Netanyahu plans fence around Israel

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

You mean like my ancestors did to native North Americans and yours did did to native Australians?

No one said they were reasonable people...

[+Hammerclaw]

No one said they were reasonable people...

When the Ulster Scots came to America it was said of them, "The Scotch-Irish kept the Sabbath---and any thing else they could get their hands on."

[Black Red Devil]

You start a war and lose the land that's just how things have always worked on planet earth. Before the USA occupied Mexico City in 1847 at the end of the Mexican/American war how much of the USA was labeled as Mexico? Seattle where I live was in Mexico, should we now give it back? Nope. So quit belly aching on behalf of the Palestinians, Nobody took they're land they, as the aggressors, lost it.

Oh really?! With this silly statement you've just disgraced and offended 183,000 US soldiers who died during WW2 in Europe fighting for freedom against an invasion of evil, occupation, intolerance, suppression and fanaticism. In case you weren't aware of it, the world works slightly differently these days. Invading and possessing is against Laws and morals of modern day society. This is just in response to your Mexican/US war analogy to the Israeli/Palestinian scenario which you obviously no nothing about.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Black Red Devil

[Black Red Devil]

You mean like my ancestors did to native North Americans and yours did did to native Australians?

No one said they were reasonable people...

[Black Red Devil]

As usual you distort or ignore outright what I ACTUALLY SAID - " Anyone who thinks that those 6 or 7 million Jews in Israel will be forced to pull stakes and simply give up aren't very logical."

No sane government would use nukes as anything but a very last ditch effort to survive - or, that failing, to destroy those who are destroying THEM. No Zionist evil in that stance, it's called MAD. Depending on the prevailing weather conditions Israel might survive relatively intact but that isn't really the issue, is it? The issue would be why that TINY, indeed, miniscule piece of land is so important to the whole world that we all seem willing to risk global annihilation to take it from the only people who ever really lived as a nation there. You can spew all the rhetoric you like but it really does get down to that simple point. The world is OBSESSED with that conflict over those few thousands of square miles of the Levant. We are all going to bleed in one way or another because of that obsession and that includes those safely(?) ensconced in Oz. A major war in that region will crush the economies of the world because of it's follow on effects on oil prices. Use of nukes would change EVERYTHING. Once any nation uses them again it will no longer be unthinkable. THEN we will find ourselves at the edge of the most dangerous abyss man has ever known. And for what? Really? So that Palestinians can live on land their family once owned(maybe) before the changes demanded by the world? I think I could even understand this sentiment if an agreement was struck allowing the Jews to keep at least a part of the land but the Palestinian leaders and people regularly give the lie to that idea. No, nothing less than the total removal of the Jew from the area would bring peace with the Palestinians. Even then, there are some who've said they'd have to search them out to destroy them. This is a supernatural hate and we all are being drawn into it.

LOL, is it just me or something is getting lost in rationality here. OK let's make it simple, I ask a question at a time and you answer.

Q. So what are those 6/7 million going to do if the world forces Israel (through sanctions) to give up occupied land to a Palestinian State?

[ian hacktorp]

Q. So what are those 6/7 million going to do if the world forces Israel (through sanctions) to give up occupied land to a Palestinian State?

No worries...Vicky Nudelman Kagan is working on a solution up north as we speak

[Jarocal]

Oh really?! With this silly statement you've just disgraced and offended 183,000 US soldiers who died during WW2 in Europe fighting for freedom against an invasion of evil, occupation, intolerance, suppression and fanaticism. In case you weren't aware of it, the world works slightly differently these days. Invading and possessing is against Laws and morals of modern day society. This is just in response to your Mexican/US war analogy to the Israeli/Palestinian scenario which you obviously no nothing about.

How long was Germany and Japan occupied by and U.S. and Soviet troops to keep order and rebuild a stable society? How many complain we stayed in Afghanistan and Iraq too long? Your right things aren't like they used to be. Western Society no longer has the desire to maintain a policy leading to a stable system in areas they muck about in. You could toss many South American and African countries into the mix on that mucking about too.

By your WW2 example Israel should have ocuppied all of the territories who attacked them and restructured their constitution and government under direct Military supervision not just the "Occupied Territories" They kept as a buffer. Then even after the countries were stable enough for independent rule Israel should have maintained Military Bases on their soil.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Jarocal

[+and-then]

LOL, is it just me or something is getting lost in rationality here. OK let's make it simple, I ask a question at a time and you answer.

Q. So what are those 6/7 million going to do if the world forces Israel (through sanctions) to give up occupied land to a Palestinian State?

