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EU referendum: 23 June date set for UK vote


Still Waters

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31 minutes ago, bee said:

.

 

Nigel Farage is always portrayed by his '''enemies''' (ie the status quo, establishment and their foot soldiers) as anti immigration - but this is a never ending ploy and misrepresentation because he is just speaking up against uncontrolled immigration - (like just about everyone else on both the Leave and Remain side in a less direct way)- but because he isn't afraid to voice and reflect the concerns of ''ordinary'' people who take the brunt of excessive migration when services are stretched etc - yes if more money was spent on services by governments this might not be such a problem - and if more time was allowed for assimilation it might not be such a problem but - just because Farage says what people are thinking instead of making them feel like nasty racists for even having genuine concerns --- HE gets demonized - 

Here he is reflecting what most people thought / think about the EU open door policy - 

 

 

Well, we'll see numbers on "free labor movement" in few years... I have sneaky suspicion, you'll be in surprise...

 

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8 hours ago, Torchwood said:

That is the exact question Ive been pondering now :

 

Not SHOULD Britain, leave the EU, but WILL it? 

And the answer is that it won't.

They have no intention of carrying out the nations will, regardless of the outcome.

No matter how you voted onThursday this should anger you all-  your vote is all you've got, and it counts for nothing!

I have to agree with you, all this stalling is probably to discuss and perfect a scenario which forces the UK to stay.

I don't believe they will use one reason but construct a string of reasons.  They will never hold another referendum.

The Tories will elect a pro-European PM, instead of discussing Brexit they will compile a list of reasons they believe it is impossible to leave. The next vote on Europe will be done in the commons and will be an overwhelming victory for Bremain.

The 23rd June will not be known as independence day, but the day democracy died.

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48 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

 

I have spoken to several people who voted to leave and are now having second thoughts, and why?  Well it's not due to convincing political or socio-economic arguments, it's due to the hysteria that is rife right now.  Not one of the people having doubts could give one solid reason for having second thoughts other than incoherent rambling about the economy and the media pointing towards another recession or being called xenophobic.

If you thought project fear would end with the result, well, here it is in full force.  I just hope those that genuinely believe in themselves and their country have the courage to see this through, and I quote the Late president JFK:  'We choose to do this, not because it is easy, but because it is hard'.    

.

Yes there is a big psychological operation going on at the moment - and Project Fear has morphed into Project Fear 'n Smear -

The idea (as I know you know but I'm just saying ) is that those who voted Leave must now be made to feel like they regret it and feel ashamed to be associated with xenophobia - this is mainly for the benefit of the rest of Europe in case they are thinking of having a referendum and leaving as well - and for the benefit of America targeting those who are thinking of voting for the maverick Trump - (IMO) - the Washington Post is getting well stuck in to the anti Brexit propaganda -

but Project Fear'n Smear is also to stop us looking like we're too happy about result.....

I think that the Leave Camp are being pretty gentle with the Remain Camp regarding the win -- there isn't much triumphalism as far as I know and now the Remain lot are emotionally all over the place - angry and upset - any celebrations are low key or non existent -

I actually think that it was the Remain Camp who were the most aggressive during the campaign --- and it was a bit rich when at times some of them went into rants about how full of hate Farage was --- but it was THEM who were spewing hate -- towards Farage ...:rolleyes:

If the vote had gone the other way there would  probably have been open celebration and street parties or similar - and no one would have cared about rubbing OUR noses in it --- this is just me guessing about that --- :) 

 

Edited by bee
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33 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

Well, we'll see numbers on "free labor movement" in few years... I have sneaky suspicion, you'll be in surprise...

 

 

:) - clearly it's not very clear how all this is going to pan out ---

it will all depend on how the government in power deals with the situation and the state of the job market, I suppose -
 

.

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21 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

The Germans have leaked a document this evening saying they are going to make Britain an offer of becoming an associate member of the EU with a free trade agreement.

Looks like we are going to get out and get what we want. And the Americans are sending their guy to mediate it being but in place.

Free trade....sounds good.

