EU referendum: 23 June date set for UK vote

[Jarocal]

It's clear you haven't received the Memo. It reads - If its British-run its crap, if its British made its crap and someone else can do it better, - on the other hand, if its Japanese "Yamazumi" or German "Lean" manufacturing its the Bee's Knee's.

We keep reading how disastrous economically it would be for Britain leaving the EU, Yet apparently if we leave everything is still going to be rosy inside the EU. So what the likes of Questionmark is trying to tell us is this, Britain the EU's biggest single market can leave and it wont affect the EU one iota. So the UK imports more from the EU than the USA does, But Questionmark states Germany will step in and take up the slack. How exactly is Germany going to firstly fund the UK's membership contribution of (£10 billion) or (£19.2 billion treasury balance sheet) combined with the market share of British imported goods and services we currently get from the EU, So all these goods and services we currently import from the EU who is going to buy them when we leave Germany?

The truth is the market or markets don't exist, there are no markets ready to take the UK's place. If there was these markets they would exist already and the EU's economy would be booming, employment at a all time high as the EU serves these markets But as it stands here in the real world the EU is bouncing along the bottom, high unemployment, a shrinking share of world output, (global) accounted for by the 28 current members of the EU has fallen from 30% to 17% from 1980 to 2015. the EU needs all the markets it can muster. But we are meant to believe we have no bargaining hand with the EU. - there single biggest market in the world UK 16% china for example is 8%. Japan 3% (these figures exclude UK % of trade to these countries)

Someone tell me what's the impact on the EU when we leave? how much will it cost the Eurozone and EU as a whole, how many jobs will be lost. After all we import more from the EU than they do from us.The fact is people, if we leave we both face an initial dip which will force a mutual interest deal. not a Canadian deal or Norwegian deal or Swiss deal but our own individual UK deal. after all this the EU will go on much the same and so will the UK. only difference is we will be outside the EU, have full control of our borders, once again British courts will rule the land, we'll have our seat back at the world trade organisation, we'll regain our fishing grounds and most importantly our sovereignty and maybe just maybe a bit of self pride in the process.

If you wanted, you could invest a chunk of that 10-20 billion into South America. I am fairly certain they would satisfactorily help fill some of your import needs at a good price.

Not to mention the irritation it would give Argentina to see the UK bolster all it's neighbors economically...

[Guest Br Cornelius]

The EU's share of world GDP has declined because China and india and Brazil have done remarkably well over the last few decades, taking an ever greater share of world trade. Not even you Steve can pin that on the EU

The crazy thing is - you actually believe these lies.

The hysteria is ramping up so much that theirs bound to be a UKIP self-immulation by June.

Br Cornelius

Edited April 23, 2016 by Br Cornelius

[questionmark]

The EU's share of world GDP has declined because China and india and Brazil have done remarkably well over the last few decades, taking an ever greater share of world trade. Not even you Steve can pin that on the EU

Br Cornelius

Don't try, logic is hardly what helps you in this case.

[Space Commander Travis]

The EU's share of world GDP has declined because China and india and Brazil have done remarkably well over the last few decades, taking an ever greater share of world trade. Not even you Steve can pin that on the EU

So that just adds fuel to the argument that the UK would be better off concentrating on trading with places like those, rather than a failing and obsolescent trading bloc based purely on geographical proximity, which surely anyone would agree is an outdated basis for a trading bloc in view of modern communications and transport.

But logic is hardly going to help in this case, is it.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

So that just adds fuel to the argument that the UK would be better off concentrating on trading with places like those, rather than a failing and obsolescent trading bloc based purely on geographical proximity, which surely anyone would agree is an outdated basis for a trading bloc in view of modern communications and transport.

But logic is hardly going to help in this case, is it.

its not an either or situation. The UK can trade with both, but cutting off one market is hardly going to improve the UK's balance of trade. As a simple matter of fact though - most goods cost a lot to move long distances (think food, oil, fertilizers, trains, cars) so there are definate advantages to trading with your neighbours - which is why the majority of any countries trade is with its neighbours even in the current world.

