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Merc14

Let's talk about Bernie

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Peter B

I think I prefer them to be parents, they might have learnt how to make selfless choices.

Do you think it's limited the effectiveness of, say, Julie Bishop? (Australia's current Foreign Minister)

Having said that, I think the advantage of having parents as Presidents (or PMs or whatever) is that they're used to corralling the activities of the excitable bunch of people around them and generally succeeding at getting them to do what you want, even if it takes longer and involves a lot more shouting than you'd wish.

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Peter B

Hi Mark - in answer to your question - we have a very good health system here in Australia - and yes I'm generally happy with it.

We are covered by Private Health insurance and we pay 'top cover' (personal choice) at $300 a month.

Anyway - rather than go through all the details Iv'e popped in a link to give you a basic idea.

http://www.doctorcon...iashealthsystem

Just to second Astra, I'm pretty happy with our health system too.

Our oldest son is profoundly deaf, and has been fitted with cochlear implants. These devices cost something like $20,000 each and a lot of follow up therapy to teach the wearer how to use them.

Medicare will pay for one cochlear implant to be installed (it requires surgery). We had the second one covered by our private health insurance.

So our son has bilateral hearing like normally hearing people. He's able to go to the local primary school with kids his own age, and should be able to follow just about any career he wants (except footballer or anything involving magnets).

The way I see it, the government's investment in his cochlear implant will repay itself many times over, both in a pension it won't have to pay and in taxes it'll collect over his working life.

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Peter B

"The Australian health system is world-class in both its effectiveness and efficiency: Australia consistently ranks in the best performing group of countries for healthy life expectancy and health expenditure per person.’ (World Health Organization 2003)."

- Australian Government, Dept of Health

Wow,not only can the Aussies out-drink Americans, they're healthier!......Go figure

Sadly, I think we also out-obese Americans too.

Conservative politicians here occasionally complain about the expense of Medicare. No doubt it could be more efficient, and there are almost certainly people who exploit the system. But the fact remains that government health expenditure in Australia is less per person than it is in the USA.

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Sir Wearer of Hats

Do you think it's limited the effectiveness of, say, Julie Bishop? (Australia's current Foreign Minister)

Having said that, I think the advantage of having parents as Presidents (or PMs or whatever) is that they're used to corralling the activities of the excitable bunch of people around them and generally succeeding at getting them to do what you want, even if it takes longer and involves a lot more shouting than you'd wish.

The thing that limited Julie Bishop is the lack of a conscience.

You also suggest an issue with them being parents, that being nepotism and thrm rigging the system in favour of their brood (c.f. Toned Abs and his daughter getting a prestigious and oddly one off scholarship).

Edited by Sir Wearer of Hats
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Astra.

Sadly, I think we also out-obese Americans too.

According to this 2015 article we rate 3rd after the USA and UK - but those stats come after the 10 'most obese nations'

http://food.ndtv.com...ountries-734909

Edit - anyway guys we seem to be going a little of topic - we don't want Merc getting cranky with us :no:

Edited by Astra.
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questionmark

Lets ask the Europeans/Brits/Canadians/Aussies/Kiwis/Japanese who are members on this site what they think of their Socialized Medicine. Lets get an honest answer from " The man on the street."

Is it good? Are you happy with it?

I'm an American and I have company Health insurance, but we still have these exorbitant deductibles to pay on services rendered, and high premiums we have to pay every month. I pay over $200.00 a month for my Company insurance.

I've always said we have the best Medical services/facilities in the world, but, ironically, nobody can really afford it.

I have lived long enough in Europe to have experienced both systems. The first thing you notice us that you have a worry less and that there is no guilt about being sick. The next thing you notice is that you don't have to worry about getting healthy as fast as possible because a large part of your basic net remains as income. No, you won't be able to go out on the town with it but you will still be able to pay your mortgage or rent, your electric and water and your food. If you break a leg.... which needs 6 weeks to heal, you're off 6 weeks. In the US you will be hobbling back to work a week later, which tends to extend and complicate the healing process.

As far as medical attention, that depends on the country. There where they have to import doctors for lack of them (i.e. millennial Great Britain) there tend to be large lines, in others where they have an abundance of doctors it is no problem to get an appointment. But that generally has nothing to do with how the doctors are paid (out of pocket or insurance).

