the evidence in order to accept it. You even have to believe my truthfulness, purpose and motivations in telling you what i ate. How can you KNOW ia photo or video represents what i claim it represents, for example The evidences are separate from the reality. They do not establish the reality nor do they prove it to be true. Only being there can do that. The reality existed even without any physical transferable evidences that it did. I know. I was there.

If someone chooses not to believe something that has withstood rigorous quality testing and then declared legitimate, that's an entirely different situation because that person is clearly not interested in having their mind changed. The existence of a physical, tangible thing is not something that needs to be experienced. I know that Australia exists without having been there. I know that platypuses exist without having seen or touched one. I know that atoms exist without having touched them (consciously, anyway). If atoms can be empirically proven, and the northern lights, and pretty sunsets, and cougars walking across lawns, then so can a deity. If it exists, anyway.

You see, this is wrong. You have a strong confirmed belief that Australia exists but you cant truly know it does, until you've experienced it being so So you don't know for sure that platypus or northern lights exist. You have let others convince you they do and taken the word and evidences provided by others on faith We all do this. And yes i agree A physically existent deity, like all physically existent things, can be empirically proven to exist You just have to have the technology to do so.

.

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Roy Perry

hi everyone

I once try to prove the word of God is the will of God

I read way oner 1,000,000 verses in what I believe was God word

but then God told me who took credit for the bible

while I read King James bible and what I read in credits of my Bible

Made me think

It read To the Most High and Mighty Prince James by the grace ................"

otherwise King James was taking the credit for that book

is that not wrong for any book that you did not write

you see I have try it and I say try it three times to show them your gold to then if refuse to see it keep your gold with you

other wise do not trow your peals at swine because they will not want them

and goes for both sides

love Roy

Edited by Roy Perry
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Hammerclaw

I watched the whole video, and you are correct as is Podo, we know very little at this point, we are at current looking for a simulation signature and this is even if it exists and this is contingent on there is so much we don't know.

Which seems to be appropriate when a study starts out by saying hypothesis.

Then, financially it is very expensive, it is interesting though, just not fruitful at this point.

If I am understanding this correctly, and if not your feedback is appreciated.

Oh your understanding is impeccable. The thing about the Universe as a simulation is--when did the simulation start? Billions of years ago, or was just ten thousand years? Hence my Omphalos argument reference, which is basically: The Universe is just ten thousand years old--the creator just made it look older. Edited by Hammerclaw
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Sherapy

When are people going to learn

That guess was nice but that all it was a guess

even I saw through that guess

with my poor grammar I know it is a waste of time to try to prove something that you cannot see

just like it a waste to unproved it too

Love Roy

Poor grammar or not there is nothing wrong with your ability to think critically and understand the difference between perspective and perception.

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy

thank you Sherapy

love Roy

Roy, you are an example of what is possible if one is open to the effort and humbleness that goes into trying to nurture a quality mind.

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Sherapy

Oh your understanding is impeccable. The thing about the Universe as a simulation is--when did the simulation start? Billions of years ago, or was just ten thousand years? Hence my Omphalos argument reference, which is basically: The Universe is just ten thousand years old--the creator just made it look older.

Oh good, thanks for the feedback.

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Hammerclaw

Um, then what is "the real one" and how do you know the model is not accurate? Modern mathematics combined with what we know scientifically about the component elements of the universe almost proves mathematically that the universe must be a multi verse, if the maths and our current knowledge is correct. So should one accept that modelling or not?

The one we live in with unknown properties, whereas in a computer simulation of the universe all input data is known and quantified. I don't know and have little reason to believe anything.
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Stubbly_Dooright

I think your giving me far to much. It's only important to me as it is stimulating. I'm an agnostic at heart leaning towards theism. An agnostic theist.

Yes I suppose I could flesh all of it out in a wall of text, and I think I have a few times in other places. But no need. He knows what I'm talking about and understands my argument now.

Okaaaay, if you say so. *shrugs*

:)

The universe is a projected halographic simulation.

Therefore R2-D2 is God.

cmb_timeline-r2d2-4e32ca5-intro.jpg

I can go for that. :yes:

Oh no, I'll cherry-pick my own link and post that. In the meantime, you do yourself a great disservice by posting conjecture and prattling on as though it were fact. http://www.universet...not-a-hologram/

Niiiiiiiiiiiice! :D

I watched the whole video, and you are correct as is Podo, we know very little at this point, we are at current looking for a simulation signature and this is even if it exists and this is contingent on there is so much we don't know.

