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EU referendum: 23 June date set for UK vote


Still Waters

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I would like to know where they conduct the Opinion Polls and who they ask. Level pegging they say with 17% zombie brain dead who can't make up their minds.

If the Undecided think about what the future holds for Britain - when 77 million muslims from Turkey will be free to come to the UK / Europe if they want to...

That could concentrate the mind ...

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Have to agree there. I think Farage would decimate Cameron in a debate.

I agree as well -

The one silver lining with Boris is that if he gets the upper hand face-to-face with Cameron, it'll strengthen his position should we leave the EU, and probably be the last nail in Cameron's coffin. It's possibly the best we can hope for until the mindless masses realize they can vote outside the established parties.

Because Farage has been the subject of negative propaganda and government sponsored character assassination for so long -- even though he could wipe the floor with Cameron in debate --- it's probably best that a main stream established and popular politician like Boris is 'heading' the Leave Campaign...IMO

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Edited by bee
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A Sky News poll released this morning shows that 60% of British people think that Obama should keep out of the EU referendum campaign and 43% say his intervention - in which he is telling the British people that Britain should remain in the EU even though he'd never want America to join such an organisation - may force them to change their minds over which way they will vote.

The panicking government asking Obama to come over here to tell the British people to be good little boys and girls and to listen to Uncle Barack when he says we should vote to remain in the EU may backfire spectacularly.

Edited by Black Monk
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A Sky News poll released this morning shows that 60% of British people think that Obama should keep out of the EU referendum campaign and 43% say his intervention - in which he is telling the British people that Britain should remain in the EU even though he'd never want America to join such an organisation - may force them to change their minds over which way they will vote.

The panicking government asking Obama to come over here to tell the British people to be good little boys and girls and to listen to Uncle Barack when he says we should vote to remain in the EU may backfire spectacularly.

We respect the Americans right to independence from us but they don't respect our right to independence from the EU.

Obama is patronising.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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I saw the ITV news earlier and Obama is doing his bit for Project Fear ---- in so many words actually threatening the UK that if it leaves the EU we will be at the back of the queue when it comes to trade with the US --- what a cheek - and probably also a lie -

and anyway the Obama Administration will be over quite soon - so much for the special relationship - that according to Obama will be damaged by being an independent nation outside the dictates of the EU --

I listened to the Dave/Barak speech on Youtube and one of the things that Obama was pushing was that 'Britain is best when helping to lead a strong Europe'

say again..?

does he actually understand what's going on and thinks that we have any real influence...

did Dave tell him we did...?..... (during the speeches bother Cameron and Obama used first names for each other which kind of felt wrong and a bit sickening the way they were doing it - it's ok to be informal in an informal situation but this was a formal situation -)

Then I watched this video...perhaps Obama should watch it too, if he thinks Cameron and Britain has any real influence...

oh and earlier I was having a chat with one of my neighbours - the subject of the referendum came up so I said....I'm voting to leave and she said so were her and her husband and she thought most people she knew were thinking the same way... :)

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Barack Obama says Brexit would leave UK at the 'back of the queue' on trade

Easy to see why he's so unpopular in his own country. Let's ask the average U.S. citizen how they would feel about having their laws decided by other nations, and having their borders opened to countries such as Turkey.

I'm absolutely sick of these veiled threats around trade. How about we just tell any nation that wants to try and intimidate us to go and ***k themselves, and rebuild our own industries? Let's see how companies such as Ford, Renault, Peugeot, Volkswagen, Audi, BMW, etc. enjoy their huge dip in sales if we start focusing on British manufacturing again, or take the trade to companies such as Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. instead. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of nations out there who'll happily trade with a developed nation of 65 million people.

Honestly, I don't care how much we have to tighten our belts as a nation if that's the way it has to be. At least it'll be our nation, and we'll know who our friends actually are.

Edited by LV-426
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Barack Obama says Brexit would leave UK at the 'back of the queue' on trade

Easy to see why he's so unpopular in his own country. Let's ask the average U.S. citizen how they would feel about having their laws decided by other nations, and having their borders opened to countries such as Turkey.