Br Cornelius

Edited April 23, 2016 by Br Cornelius

[LV-426]

It seems this man just can't keep his mouth shut...

Post-Brexit trade deal with US could take 10 years, Obama warns

Ohh really? Maybe he should pay attention to his own, soon to be ex, position, and why he's likely to go down as the least popular President in American history. Maybe he should ask himself why a man with some pretty extreme views such as Donald Trump is making such inroads in American politics, and why he has a very real chance of becoming the next President. Personally, I'm no Trump fan, but each day that passes I'm understanding more and more why people are.

Trumps views on Brexit:

“I think that Britain will separate from the EU. I think that maybe it’s time – especially in light of what has happened with the craziness that’s going on, with the migration, with people pouring in all over the place – I think that Britain will end up seperating from the EU.”

(He goes on to say he isn't endorsing it one way or the other - unlike Obama's biased interference)

Trumps views on Britain:

“I love the UK, I think it’s an amazing – just one of my favourite places in the world – I love the people… I just think that if I become president, I know that we’re going to have a fantastic relationship…I think the relationship will be better, actually much better, and much stronger than it is right now.”

Doesn't exactly sound like the views of a man who wants to "put us to the back of the queue" or drag out a ten year trade deal.

Like I say, I'm no fan - read my posts in other threads - but Trump is showing more respect to the British people than Cameron's best buddy.

[Space Commander Travis]

its not an either or situation. The UK can trade with both, but cutting off one market is hardly going to improve the UK's balance of trade. As a simple matter of fact though - most goods cost a lot to move long distances (think food, oil, fertilizers, trains, cars) so there are definate advantages to trading with your neighbours - which is why the majority of any countries trade is with its neighbours even in the current world.

Br Cornelius

If trade with Europe was cut off, or at least they put up prices and taxes and what have you, following Brexit* due to sheer vindictiveness and hatred, that says a lot, lot more about the politicians of Europe than it does about narrow-minded Little Englanders. Surely one would be much better off being free of such a gang of vindictive bullies.

* I think it needs a , don't you. Whoever coined the phrase would be rolling in it

[Guest Br Cornelius]

If trade with Europe was cut off, or at least they put up prices and taxes and what have you, following Brexit™* due to sheer vindictiveness and hatred, that says a lot, lot more about the politicians of Europe than it does about narrow-minded Little Englanders. Surely one would be much better off being free of such a gang of vindictive bullies.

* I think it needs a ™, don't you. Whoever coined the phrase would be rolling in it

Considering that the Brexit enterprise is premised on the British setting themselves up as the financial pirate of the world, unchecked by regulation. Also it been able to undercut the rest of Europe by removing all the regulation the market operates on - is it really surprising that the EU would choose to kill that advantage to protect its members states from profiteering by imposing heavy tariffs ?

The EU is all about a level playing field on which countries can trade on equal terms and they look very unfavorably on Britain trying to have its cake (access to that market) and eating it (no regulation of Britains production). i think the EU are behaving very reasonably in the face of the UK's unreasonable expectations.

Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

Considering that the Brexit enterprise is premised on the British setting themselves up as the financial pirate of the world, unchecked by regulation. Also it been able to undercut the rest of Europe by removing all the regulation the market operates on - is it really surprising that the EU would choose to kill that advantage to protect its members states from profiteering by imposing heavy tariffs ?

The EU is all about a level playing field on which countries can trade on equal terms and they look very unfavorably on Britain trying to have its cake (access to that market) and eating it (no regulation of Britains production). i think the EU are behaving very reasonably in the face of the UK's unreasonable expectations.

Br Cornelius

Are you sure you're not really a European Commissioner? The EU is all about a level playing field? You surely can't type these things with a straight face can you.

