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Merc14

Let's talk about Bernie

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"It's disheartening that an avowed socialist is a viable candidate for president of the United States. Socialism is a dead end. For hundreds of years, it has failed everywhere it's been adopted. The enthusiasm of our youth for the candidacy of Bernie Sanders is a symptom of our failure to educate them, not only in history, government and economics, but also basic morality."

You don't have to be a student of ancient history to know socialism doesn't work. The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1989 was an unequivocal demonstration of the moral and economic superiority of capitalism. The misery caused by socialism is unfolding today in Venezuela. Since Venezuela embraced socialism in 1999, poverty, crime and corruption have all increased. Grocery shelves are empty and the annual inflation rate is estimated to be as high as 200 percent." Onan Coca

UK, France, Canada it is working, the USA claims to be the most powerful and she can`t make education/healthcare work? And only because he isn`t a billionaire/millionaire he would be a bad president, what kind of logic is that? So you say all people except of view are incompetent because they are not millionaires? Sanders is often referring to the middle, with a net worth of 300000 $, he obviously knows what he is talking about. Also, what has Sanders to do with the Soviet Union?

Edited by hellwyr
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questionmark

UK, France, Canada it is working, the USA claims to be the most powerful and she can`t make education/healthcare work? And only because he isn`t a billionaire/millionaire he would be a bad president, what kind of logic is that? So you say all people except of view are incompetent because they are not millionaires? Sanders is often referring to the middle, with a net worth of 300000 $, he obviously knows what he is talking about. Also, what has Sanders to do with the Soviet Union?

Besides the little fact that the second richest man to ever hold the US presidency is not precisely an advertisement for rich guys in power. His name? Herbert Hoover (The richest was the first Prezz, Washington).

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Not Your Huckleberry

You know, after actually reading about Bernie Sanders, I have reached a conclusion. He may not be the best politician- or even a good one. But out of the whole lot, Republican and Democrat alike, he seems to be the best at being a human.

Some folks might hate me for saying it, but I don't care. I'd never vote for the guy, but I think he may very well be the most honest person running. At least he's up front about what you'll be getting with him.

Establishment Democrat: "lol omg wtf I'm so not a socialist lol"

Bernie: "**** yea I'm a socialist! Problem, brah?!"

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Tatetopa

Capitalism is a useful system, but I had not considered that it had morals, in fact morals are not part of the rules. Maybe it satisfies that basic sense of fair play that nobody gets a free lunch, either work or die. Its a basic premise to start from; then how does the game progress? Do you help an individual who breaks his leg at work, or do you let him and his family fend for themselves? Is it OK for mine waste to poison the water of a community if the mine owner gets rich by doing so?

Who owns the world and its resources? Do you have a right to breathe air, or is that something you have to earn? If I find a way to take all of the oxygen out of the atmosphere and sell it back to whom I choose at the price I demand, is that not capitalism in its ultimate progression? And do not the rules of capitalism say I can choose my customers? What if I decide Merc14 gets no air at any price and I freely give it to Hispanic and Hungarian artists and engineers? What if I decide that males pay 5x the base price for females, still within my rights as a capitalist?

Capitalism as it is applied is not all about merit and the free market. And it is not pure. Large technological projects have always been publicly funded. Branson could not launch a private spacecraft now if it had not been for fifty years of publicly funded research and development. The Ayn Rand view is too simplistic. There are no checks and balances internal to the system to keep James Taggart from eliminating Dagny Taggart and Hank Rearden. There is no John Galt.

My point is that society has a rule base that is larger than an economic system. Capitalism is not in the mathematical sense sufficient and complete. Operating a country is about more than a business strategy. The decision is not reduced to bugaboo words like capitalism and socialism, it is about the very nature of how humans form groups of 7+ billion individuals or even if they can. How does a society blend self reliance and charity into a system that is beneficial for individuals and the entire group?

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Jarocal

How does a society blend self reliance and charity into a system that is beneficial for individuals and the entire group?

Privately, not through governmental regulation/resources.

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Farmer77

Privately, not through governmental regulation/resources.

It needs to be a conglomeration. Clearly private business in this nation is designed to work for its own best self interest. There needs to be some adult supervision. The government doesn't have money, it has the people's money and the people are not at this time receiving a return on their investment. I think as a nation we have matured to the point that we are beginning to realize that a rising tide should raise all boats, not just the luxury yachts.

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Yamato

I clicked on this link thinking "wow, finally!" and my brief hope was dashed in one second with another partisan hit piece.

Merc, maybe some people value different things in the world than you do, things other than money. If personal wealth is now the new yard stick on who's more qualified to be President, Michael Bloomberg is your man.

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Yamato

Maybe $300,000 would be a lot more money too, if it wasn't for the decades-long multi-trillion dollar adventures in the Middle East from Libya to Afghanistan. Trump is right about one thing, we don't even know what Trillion means.