I'm absolutely sick of these veiled threats around trade. How about we just tell any nation that wants to try and intimidate us to go and ***k themselves, and rebuild our own industries? Let's see how companies such as Ford, Renault, Peugeot, Volkswagen, Audi, BMW, etc. enjoy their huge dip in sales if we start focusing on British manufacturing again, or take the trade to companies such as Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. instead. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of nations out there who'll happily trade with a developed nation of 65 million people.

Honestly, I don't care how much we have to tighten our belts as a nation if that's the way it has to be. At least it'll be our nation, and we'll know who our friends actually are.

Obama is about to be consigned to History as one of the worst Presidents in recent times.His opinion means nothing....

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Obama is about to be consigned to History as one of the worst Presidents in recent times.His opinion means nothing....

I agree his opinion means little with regards to future trade deals with America, but his outspoken views will have an impact in the referendum.

Some might dismiss him outright, but there'll be those already voting out that have the same kind of angry reaction I just had. There be those voting to stay who'll hold him up like a beacon of truth to head their propaganda. The real question is what influence will he have over the undecided, which range from people intelligently trying to weigh things up from all angles, to people who buy anything they are told.

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Yeah, he's sticking his nose into something that isn't any of his beezwax. Do what you think is best, whatever that my be. I don't have an opinion on it, one way or the other, because I don't live there, and I don't have all the facts. And neither does he.

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A Sky News poll released this morning shows that 60% of British people think that Obama should keep out of the EU referendum campaign and 43% say his intervention - in which he is telling the British people that Britain should remain in the EU even though he'd never want America to join such an organisation - may force them to change their minds over which way they will vote.

The panicking government asking Obama to come over here to tell the British people to be good little boys and girls and to listen to Uncle Barack when he says we should vote to remain in the EU may backfire spectacularly.

Heck, we don't even listen to President Obama anymore. I can't think of anything he's done recently that anyone listened to him on.

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Barack Obama says Brexit would leave UK at the 'back of the queue' on trade

Easy to see why he's so unpopular in his own country. Let's ask the average U.S. citizen how they would feel about having their laws decided by other nations, and having their borders opened to countries such as Turkey.

I'm absolutely sick of these veiled threats around trade. How about we just tell any nation that wants to try and intimidate us to go and ***k themselves, and rebuild our own industries? Let's see how companies such as Ford, Renault, Peugeot, Volkswagen, Audi, BMW, etc. enjoy their huge dip in sales if we start focusing on British manufacturing again, or take the trade to companies such as Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. instead. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of nations out there who'll happily trade with a developed nation of 65 million people.

Honestly, I don't care how much we have to tighten our belts as a nation if that's the way it has to be. At least it'll be our nation, and we'll know who our friends actually are.

And Pres. O would rather have Turkey and S. Arabia as best buddies. That says all you need to know about the man.
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I agree his opinion means little with regards to future trade deals with America, but his outspoken views will have an impact in the referendum.

yes, it would boost the Just Say No campaign considerably.
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v

I'm absolutely sick of these veiled threats around trade. How about we just tell any nation that wants to try and intimidate us to go and ***k themselves, and rebuild our own industries? Let's see how companies such as Ford, Renault, Peugeot, Volkswagen, Audi, BMW, etc. enjoy their huge dip in sales if we start focusing on British manufacturing again, or take the trade to companies such as Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. instead. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of nations out there who'll happily trade with a developed nation of 65 million people.

Honestly, I don't care how much we have to tighten our belts as a nation if that's the way it has to be. At least it'll be our nation, and we'll know who our friends actually are.

Just going back to this point, where are you envisaging all these suddenly competitive British-owned car manufacturers to appear from? Aston Martin and Morgan are about the only British-owned ones, and they're not exactly mainstream. Are you envisaging that BMW would sell MINI (to whom? A reconstituted British Leyland?) and also Rolls-Royce, and VW would sell Bentley? And that people would stop buying BMWs, Audis, Mercs in favour of some as-yet hypothetical all-British luxury product? (Perhaps Jaguar, which is of course Indian-owned)? Like i said, i agree about the impact of what mr. O has said, but I really think we need to re realistic and not go off into some fantasy world where we take back everything into British ownership.
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What's their ace card...?