 

godfather_08_make_you_offer.jpg

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11 hours ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

So a smug commenter on twitter, reported in the guardian, the house paper of the metropolitan elite, would quite happy to see democracy completely ignored? Why doesn't that surprise me. 

You know, your constant downplaying of all the negative news (and there's LOTS of it) coming out of the Brexit debacle that people are pointing out, gives more of an impression of "having ones head stuck in the sand and is afraid of pulling it out to discover the disasters above the surface", rather than positivity which I'm assuming you're attempting to display.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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.

This is an interesting shortish video where the wider political implications of Brexit are discussed ---

when we toddled off to our little church halls and community centres on the 23rd who knew it was going to cause such a kerfuffle -- :rofl:

 

Published on Jun 26, 2016

The meaning of Brexit – the bigger picture. UK voters have rejected the EU and, importantly, they have rejected the political status quo. Today, sovereignty and national interest trump elite-driven internationalism.
CrossTalking with Alex Christoforou, Mark Sleboda, and Patrick Henningsen.

 

 

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@Black Red Devil

Sure man,with the good comes the bad but i believe the bad will only be short term...

This decision is less than a week old and was a major shock to the established order!

Besides anyting that upsets and po's George Soros only good can come of it ;)

Though i have read and studied up a bit more on this over recent days and wonder if a previous poster wasn't right...Will the UK's leaders even follow through with it?

This is really just getting started.

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12 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

@Black Red Devil

Sure man,with the good comes the bad but i believe the bad will only be short term...

This decision is less than a week old and was a major shock to the established order!

Besides anyting that upsets and po's George Soros only good can come of it ;)

Though i have read and studied up a bit more on this over recent days and wonder if a previous poster wasn't right...Will the UK's leaders even follow through with it?

This is really just getting started.

The executive will honour the Referendum Result. If the Referendum result where to be ignored there will be hell to pay in subsequent Elections in these lands. The Rise of UKIP would become complete.  

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1 minute ago, stevewinn said:

The executive will honour the Referendum Result. If the Referendum result where to be ignored there will be hell to pay in subsequent Elections in these lands. The Rise of UKIP would become complete.  

I hope like hell you are right Steve,i really do...

I'm just so used to seeing our leaders in the US say one thing and then do the opposite all the while our citizens go back to the polls a few years later after much bickering to vote once again for the same ruling slimeballs!

All in the name of voting for "the lesser of two evils",problem being those "two evils" are really one and the same!

Career,elitist,power hungry maniacs!

And don't dare bring up a third party in these lands,i'm a outsider and i like it... :D

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38 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

The executive will honour the Referendum Result. If the Referendum result where to be ignored there will be hell to pay in subsequent Elections in these lands. The Rise of UKIP would become complete.  

I doubt it. The only thing they could possibly fear is mass violent uprising (which is less likely than England winning the European Championship) . UKIP have lied through their teeth and Farage is probably finished; even if their huge share of the electorate forgives them it will still only result in 1 or two seats- The conservatives will lose support so we'll probably end up with a labour govt. I suppose Lib dem fortunes might actually recover!  

There is currently nothing at all to force anyone to honour the result- it all hung on David Camerons promise, and hes deferred it to the next guy. 

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47 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

I hope like hell you are right Steve,i really do...

I'm just so used to seeing our leaders in the US say one thing and then do the opposite all the while our citizens go back to the polls a few years later after much bickering to vote once again for the same ruling slimeballs!

All in the name of voting for "the lesser of two evils",problem being those "two evils" are really one and the same!

Career,elitist,power hungry maniacs!

And don't dare bring up a third party in these lands,i'm a outsider and i like it... :D

We have forced out 2  "career elitist power hungry maniacs,", but unfortunately Scotland  and Northern Ireland hasn't .

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13 minutes ago, Torchwood said:

I doubt it. The only thing they could possibly fear is mass violent uprising (which is less likely than England winning the European Championship) . UKIP have lied through their teeth and Farage is probably finished; even if their huge share of the electorate forgives them it will still only result in 1 or two seats- The conservatives will lose support so we'll probably end up with a labour govt. I suppose Lib dem fortunes might actually recover!  