[stevewinn]

Considering that the Brexit enterprise is premised on the British setting themselves up as the financial pirate of the world, unchecked by regulation. Also it been able to undercut the rest of Europe by removing all the regulation the market operates on - is it really surprising that the EU would choose to kill that advantage to protect its members states from profiteering by imposing heavy tariffs ?

The EU is all about a level playing field on which countries can trade on equal terms and they look very unfavorably on Britain trying to have its cake (access to that market) and eating it (no regulation of Britains production). i think the EU are behaving very reasonably in the face of the UK's unreasonable expectations.

Br Cornelius

So Britain cannot have its cake and eat it, with that phrase you are admitting THERE is a down side for us being in the EU. But your not the only one to admit that,our very own Prime Minister said if he couldn't secure the deal for Britain we'd leave. So apparently we COULD make it on our own If he didn't get the concessions on immigrant Benefits, opt out of Ever closer Union, a safe guard that we wont have to pay towards any future Eurozone bailouts or be penalised by not being in the Euro. but apparently Cameron was successful even though he went to europe asking for nothing and come back with even less. and to make matters worse nothing is ratified or no legal process to bring these concessions to fruition. and now we are told we cannot make it on our own. - So you want me to believe that was the fine line. those concessions were the difference between us going and us staying - its a complete joke and people want us to accept such utter tosh without question, im sorry, i really am but only a complete deluded fool would accept such a argument.

Back to Trade and Tariffs: So if we go from Iceland in the far north to Turkey in the Asia Minor, So right across the Euorpean continent there are no EU tariffs, for countries either inside the EU or for Countries outside the EU, who are not members - Why would the EU place tariffs on the UK. - okay Belarus has EU tariffs but this is because its a communist dictatorship linked to Russia. Said it no better than Andrew Neil.

Just watch the Conservative MP's face when the tough questions start being asked, his eye contact at the start of the interview disappears and he starts looking at the table as he spouts the party sound bites. searching in his brain for the default replies. it all goes downhill for him when they ask about the Norwegian/Switzerland EU laws / trade deal.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Are you sure you're not really a European Commissioner? The EU is all about a level playing field? You surely can't type these things with a straight face can you.

Thats exactly what it is. The Eu is first and formost about creating a tariff free trading area where everyone follows the same standards.

Br Cornelius

[stevewinn]

It seems this man just can't keep his mouth shut...

Post-Brexit trade deal with US could take 10 years, Obama warns

Ohh really? Maybe he should pay attention to his own, soon to be ex, position, and why he's likely to go down as the least popular President in American history. Maybe he should ask himself why a man with some pretty extreme views such as Donald Trump is making such inroads in American politics, and why he has a very real chance of becoming the next President. Personally, I'm no Trump fan, but each day that passes I'm understanding more and more why people are.

Trumps views on Brexit:

“I think that Britain will separate from the EU. I think that maybe it’s time – especially in light of what has happened with the craziness that’s going on, with the migration, with people pouring in all over the place – I think that Britain will end up seperating from the EU.”

(He goes on to say he isn't endorsing it one way or the other - unlike Obama's biased interference)

Trumps views on Britain:

“I love the UK, I think it’s an amazing – just one of my favourite places in the world – I love the people… I just think that if I become president, I know that we’re going to have a fantastic relationship…I think the relationship will be better, actually much better, and much stronger than it is right now.”

Doesn't exactly sound like the views of a man who wants to "put us to the back of the queue" or drag out a ten year trade deal.

Like I say, I'm no fan - read my posts in other threads - but Trump is showing more respect to the British people than Cameron's best buddy.

Obama yet again sticking to the orchestrated script, Where else have we heard the 10 year trade deal WARNING. its like groundhogg day. - ten years to thrash out a trade deal in the 21 century. and they want us to believe that? c'mon. they are taking us has fools. we built a ******* empire on the back of a fag packet, me must have some pretty crap leaders/trade envoys. if it takes longer today than it did over a hundred years ago.