Their Ace card will be played a week or so before June 23rd just enough time to get the desired reaction, There will be a downing street "back room" private briefings on the Economic action our Government will take in the event we vote to leave, (even though nothing will change for two years anyway under the EU's article 50) The Government in this briefing will paint a bleak picture of life outside the EU, (no shock there) they'll be wise in choosing their words - not confirming anything but instead hinting, hinting such things as increasing interest rates, more Bank of England borrowing etc. creating just enough ripples to create that uncertainty, and because it will be a private briefing those being briefed will think they are privy to special or insider information and so automatically believe it without question, small titbits will then be leaked to grab the media headlines - all this aimed at those voters in the undecided bracket. the ones who can swing the vote one way or the other.

Its a bit like the Obama speech yesterday. two weeks ago on the BBC News they were telling us what Obama was "likely to say" on his visit, and here we are two weeks later and some of those quotes were exactly what Obama said yesterday. yet we were told two weeks earlier by the BBC, the line on a trade deal with the US is a perfect example, Obama was "likely to say" if we leave the EU we'd be at the "back of the queue" in any negotiation/US trade deal - and shock horror, here he is and his speech is full of these "quotes" - proving his speech was in part written by the British Government. the (EU segment) - put it this way i didnt see his speech but knew what he was going to say, and all that happened yesterday was instead of hearing it from a BBC reporter two weeks ago we heard it from Obama himself.

And im not the only one, Downing street have had to release a press statement: stating the speech was entirely the Presidents. yeah right, look how well orchestrated it was, (remember referring to the EU only) Its important that the UK government continues with the perceived "special relationship" status. So Obama in his orchestrated speech starts off reminding us he's our friend. stating "as a 'friend' of Britain i have be 'honest' about the impact of a Brexit vote" - So much of a good friend that if we the British people vote to leave through direct democracy - the same process which the USA with UK support like dropping or gifting to the uncivilised world from a 10,000 thousand feet in the form of 1000lb bombs. -

So our good friend would leave us at the back of the "queue" well we'll remember that next time the whitehouse phones for support when they want adventures in far off sandy places, or at the UN. this special relationship is a load of crap and has been for sometime, - i know doubt it exists between the ordinary people but politically, not a chance and it hasn't for sometime.

If Obama likes the idea of the UK remaining the EU, well how about we swap places, let the USA take our place, how many Americans would love to have 60% of their laws made for them, the European court that supersedes US courts, you completely lose control of your borders. you can stop people, search their bag etc.. but if they hold a EU passport in they come, criminals and all. and you cant turn them back. take out your trash, if you dump to much garbage in your own landfill sites and its more than the stated amount under EU rules you pay a fine to the EU, thats how backward its become - and for all this you have to pay £19.2 Billion a year. - You lose your seat on the World Trade Organisation, because you are no longer trusted or have the ability to negotiate your own trade deals, the EU will do them on your behalf. and if its watered down or you dont like it tough. oh and your fishing grounds, that has to be handed over to the EU, so they can become a community resource for all members. Its ******* bonkers, and not one person in the conference put this to Obama. How many Americans would vote to join the EU? i know one person Questionmark off here. besides him who else?

Edited by stevewinn
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Ta for reply Steve....

re this bit..

So our good friend would leave us at the back of the "queue" well we'll remember that next time the whitehouse phones for support when they want adventures in far off sandy places, or at the UN. this special relationship is a load of crap and has been for sometime, - i know doubt it exists between the ordinary people but politically, not a chance and it hasn't for sometime.

I do wonder how much this whole thing with Obama stepping in to try and influence the EU referendum vote - how much it is to do with a personal favour for Cameron himself - who would be politically crushed by a Leave result -

Cameron did, after all play a big part in the destruction and destabilizing of Libya and the assassination of Gaddafi - (and that turned out well (sarcasm))

And he is also a mouthpiece for anti Russian propaganda --- at the beginning of his speech he managed to get in a reference to security risks and Russia - :rolleyes:

He is also very supportive of the US mission to destabilize and destroy the Assad regime and Syria --- willing to train and arm very dubious ''''rebel'''' groups -

So Obama owed him and has now payed up before his term of office is over... <_<

???

