Let's talk about Bernie

[Merc14]

I'd love to know how you Bernie supporters, who were well and truly screwed by the MSM declaring Hillary the winner last night, before one vote was cast, feel about that propaganda tool now?  Did you know it existed?  Did you cheer it on when it was against republicans but now see the danger? 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Merc14

[Yamato]

2 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Can you explain why when i was for Bernie before I learned about him that you were for the capitalist back then and now you've changed. Is it because of the border issue that  you changed?

Apparently I'm not stuck on any one "ist".  

[GlitterRose]

1 hour ago, Merc14 said:

I'd love to know how you Bernie supporters, who were well and truly screwed by the MSM declaring Hillary the winner last night, before one vote was cast, feel about that propaganda tool now?  Did you know it existed?  Did you cheer it on when it was against republicans but now see the danger? 

I doubt most people took the "news" too seriously. I do think a lot of people think the whole process has been rigged from the start, though. 

[Tatetopa]

Not totally a Bernie supporter, but to answer your question, I know that there are competing propaganda tools.  I would rather have some facts and truth, but they are hard to come by from either camp.  Either way it turns out, it is a longer game than one election.

Merc I suspect you are fairly content.  In the last 4000 years of human history, conservatives have been in charge about 90% of the time.  Those brief interregnums of liberalism only last a generation or two; and they are necessary to shake things up and change status quo.  Progress happens during those periods, but they can be unstable and impractical.  The peak flowering of Athens, Florence, Edinburgh (Adam Smith among others) , and Vienna  lasted less than 100 years each. Those times created the basis for Western thought, art, double entry bookkeeping, the Renaissance, economics, capitalism, the Industrial Revolution, and modern science.  Conservatives brought us the Power Roman Catholic Church, the Feudal System, the Inquisition, and the Irish Potato Famine in addition to 3600 years of stability and repression of the common populace punctuated by war.

That is unfair I know, but the point is that creativity and liberalism, as much as you might hate it, are necessary for human progress.  Things go in cycles, Bernie will disappear and be forgotten.  If Hillary becomes president, she may screw us big time, but she won't destroy us.  Same with Uncle Donald, he is a total fool, but his power will be limited.  Its up to us to deal with each other somehow and make society work.

[Yamato]

4 hours ago, Merc14 said:

I'd love to know how you Bernie supporters, who were well and truly screwed by the MSM declaring Hillary the winner last night, before one vote was cast, feel about that propaganda tool now?  Did you know it existed?  Did you cheer it on when it was against republicans but now see the danger? 

I called CNN out a long time ago for putting the crown on Queen Hillary's head, and that was no particular reason not to support Bernie Sanders either.

 

[Yamato]

14 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Not totally a Bernie supporter, but to answer your question, I know that there are competing propaganda tools.  I would rather have some facts and truth, but they are hard to come by from either camp.  Either way it turns out, it is a longer game than one election.

Merc I suspect you are fairly content.  In the last 4000 years of human history, conservatives have been in charge about 90% of the time.  Those brief interregnums of liberalism only last a generation or two; and they are necessary to shake things up and change status quo.  Progress happens during those periods, but they can be unstable and impractical.  The peak flowering of Athens, Florence, Edinburgh (Adam Smith among others) , and Vienna  lasted less than 100 years each. Those times created the basis for Western thought, art, double entry bookkeeping, the Renaissance, economics, capitalism, the Industrial Revolution, and modern science.  Conservatives brought us the Power Roman Catholic Church, the Feudal System, the Inquisition, and the Irish Potato Famine in addition to 3600 years of stability and repression of the common populace punctuated by war.

That is unfair I know, but the point is that creativity and liberalism, as much as you might hate it, are necessary for human progress.  Things go in cycles, Bernie will disappear and be forgotten.  If Hillary becomes president, she may screw us big time, but she won't destroy us.  Same with Uncle Donald, he is a total fool, but his power will be limited.  Its up to us to deal with each other somehow and make society work.