They will resist until they cannot do so further then they will probably accommodate the world and pull their settlers from the land. That will possibly cause a civil war.

Now it's my turn:

I assume that the land you speak of is all the land that was won in the '67 war. Is this correct?

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

A split city is just a hotbed on discontent, so this "East Jersualem" stuff is just nonsense, or worse it's going to be the Gohlan Heights of the 21st century.

[SHaYap]

Watch Jewish Voice for Peace’s short, historically accurate animated introduction to Israel/Palestine:

~

~

Q: What is the struggle between israel and the palestinians about?

The violence between Israelis and Palestinians is often falsely presented as a conflict between two equal sides with irreconcilable claims to one piece of land.

In reality, this is a conflict over territory between a nation-state, Israel, with one of the world’s most powerful and well-funded militaries, and an indigenous population of Palestinians that has been occupied, displaced, and exiled for decades.

After watching JVP’s 101 video above, we recommend a more in-depth primer like

Phyllis Bennis’ “Understanding the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict–A Primer”.

• jewish voice for peace org link
  

~

[+and-then]

Watch Jewish Voice for Peace’s short, historically accurate animated introduction to Israel/Palestine:

~

~

• jewish voice for peace org link
  

~

The greatest problem with this rhetoric is that when it succeeds - as it will someday - and the poor displaced innocents are given the West Bank and most of everything else they demand except right of return to the pre '48 borders, the conflict still won't end. You know it and so do most who support the Palestinians. At that point it will become apparent who wants justice for the oppressed and who really just want the destruction of the Jewish state. Either way, the region is going to burn before the Jews are dispersed again. Deal with it.

[SHaYap]

The greatest problem with this rhetoric is that when it succeeds - as it will someday - and the poor displaced innocents are given the West Bank and most of everything else they demand except right of return to the pre '48 borders, the conflict still won't end. You know it and so do most who support the Palestinians. At that point it will become apparent who wants justice for the oppressed and who really just want the destruction of the Jewish state. Either way, the region is going to burn before the Jews are dispersed again. Deal with it.

Sure sure ... anything else you'd like to add ?

Ain't sure why you are complaining truth be told, isn't that one of the preconditions where you will rejoice at the return of your deity ?

Oh ye of little faith ...

~

[+and-then]

Sure sure ... anything else you'd like to add ?

Ain't sure why you are complaining truth be told, isn't that one of the preconditions where you will rejoice at the return of your deity ?

Oh ye of little faith ...

~

Because those who truly believe in and love Christ also attempt to love their fellow man as best they are able. Your opinion of my ability in that regard is irrelevant to me but to answer your remark, no, I am not happy about what is coming either for Jew or Palestinian. Those prophecies were written by the Creator - who can see outside of time. For him it is as if these things already occurred and he is just reporting it to us. I notice you do not dispute the accuracy of my prediction. Just for the record, if the Palestinians continue with killing Israelis after they gain the West Bank, will you condemn them for it?

[Black Red Devil]

They will resist until they cannot do so further then they will probably accommodate the world and pull their settlers from the land. That will possibly cause a civil war.

Now it's my turn:

I assume that the land you speak of is all the land that was won in the '67 war. Is this correct?

A civil war between Jews?

Yes, 67 borders.

[SHaYap]

Because those who truly believe in and love Christ also attempt to love their fellow man as best they are able. Your opinion of my ability in that regard is irrelevant to me but to answer your remark, no, I am not happy about what is coming either for Jew or Palestinian.

attempt and as best they are able ???

I am not sure which Christ you truly believe and love but here you are attempting to slip that camel through the eye of the needle, you are fooling no one but yourself ~ and I am trying very very hard at keeping a straight face reading your claims here.

Sorry man ... its not like it was just yesterday that you started on your little personal crusade at forcing what you think and feel about the Pali-s as you so often times referred to Palestine with such vile offensive and venomous remarks, among many many other disparaging if not outright bigoted, best not repeated, for fear of offending JC's good name as a mark of respect if nothing else.

Those prophecies were written by the Creator - who can see outside of time. For him it is as if these things already occurred and he is just reporting it to us.

Good ... seems to me here you claim that you have the higher and greater authority than this so called Creator of yours, so would you mind telling HE that you mention to get a move on and get back here already ?

I'd like to have a word with Him

I notice you do not dispute the accuracy of my prediction.

Let's get things straight here ... is this YOUR prediction or is it your deity ? Or are you claiming to be both, one and the same ?

Just for the record, if the Palestinians continue with killing Israelis after they gain the West Bank, will you condemn them for it?

Just for the RECORD ~ here is MY testimonial ...