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Edited by bee
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Ta for reply Steve....

re this bit..

I do wonder how much this whole thing with Obama stepping in to try and influence the EU referendum vote - how much it is to do with a personal favour for Cameron himself - who would be politically crushed by a Leave result -

Cameron did, after all play a big part in the destruction and destabilizing of Libya and the assassination of Gaddafi - (and that turned out well (sarcasm))

And he is also a mouthpiece for anti Russian propaganda --- at the beginning of his speech he managed to get in a reference to security risks and Russia - :rolleyes:

He is also very supportive of the US mission to destabilize and destroy the Assad regime and Syria --- willing to train and arm very dubious ''''rebel'''' groups -

So Obama owed him and has now payed up before his term of office is over... <_<

???

.

People have been picking up on the fact that Obama said the UK would be at "the back of the queue" for American trade deals if it left the EU, because Americans would tend to say "back of the line" rather than "back of the queue", so Mr Farage has pointed out that Obama is merely doing Cameron's bidding.

There were also a lot of angry listeners phoning in to Stephen Nolan on BBC Radio Five Live last night condemning Obama for getting ivolved in the EU referendum. The public seem angry by Obamaa doing this and this could come back to haunt the Remain camp. They may have made a grave mistake in inviting Obama over.

Edited by Black Monk
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v Just going back to this point, where are you envisaging all these suddenly competitive British-owned car manufacturers to appear from? Aston Martin and Morgan are about the only British-owned ones, and they're not exactly mainstream. Are you envisaging that BMW would sell MINI (to whom? A reconstituted British Leyland?) and also Rolls-Royce, and VW would sell Bentley? And that people would stop buying BMWs, Audis, Mercs in favour of some as-yet hypothetical all-British luxury product? (Perhaps Jaguar, which is of course Indian-owned)? Like i said, i agree about the impact of what mr. O has said, but I really think we need to re realistic and not go off into some fantasy world where we take back everything into British ownership.

I'm not unrealistic, and yes, things aren't going to change overnight. It's just this defeatist attitude where people seem to expect Brits to stand around helplessly saying "Aww noes, what are we going to do!?" That isn't how this nation was built.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. In the short to medium term, France, Germany, etc. aren't the only car manufacturers out there. When one door shuts another one opens, and I'm sure there'll be many companies rubbing their hands at potential business opportunities if certain nations decide to cut off their nose to spite their face - sorry... seems to be metaphor day :blush:

Long term, why can't the British car industry be rebuilt? Pretty sure the British steel industry for one might hope for that day.

Outside of that, what about other options such as investing in public transport? We're not exactly a geographically large nation. It takes a couple of hours to get from where I am in NW England to London, and I believe they've just put forward plans for an even faster rail link. How about investing part of the fortune we pay to the EU into transport infrastructure?

What about the inevitable changes to transport in the future? Traditional cars are already being phased out as driverless cars hit the streets, some under names that aren't traditionally associated with motor manufacturing. Why not once again look to becoming innovaters, in the manner that once made Britain a leader in industry?

Anyhow, I'm in danger of heading into a patriotic rant, and it's not aimed at you Otto :lol: I just want to see Britain become "Great" Britain again, and for people to start looking at what we can do rather than what we can't, even if it means being ready for some hard graft.

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When the Survation polling company asked undecided EU referendum voters to rank a list of most convincing reasons that would persuade them to vote to stay in the EU, the line "because Barack Obama wants the UK to remain” came in – you guessed it – dead last.

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I'm not unrealistic, and yes, things aren't going to change overnight. It's just this defeatist attitude where people seem to expect Brits to stand around helplessly saying "Aww noes, what are we going to do!?" That isn't how this nation was built.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. In the short to medium term, France, Germany, etc. aren't the only car manufacturers out there. When one door shuts another one opens, and I'm sure there'll be many companies rubbing their hands at potential business opportunities if certain nations decide to cut off their nose to spite their face - sorry... seems to be metaphor day :blush:

Long term, why can't the British car industry be rebuilt? Pretty sure the British steel industry for one might hope for that day.