Then comes cost, where the US is the country that outspends every other and has not really much to show for it. And the reason for that is found in the same article:

The Commonwealth Fund reports that the U.S. has fewer physicians per capita, fewer patient consultations, fewer hospital beds, shorter stays for acute conditions, and fewer patient discharges than the other countries in the study. The data indicate that U.S. hospital stays are more resource-intensive than in other countries and that prices for hospital services are higher.

Read more

And that we can attribute directly to the fact that everybody, as soon as they can walk again, hobbles back to work making the condition, in many cases, worse, acute and more difficult to cure.

So, which system is better? The one that heals you before letting you out again. And that is not the US healthcare system.

Edited by questionmark
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Farmer77

I have lived long enough in Europe to have experienced both systems. The first thing you notice us that you have a worry less and that there is no guilt about being sick. The next thing you notice is that you don't have to worry about getting healthy as fast as possible because a large part of your basic net remains as income. No, you won't be able to go out on the town with it but you will still be able to pay your mortgage or rent, your electric and water and your food. If you break a leg.... which needs 6 weeks to heal, you're off 6 weeks. In the US you will be hobbling back to work a week later, which tends to extend and complicate the healing process.

As far as medical attention, that depends on the country. There where they have to import doctors for lack of them (i.e. millennial Great Britain) there tend to be large lines, in others where they have an abundance of doctors it is no problem to get an appointment. But that generally has nothing to do with how the doctors are paid (out of pocket or insurance).

Then comes cost, where the US is the country that outspends every other and has not really much to show for it. And the reason for that is found in the same article:

And that we can attribute directly to the fact that everybody, as soon as they can walk again, hobbles back to work making the condition, in many cases, worse, acute and more difficult to cure.

So, which system is better? The one that heals you before letting you out again. And that is not the US healthcare system.

Having been struck with a host of neurological disorders while in my 30's I was treated to a front row seat to the horror which is the American health care system. I went from having a successful, respected career to being treated like a junkie/social parasite in a matter of about a year. The state was telling me to go on disability, they even lined me up with the paperwork and doctors to do it. (i chose a different path) The problem with that in america is the government doesnt care about you during the application process, they even say right on the disability website that they expect you to be able to take care of yourself for the 6 months to 3 years which the application process takes, BUT you cannot earn any income during that time or you will be disqualified and the process has to begin again. Huh?

As a father of two this was absolutely terrifying. At the time I became sick I had the best insurance available thank god because the litany of prescription drugs I had shoveled at me cost an absurd amount of money. One of which cost 1800 dollars a month. Thats not a typo 1800 dollars a month, that same medication in the UK cost 250 USD a month. Eventually the insurance ended and my family and I ended up on medicaid. While our healthcare needs were met,medications had to be altered to fit what medicaid would pay for and the stigma associated with medicaid is very real as is the drop off in quality care. Our system is built to favor the wealthy and medicaid patients often are pushed to the end of the line in favor of those big insurance dollars.

Our health care system is broken. It is a defacto socialist system in that those who pay their bills pay outlandishly inflated prices in order to offset the cost of those who dont. Socialism without any of the built in protections for cost and access. That's not even touching on the whole pharmaceutical industry running medical care issue. It got to the point where I could predict what each individual specialist was going to prescribe me based on the swag littering their office.

Hopping on my soapbox for a second , if anyone out there is suffering with neurological issues, pain, muscle spasms, weakness, nausea and vomiting, insomnia etc. flush the prescriptions and get to your local dispensary to buy some pot. Smoke it , eat it, use it topically you will find relief without the zombifying side effects.

Back to Bernie, I really appreciate having someone on the national level speaking about real change.

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spartan max2

Consider North Korea. It is the capitalist's dream. An entire country run by a CEO and a weak board of directors. The third generation is now directing the family business. No safety regulations, no retirement benefits, no HR Dept. If Kim wants to fire someone, he does it with a cannon. Absolute control with no stockholders to answer to at the end of the quarter. How is that working out? Well if you are KIm with unknown billions of dollars stashed, pretty dang good. If you were the average North Korean maybe not so well.

What are the mitigating circumstances that make our capitalist system any safer?

