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Violent Pegida anti Islam demo's breakout


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Whoa, such symbols and patterns are all over Europe since time immemorial. Clothing, tattoos, even gravestones:

If you think Hitler was buried there... you are many centuries wrong.

Of course the Swastika is a very old, Eastern symbol that was found around the world but the Nazi Party and Hitler pretty much defaced it in the West's collective unconscious. It's now highly stigmatized, like it or not and a Westerner wearing this symbol today is bound to be regarded with some suspicion/misgivings.

Edited by EEHC
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Of course the Swastika is a very old, Eastern symbol that was found around the world but the Nazi Party and Hitler pretty much defaced it in the West's collective unconscious. It's now highly stigmatized, like it or not and a Westerner wearing this symbol today is bound to be regarded with some suspicion/misgivings.

It’s debatable if it’s exclusively Eastern in origin(s), but that is not the point in this thread.

In the large part of European unconscious (I wouldn’t call it collective, but I won’t nitpick about it either) red stars have equally negative contemporary meaning the swastika does. The difference is that swastika has history immensely longer than 12-ish years of Nazism, while red star was invented historically speaking yesterday and has no other meaning.

Just because some people are not informed of European (often their own) history and heritage doesn’t mean those who are should ditch one of the oldest and most powerful symbols. We won’t ditch other cross-like symbols either, though they might be put in wrong context of aggressive Christianization that did huge damage to our traditions.

Swastika is Nazi symbol only in one particular form and in very specific context - when the bearer is an actual Nazi, not when the bearer is suspect of being one by, say, overzealous lefties. Do not confuse Nazis with people who appreciate their cultural identity.

In Baltic and Slavic lands there was more than enough of filtering and destroying heritage, to suit the communist needs.

The symbol of that prolonged culturocide is red star.

Still I don’t throw hysteric fits when I see it, because I know a red star doesn’t automatically make something or someone communist. I need context first. There’s always time for labels later.

Aaaand back on topic, Pegida annoys me. They're taking it far too far, but it's still pretty idiotic to assume all the p***ed off people they gather are Nazis. They are mostly exactly that - p***ed off people. And I think it's not hard to imagine why they are p***ed off.

I spent too much time in too many threads (to no avail, of course) explaining the migrants who pass through my country (Croatia) on their way to mostly Germany, are mostly just very exhausted, scared and genuine refugees (from war, hunger or both). This is not their fault. And now I spent too much time explaining there's more than one meaning to many symbols, cross and swastika among them. So I can spend some more time pointing out Pegida wouldn't stand a chance if only there was a little more tolerance for the domestic traditions. In all the tolerance for the imported ones, there must be some left for the locals too?

And that's about it. I'll be in Fun&Games in case anyone wants to waste time in less futile way than this.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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p***ed off, emotional / fearful people who - based on tendentious mainstream media reports - have been massaged to be afraid of 'the others', 'them', 'not us'.. Focussing on their, for all intents and purposes, peers (fellow citizens) as the culprit, while ignoring the true culprit, true source of the situation: our resp. governments. They are to blame for this, no one else. They should be held accountable (for a change), no one else.

Edited by Phaeton80
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I love Pegida. Heroes. Just like the EDL and Britain First. Everybody should get behind these lads.

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I love Pegida. Heroes. Just like the EDL and Britain First. Everybody should get behind these lads.

No one, no matter their message, who drapes themselves in the imagery of one of the foulest regimes humanity has ever seen deserves to be called "heroes".

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No one, no matter their message, who drapes themselves in the imagery of one of the foulest regimes humanity has ever seen deserves to be called "heroes".

Erm... How anti-pegida commies, responsible for death, torture, displacement of tens of millions, are any better?
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Erm... How anti-pegida commies, responsible for death, torture, displacement of tens of millions, are any better?

So, because of this, everyone else get's a pass?

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Where did I stated that, huh?

When you stated this:

Erm... How anti-pegida commies, responsible for death, torture, displacement of tens of millions, are any better?

In response to this:

No one, no matter their message, who drapes themselves in the imagery of one of the foulest regimes humanity has ever seen deserves to be called "heroes".

"Are any better?" A moral comparison of the two, equating that since one is bad, it must be okay that the other is as well.

I'm assuming you didn't mean it that way, but think before posting the "two wrongs make a right" stuff in the future.

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Erm... How anti-pegida commies, responsible for death, torture, displacement of tens of millions, are any better?

Where did I state that, huh?

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I love Pegida. Heroes. Just like the EDL and Britain First. Everybody should get behind these lads.

I have not heard of Pegida cutting off any heads lately, raping children, or going in a host country with bragging rights to the locals concerning ..'what they can get by with.' If the 'leaders' of these countries did the bidding for their people rather than kiss the backend of a few that put their face on the front of 'Time' magazine and hand out phoney peace awards....Pegida would not be immerging.