Outside of that, what about other options such as investing in public transport? We're not exactly a geographically large nation. It takes a couple of hours to get from where I am in NW England to London, and I believe they've just put forward plans for an even faster rail link. How about investing part of the fortune we pay to the EU into transport infrastructure?

What about the inevitable changes to transport in the future? Traditional cars are already being phased out as driverless cars hit the streets, some under names that aren't traditionally associated with motor manufacturing. Why not once again look to becoming innovaters, in the manner that once made Britain a leader in industry?

Anyhow, I'm in danger of heading into a patriotic rant, and it's not aimed at you Otto :lol: I just want to see Britain become "Great" Britain again, and for people to start looking at what we can do rather than what we can't, even if it means being ready for some hard graft.

I think breaking the fetters of EU regulations would regain Britian the Sovereignty to rebuild some of the markets currently dominated by import.

On the other hand, Obama's warning about "back of the que" is quite hollow when Amercan industry groups decide they want to remain in the British market. Any policy efforts to curb our exports to Britian will not be met kindly.

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I think breaking the fetters of EU regulations would regain Britian the Sovereignty to rebuild some of the markets currently dominated by import.

On the other hand, Obama's warning about "back of the que" is quite hollow when Amercan industry groups decide they want to remain in the British market. Any policy efforts to curb our exports to Britian will not be met kindly.

There will be no need to curb exports, all that is needed is that the EU slaps tariffs on British imports as it would do on any other non-EU member. That would make American companies seek direct contact to the EU instead of using the UK as stepping stone (as many do now because of the lack of a language barrier-- and Ireland will be very happy for the additional business).

The facts are that Britain would have to do with less after the Brexit, and that is something that has to be said clearly before, not after the vote. Now if Britons decide that they can do with less and are happy to discard some business for the sake of some independence that is up to them to decide.

That economically nothing would happen is one of the many Farage-fantasy-world statements that circulate around the Brexit.

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There will be no need to curb exports, all that is needed is that the EU slaps tariffs on British imports as it would do on any other non-EU member. That would make American companies seek direct contact to the EU instead of using the UK as stepping stone (as many do now because of the lack of a language barrier-- and Ireland will be very happy for the additional business).

The facts are that Britain would have to do with less after the Brexit, and that is something that has to be said clearly before, not after the vote. Now if Britons decide that they can do with less and are happy to discard some business for the sake of some independence that is up to them to decide.

That economically nothing would happen is one of the many Farage-fantasy-world statements that circulate around the Brexit.

There is no doubt that turbulence will occur in the British market. I think the "back of the que" is far overstated because American Companies are going to want to be in that market, coupled with the amount spent on lobbying/political donations where do you think the policy will end up?

The EU really can't do more than bluster about possible stiff tariffs because Asian and American Companies would be more than willing to grab that market share. Factor in the ~£20 billion Britian pays in that the other net contributors now have to cover for subsidizing the EU and outside of political grandstanding you will find that they understand their need to stay in a British market as well.

Edited by Jarocal
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There is no doubt that turbulence will occur in the British market. I think the "back of the que" is far overstated because American Companies are going to want to be in that market, coupled with the amount spent on lobbying/political donations where do you think the policy will end up?

The EU really can't do more than bluster about possible stiff tariffs because Asian and American Companies would be more than willing to grab that market share. Factor in the ~£20 billion Britian pays in that the other net contributors now have to cover for subsidizing the EU and outside of political grandstanding you will find that they understand their need to stay in a British market as well.

Factor in that most of those 20 billion go directly back to the British economy (66% as established with Ms Thatcher) and you will notice that while noticeable, nothing much is going to happen to the 116.5 billion of the EU budget (in fact, it would be less than the fiscal plus of Germany... who as always will happily pay if the EU is short of money). The "exaggerated" British contributions is part of the "howling at high level" to have some leverage in the next budget negotiations.

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People have been picking up on the fact that Obama said the UK would be at "the back of the queue" for American trade deals if it left the EU, because Americans would tend to say "back of the line" rather than "back of the queue", so Mr Farage has pointed out that Obama is merely doing Cameron's bidding.

