EU referendum: 23 June date set for UK vote

[LV-426]

I have even heard it said that this nis exactly the objective from one of our members here, cut yourself off from the big bad world and the trouble it brings to your door - and I daresay that is what motivates many Brexiters. But we all know it doesn't work out that way - you just become victim to more bullies.

Br Cornelius

Bully us how?

It sounds like the only bullying going on right now is nations calling themselves our friends and allies threatening us with financial ruin if we don't dance to their tune, which is a much more likely candidate for motivating the out campaigners.

This isn't about becoming the next North Korea. It's about maintaining good relations with the world, while controlling our own piece of it.

All the placate the Little Englanders. i think not.

Honestly, one of the regular criticisms aimed at Brexit campaigners is the notion that they are somehow xenophobic. It seems to me that it's often the case that it is the exact opposite. This derision for Britain, particularly England, and its colonial past is thinly veiled at best sometimes.

[Black Monk]

EXCLUSIVE: U.S. Office of Trade Official Contradicts Obama

Breitbart London can reveal exclusively an e-mail from the body that implements America’s free trade deals with the world: the Office of International Trade, which states:

“This is the first time I’ve heard of the assertion that the UK is too small to have an FTA with the US… clearly the UK is not too small to have an FTA with the US if we have one with Oman.”

The official stressed: “Do be advised that FTAs are negotiated by the Executive Branch of the U.S., specifically by the United States Trade Representative (USTR) at the behest of the President”.

In October last year, Obama’s trade spokesman Michael Froman said: “I think it’s absolutely clear that Britain has a greater voice at the trade table being part of the EU, being part of a larger economic entity… We’re not particularly in the market for FTAs with individual countries. We’re building platforms … that other countries can join over time.”

It was later revealed that Mr. Froman had himself worked for the European Commission.

EXCLUSIVE – Sen. Cruz Slams Obama On Brexit: ‘Prez Should Make It An Opportunity To Strengthen Special Relationship’

http://www.breitbart...l-relationship/

Sen. Ted Cruz hit back, and in a statement to Breitbart London, the Republican candidate for president said: “President Obama’s comments today are typical of his administration, which began by returning the bust of Winston Churchill from the Oval Office.

“Rather than scolding our closest allies for even considering exercising their rights as a sovereign nation, the President of the United States should look for ways to make Brexit, if it happens, an opportunity to enhance and strengthen the special relationship between our two countries.”

Edited April 24, 2016 by Black Monk

[bee]

People have been picking up on the fact that Obama said the UK would be at "the back of the queue" for American trade deals if it left the EU, because Americans would tend to say "back of the line" rather than "back of the queue", so Mr Farage has pointed out that Obama is merely doing Cameron's bidding.

There were also a lot of angry listeners phoning in to Stephen Nolan on BBC Radio Five Live last night condemning Obama for getting ivolved in the EU referendum. The public seem angry by Obamaa doing this and this could come back to haunt the Remain camp. They may have made a grave mistake in inviting Obama over.

It could backfire...

And I didn't like the way Obama's interference and pro Remain message was interwoven with the Queen's birthday and photo opportunities with the super-cute Prince George -

Imagine Cameron's aids sitting around working out the referendum timetable and then going - in so many words--- oh my god, I know what could swing it --- the Obama's being all chummy with the Queen etc, photos with little George and in the middle of it the stern warning ---

The Queen keeps out of political decisions like the EU referendum but somehow Cameron and Obama has used her to strengthen the pro EU message, IMO ----

I suspect Her Maj would be in the Leave Camp if she was allowed to say --- didn't something get leaked about that a while back..?

.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Little Englander is not a racist term and doesn't designate the target as been racist either. It is a well understood term describing (pejoratively) a certain British demographic. It is entirely possible to love your country without becoming a Little Englander.

Br Cornelius

[Black Monk]

Little Englander is not a racist term and doesn't designate the target as been racist either.

No, it's a racist term. It's funny how you can be proud to be Irish or proud to be Scottish or proud to be Welsh but anyone who's proud to be English is instantly derided as a "Little Englander" - a term originally invented to describe those who were against the British Empire.

During the Scottish independence referendum, those Scots who wanted Scottish independence were "proud, patriotic Scots! Bravehearts!" But anyone in this EU in/out referendum campaign who supports British independence from the EU is derided as a "Little Englander." The hypocrisy is astounding.

Scottish independence from the UK = good Scottish patriots

British independencer from the EU - racist Little Englanders

[Guest Br Cornelius]

No, it's a racist term. It's funny how you can be proud to be Irish or proud to be Scottish or proud to be Welsh but anyone who's proud to be English is instantly derided as a "Little Englander" - a term originally invented to describe those who were against the British Empire.