Which seems to be appropriate when a study starts out by saying hypothesis.

Then, financially it is very expensive, it is interesting though, just not fruitful at this point.

If I am understanding this correctly, and if not your feedback is appreciated.

I'll have to look at Hammerclaw's video later. Going back and forth between the two and the subjects discussed, I feel I need to watch a handful of 'Big Bang Theory' episodes to get a slight understanding.

No?!

Just kidding! ;)

Seriously, I have to reflect on that and see what I come up with. *shrugs*

Everything is Podo's fault! That guy sucks! :tu:

Podo is huggleboo! :D:w00t:

Me hugs you!!! ((( :w00t: )))

hi everyone

I once try to prove the word of God is the will of God

I read way oner 1,000,000 verses in what I believe was God word

but then God told me who took credit for the bible

while I read King James bible and what I read in credits of my Bible

Made me think

It read To the Most High and Mighty Prince James by the grace ................"

otherwise King James was taking the credit for that book

is that not wrong for any book that you did not write

you see I have try it and I say try it three times to show them your gold to then if refuse to see it keep your gold with you

other wise do not trow your peals at swine because they will not want them

and goes for both sides

love Roy

I think you answered a question I had for someone else............in another thread somewhere.......

which ever.................. nicely put. :tu::)

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Podo

No, I have to BELIEVE that this was a bear you encountered and not a snap form the internet. You know you encountered it but your photo proves nothing to me. You are making my point for me. YOU can know from the physical evidences available to you that real and not imaginary cougar walked over your lawn, but if i chose not to believe you, you have nothing to prove to me that it did. I have to acceptyour word for it or not.

God can be photographed when it manifests in physical form but how could you know it was a photo of god ?

Again we are talking at cross purposes. i am talking about how I can know with absolute surety that god exists. you are asking how i can transfer the proofs and evidences which convinced me over to you I cant but that doesn't make them unreal. or non existent. ANY real thing can quite easily be verified by a single individual to have indpendent existence using the scientific method.

There is no reason for another person to believe you encountered an alien but if you met one and still cant personally believe/accept that you did, despite your personal proofs and evidences, then you are in trouble.

What you are saying here is that, because i cant give you proofs of what I ate i did not not eat them, or at the very least that, if i can't offer you such proofs i can not be absolutely sure what i ate for tea last night . Thats just silly.

Now suppose i gave you a photo, or even a video, of our meal (my brother in law took some as it was his sons 39th birthday) You have to BELIEVE many things about the evidence in order to accept it. You even have to believe my truthfulness, purpose and motivations in telling you what i ate. How can you KNOW ia photo or video represents what i claim it represents, for example The evidences are separate from the reality. They do not establish the reality nor do they prove it to be true. Only being there can do that. The reality existed even without any physical transferable evidences that it did. I know. I was there.

You see, this is wrong. You have a strong confirmed belief that Australia exists but you cant truly know it does, until you've experienced it being so So you don't know for sure that platypus or northern lights exist. You have let others convince you they do and taken the word and evidences provided by others on faith We all do this. And yes i agree A physically existent deity, like all physically existent things, can be empirically proven to exist You just have to have the technology to do so.

.

You've said a lot of dumb stuff, but you've hit a new level of crazy. Australia is real. There is enough supporting evidence, such as photos, videos, history books, photos from space, and the minor detail of actually having met Australians that I don't need to have been there to know it is real. If you truly think that things can't be proven without actually experiencing them, I am genuinely confused as to how you interact with the world on a day to day basis.

It explains why you're so rude and arrogant, however. You haven't met anyone in person on these boards, so you don't believe any of us exist.

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Sherapy

Okaaaay, if you say so. *shrugs*

:)

I can go for that. :yes:

Niiiiiiiiiiiice! :D

I'll have to look at Hammerclaw's video later. Going back and forth between the two and the subjects discussed, I feel I need to watch a handful of 'Big Bang Theory' episodes to get a slight understanding.

No?!

Just kidding! ;)

Seriously, I have to reflect on that and see what I come up with. *shrugs*

Podo is huggleboo! :D:w00t:

Me hugs you!!! ((( :w00t: )))

I think you answered a question I had for someone else............in another thread somewhere.......

which ever.................. nicely put. :tu::)

I'd say just watch the last 15 minutes, the conclusion, it wraps things up nicely. (I did watch the whole thing though, it's 57 minutes).