Good points Tate but conservatives can be creative too.  On balance they hinder progress I suppose?   But they also promote stability by conserving good things from the past.  Values, morals, ethics, legalities and habits.  A greater reliance on freer markets and smaller government than liberals these days seem to like.   That's kinda important now more than ever when we're doubling the debt in eight years.   If we're going to have "Government is the solution" liberals we're going to need true conservatives.   But if liberals were what they used to be, we wouldn't need conservatives for anything.

 

[questionmark]

15 hours ago, Purifier said:

I think you underestimate Trump, Q. I know he's getting a lot of negativity publicity right now from those who are against him, especially from the Latinos over his latest comments about the judge, and yeah, he shot himself in the foot so bad on that one, you'd think it would do him in, but that son-of-a-gun has the uncanny ability to pull in more popularity from any kind of negative publicity. Because what he's doing is taking a page from the WWE circus playbook right now and applying it to politics, where even the bad guys gain a lot of popularity in the WWE, because the fans think their guy is always a winner; good or bad, it doesn't matter. Because any kind of publicity is better then no publicity, but then one has to play it just right of course and not push things too far and I don't think Trump has pushed things far enough yet. All the crap he's done so far, is just the beginning.

 

And also, that's the thing about running for the Presidency these days, it's a BS political popularity contest and everybody knows it. It's just like high school teenagers when they run for class president in their high schools. It's a popularity contest. So same crap, but different color.

 

So I'm pretty sure the anti-Trump conservatives (The Bush family, Rubio, Romney and others) realize all this too and just might - just might surprise us with Independent run for the helluva it, just to make sure it keeps Trump out of office. Because he's not a elite republican or democratic establishment type and they don't want to have to deal with Trump, because they believe he's someone they can't work with or get the things they want done for their agendas.
 

I don't think I underestimate him. I know that elections are decided by about 6-8% of the electorate. All of them moderates. If Trump wants to get them back he better do some things that will not bode well with his clientele. Attacking Clinton and ranting about judges will not get him very far there.

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by questionmark

[Merc14]

6 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Not totally a Bernie supporter, but to answer your question, I know that there are competing propaganda tools.  I would rather have some facts and truth, but they are hard to come by from either camp.  Either way it turns out, it is a longer game than one election.

Merc I suspect you are fairly content.  In the last 4000 years of human history, conservatives have been in charge about 90% of the time.  Those brief interregnums of liberalism only last a generation or two; and they are necessary to shake things up and change status quo.  Progress happens during those periods, but they can be unstable and impractical.  The peak flowering of Athens, Florence, Edinburgh (Adam Smith among others) , and Vienna  lasted less than 100 years each. Those times created the basis for Western thought, art, double entry bookkeeping, the Renaissance, economics, capitalism, the Industrial Revolution, and modern science.  Conservatives brought us the Power Roman Catholic Church, the Feudal System, the Inquisition, and the Irish Potato Famine in addition to 3600 years of stability and repression of the common populace punctuated by war.

That is unfair I know, but the point is that creativity and liberalism, as much as you might hate it, are necessary for human progress.  Things go in cycles, Bernie will disappear and be forgotten.  If Hillary becomes president, she may screw us big time, but she won't destroy us.  Same with Uncle Donald, he is a total fool, but his power will be limited.  Its up to us to deal with each other somehow and make society work.

I think your definition of liberalism and conservatism, and mine, are completely different and the fact that you don't know that is amusing to say the least.  A Jeffersonian liberal has absolutely NOTHING to do with  modern, Pelosi like liberalism and a William F. Buckley type conservativsm has absolutely NOTHING to do with the tyrannies you allude to.  Truly one of the most idiotic posts I have read here since Yamato's last diatribe.