When someone's got skyscrapers and billions of dollars, there's someone who can be your President. Nice.

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.ZZ.

Little wonder the students of today like him with grammar like this:

bernie-sanders-speaking-december-mount-vernon-iowa-speaks-rally-cornell-college-63768074.jpg

*cringe*

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Jarocal

It needs to be a conglomeration. Clearly private business in this nation is designed to work for its own best self interest. There needs to be some adult supervision. The government doesn't have money, it has the people's money and the people are not at this time receiving a return on their investment. I think as a nation we have matured to the point that we are beginning to realize that a rising tide should raise all boats, not just the luxury yachts.

I said nothing about "by private business" though I have no issue with charitable efforts by private enterprises. I don't consider my tax dollars a return on investment paying for indefinite term welfare, subsidizing healthcare, or unrestricted higher education.

-Personally I feel deregulation of licensing, zoning, and inspection for home based or small business ventures grossing less than $600k/yr, having ten or fewer employees, with no subcontracting of labor or distribution would be more beneficial. This would include food products also, I really dont need the FDA or USDA protecting me from small scale locally sourced producers.

Take a serious look at overzealous (though often godd intentioned) child labor laws. Why is it legal that a 16 year old person drive a pickup truck pulling a trailer with a few atvs on a busy highway for personal recreation while it is unlawful for the same person to replace those atvs with mowing equipment and use the mowing equipment for gainful employment?

Why can I legally employ a minor to use nails and a hammer in construction but not allow them use of an air powered nailer?

Why should my tax dollars pay for higher education in a field that there is little chance of the person getting a job in that field or is in a field that the pay is a "living wage" but will saddle the person with enough debt that they will not see a quality of life improvement? I am not saying "exclude liberal arts" or accredited certificate programs, just that perhaps independent counseling on education choices may be warrented. Other than a few professional certifications(paid for out of pocket or by my employer), none of my higher education is remotely related to my career choice and has been done completely out of pocket. It is in areas that interest me but frankly don't pay what I prefer to earn.

Edited by Jarocal
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Yamato

"It's disheartening that an avowed socialist is a viable candidate for president of the United States..."

It's also embarrassing. Neoconservatives are socialist brothers from another mother. Who do you people think owns the military? Why can't you understand this? There are few examples of pot calling the kettle greater than neocons ranting about socialism. But it's their socialism, so it's okay! We can't take care of our own people, we have to screw around thousands of miles away with someone else's and when we're doing that, the socialism knows no limits. A hundred years? Ten trillion dollars? The nutters don't know when to quit.

Didn't like Rand Paul? Then if you're a conservative, you're stupid. So now the only D left in the race who might know when to quit is Bernie Sanders. Talk about a slippery slope to Socialism and Karl Marx? How come neocons don't yet see how their lust for all things military is destroying our freedom? I could see it plain as day 10 years ago. It's so obvious now, it's painful. How many more controllers do you people need? Can we set some limits for a change?

It's painful to watch the cherry socialists slobber and rage about the grape socialists for being socialists.

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Yamato

Looks like these guys answered this with more resources and more eoloquently than I could. Thanks to everyone, I'm with you.

I believe you will find that this election is building primarily about being a non-conformist, no matter which side you're on. So to bash Sanders for not being a typical same-burger-same-friend robot all his life, not being rich, not inventing something are like saying "I can't stand that guy, see how he's never even performed brain surgery while balancing on a unicycle!" or "This guy has NEVER been arrested for assault or fraud, what kind of politicans IS he?"

As far as bills not passing, ONE person is not the sum of a bill, and how do you think this total compares against ALL the other senate and house members - you think all of them have passed one bill? Bernie is a civil rights advocate. If you had tried to "pass a bill" relating to that in the 60s, for significant racial equality, it would never have been supported by enough regular citizens at first, or even the rest of congress - change HAD to come from unilaterial laws, just like gay rights nowdays. The country is behind and always has been a bit behind the times for rights, and we might STILL be waiting for women and blacks to be able to vote, if it was down to bills being passed by rich old white men.

Great social change didn't come about because of "unilateral laws". I don't even know what that means. But it wasn't a politician or bureaucrat who got up on stage behind a podium and took all the credit for it. It eventually reached critical mass culturally and it would have been too politically abhorrent to vote against whatever civil rights bill it was. But to get to that point we needed the actions of a movement, people willing to go to jail or die for what they believe in. That takes faith, friend. No elected official did all that. It was accomplished by years of more and more people (women, blacks, gays) coming together and getting arrested and suffering physically for their beliefs. It doesn't even matter who the groups are or what the characteristics of each group are.

The ridiculousness of a black woman having to give her seat to a white man on a bus was finally exposed by one such woman's rebellious behavior. She had to suffer physically to stand up for her rights. Think of the women who went to prison so women could have the right to vote. Every jailer in America was probably disgusted by the sight of who he was jailing. So it's not like there's this cultural vacuum of nobody/nothing happening, and suddenly there's this champion in govt who fixes it unilaterally. MLK wasn't the President.

