An ecocultural model on HSS vs HS Neanderthal

[Hanslune]

So lets see some of the ideas about what happened to the HSN

Genocide by HSS

Killed off by disease introduced by HSS

Driven off their land by HSS and starved to death

Peaceful intergration

HSN had some genetic defect that killed them off - heads of children became to large and caused a large percentage of birth deaths

HSN lost the will to live when faced by a superior culture

A combination of all of these - this seems the most likely.

Can anyone add any other possibilities?

[cormac mac airt]

So lets see some of the ideas about what happened to the HSN

Genocide by HSS

Killed off by disease introduced by HSS

Driven off their land by HSS and starved to death

Peaceful intergration

HSN had some genetic defect that killed them off - heads of children became to large and caused a large percentage of birth deaths

HSN lost the will to live when faced by a superior culture

A combination of all of these - this seems the most likely.

Can anyone add any other possibilities?

Hss outperformed the already declining Neanderthal populations in the collection and utilization of available resources forcing Neanderthals into even smaller and smaller groups until there weren't enough members left to avoid the inevitable, extinction. Not even introgression of DNA from Neanderthals to Hss could help the formers predicament.

cormac

[Hanslune]

Hss outperformed the already declining Neanderthal populations in the collection and utilization of available resources forcing Neanderthals into even smaller and smaller groups until there weren't enough members left to avoid the inevitable, extinction. Not even introgression of DNA from Neanderthals to Hss could help the formers predicament.

cormac

Yes and I thought of another, well a variant of another, that the more successful HSS bred faster and instead of an equal DNA hybrid the HSN were absorbed into the much larger pool. The same thing happened/is happening to the remaining native Americans in the 48.

[atalante]

So lets see some of the ideas about what happened to the HSN

Genocide by HSS

Killed off by disease introduced by HSS

Driven off their land by HSS and starved to death

Peaceful intergration

HSN had some genetic defect that killed them off - heads of children became to large and caused a large percentage of birth deaths

HSN lost the will to live when faced by a superior culture

A combination of all of these - this seems the most likely.

Can anyone add any other possibilities?

quote from: http://www.science20.com/news/did_global_warming_and_not_competiton_with_modern_man_kill_neanderthals

Climate – and not modern humans – was the cause of the Neanderthal extinction in the Iberian Peninsula. Such is the conclusion of the University of Granada research group RNM 179 - Mineralogy and Geochemistry of sedimentary and metamorphic environments, headed by professor Miguel Ortega Huertas....

.... Together with other scientists from the Gibraltar Museum, Stanford University and the Japan Marine Science & Technology Center (JAMSTEC), the Spanish scientists published in the scientific journal Quaternary Science Reviews an innovative work representing a considerable step forward in the knowledge of human ancestral history. The results of this multidisciplinary research are an important contribution to the understanding of the Neanderthal extinction and the colonisation of the European continent by Homo Sapiens.

During the last Ice Age, the Iberian Peninsula was a refuge for Neanderthals, who had survived in local pockets during previous Ice Ages, bouncing back to Europe when weather conditions improved.

Climate reconstructions

The study is based upon climate reconstructions elaborated from marine records and using the experience of Spanish and international research groups on Western Mediterranean paleoceanography. The conclusions point out that Neanderthal populations did suffer fluctuations related to climate changes before the first Homo Sapiens arrived in the Iberian Peninsula. Cold, arid and highly variable climate was the least favourable weather for Neanderthals and 24,000 years ago they had to face the worst weather conditions in the last 250,000 years.

endquote

[cormac mac airt]

As a current study has pushed the extinction of Neanderthals back to c.40,000 BP the date in the article of c.24,000 BP, which is often associated with the start of the Last Glacial Maximum, is irrelevant to the discussion. In short, the article is dated and incorrect as to timeframe.

cormac

[Taun]

So lets see some of the ideas about what happened to the HSN

Genocide by HSS

Killed off by disease introduced by HSS

Driven off their land by HSS and starved to death

Peaceful intergration

HSN had some genetic defect that killed them off - heads of children became to large and caused a large percentage of birth deaths

HSN lost the will to live when faced by a superior culture

A combination of all of these - this seems the most likely.