Edited April 24, 2016 by stevewinn

[Guest Br Cornelius]

All the costs and few of the benefits:

The Brexiters’ case is that Britain is held back by Europe: unshackled, it could soar as an open economy that continued to trade with the EU and all round the world. That is possible in theory, but as our briefing (see Briefing) explains, it is not how things would work in practice. At a minimum, the EU would allow full access to its single market only in return for adherence to rules that Eurosceptics are keen to jettison. If Norway and Switzerland (whose arrangements with the EU many Brexiters idolise) are a guide, the union would also demand the free movement of people and a big payment to its budget before allowing unfettered access to the market.

Worse, the EU would have a strong incentive to impose a harsh settlement to discourage other countries from leaving. The Brexit camp’s claim that Europe needs Britain more than the other way round is fanciful: the EU takes almost half Britain’s exports, whereas Britain takes less than 10% of the EU’s; and the British trade deficit is mostly with the Germans and Spanish, not with the other 25 countries that would have to agree on a new trade deal.

To some Eurosceptics these hardships would be worth it if they meant reclaiming sovereignty from Europe, whose bureaucrats and judges interfere with everything from bankers’ bonuses to working-time limits. Yet the gain would be partly illusory. In a globalised world, power is necessarily pooled and traded: Britain gives up sovereignty in exchange for clout through its memberships of NATO, the IMF and countless other power-sharing, rule-setting institutions. Signing up to treaties on trade, nuclear power or the environment involves submitting to regulations set jointly with foreigners, in return for greater gains. Britain outside the EU would be on the sidelines: notionally independent from, but in fact still constrained by, rules it would have no role in formulating. It would be a purer but rather powerless sort of sovereignty.

http://www.economist...est-real-danger

All the placate the Little Englanders. i think not.

Br Cornelius

Edited April 24, 2016 by Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

Thats exactly what it is. The Eu is first and formost about creating a tariff free trading area where everyone follows the same standards.

Br Cornelius

but you don't see that that's a lot of where the problems with it lie? That Europe is such a wide and diverse group of nations that the same standards aren't appropriate to apply everywhere? That it would inevitably be biased in favour of the powerful nations and powerful banks, and serve their interests first and foremost? That the rules that are designed to benefit enormous French agricultural producers are hardly likely to be relevant or helpful to small farmers in Wales or Greece with a handful of sheep, but they still have to follow the same rules as if they were a mass meat producer with thousands of sheep in their Intensive Breeding Units. As surely Greece (and also Spain and Portugal) have found. And that that's one of the main flaws with the Euro?

[Space Commander Travis]

All the costs and few of the benefits:

What are these exports that Europe takes almost half of, and would they really not buy them any more? I'd like someone to explain exactly what they are.

And really Br, resorting to "Little Englander" really is just childish, as childish as calling anyone who doesn't share your hatred of D. Trump a racist bigot who hates women. It really is an argument from desperation.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

but you don't see that that's a lot of where the problems with it lie? That Europe is such a wide and diverse group of nations that the same standards aren't appropriate to apply everywhere? That it would inevitably be biased in favour of the powerful nations and powerful banks, and serve their interests first and foremost? That the rules that are designed to benefit enormous French agricultural producers are hardly likely to be relevant or helpful to small farmers in Wales or Greece with a handful of sheep, but they still have to follow the same rules as if they were a mass meat producer with thousands of sheep in their Intensive Breeding Units. As surely Greece (and also Spain and Portugal) have found. And that that's one of the main flaws with the Euro?

I am sorry but I cannot acquiesce to the notion that protectionist policies will lead to anything but a depressed economy. You should also look into the way the CAP works and how one of its main planks is to keep marginal farmers and their dependent rural communities in a healthy and viable state. So the EU is the main protector of small welsh farmers in the face of global competition from the ranch scale farmers of Europe and the USA.

Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

And come on Economist, surely you're aware you're talking b******s.

In a globalised world, power is necessarily pooled and traded: Britain gives up sovereignty in exchange for clout through its memberships of NATO, the IMF and countless other power-sharing, rule-setting institutions.

What the hell clout does anyone that's not America have through membership of NATO; for Trump's sake? And the IMF exactly the same. We all know what they're for, and it's for promoting America's interests and America's alone.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

What are these exports that Europe takes almost half of, and would they really not buy them any more? I'd like someone to explain exactly what they are.

Are you really going to accuse the Economist of been economic liars ??

And really Br, resorting to "Little Englander" really is just childish, as childish as calling anyone who doesn't share your hatred of D. Trump a racist bigot who hates women. It really is an argument from desperation.

I call people for what I see them as, people who would rather have a poor and less secure nation that is free of the EU than membership of one of the largest trading blocks in the world. Its no coincidence that most Brexiters are middle class, English and older conservatives.

Br Cornelius

Edited April 24, 2016 by Br Cornelius

[Guest Br Cornelius]

What the hell clout does anyone that's not America have through membership of NATO; for Trump's sake? And the IMF exactly the same. We all know what they're for, and it's for promoting America's interests and America's alone.

Thats is exactly how the world works - by membership of cooperative groupings and by Treaty. By cutting yourself out of one of the largest then you inevitably diminish your influence on world affairs. The stronger that the EU grows - the less we will be pushed around by America in the form of the IMF and NATO.

I have even heard it said that this nis exactly the objective from one of our members here, cut yourself off from the big bad world and the trouble it brings to your door - and I daresay that is what motivates many Brexiters. But we all know it doesn't work out that way - you just become victim to more bullies.

Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

I am sorry but I cannot acquiesce to the notion that protectionist policies will lead to anything but a depressed economy. You should also look into the way the CAP works and how one of its main planks is to keep marginal farmers and their dependent rural communities in a healthy and viable state. So the EU is the main protector of small welsh farmers in the face of global competition from the ranch scale farmers of Europe and the USA.

Br Cornelius

do you actually believe these things, or do you just repeat these from the list of Official EU Dogmas that you have in front of you?

[questionmark]

Thats is exactly how the world works - by membership of cooperative groupings and by Treaty. By cutting yourself out of one of the largest then you inevitably diminish your influence on world affairs. The stronger that the EU grows - the less we will be pushed around by America in the form of the IMF and NATO.

I have even heard it said that this nis exactly the objective from one of our members here, cut yourself off from the big bad world and the trouble it brings to your door - and I daresay that is what motivates many Brexiters. But we all know it doesn't work out that way - you just become victim to more bullies.

Br Cornelius

Your problem is not being pushed around by the IMF or the NATO, your problem is much more to the East.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

do you actually believe these things, or do you just repeat these from the list of Official EU Dogmas that you have in front of you?

I know these things, I have studied the CAP and understand its objectives. I also understand that the EU has been a vehicle for general growth of the EU GDP because of its open market access.

I think it is you who are fixated on some weird anti-globalist dogma.

Br Cornelius

Edited April 24, 2016 by Br Cornelius

[bee]

It seems this man just can't keep his mouth shut...

Post-Brexit trade deal with US could take 10 years, Obama warns

Ohh really? Maybe he should pay attention to his own, soon to be ex, position, and why he's likely to go down as the least popular President in American history. Maybe he should ask himself why a man with some pretty extreme views such as Donald Trump is making such inroads in American politics, and why he has a very real chance of becoming the next President. Personally, I'm no Trump fan, but each day that passes I'm understanding more and more why people are.

Trumps views on Brexit:

“I think that Britain will separate from the EU. I think that maybe it’s time – especially in light of what has happened with the craziness that’s going on, with the migration, with people pouring in all over the place – I think that Britain will end up seperating from the EU.”