There is currently nothing at all to force anyone to honour the result- it all hung on David Camerons promise, and hes deferred it to the next guy. 

Its a hell of a statement if the Referendum result is to be ignored. But what has David Cameron done today, He's addressed the HoC stating the result is to be honoured. He's basically set up a New Government department for the Negotiations. It'll soon be time to send this team out into the world to seek out the opportunities, so once article 50 is triggered the negotiations will be much shorter than otherwise. -  We have to plan ahead, we have to put UK interests first and foremost, There are elections in France (April) and Germany (October) next year, - then we have to look at the EU presidency, who's in the hot seat and when? Malta takes the Hot seat early next year January to June, followed by the United Kingdom. July to December 2017. then you have to look at the Calendar for EU Council meetings etc.. We should aim for Negotiations to start mid October 2016 and be concluded by the 1st November 2019. at this point negotiations end and we Leave the EU.

 

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2 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Its a hell of a statement if the Referendum result is to be ignored. But what has David Cameron done today, He's addressed the HoC stating the result is to be honoured. He's basically set up a New Government department for the Negotiations. It'll soon be time to send this team out into the world to seek out the opportunities, so once article 50 is triggered the negotiations will be much shorter than otherwise. -  We have to plan ahead, we have to put UK interests first and foremost, There are elections in France (April) and Germany (October) next year, - then we have to look at the EU presidency, who's in the hot seat and when? Malta takes the Hot seat early next year January to June, followed by the United Kingdom. July to December 2017. then you have to look at the Calendar for EU Council meetings etc.. We should aim for Negotiations to start mid October 2016 and be concluded by the 1st November 2019. at this point negotiations end and we Leave the EU.

 

Meaningless. Cameron can state what he wants, HE PROMISED to trigger article 50, nobody else. Its not up to them to carry out his wishes once he's left office . He can't hold anyone to that. If he doesnt do it, it wont be done. He's got time to change his mind, but theres nothing to stop him breaking that promise, and I bet Boris is sweating now.

Also the other eu nations have refused to negotiate until the article is triggered. Boris et al can play for time as much as he likes now, but if they dont play ball he can't make any plans at all...all that extra time is more time to put  off putting off leaving the EU. 

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The executive, the Government has been mandated by the people through this Referendum: The UK will Leave the EU: Its false hope if people think it will not happen or it can be blocked by the likes of Nicola Sturgeon - The holder of the title Prime Minister can trigger article 50 it doesn't have to be Dave. is it not beyond the realm of possibility that Cameron triggers Article 50 as his last act as Prime Minister? or once the Tory party elects a new leader, and they take the position of Prime Minister they could trigger Article 50 as their first act as PM. - we'll just have to wait and see how and when but be under no illusion Article 50 will be triggered at some point, the UK is Leaving the EU. 

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5 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

The executive, the Government has been mandated by the people through this Referendum: The UK will Leave the EU: Its false hope if people think it will not happen or it can be blocked by the likes of Nicola Sturgeon - The holder of the title Prime Minister can trigger article 50 it doesn't have to be Dave. is it not beyond the realm of possibility that Cameron triggers Article 50 as his last act as Prime Minister? or once the Tory party elects a new leader, and they take the position of Prime Minister they could trigger Article 50 as their first act as PM. - we'll just have to wait and see how and when but be under no illusion Article 50 will be triggered at some point, the UK is Leaving the EU. 

Its political suicide not to implement article 50 and I dont think our country really needs the disorder either which would likely be bigger than that seen with the poll tax.

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Mandated?  Rubbish.  There is nothing that says they MUST ever enact article 50. There is no timescale , no deadline by which it must be enacted. The referendum was never intended to be binding, it was merely asking for opinions. 

It doesnt have to be Dave that triggers it but if he doesnt there is no reason for anyone else to do it. And yes I suppose he could change his mind, but why would he when he can hand his successor who outed him such a heavy burden. Nobody wants to be the one to do it, because it will end careers and governments alike. Certainly the only Leave candidates for the tory leadership are now bricking it and backtracking on the urgency of leaving, and any others that fight for the leadership from the Remain camp have no reason what so ever to trigger it.  