Learn some history, learn what the labels you are using mean in historical and modern context and think a little before posting such idiocy because you'll get it back with both barrels .  Thanks in advance if you never address me again, that would be appreciated.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Merc14

[White Unicorn]

15 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

I doubt most people took the "news" too seriously. I do think a lot of people think the whole process has been rigged from the start, though. 

You are right. I'm not new to being politically active.

DNC,  RNC and PAC manipulate media and the voting in primaries is considered but it's the conventions that really decide the nominees, it's always been that way. Independents have all sides against them unless they choose one of the two major parties. Bernie has educated new progressives about how DNC and delegates work differently in each state. Bernie has even mentioned how he had to have the endorsement of RNC to have enough support to get elected in one of his campaigns to further his political future. He is honest and that is one thing that encouraged him to fight the huge dollars in campaigns where money has too much influence on who gets elected and who people can vote for on the ballots.

I feel for the new Bernie Sanders activists because their candidate did not become presumptive nominee. 

I'm an independent who was a registered Democrat in county of mostly straight line voters, my father was a union man who truly said, if you want a choice on a ballot  of local primaries you must be registered Democrat. I changed to be Republican when I got to meet Ronald Reagan in my town. He inspired me and  I joined RNC, was a calling volunteer and worked with the local RNC. I learned a lot from that just as Bernie's young supporters are now. On the National level of the RNC a lot of the most power RNC were against his nomination but he still won. I was encouraged by the thought I actually made a difference to help him become president.

Later I met Ross Perot a business man that I met through a friend who worked at EDS. I liked the honesty and integrity of the man who like Sanders was called crazy. I was very against Bill Clinton's NAFTA and ultimately joined his campaign as actively as I did the Reagan campaign. I learned more about dirty politics of RNC because I was still registered on RNC mailing and calling lists. Perot was not lying about the dirty tricks as he called them that the RNC planned. I see alot of Perot's grassroots movement and enthusiasm to stand up for America as I see in Bernie's new movement now. Perot kept losing but he was still driven to keep the movement alive. I was honored and impressed by Perot after his last unsuccessful campaign. He sent me a book he wrote with a letter about a year later inviting some of his campaign supporters to his Texas ranch for a free barbeque to discuss how to stay active in grass root politics. I feel Bernie as a  politician  will continue to help his movement in a different way but will be like Perot and encourage his  supporters to continue their fight for the cause not just him.

I changed to Democrat again to support and vote for my neighbor running against a currupt judge locally. Bernie's young supporters can make changes for the movement as they learn the local and national political systems in each state. 

I learned that even though you are an independent at heart, you have to play the political power game by registering with one of the two parties to be of more influence. As Perot said Bernie says it's a bottom up fight for votes. I like Bernie because he is true to his supporters and reminds me of my campaigning for Perot. I have hope in Bernie's supporters to stay active and help change the current systems and fight for a better future.  Don't get discouraged because it's normal in politics but not the end of the power of the movement if you still stick together after the defeats. 

 

 

[White Unicorn]

19 hours ago, Merc14 said:

I'd love to know how you Bernie supporters, who were well and truly screwed by the MSM declaring Hillary the winner last night, before one vote was cast, feel about that propaganda tool now?  Did you know it existed?  Did you cheer it on when it was against republicans but now see the danger? 

I'm old to political systems and media manipulation funded by PAC, RNC and DNC leaders showing bias to their preferred party nominees. No surprise to me. I'm not an active supporter or volunteer  as in other campaigns but I voted for him in primary. He is the least scandalous of others on ballot and true to his causes and sends some very important messages to everyone. I haven't been at a rally or personally met him, but I talked with him on phone when the too big to fail  happened and took the US into the great recession. When he called me, he impressed me as an honest crusader to fight the  injustices in the financial and political systems. His slate is clean compared to the other front runners on my ballot and I respect his determination to buck the evils of our political systems so the 90% have more hope in their future.