(He goes on to say he isn't endorsing it one way or the other - unlike Obama's biased interference)

Trumps views on Britain:

“I love the UK, I think it’s an amazing – just one of my favourite places in the world – I love the people… I just think that if I become president, I know that we’re going to have a fantastic relationship…I think the relationship will be better, actually much better, and much stronger than it is right now.”

Doesn't exactly sound like the views of a man who wants to "put us to the back of the queue" or drag out a ten year trade deal.

Like I say, I'm no fan - read my posts in other threads - but Trump is showing more respect to the British people than Cameron's best buddy.

Re what Trump said about the craziness going on with migration 'with people pouring in all over the place'....

I've noticed that the main media outlets on TV seem to be going a bit quiet on that subject at the moment - because it doesn't put the EU in a very good light while the referendum propaganda debate is in progress -- (unless I've missed stuff because I don't watch the news all the time )

It did report on Merkel's visit to Turkey though and this on a BBC website said...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36117950

German Chancellor Angela Merkel and top EU officials have joined Turkey's PM to visit a migrant camp on the Turkish-Syrian border, as they seek to bolster a controversial EU-Turkey deal.

The team met children and inspected living conditions at the Nizip camp, home to some 5,000 migrants.

Human rights groups criticised the visit as "sanitised".

But European Council President Donald Tusk said Turkey was the "best example in the world of how to treat refugees".

Oh dear - looks like there's some serious a*** licking going on - from a different Donald T.

Never mind that Erdogan led Turkey is practically an open supporter of Islamic State and has a repressive government -

There is also the freedom of speech controversy going on ....

Mrs Merkel's trip comes as she faces additional pressure for agreeing to the prosecution of German comedian Jan Boehmermann, who is accused of insulting Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan by reading out a satirical poem.

Advocates of freedom of speech in both Turkey and Germany have called on her to send out a strong message on the issue during her visit.

I don't think a strong message will be sent on this as it would not fit in with the appeasement -

If Turkey is given EU membership Europe had better get used to this kind of thing -- :/

The British people are being subjected to some heavy propaganda from the Remain Camp and it seems that Cameron et al think that Britain as an independent sovereign nation is finished --- gone ---- a notion consigned to history --- when the public voted to join the Common Market back in the 70s they / we were conned -- and the political aspects were kept secret... all the emphasis put on trade -- just like now where trade is the main argument - but the political changes that shape the future are swept under the carpet ...

.

[stevewinn]

All the costs and few of the benefits:

http://www.economist...est-real-danger

All the placate the Little Englanders. i think not.

Br Cornelius

Doesn't really explain the truth does it. the EU takes almost half, 44% is the figure and dropping. - but if you paint the full picture you get a better sense of scale. over 93% of the British economy is self contained here within the UK's borders of the remaining 7% is world & EU trade, less than half of that is with the EU. But we have to apply 100% EU regulation right across the UK. - How about we leave the EU, apply world Trade organisation rules, and free up 96% of the British economy from EU legislation and interference. That leaves just 3% of the economy to negotiate with the EU, But apparently this will take 10 years. Lets all have a good laugh.

[Black Monk]

All the costs and few of the benefits:

http://www.economist...est-real-danger

All the placate the Little Englanders. i think not.

Br Cornelius

The term "Little Englander" is disgusting. It labels as "racist" those people who love their country and merely want it to be a free, sovereign, self-governing nation state, free from the nefarious interference of Brussels. Since when has wanting freedom for your country been racist?

It also amuses me as well when idiots use the term "Little Englander" because it originally denoted somebody who was against the British Empire and British imperialism. It's just been hijacked in recent years by anti-English and anti-British bigots such as yourself to denigrate any British person who is proud to be British or, more especially, any English person who is proud to be English.

And if you think that denigrating people as "Little Enfflanders" will in some way help the Remain camp you've got another thing coming. If British voters keep being labelled as "Little Englanders" over the coming weeks it'll surely spur them into voting Leave.