Can anyone add any other possibilities?

From "Live Science":

"In fact, new genetic evidence from the remains of six Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) suggests the population hovered at an average of 1,500 females of

reproductive age in Europe between 38,000 and 70,000 years ago, with the maximum estimate of 3,500 such female Neanderthals."

With that small of a breeding base, and the slow manner of long distance travel back then leading to greater isolation, could inbreeding be a contributing cause?

edit to add the danged link:

http://www.livescience.com/5570-neanderthals-poised-extinction.html

Edited February 18, 2016 by Taun

[Hanslune]

From "Live Science":

"In fact, new genetic evidence from the remains of six Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) suggests the population hovered at an average of 1,500 females of

reproductive age in Europe between 38,000 and 70,000 years ago, with the maximum estimate of 3,500 such female Neanderthals."

With that small of a breeding base, and the slow manner of long distance travel back then leading to greater isolation, could inbreeding be a contributing cause?

edit to add the danged link:

http://www.livescien...extinction.html

That is very interesting and yes such a small breeding group might have problems with first cousin marriage and worse. Thanks for bringing that up link

I will add in this study

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/humans-mated-neandertals-much-earlier-and-more-frequently-thought

Which argues that HSS and HSN were breeding far earlier than presently thought.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Hanslune

[SSilhouette]

From "Live Science":

"In fact, new genetic evidence from the remains of six Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) suggests the population hovered at an average of 1,500 females of

reproductive age in Europe between 38,000 and 70,000 years ago, with the maximum estimate of 3,500 such female Neanderthals."

With that small of a breeding base, and the slow manner of long distance travel back then leading to greater isolation, could inbreeding be a contributing cause?

edit to add the danged link:

http://www.livescien...extinction.html

Instead of asking scholars that question, turn to the guy at the end of the bar tonight, you know that large fellow with the sloped brow and that back hair issue, and big heavy jaw what he thinks...

Edited February 19, 2016 by SSilhouette

[SSilhouette]

Proof's in the pudding as they say..

[cormac mac airt]

That is very interesting and yes such a small breeding group might have problems with first cousin marriage and worse. Thanks for bringing that up link

I will add in this study

http://www.sciencema...quently-thought

Which argues that HSS and HSN were breeding far earlier than presently thought.

Actually it's a bit more complex than that. What it shows is that an early line of H. sapiens c.100,000 BP (ancestral to our subspecies H.sapiens sapiens) mated with and caused an introgression of H. sapiens DNA into the Altai Neanderthal line while not contributing same into either the European Neanderthal or East Asian/Denisovan lines. It also suggests that said Altai Neanderthal line subsequently went extinct without contributing any DNA back into the Hs/Hss line, in other words the Altai Neanderthal line was a genetic dead end.

cormac

[Hanslune]

Actually it's a bit more complex than that. What it shows is that an early line of H. sapiens c.100,000 BP (ancestral to our subspecies H.sapiens sapiens) mated with and caused an introgression of H. sapiens DNA into the Altai Neanderthal line while not contributing same into either the European Neanderthal or East Asian/Denisovan lines. It also suggests that said Altai Neanderthal line subsequently went extinct without contributing any DNA back into the Hs/Hss line, in other words the Altai Neanderthal line was a genetic dead end.

cormac

Yes my original comment was to the fact they had done so but it is interesting to find that said line died out without influencing our present. Thanks for the information.

[SSilhouette]

Yes my original comment was to the fact they had done so but it is interesting to find that said line died out without influencing our present. Thanks for the information.

Nothing died out. It was absorbed. Look around. Go to the DMV and carefully observe the people you see...the differences.

[Jarocal]

Nothing died out. It was absorbed. Look around. Go to the DMV and carefully observe the people you see...the differences.

You do realize they are only talking about the Altai Neanderthal genetic line being a dead end and not the European Neanderthal line?