IF what you claims of what you say and profess of your deity is TRUE and WHAT you say is TRUTH then THERE will no more QUESTIONs of killing ... either of ISRAEL or PALESTINE

THIS deity of yours will return and set things RIGHT and we'll all be good little JC lovers and I'll die satisfied and CONTENT even if I die at the hands of your deity's little chosen darlings ~

praise the Lawd and all that ~

BUT if what you claim and say is FALSE and this deity that you claim to be true and that which you love and believe does not follow what you say to be TRUE ... then we'll know the TRUTH once and for all ...

you know ... walk across my swimming pool or change my water into wine and all that ~

or just make good a simple PROMISE of eternal paradise on EARTH in PEACE and LOVE and all that ~

Till then, and then ... I will continue to CONDEMN as I ever had ... in JUSTICE and EQUITABLE impartiality

How about it eh ? IF ever that comes to pass and in the event that what you say, however remote, is the TRUTH,

I already know what I'd sing to your deity then ...

~

~

Close your eyes and let Ol' Ravi Shankar's little flower soothe the turmoil in your disturbed soul ~

`

[+and-then]

attempt and as best they are able ???

I am not sure which Christ you truly believe and love but here you are attempting to slip that camel through the eye of the needle, you are fooling no one but yourself ~ and I am trying very very hard at keeping a straight face reading your claims here.

Sorry man ... its not like it was just yesterday that you started on your little personal crusade at forcing what you think and feel about the Pali-s as you so often times referred to Palestine with such vile offensive and venomous remarks, among many many other disparaging if not outright bigoted, best not repeated, for fear of offending JC's good name as a mark of respect if nothing else.

Good ... seems to me here you claim that you have the higher and greater authority than this so called Creator of yours, so would you mind telling HE that you mention to get a move on and get back here already ?

I'd like to have a word with Him

Let's get things straight here ... is this YOUR prediction or is it your deity ? Or are you claiming to be both, one and the same ?

Just for the RECORD ~ here is MY testimonial ...

IF what you claims of what you say and profess of your deity is TRUE and WHAT you say is TRUTH then THERE will no more QUESTIONs of killing ... either of ISRAEL or PALESTINE

THIS deity of yours will return and set things RIGHT and we'll all be good little JC lovers and I'll die satisfied and CONTENT even if I die at the hands of your deity's little chosen darlings ~

praise the Lawd and all that ~

BUT if what you claim and say is FALSE and this deity that you claim to be true and that which you love and believe does not follow what you say to be TRUE ... then we'll know the TRUTH once and for all ...

you know ... walk across my swimming pool or change my water into wine and all that ~

or just make good a simple PROMISE of eternal paradise on EARTH in PEACE and LOVE and all that ~

Till then, and then ... I will continue to CONDEMN as I ever had ... in JUSTICE and EQUITABLE impartiality

How about it eh ? IF ever that comes to pass and in the event that what you say, however remote, is the TRUTH,

I already know what I'd sing to your deity then ...

~

~

Close your eyes and let Ol' Ravi Shankar's little flower soothe the turmoil in your disturbed soul ~

`

I'm at complete peace TE. And no, I didn't claim to be a prophet. It's absolutely possible I've misunderstood. If you are about peace and justice then I expect that when Israel finds itself on the ropes, when armies are forming to over run the state then you will be as angry about that as you are about the mistreatment of Palestinians today but we both know that won't be the case. You - and others here - will be drooling over the prospect. No innocent civilians in THAT war, eh? I really am not offended by people hating Israel - or Jews for that matter- everyone has a right to think and feel as they please. What offends me is the hypocrisy and lies. THIS prediction IS MINE: In the coming years (months?) world opinion is going to solidify against Israel and crushing sanctions will begin. Israel will be pushed by these circumstances to give the Palestinians almost everything they are demanding and whether the Palestinian leaders agree to concessions or not, no real concessions will ever materialize for them. Shortly after this agreement is enacted and Israel moves out of the WB, the rockets will begin falling and the knife attacks, shootings and car attacks will be back on in their full glory. And every person here who has steadfastly blamed Israel won't say a word in complaint of injustice. They won't because they are cowards and haters. And don't imagine that just because you carelessly speak of "JC" today that you will always do so. You have a few things to say to him? I suspect that when that day comes it will be he that is speaking my friend. And you - and everyone else - will be listening from bent knee.

[+Hammerclaw]

You'd think Jews would have learned by now, every time someone puts a fence around them, bad things happen.

[+and-then]

You'd think Jews would have learned by now, every time someone puts a fence around them, bad things happen.

