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Roy Perry

"Priest says Hell is an invention of the

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Roy Perry

Hell is just the grave that you are in someday and me too

Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave

Strong's Concordance in hebrew 7585 sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

Greek 067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).

Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that "matches" their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment.

your resurrection body has no flesh and bone it just the image of you

like God image it cannot be seen it invisible

more or less like anything we known in life do not fear hell

Lucifer was a king of OT

Isaiah 14:12-14King James Version (KJV)

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

This was a man no more no less

love Roy

Edited by Roy Perry

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Mr Walker

Rubbish Walker. That only applies to people like you that have the audacity to think they can comprehend God.

Many people believe in a God above their comprehension and understanding. Actually the Judaistic God is just that, as evidenced by his non appearance (instead appearing through angels or as a burning bush or a blinding light ) or depiction and the relatively well-known concept in Kabbalah of 'the Abyss' , where, above the level of all possible human conceptions, lies at least 3 levels of the ' manifestations of God' .

It isnt until we get down half way in the hierarchy (on the Tree of Life) that man can really comprehend God's interaction with him, and this is depicted as an inaccurate observation as it is perceived through a 'veil' .

Historically, this can also be seen as the 'coming of Christ ' who relates to 'Tiphareth' ('glory' ) and it is from this position (man rising up to meet God, that ideas of reflection ( in God's image ) come from . That is , it is an idea about God from man.

One cant apply 'pre-fall' concepts to 'post-fall' ones .

OK so they believe in a god beyond their comprehension and understanding. Then how do they know what attributes it has and why do they think it has the slightest interest in them? Why accept its laws or expectations? Why act to propitiate it ? What do they think it does? What do they think it wants from them?

This is actually impossible.

You cant have a god you cant imagine or know.

If we construct a belief in a god it is generated from inside our mind and thus HAS to be/just iS, comprehensible to us as, we cannot mentally construct any thing incomprehensible.

Second if we can recognise a real thing as a god there must be reason why we see it as a god.

The same rules as for a mental construct apply

Unless we can first "perceive" the being, and second believe it is a god then it cannot BE a god .

All the gods you describe are comprehended and understood by man, even the way they are sometimes constructed to be incomprehensible is a comprehensible and understood process. Certainly we inject "mystery" into things, and certainly gods come into being to explain things we don't fully comprehend, but my original point remains accurate. Unless we can recognise an entity as god or god like it cant be a god to us Thus cats and dogs to not have gods There may be dozens of god like beings in the galaxy which we never recognise as gods because we never meet them OR because they have absolutely no interest in us.

So, were the gods you describe imagined and constructed from man's mind? If so we certainly understand and comprehend them . Take the Judaic god. They invested it with the abilities they imagined it had, OR they recognised properties it actually had (even the abilty of god to appear on earth like a man is described in the old testament .

Were they real beings? if so then we could RECOGNISE and understand the qualities which made us call them gods.

I cant fully comprehend or understand all the elements of my wife but still i CAN comprehend and understand her, and her relationship to my body and mind and why she is my wife not my sister or some random woman.

If i had an imaginary wife all this would also apply

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker

Then "Hell" is a metaphor of extreme hardship. In that case hell exist on a personal level. We all go through hell.

he-who-knows-nothing-is-closer-to-the-truth-than-he-whose-mind-is-filled-with-falsehoods-and-errors-thomas-jefferson.jpg

Heaven and hell BOTH are states of mind. Hence christ's words about finding the kingdom of heaven on earth. But if one is living in heaven then one CANNOT also be living in hell.

We can make a mental choice (and act in ways) which will ensure our life, even on this earth, is like living in heaven. NO one, even here on earth, has to be living in hell.

Hardship disease , poverty, war and violence? Yes, until we decide to prevent this, but hell, ? No.. We can DECIDE where we live in our mind, be it heaven or hell

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Stubbly_Dooright

This guy tells the truth.

I find myself intrigued that he, that wears a priest's outfit, would actually say that. I could be wrong on what one does or does not believe, and what they do and what their role is in religion.

But I was intrigued all the same.

Well said BTE!

To even suggest one can comprehend God is the greatest arrogance of all, IMO.

What MW shares for me is his own intellectual handicaps.

You know, pretty much my belief, the core of it, is that we should not know. I don't think it's for controlling, in a weird underhanded way, but for the fact it's how it is in this plane of life.

And yeah, it could be shown as a big part of arrogance too. ;):yes:

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Mr Walker

Well said BTE!

To even suggest one can comprehend God is the greatest arrogance of all, IMO.

What MW shares for me is his own intellectual handicaps.

