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Still Waters

Atheism predates Jesus by at least 500 years

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Liquid Gardens

Because it seems pretty obvious to all the atheists here, that the tale of the athiest in the foxhole is pure bunkum.

Indeed, and as I often repeat though I didn't come up with it, "there are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes.

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psyche101

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350x263px-LL-3d42280a_kev-hart-1.png

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Habitat

Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the

Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.”

:tu:

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PrisonerX

Really, combat isn't funny. You take your focus off what you are doing for a moment somebody might get killed and it might be you. Good bye, you got one day and you go on my ignore list. You are unworthy of my attention, so mote it be, as above, so below. ;)

Lose focus walking across the street and you may be killed. Humans war, and people die. That is the way of things. I have no special sympathy for soldiers. It is what it is. We all die fighting, in a manner of speaking.

As for "as above, so below"...I don't believe that is an atheist's saying. But never mind that. Ignore away.

Edited by PrisonerX
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Horta

Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the

Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.”

:tu:

No pillows in those days? He also said (supposedly) "it is not what goes into someone's mouth, but what comes out of it, that defiles them". Though they deffinately didn't have keyboards in those days so we have to make an assumption that same thing goes lol.

A favourite jesus aphorism that one. Not only when countering the (usually) cherry picked religious quasi philosophy of believers, but especially useful when talking to food Nazis. :)

I do know of at least one person who made a deal with god during a WW2 battle such was the fear and terror, and resultantly became a pastor. A harrowing story really. Though he wasn't really an atheist as such, to begin with. Understand what you're getting at here prisonerx, but it is such a broad generalisation that it is rightly considered a myth.

Edited by Horta
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Habitat

He also said (supposedly) "it is not what goes into someone's mouth, but what comes out of it, that defiles them".

A favourite jesus aphorism that one. Especially useful when talking to food Nazis.

It is one that I have pondered, but there was no KFC around then !

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Mr Walker

No pillows in those days? He also said (supposedly) "it is not what goes into someone's mouth, but what comes out of it, that defiles them". Though they deffinately didn't have keyboards in those days lol.

A favourite jesus aphorism that one. Not only when countering the (usually) cherry picked religious quasi philosophy of believers, but especially useful when talking to food Nazis. :)

I do know of at least one person who made a deal with god during a WW2 battle, and resultantly became a pastor. Though he wasn't really an atheist as such, to begin with. I understand what your saying here prisonerx, but it seems like a myth.

The context here was about unclean foods/ These foods were unclean because they were dangerous or unhealthy if eaten on a regular basis.

However jesus pointed out that a loving person can do more harm by refusing to eat food put in front of them, than by eating it.

The dietary laws and rules remain and it is best to obey them for our healths sake,(according to my cardiologists and dieticians) but must be obeyed via love. We can hurt another more by refusing to eat the food they have prepared than we hurt ourselves by eating one meal of pork or sea food etc.

On the other hand we have a reasonable grounds to refuse foods or beverages which could do us immediate harm.

Again, the context was about disciple ship and winning people to christ /god, via love versus law.

A gentile was unlikely to be won over by someone who refused to eat at his table, citing religious grounds, and if you sat down to break bread with him, you established a relationship where your words might win him over. .

If i get an opportunity I tell a host I don't eat certain foods by choice, and indeed would prefer vegetarian food, but if i don't have such an opportunity and any food is put on my table i clean up my plate without a qualm. I love a lot of foods which are quite harmful, such as pork and cray fish but avoid them for my healths sake. in poorer times, as children and teenagers, we ate anything we could get, and were glad of it. I struggled with tripe, learned to eat kidneys and livers,without feeling ill, almost came to enjoy crumbed brain (sheep's) and came to love kangaroo tail and lamb's tail pies.

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Horta
]Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them [/i]

Could be a whole lotta that other context, the one that has jesus as a sage, being overlooked here.

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truthseeker68

Athiesm is NOT a Religion first of all....So if this Moron from Cambridge really had a brain....He would not have said "Athiesm is one of the oldest Religion's

Secondly...before the so called Mesiah's, Jesus and/or Muhammad and/or whomever else...ever existed there were MANY so called God's....and the whole idea of Monothiesm came about because everyone thought that the God they worshipped could beat up the other guy's God. Religion is nothing more than simple Childish School Yard BS....My Dad can beat up your Dad...My Mom is prettier than your Mom...I don't understand why anyone with any intelligence would actually believe ANY Religious nonsense..???

You don't need a Book to tell you how to be a good person and do right in your life. Religion is simply a Story told to a bunch of idiot's in the past who didn't know any better...and then they told all the other idiot's about it...and they told 2 idiot's and they told 2 idiot's...and so on and so on....until all the idiot's decidied to call it a Religion....and Kill anyone who opposed...so more people who wanted to actually LIVE...said...OK...Sure...we will worship your God...whatever....just stop killing people. This perpetuated until more modern times...and then even the Religious folk's said....Well....we wanna be able to do "these thing's"...and the other folk's said...NO..no..no...you can not....so they said well...screw you...we are now known as (Insert Relgiion here)...and the other people said...well we want our own VERSION of this Religion as well....and NOW we come to Modern Day...and look at the Frickin mess we have with Religion now....SHAME...Shame...shame...!!!!