Indeed. The difference today is that they have no intention of walking quietly to the gas chambers. The thing I find the most surreal about the situation is the denial of reality that the Israel haters are engaged in. They really seem to believe that Israel will magically surrender some day and allow themselves to be dispersed again - voluntarily.

[+Hammerclaw]

Indeed. The difference today is that they have no intention of walking quietly to the gas chambers. The thing I find the most surreal about the situation is the denial of reality that the Israel haters are engaged in. They really seem to believe that Israel will magically surrender some day and allow themselves to be dispersed again - voluntarily.

I don't hate Jews, I have a historical understanding of the Zionist movement that led to the foundation of the Jewish State. The worst thing the Zionists did to compromise their position in the Middle East was to give up Sinai. It's one, I fear, they may never recover from.

[SHaYap]

I'm at complete peace TE. And no, I didn't claim to be a prophet. It's absolutely possible I've misunderstood. If you are about peace and justice then I expect that when Israel finds itself on the ropes, when armies are forming to over run the state then you will be as angry about that as you are about the mistreatment of Palestinians today but we both know that won't be the case. You - and others here - will be drooling over the prospect. No innocent civilians in THAT war, eh? I really am not offended by people hating Israel - or Jews for that matter- everyone has a right to think and feel as they please. What offends me is the hypocrisy and lies. THIS prediction IS MINE: In the coming years (months?) world opinion is going to solidify against Israel and crushing sanctions will begin. Israel will be pushed by these circumstances to give the Palestinians almost everything they are demanding and whether the Palestinian leaders agree to concessions or not, no real concessions will ever materialize for them. Shortly after this agreement is enacted and Israel moves out of the WB, the rockets will begin falling and the knife attacks, shootings and car attacks will be back on in their full glory. And every person here who has steadfastly blamed Israel won't say a word in complaint of injustice. They won't because they are cowards and haters. And don't imagine that just because you carelessly speak of "JC" today that you will always do so. You have a few things to say to him? I suspect that when that day comes it will be he that is speaking my friend. And you - and everyone else - will be listening from bent knee.

Whoa nelly ... the only thing missing there is the fire and brimstone ...

Such foolishness ...

22:7 And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him? 22:8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.

(King James Bible, 3 Kings)

~

2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(King James Bible, Acts)

~

15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

(King James Bible, Matthew)

~

Look in the mirror, see your reflection ... you think too highly of yourself ...

And no , JC will not return just to save yourself from the hypocrisy that you bury yourself in ~ nor Bibi from his defilement of humanity ~

If JC is ever to return at all , it is not to fulfill false prophesies ... most of all yours ... Israel may drag the world down to further destruction, maybe even inevitable but I DARE them to even try ... I DARE them to flick the first switch and throw the world into a Nuclear Hell ... then we'll see who is going to be pleading on bent knee.

It sure as hell won't be me, JC or no JC ... if there is anything that will condemn the Israelis for eternity is for Bibi to pull this stunt ... the world is now saying TRY IT.

WE DARE YOU ... Tetelestai

~ edit : missing link

Edited March 16, 2016 by third_eye

[Black Red Devil]

And every person here who has steadfastly blamed Israel won't say a word in complaint of injustice. They won't because they are cowards and haters. And don't imagine that just because you carelessly speak of "JC" today that you will always do so. You have a few things to say to him? I suspect that when that day comes it will be he that is speaking my friend. And you - and everyone else - will be listening from bent knee.

Way to go buddy! Haters and cowards huh?! Your affliction with Zionism and religious prophecies is starting to penetrate into your psychosis. May I suggest you take a few chill pills mate and keep your anger for when the time of the apocalypse arrives. That's when you can prove to JC what a true hero you are by flying yourself to the Middle east and throwing your body and soul in sacrifice against the enemies of Eretz Yisrael. I'm sure JC will be totally elated when he welcomes you at the pearly gates.

[Black Red Devil]

I don't hate Jews, I have a historical understanding of the Zionist movement that led to the foundation of the Jewish State. The worst thing the Zionists did to compromise their position in the Middle East was to give up Sinai. It's one, I fear, they may never recover from.

LOL

[+and-then]

Way to go buddy! Haters and cowards huh?! Your affliction with Zionism and religious prophecies is starting to penetrate into your psychosis. May I suggest you take a few chill pills mate and keep your anger for when the time of the apocalypse arrives. That's when you can prove to JC what a true hero you are by flying yourself to the Middle east and throwing your body and soul in sacrifice against the enemies of Eretz Yisrael. I'm sure JC will be totally elated when he welcomes you at the pearly gates.