During the Scottish independence referendum, those Scots who wanted Scottish independence were "proud, patriotic Scots! Bravehearts!" But anyone in this EU in/out referendum campaign who supports British independence from the EU is derided as a "Little Englander." The hypocrisy is astounding.

Scottish independence from the UK = good Scottish patriots

British independencer from the EU - racist Little Englanders

I am a white male English citizen by Birth and am more than happy to use the term Little Englander. It doesn't describe me and its not racist when I use it about my own fellow English citizens.

Br Cornelius

[LV-426]

Its no coincidence that most Brexiters are middle class, English and older conservatives.

Time to break the stereotype then.

I'm working class, come from a socialist background, and spent most of my life as a socialist myself until I saw just what modern day "socialism" actually is.

If Jeremy Corbyn has anything to do with it either, I won't be the last person with a political shift to the right.

[Jarocal]

I am sorry but I cannot acquiesce to the notion that protectionist policies will lead to anything but a depressed economy. You should also look into the way the CAP works and how one of its main planks is to keep marginal farmers and their dependent rural communities in a healthy and viable state. So the EU is the main protector of small welsh farmers in the face of global competition from the ranch scale farmers of Europe and the USA.

Br Cornelius

You forgot to mention Brazil in that agribusiness comment. Their exports of cereal grain and beef grows annually.

And why would a Brexit curb the UK's ability to stave off American imports there is no reason they cannot leave policies in place that shelter Welsh farmers the way you claim EU regs do. If anything it would expand the ability for the UK to subsidize select industries in the same manner the U.S. does with it's agriculture.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

You forgot to mention Brazil in that agribusiness comment. Their exports of cereal grain and beef grows annually.

And why would a Brexit curb the UK's ability to stave off American imports there is no reason they cannot leave policies in place that shelter Welsh farmers the way you claim EU regs do. If anything it would expand the ability for the UK to subsidize select industries in the same manner the U.S. does with it's agriculture.

Can you show any evidence that that is what a post Brexit Tory government would do. I think you will find that their policy is to introduce more market competition to the agricultural sector and that the EU is the main roadblock to their deregulation ambitions. The NZ model springs to mind as their inspiration.

Br Cornelius

[stevewinn]

I am a white male English citizen by Birth and am more than happy to use the term Little Englander. It doesn't describe me and its not racist when I use it about my own fellow English citizens.

Br Cornelius

whichever way your using the word in this EU debate, How exactly are we little Englanders when what we are proposing is to trade with the EU and the world, from outside of the Political Union. you should be calling us the Big Englanders the Globalists. - its you who is the little European Union'er happy to sit in a customs Union.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

whichever way your using the word in this EU debate, How exactly are we little Englanders when what we are proposing is to trade with the EU and the world, from outside of the Political Union. you should be calling us the Big Englanders the Globalists. - its you who is the little European Union'er happy to sit in a customs Union.

Its a state of mind Steve that you show in abundance.

Br Cornelius

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

Just for us Little Englanders

[Space Commander Travis]

Can you show any evidence that that is what a post Brexit Tory government would do. I think you will find that their policy is to introduce more market competition to the agricultural sector and that the EU is the main roadblock to their deregulation ambitions. The NZ model springs to mind as their inspiration.

Br Cornelius

I thought NZ had a quite successful agricultural sector, and you're saying that market competition is a bad thing?

[Stardrive]

The MSM is covering Obama's visit over there. I'll copy paste some of the comments from us ordinary yanks.

The article is titled: UK-US trade deal could take years - Obama

Hi BBC and MSN, we the American people would like to apologize to the UK and the rest of the world for our current inept president. Unfortunately he turned out to be the most fraudulent, corrupt, racist, narcissistic, and immature leader we have ever suffered under. In 8 months we will be rid of him and then we can begin to recover and rebuild. Signed, Steph the Honest Democrat.

Global trade benefits global traders and global shippers... always has always will. The world is changing it's views on living and trade. Sustainable local farming , manufacturing and trade systems must be promoted and developed.These massive trade deals are give away to giant corporates. This lame duck shouldn't be threatening our favorite trade nation and our only dependable ally. The British now see what Obama and liberalism really is. His sneery condescension speaks volumes.

"Tory Liam Fox said the US president's views were "irrelevant"." - so true, this is a United Kingdom issue. "It would be "a mistake" for any Western state to send ground troops into Syria" - more failed peace through negotiation. "Countries could not "pull up the drawbridge" when faced with the migration crisis" - more attempts to force countries to take refugee's even when it poses a significant threat.

as allies, we should support whatever the people decide to do, not threaten them with hardships. the world is not ours to conform.