[Swede]

Nothing died out. It was absorbed. Look around. Go to the DMV and carefully observe the people you see...the differences.

While likely a bit beyond your level of comprehension/research/understandings, basing one's perceptions upon your quasi-agricultural observations, local "establishments", and your local DMV may not be the most sound bases for comprehensive interpretation. The following are merely brief examples of morphological studies. As you are hopefully aware, additional voluminous morphological studies, in combination with equally voluminous genetic studies quite nicely put your various and confused understandings into their proper perspective.

http://www.isita-org...on/24038629.pdf

http://www.understan...ality/jantz.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17680251

To re-emphasize:

• There are rather innumerable studies that address the osteological variations to be found within the range of H.s.s.
  
• That populations other than sub-Saharan populations carry a minor percentage (~2-4/5%) of the H.s.n. genome is a matter of record.
  
• That genetic expression can be the result of a number of factors.
  

.

[cormac mac airt]

Nothing died out. It was absorbed.* ~SNIP~.

Go back and read Post #35 again, as many times as it takes for you to understand what was being said, because apparently it went way over your head.

*One can't absorb something from a group that's already extinct. That something so simple went over your head says alot about your understanding, or rather lack thereof, of human genetics.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

I don't know, SS might be onto something. But I might switch the DMV to the average NASCAR audience.

Goodness, did I just say that?

[ShadowSot]

Hey, I've been to a few NASCAAR events.

[kmt_sesh]

Well, you're not included.

Okay, switch DMV and NASCAR to the average audience in an NFL stadium.

That one I have to stand by, based on the eyesore known as Soldier Field where the Chicago Bears lose play across the street from the Field Museum. Countless times I've observed the drunken louts stumbling in and out of there.

I'm really digging myself in deep, aren't I?

[SSilhouette]

Well, you're not included.

Okay, switch DMV and NASCAR to the average audience in an NFL stadium.

That one I have to stand by, based on the eyesore known as Soldier Field where the Chicago Bears lose play across the street from the Field Museum. Countless times I've observed the drunken louts stumbling in and out of there.

I'm really digging myself in deep, aren't I?

Nope. Calling things as they quite obviously are (the truth) is not digging anything in. It's our duty to each other. My friend's dad had back hair so thick, hair all over his body so thick that it curled into ringlets everywhere. He was one of those "basic guys" if you know what I mean..

[Tatetopa]

Not my field. I may be like coyote standing on a limb and sawing it off the tree. Cultural superiority sounds a bit Victorian or biblical to me. Its glib enough to make me nervous, but of course it may be true nonetheless. Are there any similarities with European incursion into the Americas? Were not diseases a major contributor to population decimation? Could migrating populations of H sapiens introduced disease vectors to isolated groups of Neanderthals who had not built up any resistance? Thanks for your patience.

[Tatetopa]

And by the way, in addition to the engineers, I get along pretty well with many of the ex-marine, country boy, gun owners at work. As somebody described, they are basic, but many have a core of virtue and honesty. It strikes me that we would make a good team during the Zombie Apocalypse. I could fix their generator and they could bring in the venison. Maybe similar bargains were struck by our ancestors.

[jmccr8]

I am open to the potential that they are actually quite similar in social structure, in part because of the geographic areas that they were known to have left evidence, and that those areas suffered very harsh living conditions and would affect the population grouth/death rate.

jmccr8

[SSilhouette]

On 2/15/2016 at 9:10 PM, back to earth said:

" My son, your head will never return to a normal shape unless you stop wearing this crazy hat . "

Yes.  Look at that slope from the brow ridge back.  Valuev seems to not have much in the way of a forehead/frontal lobe.

[Hanslune]

59 minutes ago, SSilhouette said:

Yes.  Look at that slope from the brow ridge back.  Valuev seems to not have much in the way of a forehead/frontal lobe.

...or he has a jutting brow.

[SSilhouette]

I like post #9.  With the gamut of homo sapiens running from spindly & small with big heads to massive & hairy with sloped brows, the theory fits with a logical theme.  It appeals to me.