So when the Palestinians get most of what they want and still continue killing Israelis, you will complain against them? Really? Anyone who is actually concerned with justice would. We'll see when the time comes I guess.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I don't hate Jews, I just can't eat a whole one.

I hear you man.

[RavenHawk]

Reasonable people don't usually occupy land that belongs to others, nor oppresses and restricts them.

You mean like my ancestors did to native North Americans and yours did did to native Australians?

Considering that is the way of the world, sounds reasonable to me. Again and many times over, If this were not the norm, none of us would be who we are today. In each one of us are the genes of conquered peoples that have been absorbed by the stronger cultures. That is the story of life on this planet. It’s just rare to actually see history in action during current times. We’ve seen the collapse of the Soviet Union. We saw the breakup of the Balkans. We’ve seen a number of nations gain independence from British rule. We saw the changing of borders After WWII. And we’d see more if we go back further in time, but we who live in current times don’t realize the implications of these things that happen. I’m sure I’ve missed others that had occurred in the 2nd half of the 20th Century. The DMZs of Korea and Vietnam.

And why do you continue to say the Palestinians own the land? They don’t and never did. Granted, there are a few exceptions but the vast majority do not have legitimate deed to this land. And that many can trace family ties going back hundreds of years to the Ottoman Empire, does not automatically mean that they have any right to the land. They never did when it was Ottoman land so why should it be any different. They never wanted to properly register the land and pay taxes on it. The general consensus was to mooch off the state. Two cultures of ownership (British, Israeli) have existed since then? The Palestinian certainly had a path to ownership but they decided against it. They decided to roll the dice and they lost. There is no reset button.

I think the Israelis have grown tired of the games and they have instituted a program that will eventually solve the problem as humanely as possible. Israel had adopted the Ottoman land laws of 1858, with the very same intention the Ottomans had and that was to clear up this notion of land ownership. It was never really implemented by the time WWI broke out. These land laws were just one source of motivation for the Fellahin to organize under TE Lawrence. What part of this do you not understand?

You start a war and lose the land that's just how things have always worked on planet earth. Before the USA occupied Mexico City in 1847 at the end of the Mexican/American war how much of the USA was labeled as Mexico? Seattle where I live was in Mexico, should we now give it back? Nope. So quit belly aching on behalf of the Palestinians, Nobody took they're land they, as the aggressors, lost it.

I was going to continue commenting using this quote but I think it is so good that it really doesn’t need any more. It supports what I’ve already written very well. Except to say that as aggressors, they wanted the land too and lost the gambit.

BRD: You have been corrected now. There should be no more of this ‘Israeli occupation’ of other’s land. That’s just not so. The non-Israeli portions of Palestine are unorganized territory. That is its official status since the British left. The Palestinian has had chance after chance for statehood and become a good neighbor and they never have and there is no indication that they ever will, so Israel is doing what it thinks is right to protect themselves. The world has basically washed its hands of the matter. Hopefully, in a few generations the problem will no longer exist. Can a President Trump make a difference? Who knows? But what he will do is present the best deal possible but it’ll be up to the Palestinians and my feeling is that they won’t take it. That’ll be the death nail to any Palestinian future in Palestine. After that Trump would probably support Israel fully. But by then the larger conflict will be boiling over. The Muslims will probably forget about the Palestinian issue.

Do you really think that the Palestinians really have any future here? Let’s say there’s some miracle and Israel is somehow destroyed. Can you even consider the outcome? The Jews would be all but slaughtered and those that survive would escape to other places around the world. Less than 5% would remain and subjugated as Dhimmis. Once the Palestinian revenge is extracted, what then? Do you think a greater Palestine would take hold? Whatever infrastructure that had survived will deteriorate. Lebanon and Jordon would push their Palestinian refugees into the territory, even those that actually belong in these other nations. Then it’ll just be a waiting game. Blood feuds will break out. Hezbollah will take on Hamas for control of the Acre/Haifa area. Depending on the outcome of the Syrian civil war, ISIS, Syria, or a new nation-state with the military already staged, will probably move in to take the Golan Heights, Galilee, and most of the Jezreel Valley. Jordan not wanting to be out flanked by the neighbor to the north will regain the West bank. And Egypt not wanting to be left out will take Gaza and a good portion of the Negev. A Palestinian future will be dead. But this is highly unlikely to happen. The more likely scenario will be that Iran will train nukes at Israel which will also include the Palestinians and many of the Sunni neighbors as well. Israel could cement its future with the Sunni world to stand with them against Iran by letting the Palestinian culture fade away.