Lol are you joking?

I don't believe I ever have seen anyone try to say north korea is a capitalist dream. It's about the farthest thing from capitilaizsm as you can get.

Edited by spartan max2
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Merc14
bernie-taxes-750.jpg
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questionmark

bernie-taxes-750.jpg

well, given that the top 1% made around 40% of all income I don't think they are unfairly taxed. In fact, the lower 10% pay percentage wise more taxes than they do.

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Paranormalcy

Game set and match on that slam dunk by questionmark!

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Mark56

I wanted to throw in one last word.

Last night I threw out a question to all our non-American members here on site, who have Socialized Medicine in their countries and what they thought of it. Several Australians and several Canadians and one European all chimed in.

Oddly enough,they all of like their Socialized Medicine and all want to keep it.

I'm a truck driver and I've asked Canadian truck drivers who come into the States the same question. They all like their Socialized Medicine.

Fascinating.

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questionmark

I wanted to throw in one last word.

Last night I threw out a question to all our non-American members here on site, who have Socialized Medicine in their countries and what they thought of it. Several Australians and several Canadians and one European all chimed in.

Oddly enough,they all of like their Socialized Medicine and all want to keep it.

I'm a truck driver and I've asked Canadian truck drivers who come into the States the same question. They all like their Socialized Medicine.

Fascinating.

Ask Americans who finally got insurance through Obamacare if they want to give it up. It will only be those who are under 35 and have never been sick.

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Farmer77

well, given that the top 1% made around 40% of all income I don't think they are unfairly taxed. In fact, the lower 10% pay percentage wise more taxes than they do.

30916-lincoln-whos-awesome-meme-sgay.jpeg

Well said.

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Paranormal Panther

According to this 2015 article we rate 3rd after the USA and UK - but those stats come after the 10 'most obese nations'

http://food.ndtv.com...ountries-734909

Edit - anyway guys we seem to be going a little of topic - we don't want Merc getting cranky with us :no:

The Pacific Islanders are way up there. They're our fierce rivals for the obesity crown.

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Yamato

bernie-taxes-750.jpg

The govt will be stealing a lot more of our money in the future to pay for our adventures. So you can't approve of your deficit spending and have the tax argument too. Your politics about taxes are no more genuine than Sanders.

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F3SS

It's different from province to province. In some you pay no montly fee and in others like mine if you make under $20k a year as a single person you pay nothing. I pay about $45 a month.

Wait times for certain procedures like hip replacements can be a b****, but it's in order of those most in need. Rich people have to wait in line (or just book the procedure in the U.S. and pay for it).

I like our system and the only comment I can make about the U.S. system is that, to me, it seems too patchwork and no one should become bankrupt over a heart attack.

Alright so just two days ago my grandmother fell and broke her upper femur, possibly pelvis. Anyhow that was the evening and she was rushed to the hospital. By noon the next day, yesterday, she was in the operating room and 4 hours later she was in recovery for a partial hip replacement. Are you saying where you are from she would have had to wait an untold amount of time for that procedure? She's 83. How the heck could she wait?

Having been struck with a host of neurological disorders while in my 30's I was treated to a front row seat to the horror which is the American health care system. I went from having a successful, respected career to being treated like a junkie/social parasite in a matter of about a year. The state was telling me to go on disability, they even lined me up with the paperwork and doctors to do it. (i chose a different path) The problem with that in america is the government doesnt care about you during the application process, they even say right on the disability website that they expect you to be able to take care of yourself for the 6 months to 3 years which the application process takes, BUT you cannot earn any income during that time or you will be disqualified and the process has to begin again. Huh?

As a father of two this was absolutely terrifying. At the time I became sick I had the best insurance available thank god because the litany of prescription drugs I had shoveled at me cost an absurd amount of money. One of which cost 1800 dollars a month. Thats not a typo 1800 dollars a month, that same medication in the UK cost 250 USD a month. Eventually the insurance ended and my family and I ended up on medicaid. While our healthcare needs were met,medications had to be altered to fit what medicaid would pay for and the stigma associated with medicaid is very real as is the drop off in quality care. Our system is built to favor the wealthy and medicaid patients often are pushed to the end of the line in favor of those big insurance dollars.