And Hammer conforms my understanding is spot on, girl the math in this video is no joke. :)

I appreciated that Hammer posted it.

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw

It's definitely something to watch after you coffee up. The guy is good but doesn't quite have the hang of talking mathematical concepts yet, but will age well into the roll. He has an open, inquisitive mind and an infectious zeal for pushing the envelope of physics into unknown territory. I don't pretend to comprehend half of what he said, but am impressed by his personality, intelligence and honest humility.

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Sherapy

It's definitely something to watch after you coffee up. The guy is good but doesn't quite have the hang of talking mathematical concepts yet, but will age well into the roll. He has an open, inquisitive mind and an infectious zeal for pushing the envelope of physics into unknown territory. I don't pretend to comprehend half of what he said, but am impressed by his personality, intelligence and honest humility.

Indeed, he is a younger professor, and as you will say he will find his stage presence, and I'd agree his never say "impossible" is inspiring, but he makes it really clear we don't know much and at best we are looking for any liner undergirds in these simulations and he also said if they are there. So while this is exciting it was more then fair for you to suggest slowing down for those that are signing the dotted line already. Hammer what is your background if I may ask?

One more thing, In the beginning of the video he references a philosophical argument which I intend to read also, again I really love that you took the time to help us get our toes wet. I am working on philosophy right now in college critical thinking and analysis, and logic and have a few more courses to get through, but I intend to take physics perhaps this summer. I think I need too. :) You have given me the nudge I needed Hammer.

If you have blue tooth Sharon you can run YouTube through your phone on your car radio ( you probably already know this) and listen to in on your way to work. :)

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw

Mr Walker, God bless his soul, is a master of sophistry and guile and I'm continually amazed at how otherwise intelligent people are repeatedly ensnared by his adroitly woven webs of ambiguities. I'm quite sure he enjoys their dismay and consternation, immensely. :nw: (Be careful. The irony in this post may drip on you.)

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Mr Walker

The one we live in with unknown properties, whereas in a computer simulation of the universe all input data is known and quantified. I don't know and have little reason to believe anything.

Now that is a a fairer summation. I don't believe we live in a simulation, either. At the moment we cant know.

I suspect in the next couple of centuries we will have a lot clearer idea . Personally i think the entire universe is knowable given time but that is my own interpretation . i don't think there are multi verses unfortunately, although the universe is more complex and convoluted than we have discovered yet. So far i see an evolving universe(within a linear time stream) which originated at some time and may end at another time

BUT human-like self aware intelligence is potentially so powerful when combined with the abilty to physically manipulate matter via tools and technology, that i can see US (let alone gods or more advanced/evolved older beings) manipulating the unverse and even altering parts of it, staving off entropy perhaps going through wormholes into other "universes" etc.

Humans have shown that If we can imagine something, then, given time, we can achieve it.

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Davros of Skaro

So does anyone here claim there is "no God"?

I just don't believe in any.

flying_spaghetti_monster_by_cpnhowdie.jpg

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Mr Walker

You've said a lot of dumb stuff, but you've hit a new level of crazy. Australia is real. There is enough supporting evidence, such as photos, videos, history books, photos from space, and the minor detail of actually having met Australians that I don't need to have been there to know it is real. If you truly think that things can't be proven without actually experiencing them, I am genuinely confused as to how you interact with the world on a day to day basis.

It explains why you're so rude and arrogant, however. You haven't met anyone in person on these boards, so you don't believe any of us exist.

I know australia is real because i live here How do you KNOW for certain that it is.? The answer is that you have a belief, justified by extensive secondary evidences that it is real. In reality you are right enough of course we can be certain enough of many things to live with them without being absolutely certain of that knowledge.

If you research the nature of knowledge and belief you will see what I am talking about.

Why then, do I yabber on about it so pedantically/ Because UNLESS you comprehend this basic truth you come to false conclusions like you have For example the conclusion that an individual cannot, alone, ascertain reality or have evidences and proofs of things. You are lead to a belief that we require independent validation in order to KNOW something when the precise opposite is true.

We can all know ONLY what we know from personal experience. But we can absolutely know to be true that which we can validate scientifically from our own experience and that is ALL we can absolutely know.