This man can't get anything right. Where does he get off telling another country how to run their lives when he has wrecked this one. My advice would be to do exactly the opposite of what he says.

And Obama and his henchmen know what the world economy will be in ten years,Who knew that Obama would add 13 trillion dollars to our debt in seven years.

obama will be gone in a few months and his threats are hollow.

10 years for the UK, but let's give Iran every damn thing they ask for. Makes perfect sense.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

I thought NZ had a quite successful agricultural sector, and you're saying that market competition is a bad thing?

Removal of all subsidy is a sure fire way to clear the land of all small farmers - which is maybe the point.

Br Cornelius

[stevewinn]

[Space Commander Travis]

Removal of all subsidy is a sure fire way to clear the land of all small farmers - which is maybe the point.

Br Cornelius

The way you can twist logic to suit your dogma is quite remarkable. If subsidies are available to all (because it's fairer for everybody ), the giant corporate farms and meat producers (which can hardly be called 'farms') are going to rake in as much as they can, aren't they. Which will make them even more dominant and able to squash the little people, won't it. The obvious solution would be to make subsidies only available to small independent farmers. But that wouldn't be Harmonious, would it. And that wouldn't be fair. Edited April 24, 2016 by Otto von Pickelhaube

[Guest Br Cornelius]

The way you can twist logic to suit your dogma is quite remarkable. If subsidies are available to all (because it's fairer for everybody ), the giant corporate farms and meat producers (which can hardly be called 'farms') are going to rake in as much as they can, aren't they. Which will make them even more dominant and able to squash the little people, won't it. The obvious solution would be to make subsidies only available to small independent farmers. But that wouldn't be Harmonious, would it. And that wouldn't be fair.

I specifically pointed out that EU CAP subsidies are structured to keep small farmers on the land. You can structure subsides however you please for whatever outcome you want - but the EU favours small farmers as policy. Now removal of all subsides is a guarantee that small farmers who often have farm incomes before subsidies of less than €20K are not sufficient to survive on and so they will go out of business and their holdings will be absorbed into larger farms who have lower cost due to economies of scale. This will generally have bad outcomes for rural communities and ecology. So you make your choices and take the inevitable outcomes.

I have not twisted anything - but i have explained to you something of the philosophy of the CAP and why pulling subsidies ala the NZ model will lead directly to loss of small farms.

Br Cornelius

[stevewinn]

I specifically pointed out that EU CAP subsidies are structured to keep small farmers on the land. You can structure subsides however you please for whatever outcome you want - but the EU favours small farmers as policy. Now removal of all subsides is a guarantee that small farmers who often have farm incomes before subsidies of less than €20K are not sufficient to survive on and so they will go out of business and their holdings will be absorbed into larger farms who have lower cost due to economies of scale. This will generally have bad outcomes for rural communities and ecology. So you make your choices and take the inevitable outcomes.

I have not twisted anything - but i have explained to you something of the philosophy of the CAP and why pulling subsidies ala the NZ model will lead directly to loss of small farms.

Br Cornelius

To help smaller farmers and keep them on the land, what you mean is French farmers, keeping a unproductive sector viable by paying other farmers in the european countries to produce nothing. So France faces no competition from Africa or from inside the EU itself. - How did this happen, and why France?. Well in France there is a law if a French Farmer has two sons on his death the Farm is automatically split in two. if these two son's then have a son each of their own the farm is further split again, so that one farm is now split into four smaller ones you carry on that process down the generations and you end up with what France has today. a massive industry of ineffective farming backed by a powerful farmers Union, we all remember and know the French farmers strikes all coming out from their small holdings in force- So the only answer to quell them is subsidies by the EU dressed up to deceive the unaware public.

Moving on..

Nice little piece in the Sunday Times online today.

Plans drawn up for European superstate

Plans for a United States of Europe have been drawn up by leading EU politicians, undermining David Cameron’s claims that Britain will not be sucked into a European superstate.

A document signed last September in Rome by the speakers of the national parliaments in Germany, France, Italy and Luxembourg calls for the creation of a full blown “federal union of states”.

The paper says that “concrete proposals” to deepen EU integration will be drawn up at a meeting in Luxembourg next month, raising the prospect of a new row about powers leaching to Brussels ahead of the referendum on June

http://www.thetimes....state-djj5pvq32

European ministers have explicitly laid out their intentions to create a federal Unites States of Europe, directly contradicting the British Prime Minister, David Cameron’s claims that Britain will not be sucked into a European superstate should the people of Britain vote to remain within the European Union (EU).

Presenting his renegotiated deal on EU membership in February, Mr Cameron insisted: “Britain will be permanently out of ever closer union, never part of a European super-state.”

But the emergence of a declaration signed in Rome by European ministers five months previously to Mr Cameron’s announcement reveals that the intention on the continent is to press ahead with the creation of a federal Europe.