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spartan max2

I do always prefer they have business expierence. I think it adds perspective.

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Sir Wearer of Hats

I do always prefer they have business expierence. I think it adds perspective.

I think I prefer them to be parents, they might have learnt how to make selfless choices.

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Yamato

Why can I legally employ a minor to use nails and a hammer in construction but not allow them use of an air powered nailer?

The same reason a 15 year old busboy can't drive himself to work in the boss's car? He might be able to ride the boss's bike though. It's an inconvenience for both the minor and his employer. Regulations are the problem there too. Deregulation would solve it.

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spartan max2

I think I prefer them to be parents, they might have learnt how to make selfle

ss choices.

Meh philioshpically all choices are selfish in some way.

Like I know the point you're trying to make but on a diffrent subject.

Choosing to bring a life into the world is defintly selfish. The baby didn't choose it. The parent did because of how it made them feel

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Tatetopa

I said nothing about "by private business" though I have no issue with charitable efforts by private enterprises. I don't consider my tax dollars a return on investment paying for indefinite term welfare, subsidizing healthcare, or unrestricted higher education.

-Personally I feel deregulation of licensing, zoning, and inspection for home based or small business ventures grossing less than $600k/yr, having ten or fewer employees, with no subcontracting of labor or distribution would be more beneficial. This would include food products also, I really dont need the FDA or USDA protecting me from small scale locally sourced producers.

I believe it was Al Capone, the epitomy of a laissez faire capitalist who first pushed for date labeling of milk after he lost a family member. I don't know how you could be so trusting of your fellow humans, the same ones you don't want to feed or educate to allow them the power to make you ill or kill you for their own personal gain. Maybe you employ a food and drug tester. I find it more economical to empower an agency of a government to do so. I do not consider business regulations, the highway system, police, fire protection etc. to be a waste of my taxpayer dollars.

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Yamato

I don't believe Al Capone is the epitome of laissez faire capitalism. A gangster wants regulations so that he's got a strategic advantage on the competition, so that he's the only one not obeying them. He needs regulations otherwise his trade wouldn't be so profitable.

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Jarocal

I believe it was Al Capone, the epitomy of a laissez faire capitalist who first pushed for date labeling of milk after he lost a family member. I don't know how you could be so trusting of your fellow humans, the same ones you don't want to feed or educate to allow them the power to make you ill or kill you for their own personal gain. Maybe you employ a food and drug tester. I find it more economical to empower an agency of a government to do so. I do not consider business regulations, the highway system, police, fire protection etc. to be a waste of my taxpayer dollars.

I believe it was Al Capone, the epitomy of a laissez faire capitalist who first pushed for date labeling of milk after he lost a family member. I don't know how you could be so trusting of your fellow humans, the same ones you don't want to feed or educate to allow them the power to make you ill or kill you for their own personal gain. Maybe you employ a food and drug tester. I find it more economical to empower an agency of a government to do so. I do not consider business regulations, the highway system, police, fire protection etc. to be a waste of my taxpayer dollars.

I "can trust my fellow humans" because for the most part what I purchase foodwise is done locally and by ones transparent enough to see their business operations. I much rather pay a higher but fair price for beef to a local producer who I know is respectful to the animals rather than the cheaper meat processed at an agribusiness plant where not only minimal concern for the animals but also the workers they employ is shown. What I do purchase out of season or requiring importation is generally a treat not the norm in my diet. And you seem to be glossing over the size of the business I feel need deregulated to allow market access. A guy running a farm market stand or food truck is not going to cause salmonella outbreak on the scale that has occurred with the ones caused by agribusiness. I am not sure why your throwing infrastructure such as highway, police, fire, and EMS into the equation as I never mentioned them and do consider them part of governments responsibility not a waste of tax dollars. I never implied there is no role at all for the USA or FDA, just that there should be a more viable means for small scale entrepreneurs to access markets. I also never said to eliminate welfare or federally backed student loans. Perhaps you are willfully misconstrued my statement in your mind to fit a preconceived notion of someone who does oppose indefinite term welfare or giving loans for an education to someone knowing that the end result for that individual case will most likely lead to default on the loan. Perhaps you do prefer the government to play nanny for you in food choice or which contractors to use but I prefer the liberty to make those decisions on my own and accept the personal responsibility for the ones I make.

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Mark56

Lets ask the Europeans/Brits/Canadians/Aussies/Kiwis/Japanese who are members on this site what they think of their Socialized Medicine. Lets get an honest answer from " The man on the street."

Is it good? Are you happy with it?

I'm an American and I have company Health insurance, but we still have these exorbitant deductibles to pay on services rendered, and high premiums we have to pay every month. I pay over $200.00 a month for my Company insurance.

I've always said we have the best Medical services/facilities in the world, but, ironically, nobody can really afford it.

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