Well then, how do you determine if anything (real or imagined) is a god/ non god, without the abilty to comprehend what a god is? (or is not)

I suspect you fully comprehend the concepts constructs and parameters which humans attach to our gods and that does NOT make you arrogant, just human because ONLY humans, of all creatures on earth, have this abilty.

Humans identify and determine what a god is, using exactly the same cognitive processes we use to determine what is a dog, (real entity ) or a dragon. (imaginaryconstruct).

Edited by Mr Walker
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back to earth

OK so they believe in a god beyond their comprehension and understanding. Then how do they know what attributes it has and why do they think it has the slightest interest in them?

because their concept of God has qualities that penetrate below the Abyss, through the 7 empyreans all the way down to earth and the forces of nature. But these are reflections of , 'nodes' or 'spheres' (Sephiroth) of God's 'outreach' they are not the essential nature of God, which is in unity ... but we can only perceive in duality.

Why accept its laws or expectations? Why act to propitiate it ? What do they think it does? What do they think it wants from them?

This is actually impossible.

No, it only seems impossible to you because you do not understand their philosophy and viewpoints. And probably the issue that I am being brief, out of necessity, and assuming anyone trained in theology would know exactly what my brief comments refer to .

You cant have a god you cant imagine or know.

Of course I can ! Who are you to tell me what sort of God I can have ? Of all subjects .... the different concepts of people's Gods would have to be the thing most removed from your or anyone else's cans or cants , logics or common senses !

If you want to insist 'cant' take it up with a Rabbi ...... or enter into reasonable discussion with me about it ... a certain amount of background in ancient theology might be required .... if you want to read up first , start with Tzim-tzum .

If we construct a belief in a god it is generated from inside our mind and thus HAS to be/just iS, comprehensible to us as, we cannot mentally construct any thing incomprehensible.

Even if that is correct - what follows is ; if God is not a constructed belief from inside our minds then the highest aspects of God or 'God in his own reality' in no way suggests God should not be incomprehensible. This is mystical Judaism , the source of much of the ideas behind Christian deity ( when they used to discuss such issues with depth and significance and in context with a 'perennial philosophy' ... very unlike the pop uneducated concepts of your 'average Christian poster ' ).

I cant fully comprehend or understand all the elements of my wife but still i CAN comprehend and understand ... why she is my wife not my sister .

I bet both your wife and your sister are glad to hear that !

:unsure2::cry:

What you cannot fully comprehend or understand in your wife is that portion 'above the abyss'. the bits where you relate to her are part of her below the abyss, but you cannot, as you admit, fully contemplate or understand her.

Like the Kabbalists , of course they know of their God ... it is that God's full essence or being or totality HAS to be beyond theirs .

Of course, I am not saying God has to be a total unknown factor on all levels ... ( as your silly argument seems to be making out ) ... the jews themselves affirm this in their everyday mundane religion and scripture .

I did say I was taking on a deeper level ... a mystical interpretation of Judaism .

But you, suffering from hubris (evident on many occasions here ) dont like to think a God can be beyond your capabilities of perception .

If i had an imaginary wife all this would also apply

Except for the number of titties

:-*

Edited by back to earth
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Mr Walker

because their concept of God has qualities that penetrate below the Abyss, through the 7 empyreans all the way down to earth and the forces of nature. But these are reflections of , 'nodes' or 'spheres' (Sephiroth) of God's 'outreach' they are not the essential nature of God, which is in unity ... but we can only perceive in duality.

No, it only seems impossible to you because you do not understand their philosophy and viewpoints. And probably the issue that I am being brief, out of necessity, and assuming anyone trained in theology would know exactly what my brief comments refer to .

Of course I can ! Who are you to tell me what sort of God I can have ? Of all subjects .... the different concepts of people's Gods would have to be the thing most removed from your or anyone else's cans or cants , logics or common senses !

If you want to insist 'cant' take it up with a Rabbi ...... or enter into reasonable discussion with me about it ... a certain amount of background in ancient theology might be required .... if you want to read up first , start with Tzim-tzum .

Even if that is correct - what follows is ; if God is not a constructed belief from inside our minds then the highest aspects of God or 'God in his own reality' in no way suggests God should not be incomprehensible. This is mystical Judaism , the source of much of the ideas behind Christian deity ( when they used to discuss such issues with depth and significance and in context with a 'perennial philosophy' ... very unlike the pop uneducated concepts of your 'average Christian poster ' ).

I bet both your wife and your sister are glad to hear that !

:unsure2::cry:

What you cannot fully comprehend or understand in your wife is that portion 'above the abyss'. the bits where you relate to her are part of her below the abyss, but you cannot, as you admit, fully contemplate or understand her.