I'm not saying Britain will never leave the EU; empires rise and empires fall, and few are still bearing the same name after a few centuries. But I wouldnt expect article 50 to be triggered any decade soon. They'll put it off and procrastinate, and complain that the stars are not aligned, the auspices are not auspicious and the time isn't ripe, and then they'll put it off some more...

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4 minutes ago, Torchwood said:

Mandated?  Rubbish.  There is nothing that says they MUST ever enact article 50. There is no timescale , no deadline by which it must be enacted. The referendum was never intended to be binding, it was merely asking for opinions. 

It doesnt have to be Dave that triggers it but if he doesnt there is no reason for anyone else to do it. And yes I suppose he could change his mind, but why would he when he can hand his successor who outed him such a heavy burden. Nobody wants to be the one to do it, because it will end careers and governments alike. Certainly the only Leave candidates for the tory leadership are now bricking it and backtracking on the urgency of leaving, and any others that fight for the leadership from the Remain camp have no reason what so ever to trigger it.  

I'm not saying Britain will never leave the EU; empires rise and empires fall, and few are still bearing the same name after a few centuries. But I wouldnt expect article 50 to be triggered any decade soon. They'll put it off and procrastinate, and complain that the stars are not aligned, the auspices are not auspicious and the time isn't ripe, and then they'll put it off some more...

If that is the case, and any of the actors in this farce is ever reelected, or if any of the Brexiters that are rowing back on their promises now is, Britons have absolutely lost the right to call us stupid.

Edited by questionmark
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11 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Its political suicide not to implement article 50 and I dont think our country really needs the disorder either which would likely be bigger than that seen with the poll tax.

Its political suicide either way- you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. 

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10 minutes ago, questionmark said:

If that is the case, and any of the actors in this farce is ever reelected, or if any of the Brexiters that are rowing back on their promises now is, Britons have absolutely lost the right to call us stupid.

Ha! Possibly. I think everyone was trying to be too clever for their own good.  Cameron thought he was clever calling for the referendum in the first place, A lot of Leave voters thought they were being clever with a protest vote to leave, the Cameron haters thought they were being clever toppling Cameron, Boris thought he was being clever with his move for the leadership, hoping he could land this all on Cameron, not realising Dave had the "get out of gaol free" card in an otherwise bad hand, Corbyn thought he was being clever staying out of the central debates and sitting on fences, and the remainers just generally assumed they were the smart ones because everyone else was a bigoted racist. 

And everyone got what they asked for , and nobody got what they wanted...

 

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If the referendum vote isn't honored, you're not just talking about political suicide, you're talking about the end of democratic politics in Britain, and we'll be worrying about a whole lot more than the impact of leaving the EU.

The best case scenario would be reform of the entire political system. The worst case scenario doesn't bear thinking about for people who've lived for decades in relative peace.

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7 hours ago, stevewinn said:

The executive, the Government has been mandated by the people through this Referendum: The UK will Leave the EU: Its false hope if people think it will not happen or it can be blocked by the likes of Nicola Sturgeon - The holder of the title Prime Minister can trigger article 50 it doesn't have to be Dave. is it not beyond the realm of possibility that Cameron triggers Article 50 as his last act as Prime Minister? or once the Tory party elects a new leader, and they take the position of Prime Minister they could trigger Article 50 as their first act as PM. - we'll just have to wait and see how and when but be under no illusion Article 50 will be triggered at some point, the UK is Leaving the EU. 

I hope your right Steve.  

But doesn't the stalling concern you. I am constantly reading the rantings by the chinless wonders who claim to have dissected article 50 and believe it can be blocked.  I have not read it myself but they are playing on a clause that says triggering article 50 should only happen if 65% of voters choose to leave with a minimum 75% turn out.

The longer we wait the more likely legal challenges will be prepared which could draw this out years, maybe decades.