Bernie is called defiant  and Trump is being called Dr Jeckle and Mr Hyde today. Media always exagerates and covers the outlandish in campaigns rather then the real issues involved on any side now. It was an unethical release of polling information of NBC MSM and even AP. As far as I know this is a new  first time for media to make announcement of wins prior to primaries of big delegate States. Even other networks and reporters were condemning it. California attorney general mentioned in interview not letting Bernie stay in race until the end would send a message to remaining voters that their vote is not important and discourage voters to stay home. She said it would send a message to all people democracy is dead is their votes doesn't count in reality.

Bernie has brought newly registered progressives  to the Democratic Party, he has raised money to fund Democratic candidates who are more  open to progressive platforms by send half to my campaign and half to the candidate. Some media says he's defiant because he's not dropping out of race before the end and hurting Hillary. President Obama called him to drop out and talk to him about supporting Hillary. Truth as Bernie said he will meet with Obama how to best go forward in the movements platforms in the Democratic Party. Bernie called Hillary and congratulated her on win as is the norm in elections within a party. Obama has not officially supported yet, that tells me he is waiting until DNC has an official nominee not just a presumed nominee. Obama's win opposing Hillary was unexpected with the DNC and he had supporters of a younger generation that made the difference just as Bernie has the millenials now. 

I think it's media play before convention against Sanders but in reality the Democrats are planning on how to win and work together. VP Biden even made the statement, be graceful and let Bernie decide. 

Bernie's official message to supporters is:

All of you know that when we began this campaign a little over a year ago we were considered to be a fringe campaign. But over the last year, I think that has changed just a little bit.

As of today, we have won 22 state primaries and caucuses with over 11 million votes. What is most extraordinary to me is that in virtually every single state, we have won in big numbers the votes of young people.

Young people understand that they are the future of America, and they intend to help shape that future. I am enormously optimistic about the future of our country when so many young people have come on board and understand that our vision, a vision of social justice, economic justice, racial justice, and environmental justice, must be the future of America.

Our campaign from day one has understood some very basic points, and that is first, we will not allow right-wing Republicans to control our government. That is especially true with Donald Trump as the Republican candidate. The American people in my view will never support a candidate whose major theme is bigotry, who insults Mexicans, who insults Muslims and women and African-Americans. We will not allow Donald Trump to become president of the United States.

But we understand that our mission is more than just defeating Trump. It is transforming our country. The vast majority of the American people know that it is not acceptable that the top tenth of 1 percent owns as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent; we’re going to change that. When millions of Americans are working longer hours for lower wages, we will not allow 57 percent of all new income to go to the top 1 percent. We will end a corrupt campaign finance system.

Democracy is not about billionaires buying elections. We will end a broken criminal justice system. We will break up the major banks on Wall Street. We will join the rest of the industrialized world and guarantee health care to all people as a right. We will bring about real immigration reform and a path toward citizenship. We will tell the billionaire class and corporate America that they will start paying their fair share of taxes.

What we understand, and what every one of us has always understood, is that real change never occurs from the top on down, always from the bottom on up.

That is the history of America, whether it is the creation of the trade union movement, the civil rights movement, the women’s movement, the gay movement. And that is what OUR movement is about.

But you all know it is more than Bernie Sanders. It is all of us together. That is what this movement is about: millions of people from coast to coast standing up and looking around them and knowing that we can do much, much better as a nation.

Whether Wall Street likes it, whether corporate America likes it, whether wealthy campaign contributors like it, whether the corporate media likes it, together we know what our job is. It is to bring the American people together to create a government that works for us, not the 1 percent.

Next Tuesday, we continue the fight. We are going to fight hard to win the primary in Washington, D.C. And then we take our fight for social, economic, racial, and environmental justice to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

I am pretty good at arithmetic, and I know that the fight in front of us is a very, very steep fight, but we will continue to fight for every vote and every delegate we can get. Last night I had a very kind call from President Obama and I look forward to working with him to ensure that we move this country forward. And last night, I also had a very gracious call from Secretary Clinton and congratulated her on her victories.