I don't see myself as rude or arrogant. That is a mental construct or perception created in the minds of others, based on how they react to what i post. I can understand that reaction but find it amusing. I am meticulously non rude personally to people, except under extreme provocation but i don't use some social conventions because i find them false and misleading. For example i don't find it rude , but rather my duty or social responsibility, to educate the ignorant, and to try and help people improve themselves their lives and their societies. .

Do you find it rude tha t i insist i am always right? How about if i insisted i was always wrong? Would you be happier then?

i am always as right as the evidences i have available to me allow me to be. What i argue for works, and is true, for me. i am human so it will also work for any human being.

It is not/never the only truth by a long way, but my truth is always workable, effective, productive and constructive. I can recommend it because i know form experience that it works and is beneficial. Other things might also work but i cant recommend them because i have no experience with them.

I tell the truth as i see it, and have no room/time for people who can't or won't think clearly logically and rationally. They pose a danger to them selves and those around them.

Some see this as arrogant or rude. Being a devotee of MR Spock i see it as efficient and logical.

In general i connect to the world like everyone else, but better :) I have spent my life learning how to use my mind and how to imrove my human potentials For example I have an IQ which tests out on various tests as high as 180 and as low as 140 but i spent years learning how to achieve this i can read a page as fast as i can turn it . I wont go on but i am highly successful and skilled in engaging with the real world. I ENJOY every minute of my life and am never bored, scared, angry, lonely, depressed, hateful envious jealous etc.

My PHYSICAL prowess has lessened with age but so far my mental skills and abilities continue to improve. I have spent my life doing what i love and learning new skills, abilities, sports, games etc., surrounded by people who love and respect me . I reached the highest level possible in WOW online and at weekly games nights play over a dozen modern board games like CATAN or Contagion. I say all this to show that I am highly connected to my world For ten years in my fifties I was a geocacher, taking young people geocaching, and I have hidden dozens of caches.

I couldn't ask for a better or more fortunate life, although some of this is the result of years of hard work, discipline, and effort. (and some is luck and the empowerment and tutoring of the cosmic consciousness)

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Mr Walker

Mr Walker, God bless his soul, is a master of sophistry and guile and I'm continually amazed at how otherwise intelligent people are repeatedly ensnared by his adroitly woven webs of ambiguities. I'm quite sure he enjoys their dismay and consternation, immensely. :nw: (Be careful. The irony in this post may drip on you.)

I am, IMO the most honest and guileless person on this board. (but then i truly only know myself and not any of you) I always say exaclty what i mean, honestly and without fear or favour. And THAT is what gets me into trouble

I don't seek conflict but wont avoid it I LIKE/love human beings and would NEVER seek to hurt one, or to gain satisfaction form the pain of another. i dont NEED to beliettle or hurt another person to make myself feel better, because i am strong/powerful, love myself without reservation, and have high self esteem

I want others to have these qualities too but gain them honestly and hold them unashamedly.

I see them as me and i want to help them improve themselves, be happier, safer, healthier, and more powerful human beings. there is a selfish element tin this also because this would make humanity safer more compassionate and caring as well as more productive and constructive

Humans WASTE so much of their potential and could do so much more in our such short lifetimes. WE CAN and so we MUST, do better. It would be EASY to eliminate starvation hunger and poverty in this world given our overall resources and wealth, and our technological capabilities but it is our evolved primate nature which prevents this. Thus we MUST consciously and deliberately change who we are, in order to improve our world And each one of us can only change ourselves. But that is ALL we need to do.

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Mr Walker

So does anyone here claim there is "no God"?

I just don't believe in any.

flying_spaghetti_monster_by_cpnhowdie.jpg

Could you explain the actual real difference in those two things, as you understand it?

If you believe there is no god, and you state that belief to another, is that not a claim that, in your mind, no gods exist?. How can you believe no gods exist, then allow that they might?

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Hammerclaw

I am, IMO the most honest and guileless person on this board. (but then i truly only know myself and not any of you) I always say exaclty what i mean, honestly and without fear or favour. And THAT is what gets me into trouble

I don't seek conflict but wont avoid it I LIKE/love human beings and would NEVER seek to hurt one, or to gain satisfaction form the pain of another. i dont NEED to beliettle or hurt another person to make myself feel better, because i am strong/powerful, love myself without reservation, and have high self esteem

I want others to have these qualities too but gain them honestly and hold them unashamedly.