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psyche101

Don't hold back man!! What are you trying to say????

 

JK

 

Well, I like this Truthseeker better than the other one.... :D

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Stubbly_Dooright
On 5/1/2016 at 5:08 PM, XenoFish said:
Quote
On 5/1/2016 at 4:57 PM, PrisonerX said:

And despite all of that, in all of human history, there still has yet to have been one in a foxhole.

You don't know that for certain? My grandfather was in WW2, told me "No one had time to pray." Sadly the most inspiration person in my life died before the 21 century.

My father was drafted and fought in WW2, and was a prisoner of war in a German POW camp. I strongly believe he died an Atheist. Based on conversations and experiences I have had with him. 

Edit:  I want to take note my redundancy in posting. Because of the lack of time to be here, cause of job and other things, and the religion dieing thread, I haven't been to this one in ages. 

So, sorry. :( 

Edited by Stubbly_Dooright
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Stubbly_Dooright
On 5/8/2016 at 2:41 PM, PrisonerX said:

Lmao at these responses! "But my grandfather said..." "But my father said...".

Yea?? Well how about this, my father AND grandfather said that your fathers/grandfathers are lying through their teeth. Hah!

This site, sometimes, I swear. Too funny.

It was not what my father said, it was significant of a person that he was, that I know he was an Atheist. What he did say, was his memories and stories of his time in the army during WW2 and when he was a POW camp. Those stories of his time there, were the most talked about and the most remembered. Not one, did he have an epiphany of religion. 

But, I don't think I like the idea of you calling my father a liar. That p***es me off to no end. If you had met my dad, you would think differently. Of course, there is no future in meeting him, since he passed in 2013. Why don't you prove all of our fathers and grandfathers lied. 

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Podo
17 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

It was not what my father said, it was significant of a person that he was, that I know he was an Atheist. What he did say, was his memories and stories of his time in the army during WW2 and when he was a POW camp. Those stories of his time there, were the most talked about and the most remembered. Not one, did he have an epiphany of religion. 

But, I don't think I like the idea of you calling my father a liar. That p***es me off to no end. If you had met my dad, you would think differently. Of course, there is no future in meeting him, since he passed in 2013. Why don't you prove all of our fathers and grandfathers lied. 

While I don't like the delivery, I actually think that PrisonerX has a point. Allow me to explain before executing me.

I think the adage of "there are no atheists in foxholes" is garbage. I'm sure some of them would appeal to some deity, but to say that all of them do is just silly. Now, that being said, I don't think that the words of a soldier are necessarily ironclad. I'm not saying that your grandfather lied, but to say that no soldier has ever lied about [X] is also silly. The word of your grandfather is worth about as much as the word of anyone else's, since all anecdotes are created with an equal amount of salt grains. The analogy of "my grandfather says your grandfather is a liar" is absurd, however, since telling a story about life in a foxhole is entirely different than baselessly declaring that another person is a liar.

I dunno. I just don't think it's a black and white issue.

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Stubbly_Dooright
2 minutes ago, Podo said:

While I don't like the delivery, I actually think that PrisonerX has a point. Allow me to explain before executing me.

I think the adage of "there are no atheists in foxholes" is garbage. I'm sure some of them would appeal to some deity, but to say that all of them do is just silly. Now, that being said, I don't think that the words of a soldier are necessarily ironclad. I'm not saying that your grandfather lied, but to say that no soldier has ever lied about [X] is also silly. The word of your grandfather is worth about as much as the word of anyone else's, since all anecdotes are created with an equal amount of salt grains. The analogy of "my grandfather says your grandfather is a liar" is absurd, however, since telling a story about life in a foxhole is entirely different than baselessly declaring that another person is a liar.

I dunno. I just don't think it's a black and white issue.

I have great respect for you and your posts, so I can see to which you are saying. I would never execute you. ;) 

The thing is, I see and agree with your points that it's not all black and white, and that all soldiers in foxholes are liars or are telling the truth. But, I get the feeling, that those of us posters that pointed out what our grandfathers and fathers were ( and it's my father, Podo ;) not my grandfather. I forgot what my mother's dad did, but my dad's father was in the forestry job. ) with the same thought of being Atheists and talking about being Atheists, or were and fought in the war, as coming across as being liars. It's not believing that Atheists turned into Believers or Believers turning into Atheists and such, it seems that it's about pointing out there are indeed, or were indeed, Atheists in foxholes and there's no way of going around that fact. I think one cannot say, that one particular group, everyone within it ( in this case Atheists who fought in WW2 ) are all liars, because one cannot imagine there could be such a group or person. 