Good post Black Monk... :tu: ...you have my vote!

seax B)

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I have not heard of Pegida cutting off any heads lately, raping children, or going in a host country with bragging rights to the locals concerning ..'what they can get by with.' If the 'leaders' of these countries did the bidding for their people rather than kiss the backend of a few that put their face on the front of 'Time' magazine and hand out phoney peace awards....Pegida would not be immerging.

'PEGIDA' is nothing more than an anti-immigrant xenophobic movement. It's the same old far-right, neo-Nazi types taking Islam as a new hobby-horse in the hope of rallying support for their extreme ideology. I am quite amazed that rational, well-balanced people would consider them ''heroes''. They are not.

Edited by EEHC
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If the 'leaders' of these countries did the bidding for their people rather than kiss the backend of a few that put their face on the front of 'Time' magazine and hand out phoney peace awards....Pegida would not be immerging.

So what people should the Governments be doing the bidding of? This is not simply a case of black and white, I'm sorry to break it to you, but there is no definitive 'us and them' line that can be drawn, that is pure fantasy, a world in which a sad few of the myriad cliques and factions involved in this whole sorry business seem to live.

So who exactly are you classifying as 'the people'? Pegida, National Front? I also have to break it to you that just because a few thousand people turn up for a few Fascist Rallies, that does not make them representative of even a fraction of a percentage of those effected by the Migrant Crisis.

This deluded stance is absolutely indicative of the issues we face now. It's all about change, one way or another. A terrorist wants to bring about change, through force. These Western extremists want to prevent change, by force. Now be clear I am not making any statement about motives here, but one thing both groups have in common, and this is the kicker. Neither group thinks about what happens after. Who leads after? Who picks up the pieces? Who, in this world that has been changed by violence then takes over and leads in a world of calm and peace? Do we think the terrorist groups, the extremist groups should be doing this? I am sure all extremist parties operate on the assumption that after their inevitable victory, they will be heralded as saviours by all concerned.... Silliness.

Food for thought, I don't have the answers, I wish that I did, but I am fairly certain I know who else doesn't have the answers.

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.

Pegida is against the Islamification of Europe -

Are those people who are against Pegida in favour of the Islamification of Europe ?

.

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.

Pegida is against the Islamification of Europe -

Are those people who are against Pegida in favour of the Islamification of Europe ?

.

If you do not support a Cancer Research Charity, does that mean you don't ever wish to see a cure for Cancer?

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If you do not support a Cancer Research Charity, does that mean you don't ever wish to see a cure for Cancer?

that was very evasive -

spit it out - are you in favour of the Islamification of Europe or not ----- ?

.

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that was very evasive -

spit it out - are you in favour of the Islamification of Europe or not ----- ?

.

Sorry nope. I guess the analogy was missed on you.

I'll break it down then. Why just because someone disagrees with one philosophy or method amongst many would you then assume that someone is for anything? School yard antics.

I remember when I was at school, one particular idiot asking me if I had slept with his Mom. When I inevitably replied that I hadn't, he then gave me a wallop and accused me of suggesting that his Mom was ugly.

If you want a straight answer just ask the question, don't try to bait people into it, as clever as you may think you are being.

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So what people should the Governments be doing the bidding of? This is not simply a case of black and white, I'm sorry to break it to you, but there is no definitive 'us and them' line that can be drawn, that is pure fantasy, a world in which a sad few of the myriad cliques and factions involved in this whole sorry business seem to live.

So who exactly are you classifying as 'the people'? Pegida, National Front? I also have to break it to you that just because a few thousand people turn up for a few Fascist Rallies, that does not make them representative of even a fraction of a percentage of those effected by the Migrant Crisis.

This deluded stance is absolutely indicative of the issues we face now. It's all about change, one way or another. A terrorist wants to bring about change, through force. These Western extremists want to prevent change, by force. Now be clear I am not making any statement about motives here, but one thing both groups have in common, and this is the kicker. Neither group thinks about what happens after. Who leads after? Who picks up the pieces? Who, in this world that has been changed by violence then takes over and leads in a world of calm and peace? Do we think the terrorist groups, the extremist groups should be doing this? I am sure all extremist parties operate on the assumption that after their inevitable victory, they will be heralded as saviours by all concerned.... Silliness.

Food for thought, I don't have the answers, I wish that I did, but I am fairly certain I know who else doesn't have the answers.