I see them as me and i want to help them improve themselves, be happier, safer, healthier, and more powerful human beings. there is a selfish element tin this also because this would make humanity safer more compassionate and caring as well as more productive and constructive

Humans WASTE so much of their potential and could do so much more in our such short lifetimes. WE CAN and so we MUST, do better. It would be EASY to eliminate starvation hunger and poverty in this world given our overall resources and wealth, and our technological capabilities but it is our evolved primate nature which prevents this. Thus we MUST consciously and deliberately change who we are, in order to improve our world And each one of us can only change ourselves. But that is ALL we need to do.

R-i-i-i-i-g-h-t. You old devil, you! :yes:
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Hammerclaw

Now that is a a fairer summation. I don't believe we live in a simulation, either. At the moment we cant know.

I suspect in the next couple of centuries we will have a lot clearer idea . Personally i think the entire universe is knowable given time but that is my own interpretation . i don't think there are multi verses unfortunately, although the universe is more complex and convoluted than we have discovered yet. So far i see an evolving universe(within a linear time stream) which originated at some time and may end at another time

BUT human-like self aware intelligence is potentially so powerful when combined with the abilty to physically manipulate matter via tools and technology, that i can see US (let alone gods or more advanced/evolved older beings) manipulating the unverse and even altering parts of it, staving off entropy perhaps going through wormholes into other "universes" etc.

Humans have shown that If we can imagine something, then, given time, we can achieve it.

Yes. Or we're just arrogant specks of protoplasm, puffed up with pride because our species mastered fire and became adept at chipping flint. Talking monkeys with monstrous egos. Flukes of the Universe that just happened to evolve courtesy of an unlikely set of circumstances. Without divine providence, it's the most likely scenario.What a piece of work is a man!
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Podo

Yes. Or we're just arrogant specks of protoplasm, puffed up with pride because our species mastered fire and became adept at chipping flint. Talking monkeys with monstrous egos. Flukes of the Universe that just happened to evolve courtesy of an unlikely set of circumstances. Without divine providence, it's the most likely scenario.What a piece of work is a man!

I'm the best flint-chipping-ape on the block. My flint chips bring all the boys to the yard.

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Mr Walker

Yes. Or we're just arrogant specks of protoplasm, puffed up with pride because our species mastered fire and became adept at chipping flint. Talking monkeys with monstrous egos. Flukes of the Universe that just happened to evolve courtesy of an unlikely set of circumstances. Without divine providence, it's the most likely scenario.What a piece of work is a man!

Shakespeare meant that as praise of mankind (I think) "How noble in reason How infinite in faculty" Hamlet is depressed he KNOWS what man is capable of but he sees how badly they behave yet he recognise their potential qualities.

" In action how like an angel. in apprehension how like a god. " I learned this at school but i really remember it from my 33 recording of the original "Hhair" where it was put to music to form a song

What a piece of work is man

How noble in reason

How infinite in faculties

In form and moving how express and admirable

In action how like an angel

In apprehension how like a god

The beauty of the world

The paragon of animals

I have of late

But wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth

This goodly frame

The earth seems to me a sterile promontory

This most excellent canopy

The air look you

This brave o'erhanging firmament

This majestical roof

Fretted with golden fire

Why it appears no other thing to me

Than a foul and pestilent congregation

Of vapors

What a piece of work is man

How noble in reason

Songwriters

James Rado;Gerome Ragni;Galt Mac Dermot

Read more: Hair - What A Piece Of Work Is Man Lyrics | MetroLyrics

http://www.metrolyri...yrics-hair.html

It does not matter how we got here. What matters is what we do from now.

Using fire or colliding particles in search of dark matter. Domesticating a horse to ride on, or travelling via matter transmission. These are ALL, only the first steps on the journey of mankind .

Edited by Mr Walker

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Nuclear Wessel

Now that is a a fairer summation. I don't believe we live in a simulation, either. At the moment we cant know.

Replace "can't" with "don't" and I agree with you. We don't know, but that doesn't mean that we can't know.

Personally i think the entire universe is knowable given time but that is my own interpretation

Just out of sheer curiosity but why do you think that the entire universe is knowable when it hasn't even been determined if the universe is a finite or infinite thing? It may be finite, it may be infinite... the answer at this moment is that we just... simply do not know.

Humans have shown that If we can imagine something, then, given time, we can achieve it.

Not necessarily. We can imagine things all that we wish, but that doesn't mean that we will ever be able to achieve everything that we imagine. There may be some limitations.

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