Our fight is to transform our country and to understand that we are in this together. It is to understand that all of what we believe is what the majority of the American people believe. And it is to understand that the struggle continues.

If this campaign has proven anything, it has proven that millions of Americans who love this country are prepared to stand up and fight to make this country a much better place.

Thank you all. The struggle continues.

In solidarity,

Bernie Sanders

Bernie has been honest to his young supporters and doesn't flip flop on his views or messages. He's committed to his cause and has the determination to keep his promise to his supporters to take the campaign  to the end when the last vote is cast and the DNC decides who is their nominee at their convention. I think this shows integrity and courage to try to make DNC more receptive to the progressive movement not defiance as the mainstream media would like us to believe.

He reviewed  in  California last night to his supporters the mission of the  campaign to better the future of the US. We will never support any right wing Republicans or let a bigot like Donald Trump be elected President. Lastly, he mentioned that the Sanders campaign has shown everyone that millions of Americans are prepared to fight the system to make our county better,- justice in  equality, economy, and environment. Supporters chanted we will fight.

I don't see how the Donald thinks he will recruit Sanders supporters when first statement was we will never support right wing Republicans or Donald Trump.  I think Bernie supporters may be disappointed in the results of election but they will be loyal to their progressive movement and more likely to be welcomed by DNC that will offer them more hope in the changes they want and believe in. 

As Sanders said yesterday, it's not Bernie, it's all of us together standing up to do much better as a nation. 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by White Unicorn

[White Unicorn]

17 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

I doubt most people took the "news" too seriously. I do think a lot of people think the whole process has been rigged from the start, though. 

Dang iPhone! I wanted to say Bernie was once endorsed by NRA not RNC! For some reason I can't edit my post. 

 

[Merc14]

Thanks WU for your input.  The fix was in a year and a half ago but I was impressed by Bernie's ability to energize a fairly burned out democrat electorate.  Democrats are down millions of votes from the last few primaries so most people, I guess, understand intrinsically, what a horrible human being Hillary is.  Trump is an unknown and not mty pick but Hillary is a devil I know and she terrifies me.  Sociopath is an apt label

[Tatetopa]

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."  Thomas Jefferson My definition of a liberal.   Conservatism aims to maintain in working order the loyalties of the community to perceived truths and also to those truths which in their judgment have earned universal recognition.   William Buckley an enlightened and scholarly conservative.   Thanks Yamato, you are right, stability and consolidation are important.  I got over the top on that one, its the season of hyperbole.  Conservatives can also be creative, no doubt.   There are some with principles and integrity, they just don't have a voice right now.   Bernie might have changed the course of the discussion, I don't think Hillary will. I used to watch Buckley on TV.  He was brilliant and erudite.  Maybe it was just his tv personality but I never saw him froth at the mouth or resort to calling his partners in debate stupid.  I'm pretty happy with change and progress in limited doses, but I don't want it to stop entirely.   However, I was right about the potato famine.  It wasn't caused by tyrants as he who must not be named infers but well meaning mostly agreeable conservative gents in Parliament without a good grasp of economics or cause and effect.

[White Unicorn]

9 hours ago, Merc14 said:

Thanks WU for your input.  The fix was in a year and a half ago but I was impressed by Bernie's ability to energize a fairly burned out democrat electorate.  Democrats are down millions of votes from the last few primaries so most people, I guess, understand intrinsically, what a horrible human being Hillary is.  Trump is an unknown and not mty pick but Hillary is a devil I know and she terrifies me.  Sociopath is an apt label

I may be personally biased against Clinton. My father died and my mother became bedfast in hospital and on a machine for a year and then went into rest home and spend down for Medicaid. My father handled taxes etc and she liked spending. Well when I found the checkbook and statements she written two checks for $100,000 each to Clinton Library and Foundation among a few to  other charities. I was shocked to learn you can transfer assets to strangers or charities but not relatives.  My dad didn't do a trust in time. I was upset with her thinking when you have lots of money you can just keep spending and never run out especially when huge unpaid medical bills came in because the both maxed their health insurance.