Like the Kabbalists , of course they know of their God ... it is that God's full essence or being or totality HAS to be beyond theirs .

Of course, I am not saying God has to be a total unknown factor on all levels ... ( as your silly argument seems to be making out ) ... the jews themselves affirm this in their everyday mundane religion and scripture .

I did say I was taking on a deeper level ... a mystical interpretation of Judaism .

But you, suffering from hubris (evident on many occasions here ) dont like to think a God can be beyond your capabilities of perception .

Except for the number of titties

:-*

she has three, like all space aliens.

Your post makes absolutely clear what i meant ( i am not sure what others thought i meant)

You have just perfectly created not just a god but a entire mythology to go with it, then applied the mythology to the real world in the form of my wife. All in jest one assumes but that is irrelevant. You were able to do it in a few seconds. You would not be able to do that unless you understood and comprehended those gods and had a clear, even if brief, internal understanding of your construct. .

I didn't say a god could not exist, beyond my level of comprehension, ie i did not say that i could comprehend the purpose nature etc of gods .

What i said was that IF it was beyond my level of comprehension then it could not be a god to me. I would not recognise it or know what it was unless i had some comprehension of its existence and its nature.

To be a god to ME i must be able to do two things. First, comprehend its existence. Second, comprehend that it IS (in relation to me) a god. Then it becomes a god .

This is true for all human gods.

God is a word we attach to certain entities, real or imagined, which fit certain constructed ideas about who and what gods are.

Edited by Mr Walker

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back to earth

Then that also assumes a construct I made that I cannot understand. I will leave you with that one to rationalise .

The whole point of the Judaistic deity is that it isnt a human construct Walker .

Again, if you want to debate their concepts, at least get familiar with them .

I mean 'fer God's sake ' ( :) ) they were not even allowed to pronounce God's name ! Let alone attempt to portray an image of YHVH .

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back to earth

Faust conjures Lucifer to appear (on earth ) ;

" Faust. Was not that Lucifer an angel once?

Meph. Yes, Faustus, and most dearly lov’d of God.

Faust. How comes it then that he is Prince of devils?

Meph. O, by aspiring pride and insolence;

For which God threw him from the face of Heaven.

Faust. And what are you that you live with Lucifer?

Meph. Unhappy spirits that fell with Lucifer,

Conspir’d against our God with Lucifer,

And are for ever damn’d with Lucifer.

Faust. Where are you damn’d?

Meph. In hell.

Faust. How comes it then that thou art out of hell?

Meph. Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. "

- Marlowe

yarmouk_custom-cf646e75c4c219a46f38e10d17577b7e4a3954bb-s900-c85.jpg

Edited by back to earth
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XenoFish

The gods of man are a feeble grasp at infinity.

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back to earth

" This word “damnation” terrifies not him,

For he confounds hell in Elysium "

- Marlowe

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Hammerclaw

" This word “damnation” terrifies not him,

For he confounds hell in Elysium "

- Marlowe

Marlowe played Mass Effect?

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docyabut2

Hell is here, but there are people that want to make it a worst hell. Heaven is here also and there `s been many people that have come and gone that tried to make it a better place.(peace into this bitter place)

Edited by docyabut2
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back to earth

Time, place and circumstances .... and how you deal with them all play their part. Heaven or hell can be on earth .

Fortune ? I dont know. I do feel fortunate ... extremely fortunate .

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Mr Walker

Then that also assumes a construct I made that I cannot understand. I will leave you with that one to rationalise .

The whole point of the Judaistic deity is that it isnt a human construct Walker .

Again, if you want to debate their concepts, at least get familiar with them .

I mean 'fer God's sake ' ( :) ) they were not even allowed to pronounce God's name ! Let alone attempt to portray an image of YHVH .

Err !! If the jewish god is not a human construct of the mind, then how do we "know' him?

He most certainly exists within our minds, (if we have ever heard of him) whether or not he exits any where else.

Even with real things like dogs, humans construct understandings of them within their minds, and all non real things only exist as mental constructs. I know/understand that humans, including the jews, invest their gods with reality and claim the y are not just mental constructs; but, real or not, they only exist as human gods because we make them so in our minds. And so the rules about images and speaking his name are rules HUMANS have constructed, because that is how THEY want to, or feel that they have to, relate to their chosen construct of god.

And while you can construct an concept, and leave gaps in your understanding of it, that is ALL your own work, even the gaps. You could fill them in if you wanted to, if the entity is only a construct of your mind. If it is real then the gaps require greater knowledge and understanding but STILL you know enough to recognise, name,and have some idea about that entity, otherwise it would not exist in your mind, for you to tell me about it. .