Not content with merely monetary union and free movement, the declaration, signed by the speakers of the national parliaments in Germany, France, Italy and Luxembourg states that they want to integrate a broad spectrum of policies. “It should include all matters pertaining to the European ideal — social and cultural affairs as well as foreign, security and defence policy,” the declaration states.

It adds: “We are convinced that new impetus must be given to European integration. We believe that more, not less, Europe is needed to respond to the challenges we face.

“The current moment offers an opportunity to move forward with European political integration, which could lead to a federal union of States.” The Commission has denied all knowledge of the declaration. A spokeswoman told the Sunday Times: “I am not aware of any such initiative. This is not something related to the commission.” But leader of the Commons, Chris Grayling, who has been sent the document, said: “This shows there are now serious plans for a political union, where those countries in the Eurozone move towards having a single government.”

He accepted Mr Cameron’s statement that Britain and Denmark would be exempt, but argues that in practice the arrangement would make very little difference.

“This new entity will still make our laws for us,” he said. “We will have very little say in what happens. We have to decide whether we want to be an independent country or whether we want to be caught up in what is heading fast towards being a United States of Europe.” The emergence of the document comes mere days after it was revealed that Germany and the Netherlands are already pressing ahead with plans to federalise the European armed forces by merging their own national forces. In doing so, they hope to create the nucleus of an EU Army which can be expanded. The Czech Republic has already entered talks on bringing her armed forces under German control. Germany has so far taken over at least two Dutch army units, and a Danish warship is now under joint control by the German and Dutch navies.

The pro-Brexit former Minister Iain Duncan-Smith, who last month resigned as Work and Pensions secretary in protest at the government’s plans to cut benefits, has accused Mr Cameron and his Chancellor George Osborne of lying to the British people over the EU Referendum. “What is being sold to the British people by the government at the moment is nothing short of a sham,” he said, adding: “I don’t think anybody arguing for ‘in’ now believes a word of what they’re saying, I just think that they have got themselves into a position where they have to now win this regardless, at all costs.”

http://www.breitbart...ates-of-europe/

Edited April 24, 2016 by stevewinn

[Space Commander Travis]

I specifically pointed out that EU CAP subsidies are structured to keep small farmers on the land. You can structure subsides however you please for whatever outcome you want - but the EU favours small farmers as policy. Now removal of all subsides is a guarantee that small farmers who often have farm incomes before subsidies of less than €20K are not sufficient to survive on and so they will go out of business and their holdings will be absorbed into larger farms who have lower cost due to economies of scale. This will generally have bad outcomes for rural communities and ecology. So you make your choices and take the inevitable outcomes.

I have not twisted anything - but i have explained to you something of the philosophy of the CAP and why pulling subsidies ala the NZ model will lead directly to loss of small farms.

Br Cornelius

You're the one that keeps talking about what would happen if all subsidies were removed. I'm saying that subsidies should only be paid to those that need them, which the mega farms don't (or wouldn't if they were at all efficient). That's what's unfair about the "same rule for all" approach.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Steve, the CAP policy benefits small farmers across the whole of Europe and even in the UK. You can question whether its is a good idea to keep the countryside populated with rural workers and whether it represents a sound policy - but please do not try to paint it as a sly tricked played by the French on the poor British agricultural sector.

Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

The Czech Republic has already entered talks on bringing her armed forces under German control.

That wouldn't be the first time. It happened before in 1938 as I recall. There was a piece of paper about it.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

You're the one that keeps talking about what would happen if all subsidies were removed. I'm saying that subsidies should only be paid to those that need them, which the mega farms don't (or wouldn't if they were at all efficient). That's what's unfair about the "same rule for all" approach.

Thats is a debatable point since the second plank of the CAP was to produce cheap food so that Europe would never face famine again. In order to achieve that the EU subsidizes all food by paying all farmers.

Br Cornelius

Edited April 24, 2016 by Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

You can question whether its is a good idea to keep the countryside populated with rural workers and whether it represents a sound policy - but please do not try to paint it as a sly tricked played by the French on the poor British agricultural sector.

Br Cornelius

I hardly think that's what Steve was questioning, he was questioning the inherent inefficiency of the system and the way that EU policy is designed to prop it up.

[Space Commander Travis]

Thats is a debatable point since the second plank of the CAP was to produce cheap food so that Europe would never face famine again. In order to achieve that the EU subsidizes all food by paying all farmers.

Br Cornelius

And so produces all these gluts that result in perfectly good produce being thrown away or milk poured down the drains. Surely even the most loyal admirers must admit that the current system is hopelessly inefficient, even if you steadfastly refuse to consider that it might be at all unfair.