And I'm with GmG, just having the lack of respect for the soldier and what they do, go through, and sacrifice is to me, not considerate and worthy. I also am married to a retired Air Force MS, and he has done a lot while he was in. So has my cousin and my brother in law. And I like to mention my late brother as well, who died of Pancreatic Cancer six years ago. So, I have an experienced look at respecting the soldier most of the time. :yes: 

 

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Podo
8 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I have great respect for you and your posts, so I can see to which you are saying. I would never execute you. ;) 

The thing is, I see and agree with your points that it's not all black and white, and that all soldiers in foxholes are liars or are telling the truth. But, I get the feeling, that those of us posters that pointed out what our grandfathers and fathers were ( and it's my father, Podo ;) not my grandfather. I forgot what my mother's dad did, but my dad's father was in the forestry job. ) with the same thought of being Atheists and talking about being Atheists, or were and fought in the war, as coming across as being liars. It's not believing that Atheists turned into Believers or Believers turning into Atheists and such, it seems that it's about pointing out there are indeed, or were indeed, Atheists in foxholes and there's no way of going around that fact. I think one cannot say, that one particular group, everyone within it ( in this case Atheists who fought in WW2 ) are all liars, because one cannot imagine there could be such a group or person. 

And I'm with GmG, just having the lack of respect for the soldier and what they do, go through, and sacrifice is to me, not considerate and worthy. I also am married to a retired Air Force MS, and he has done a lot while he was in. So has my cousin and my brother in law. And I like to mention my late brother as well, who died of Pancreatic Cancer six years ago. So, I have an experienced look at respecting the soldier most of the time. :yes: 

 

I think respect of the soldier is a very contingent thing, based on experiences. I don't respect soldiers any more than any other profession, for example. Many within my family have been military, and each and every one of them were angry, abusive sacks of crap who did more harm than good to everyone around them. It took me a lot of years to realize that all military personnel were not like them, and I spent many years of my life looking down at military members as uneducated losers who couldn't get a real job. I don't think that anymore, but I also don't elevate them above any other skilled individual.

One thing I'm staunch about, however, is that being a soldier does not convey any inherent truthfullness or trustability. For example, if a soldier and a baker both claim to have seen a sasquatch, I won't hold the soldier's word in any higher regard just because he's a soldier. Most people will do so, however, which doesn't make much sense to me.

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, Podo said:

I think respect of the soldier is a very contingent thing, based on experiences. I don't respect soldiers any more than any other profession, for example. Many within my family have been military, and each and every one of them were angry, abusive sacks of crap who did more harm than good to everyone around them. It took me a lot of years to realize that all military personnel were not like them, and I spent many years of my life looking down at military members as uneducated losers who couldn't get a real job. I don't think that anymore, but I also don't elevate them above any other skilled individual.

One thing I'm staunch about, however, is that being a soldier does not convey any inherent truthfullness or trustability. For example, if a soldier and a baker both claim to have seen a sasquatch, I won't hold the soldier's word in any higher regard just because he's a soldier. Most people will do so, however, which doesn't make much sense to me.

Oh, I agree, and that's like that for anyone in anything. I have seen liars ( I could tell ) and honest people in my experiences with working with customers from all walks of life. And I have seen my share of the type you speak of while in the places my husband has been stations. And I have seen the honest ones too. 

I feel bad that you have had those experiences with such, and I do feel some of the times, I feel it could be other reasons for it too, PTSD and such. And that also, they were not just that honorable too. Not any of those in my family who did serve had those characteristics, I guess that's knocking on wood for that. And for the life of me, despite my father should have had very negative reactions and attitudes, he really didn't from my perspective. And it always struck me as unusual that when he regaled us with his POW stories, there was a hint of nostalgia almost, or that he took his experiences for just experiences that were, no matter the trauma behind them. My last memory of him, and I remember making it more of a point to really take in his last story of him during his POW days, but of him telling me one of his POW story. This was just as I dropped him off at the hospital. He would end up dieing a week later. :( 

The thing is, yes, not all soldiers are honest and some are liars, I;m just getting that those who have had stories of staying an Atheist in a foxhole, is considered liars. All of them, because they were proclaimed Atheists despite it all. That's my question, are all foxhole Atheists liars? 

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Podo
33 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Oh, I agree, and that's like that for anyone in anything. I have seen liars ( I could tell ) and honest people in my experiences with working with customers from all walks of life. And I have seen my share of the type you speak of while in the places my husband has been stations. And I have seen the honest ones too. 

I feel bad that you have had those experiences with such, and I do feel some of the times, I feel it could be other reasons for it too, PTSD and such. And that also, they were not just that honorable too. Not any of those in my family who did serve had those characteristics, I guess that's knocking on wood for that. And for the life of me, despite my father should have had very negative reactions and attitudes, he really didn't from my perspective. And it always struck me as unusual that when he regaled us with his POW stories, there was a hint of nostalgia almost, or that he took his experiences for just experiences that were, no matter the trauma behind them. My last memory of him, and I remember making it more of a point to really take in his last story of him during his POW days, but of him telling me one of his POW story. This was just as I dropped him off at the hospital. He would end up dieing a week later. :( 

The thing is, yes, not all soldiers are honest and some are liars, I;m just getting that those who have had stories of staying an Atheist in a foxhole, is considered liars. All of them, because they were proclaimed Atheists despite it all. That's my question, are all foxhole Atheists liars? 

Absolutely not. I would imagine that the vast majority are telling the truth.

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