I noticed that also. We don't refer to a "line" (where you wait for your turn) as a "queue". Obama was handed a script to push the liberal agenda there. It seems there are trade-offs of good and bad, if you do, or if you don't. My Grandfather immigrated here from the island, and if he were here now, I'm sure he'd have some choice words about Obama sticking his nose somewhere it didn't belong.

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Guest Br Cornelius

Lets not forget that the whole British Rebate was negotiated because Thatcher blocked most of the regions from drawing down EU structural funding directly to rebuild the declining industrial North of the country. The rebate was a decided failure of policy as it undoubtedly left Britain a net loser when those lost grants and aid are factored in. Another loss dressed up as a win by the Tories.

Br Cornelius

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I'm not unrealistic, and yes, things aren't going to change overnight. It's just this defeatist attitude where people seem to expect Brits to stand around helplessly saying "Aww noes, what are we going to do!?" That isn't how this nation was built.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. In the short to medium term, France, Germany, etc. aren't the only car manufacturers out there. When one door shuts another one opens, and I'm sure there'll be many companies rubbing their hands at potential business opportunities if certain nations decide to cut off their nose to spite their face - sorry... seems to be metaphor day :blush:

Long term, why can't the British car industry be rebuilt? Pretty sure the British steel industry for one might hope for that day.

Outside of that, what about other options such as investing in public transport? We're not exactly a geographically large nation. It takes a couple of hours to get from where I am in NW England to London, and I believe they've just put forward plans for an even faster rail link. How about investing part of the fortune we pay to the EU into transport infrastructure?

What about the inevitable changes to transport in the future? Traditional cars are already being phased out as driverless cars hit the streets, some under names that aren't traditionally associated with motor manufacturing. Why not once again look to becoming innovaters, in the manner that once made Britain a leader in industry?

Anyhow, I'm in danger of heading into a patriotic rant, and it's not aimed at you Otto :lol: I just want to see Britain become "Great" Britain again, and for people to start looking at what we can do rather than what we can't, even if it means being ready for some hard graft.

It's clear you haven't received the Memo. It reads - If its British-run its crap, if its British made its crap and someone else can do it better, - on the other hand, if its Japanese "Yamazumi" or German "Lean" manufacturing its the Bee's Knee's.

We keep reading how disastrous economically it would be for Britain leaving the EU, Yet apparently if we leave everything is still going to be rosy inside the EU. So what the likes of Questionmark is trying to tell us is this, Britain the EU's biggest single market can leave and it wont affect the EU one iota. So the UK imports more from the EU than the USA does, But Questionmark states Germany will step in and take up the slack. How exactly is Germany going to firstly fund the UK's membership contribution of (£10 billion) or (£19.2 billion treasury balance sheet) combined with the market share of British imported goods and services we currently get from the EU, So all these goods and services we currently import from the EU who is going to buy them when we leave Germany?

The truth is the market or markets don't exist, there are no markets ready to take the UK's place. If there was these markets they would exist already and the EU's economy would be booming, employment at a all time high as the EU serves these markets But as it stands here in the real world the EU is bouncing along the bottom, high unemployment, a shrinking share of world output, (global) accounted for by the 28 current members of the EU has fallen from 30% to 17% from 1980 to 2015. the EU needs all the markets it can muster. But we are meant to believe we have no bargaining hand with the EU. - there single biggest market in the world UK 16% china for example is 8%. Japan 3% (these figures exclude UK % of trade to these countries)

the_eu_s_falling_share_of_world_gdp.png

Someone tell me what's the impact on the EU when we leave? how much will it cost the Eurozone and EU as a whole, how many jobs will be lost. After all we import more from the EU than they do from us.The fact is people, if we leave we both face an initial dip which will force a mutual interest deal. not a Canadian deal or Norwegian deal or Swiss deal but our own individual UK deal. after all this the EU will go on much the same and so will the UK. only difference is we will be outside the EU, have full control of our borders, once again British courts will rule the land, we'll have our seat back at the world trade organisation, we'll regain our fishing grounds and most importantly our sovereignty and maybe just maybe a bit of self pride in the process.

Edited by stevewinn
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