Our health care system is broken. It is a defacto socialist system in that those who pay their bills pay outlandishly inflated prices in order to offset the cost of those who dont. Socialism without any of the built in protections for cost and access. That's not even touching on the whole pharmaceutical industry running medical care issue. It got to the point where I could predict what each individual specialist was going to prescribe me based on the swag littering their office.

Hopping on my soapbox for a second , if anyone out there is suffering with neurological issues, pain, muscle spasms, weakness, nausea and vomiting, insomnia etc. flush the prescriptions and get to your local dispensary to buy some pot. Smoke it , eat it, use it topically you will find relief without the zombifying side effects.

Back to Bernie, I really appreciate having someone on the national level speaking about real change.

My grandmother uses Medicade and gets taken care of just fine. Obviously she's not rich or priveldged so maybe it just varies and you got a raw deal.

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Likely Guy

Alright so just two days ago my grandmother fell and broke her upper femur, possibly pelvis. Anyhow that was the evening and she was rushed to the hospital. By noon the next day, yesterday, she was in the operating room and 4 hours later she was in recovery for a partial hip replacement. Are you saying where you are from she would have had to wait an untold amount of time for that procedure? She's 83. How the heck could she wait?

Like I said, "it's in order of those most in need". She would have bumped someone that is still ambulatory.

I hope she mends well.

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Farmer77

Alright so just two days ago my grandmother fell and broke her upper femur, possibly pelvis. Anyhow that was the evening and she was rushed to the hospital. By noon the next day, yesterday, she was in the operating room and 4 hours later she was in recovery for a partial hip replacement. Are you saying where you are from she would have had to wait an untold amount of time for that procedure? She's 83. How the heck could she wait?

My grandmother uses Medicade and gets taken care of just fine. Obviously she's not rich or priveldged so maybe it just varies and you got a raw deal.

Well people over 65 don't have a choice but to use Medicare, which is a different program than medicaid so the stigma of poverty is removed.

Wishing her the best.

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ellapenella

I wanted to throw in one last word.

Last night I threw out a question to all our non-American members here on site, who have Socialized Medicine in their countries and what they thought of it. Several Australians and several Canadians and one European all chimed in.

Oddly enough,they all of like their Socialized Medicine and all want to keep it.

I'm a truck driver and I've asked Canadian truck drivers who come into the States the same question. They all like their Socialized Medicine.

Fascinating.

I heard from a really really good source that Canadians travel to America for surgery often times because they have no time to wait on such long waiting lists.I don't know about socialized medicine but maybe that's the problem with how Americans vote these days, they're all possibly looking for who ever will give them their drugs for like free.

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questionmark

I heard from a really really good source that Canadians travel to America for surgery often times because they have no time to wait on such long waiting lists.I don't know about socialized medicine but maybe that's the problem with how Americans vote these days, they're all possibly looking for who ever will give them their drugs for like free.

And not 40 years ago, Americans who could afford it traveled to South Africa to get heart surgery (google Christian Barnard). That there are a few "capacities" in some fields in America does not mean that people like you or me could afford them. Insurance or not.

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some new guy

I've been a small business owner for 32 years now and taxes are my least favorite thing in the world - if I had to pay more taxes so every American can get free universal healthcare, I'd be cool with it

BEST - Ron

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Wendigo Wangs

Meh philioshpically all choices are selfish in some way.

Like I know the point you're trying to make but on a diffrent subject.

Choosing to bring a life into the world is defintly selfish. The baby didn't choose it. The parent did because of how it made them feel

you don't have children, do you?

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spartan max2

you don't have children, do you?

I'm 22 but don't plan on it.

But that's unrelated to the fact that choosing to have kids is just as selfish as choosing not too.

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and then

I've been a small business owner for 32 years now and taxes are my least favorite thing in the world - if I had to pay more taxes so every American can get free universal healthcare, I'd be cool with it

BEST - Ron

I think most people would... but that doesn't mean that business builders and investors aren't going to flee this nation en mass if the top rate became 80% or 90%. When the incentive to become wealthy is removed then history has shown repeatedly that excellence becomes extremely scarce. Can we reach a better balance? Absolutely, but foisting socialism on America just isn't going to work. It is extremely disturbing to me that so many of the youth actually believe it is desirable.
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