I'm biased towards healthcare for all since I saw how my father had no coverage after he used it. 

I don't know who scares me the most, the known or the more unknown candidate. When you know them you at least can expect how they do things and raround.With the unknown,we could be destroyed by something stupid before we knew what happened.

Libertarian might be least harmful in office. Johnson wouldn't push that much for fast changes except to balance budget. 

We sure don't have any really good choices this time around

 

[ninjadude]

Quote

On Thursday, California Secretary of State Alex Padilla said at least 2 million votes cast in California’s presidential primary election have yet to be counted. So far Hillary Clinton is leading Bernie Sanders by 440,000 votes. We speak to Bernie Sanders superdelegate Larry Cohen on why the Sanders campaign is calling for major changes to how the Democratic Party holds its primaries.

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/10/as_california_admits_2_million_ballots

[Merc14]

I don't know how you call an election, separated by only half a million votes, when 2.6 million of a forecast 8 million have yet to be counted?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/9/2-million-votes-yet-to-be-counted-in-california-pr/

[F3SS]

So even if Bernie were to actually win California what difference at this point would it make?

[Merc14]

1 hour ago, F3SS said:

So even if Bernie were to actually win California what difference at this point would it make?

My only desire is he stays in and causes as much trouble for the harpie as possible to keep people like ninja ramped up and angry.

[White Unicorn]

On 6/10/2016 at 8:03 PM, Merc14 said:

My only desire is he stays in and causes as much trouble for the harpie as possible to keep people like ninja ramped up and angry.

I hope he succeeds in changing DNC super delegate processes to be more transparent and fair. Media says Hillary won California and all the votes aren't in. Projected winner translates to victory before other states even vote. Bernie has shown us to that a candidate who has his heart in the messages he sends can actually be a contender with lots of supporters and small contributions so you don't need the big expenses in campaigns.

The thing he hasn't overcome but has made transparent is the power of the DNC super delegates. He wins 72% of all votes in Washington state but he didn't get any delegates.  

That's the political system the biase that exists in US political systems. Democracy is when all registered voters can vote and it counts. I hope he can does get enough clout with DNC to  change some of the things that needs to be addressed.

[Merc14]

Wow!  Looks like Bernie was right after all, the DNC was actively working the derail his campaign  https://theintercept.com/2016/07/22/new-leak-top-dnc-official-wanted-to-use-bernie-sanderss-religious-beliefs-against-him/

[Merc14]

More on this.  http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DEM_2016_DNC_EMAILS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-07-23-12-30-35

[preacherman76]

Obviously im not a Sanders fan at all, but what happened in this election is out right criminal. They removed the will of the people completely. He should have fought it. They tried the same thing with Trump, but he wouldn't have it.

[Merc14]

Apparently the Sander's campaign is insisting someone be held accountable for this but the DNC has been silent so far.  Interesting that they were going to attack Bernie's alleged atheism, you wouldn't think that would be a big deal for the democrats but apparently it is.  http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/bernie-sanders-campaign-chief-accountable-dnc-emails-show/story?id=40825318

To make matters worse, Wikileaks has shown that Politico passed a story about Hillary through the DNC for their thoughts/approval before publishing.  This is a big no-no in journalism as it is considered "prior-restraint".  Of course we all knew this was going on  but now we have proof. http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/us/disgusting-leaked-dnc-emails-shows-incestuous-relationship-with-pandering-media

Wikileaks says this is just the start but as was said early n this thread, Bernie never had a chance.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Merc14

[preacherman76]

He needs to call them out publically an let the court of public opinion decide.

[Michelle]

Oy...I've been alive a lot of years and I have never seen things so contentious. Thankfully, people in my neck of the woods seem to have a level head.