Nicola Sturgeon is just an opportunist.  Talks of independence would have started regardless of the outcome as at the end of the day the SNP's goal is for an independent Scotland.  A second Scottish referendum was threatened long before the EU referendum not long after Salmond resigned.  Sturgeon is also spinning whether the Brexit would indeed persuade people who voted to remain in the UK change their minds.  Just like Salmond, she is playing that leaving the UK would give Scotland automatic EU membership when the noises from Brussels don't support it.  Now she thinks she can block a leave as an independent Scotland would have to apply for membership and have an uphill struggle to meet the criteria.  With the UK gone I doubt Brussels would want to bend the rules and have another small Country on their hands with an unproven economy.

For once I agree with Europe and would like article 50 triggered within the next few days.

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10 hours ago, CrimsonKing said:

@Black Red Devil

Sure man,with the good comes the bad but i believe the bad will only be short term...

This decision is less than a week old and was a major shock to the established order!

Besides anyting that upsets and po's George Soros only good can come of it ;)

Though i have read and studied up a bit more on this over recent days and wonder if a previous poster wasn't right...Will the UK's leaders even follow through with it?

This is really just getting started.

 

I think they may have some influence in ensuring it doesn't go through.

 

Quote

The royal family is seriously considering making a dramatic intervention in the referendum debate with an announcement that it supports Britain remaining inside the European Union.

That the royals are prepared to risk provoking a potential constitutional crisis shows just how deep their anger is at parts of the British press and senior politicians.

 

I'm pretty sure they have a high interest in keeping the UK together.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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Can i just ask, people such as Torchwood and QM, would you be pleased if the popular vote was to be ignored, on some technicality? You seem to be having a bit of a chortle at the prospect. Would you be happy with that precedent, if it was repeated in a General election, say? Or is it just because the vote didn't go the way you wanted? 

Edited by Otto von Pickelhaube
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1 hour ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

Can i just ask, people such as Torchwood and QM, would you be pleased if the popular vote was to be ignored, on some technicality? You seem to be having a bit of a chortle at the prospect. Would you be happy with that precedent, if it was repeated in a General election, say? Or is it just because the vote didn't go the way you wanted? 

Don't you just hate it when the internet eats your post?  Anyway:

No I wouldn't.

The people should get what they asked for,

I wouldn't be happy. The precedent was already set with general elections too- every time we vote there is a huge imbalance between how people vote and how seats are won- Labour and the conservatives only got 3 times as many votes as UKIP but got 300 times as much power! Ukip got twice as many votes as the SNP but got 56 times less power!  How on earth is that democratic?  But as long as it serves those in power it will never change. 

I cant stand ukip, bunch of racist morons, each and every one of them, but if the people want them they should get them? who am I to judge the people for its voting tastes? If we believe in democracy we have to believe in the bits we don't like much too!  

I didn't vote to remain because I like the EU but because I think if anyone takes us out of the EU it should be someone sensible and sane, not a clown and his bigoted friend.

But I would be chortling a bit- because it would prove that I was right all along, and that all those people saying "pick a party, your vote matters!" were exactly as naive as I think they are , and that all those elected officials are exactly as corrupt, self serving and deceitful as I've always said.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong....

 

 

BTW some cool Referendum facts:

Quote

Major referendums have been rare in the UK, and have always been on constitutional issues. Before Tony Blair's Labour government came to power in 1997, only four such referendums had been held.

There are two types of referendum that have been held by the UK Government, pre-legislative (held before proposed legislation is passed) and post-legislative (held after legislation is passed). To date both the previous two UK-wide referendums in 1975 and 2011 were post-legislative. Referendums are not legally binding, so legally the Government can ignore the results; for example, even if the result of a pre-legislative referendum were a majority of "No" for a proposed law, Parliament could pass it anyway, because parliament is sovereign.

Legally, Parliament at any point in future could reverse legislation approved by referendum, because the concept of parliamentary sovereignty means no Parliament can prevent a future Parliament from amending or repealing legislation. However, reversing legislation approved by referendum would be unprecedented.

 

Edited by Torchwood
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