Hello Gray Area,

I was referring to these governments allowing all these refugees come into their country without any vetting. Those people did not have to go into Germany...they don't have to come to the US. The two cultures don't mix. I was saying when government don't do it's job....it causes issues...like Pegida. I believe it is better to focus on who the real enemy is rather than put the blame somewhere else. Governments are good for doing that, Barry is doing it here now. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. :yes:

I see your point and its well taken, thank you for the post.

seax :tu:

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Sorry nope. I guess the analogy was missed on you.

I'll break it down then. Why just because someone disagrees with one philosophy or method amongst many would you then assume that someone is for anything? School yard antics.

I remember when I was at school, one particular idiot asking me if I had slept with his Mom. When I inevitably replied that I hadn't, he then gave me a wallop and accused me of suggesting that his Mom was ugly.

If you want a straight answer just ask the question, don't try to bait people into it, as clever as you may think you are being.

re underlined

ok - I'll try again -

Are you in favour of the Islamification of Europe?

Because if you AREN'T then you share the aims of pegida although you may not agree with what some (minority) sections represent -

I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority are just ordinary people who don't like the way they see their country going -

The Main Stream media are naturally going to try and portray pegida as right wing thugs - it's called PROPAGANDA -

How hard would it be to use 'Agent Provocateurs' to try and put people off going on demonstrations.?

.

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'PEGIDA' is nothing more than an anti-immigrant xenophobic movement. It's the same old far-right, neo-Nazi types taking Islam as a new hobby-horse in the hope of rallying support for their extreme ideology. I am quite amazed that rational, well-balanced people would consider them ''heroes''. They are not.

Hello EEHC, I understand your point and its well taken. But my point is this, government for its lack of ....by allowing things like this to occur encourage groups like Pegida to emerge, and I'm referring to allowing these people to come in the country...not knowing who they are and then letting them run rampant is going to cause trouble. Then the govt. wants to put the full force of the law down on the ones that oppose ....what the government should have never allowed... while letting the 'guest' have their way. This is a formula for disaster and in my opinion cowardace. Here in the states Barry goes to radical Mosque and tells preaches to them how bad the Americans are treating the Muslims in this country....it isn't there...but he uses that for political reasons. We are all treated like mushrooms...kept in the dark and fed a lot of BS.

I don't deny what you are saying, you know better that I ....but this was my reasoning for the post I made. Thank you for the information.

seax :tu:

Edited by seax
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re underlined

ok - I'll try again -

Are you in favour of the Islamification of Europe?

Because if you AREN'T then you share the aims of pegida although you may not agree with what some (minority) sections represent -

I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority are just ordinary people who don't like the way they see their country going -

The Main Stream media are naturally going to try and portray pegida as right wing thugs - it's called PROPAGANDA -

How hard would it be to use 'Agent Provocateurs' to try and put people off going on demonstrations.?

.

Then to answer your question, no I am not in favour of the <Insert faith here>isation of any country/government, as seemingly inescapable as that realistically is.

I have no problems answering any reasonable questions, but your question is loaded, and I certainly wouldn't adopt an 'enemy of my enemy' attitude as I feel in this area it is the means that will justify the ends, not the other way around.

But I do not want to get too hung up on Pegida alone. But my intial point is that with all extremist groups, there is no scope beyond victory, no long term strategic planning, and this is why ultimately any extremist group will be unsuccessful, and similarly why only the close to the middle political parties have the majority, because the narrower the focus, the more potential supporters become excluded.

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Then to answer your question, no I am not in favour of the <Insert faith here>isation of any country/government, as seemingly inescapable as that realistically is.

you just can't bring yourself to say it can you --- ^_^ ----so I suppose half an answer will have to do ---

I have no problems answering any reasonable questions, but your question is loaded, and I certainly wouldn't adopt an 'enemy of my enemy' attitude as I feel in this area it is the means that will justify the ends, not the other way around.

my question could be looked at as 'loaded' --- but equally it could be looked at as 'simplified' --

But I do not want to get too hung up on Pegida alone. But my intial point is that with all extremist groups, there is no scope beyond victory, no long term strategic planning, and this is why ultimately any extremist group will be unsuccessful, and similarly why only the close to the middle political parties have the majority, because the narrower the focus, the more potential supporters become excluded.

but what if the extremist image that Pegida gets lumbered with is more to do with government propaganda and agent provocateurs?

and minority groups who are into violence and see an opportunity to 'get stuck in' -

Like I said --- I think the majority of Pegida and indeed the majority of the peoples of Europe don't want their societies Islamified -

.

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but what if the extremist image that Pegida gets lumbered with is more to do with government propaganda and agent provocateurs?

Maybe, I'm open minded, happy to exclude them from my statement if it does turn out they have been inappropriately represented.

the majority of the peoples of Europe don't want their societies Islamified -

And rightly so. But just because of this does not mean they become defacto members of Pegida or other groups.

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