Edited by Mr Walker

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back to earth

Err !! If the jewish god is not a human construct of the mind, then how do we "know' him?

Jeeze man ! .... Okay then ;

If I was a Jew I would say he is not a construct in our mind, wouldnt I ... that is the whole point of believing in Judaism ! I would know him as he sent messengers , prophets ... and signs and omens .... you know all this !

If back to earth answers he will explain how the religion is a political construct designed in captivity and the scripture was ghost written and post dated .

... < silly waffle extended from the above silly question compounded with philosophical issues about observation and perception, that Walker denied in other posts where the same issues where pointed out to him, deleted > ..... .

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Mr Walker

Jeeze man ! .... Okay then ;

If I was a Jew I would say he is not a construct in our mind, wouldnt I ... that is the whole point of believing in Judaism ! I would know him as he sent messengers , prophets ... and signs and omens .... you know all this !

If back to earth answers he will explain how the religion is a political construct designed in captivity and the scripture was ghost written and post dated .

if you were a jew you might say he was not a construct of your mind in the sense that you haven't just made him uo, but you cannot argue that you do not understand and construct the nature and power of "yaweh" from the teachings of your parents, rabbi or torah, etc.

Thus, as an individual human you construct the understanding of your god from what you learn about him, and your own thoughts on him.

It is how a human being constructs their understanding of ANYTHING,. from a god to a dog.

You point this out by explaining how, as BTE, you have developed your own conceptual understanding of the nature of jaweh, which is quite different to a jewish one.

Everything, real and imagined, is constructed within a human mind so we can make sense of it and understand it and chose how to relate to it. That is what our minds DO A dog is not simply an animal entity to a human being.

It IS what we perceive and believe it to be; friend, lunch, god, a nuisance, or a lifetime companion.

It doesn't matter if the dog has real independent existence or is only an imaginary dog. Our minds construct our understanding of it, and our relationship to it, in an identical way which is.unique to each of us. And yet almost every human knows what a dog is, can identify one, and can describe its basic characteristics; so we ALSO have a commonality of understanding about what a dog is and what a dog is not, as well as our unique personal understanding of a dog.

Edited by Mr Walker

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back to earth

yeah ?

photo-thumb-150127.jpg?_r=1409109866

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Mr Walker

yeah ?

photo-thumb-150127.jpg?_r=1409109866

YEAH!!

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Sherapy

Then that also assumes a construct I made that I cannot understand. I will leave you with that one to rationalise .

The whole point of the Judaistic deity is that it isnt a human construct Walker .

Again, if you want to debate their concepts, at least get familiar with them .

I mean 'fer God's sake ' ( :) ) they were not even allowed to pronounce God's name ! Let alone attempt to portray an image of YHVH .

Exactly!

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Stubbly_Dooright

Hell is here, but there are people that want to make it a worst hell. Heaven is here also and there `s been many people that have come and gone that tried to make it a better place.(peace into this bitter place)

From the movie, "Defending your life"

Daniel Miller: Is this Heaven?

Bob Diamond: No, it isn't Heaven.

Daniel Miller: Is it Hell?

Bob Diamond: Nope, it isn't Hell either. Actually, there is no Hell. Although I hear Los Angeles is getting pretty close.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101698/quotes
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Podo

A religious leader invented a lie in order to trick people?

f909693e92e7df0c9384801a6b0f1c05.jpg

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Mr Walker

Exactly!

And just whom do you suppose created and constructed those concepts about the; existence, qualities, and nature of their god, and how they were supposed to relate to it.? God or man?

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back to earth

Now walker is trying to manoeuvre into some type of atheist position .... while in the next forum up he is lauding the truth of the bible .

The answer is the same Walker, no matter how much you rephrase and twist the question ;

" And just whom do you suppose created and constructed those concepts about the; existence, qualities, and nature of their god, and how they were supposed to relate to it.? God or man? "

If you dont believe in the religion you will see the answer is that the information came from man .

If you believe in a religion you will see the answer is that the information came from God

- does this really have to be explained to you .

I do not believe in that religion so I see it came from man.

Now, what is your belief and where do you think the information comes from .....

... step carefully now .... you have entered a corner of your yard covered in dog poop with this one !

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docyabut2

From the movie, "Defending your life"

http://www.imdb.com/...t0101698/quotes[/background][/size][/font][/color]

remembering that move:) when I went to Cleveland Clinic with my hubby ,there were those scuttle buses of sick people in wheel chairs going every where and I thought if this is not hell what is. :) Edited by docyabut2
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