Low down underhanded trick.

[barbco196]

What about non-believers choice of no religion?

Proselytizing gets old to the non-believer. It starts to become very irritating and we just want it to stop.

Why does it not speak volumes about the giver?

Praying for someone and proselytizing are two very different things.

[+Liquid Gardens]

I am trying to understand how a gesture such as praying for someone could be taken in a negative way.

I can think of multiple ways off the top of my head. First, there is some subset of believers who give indications that they are notifying you that they are praying for you not only for your sake, but for their own and how they think they are viewed; that is selfish. I can also understand how someone may find it offensive because of how they feel about your god given their circumstances; if your child has painful bone cancer and feel that if there is a god that he is responsible for it, a position I think is very reasonable, then acting like this same god should be worshipped and is actually benevolent and good could be repugnant to them.

Speaks volumes about the receiver, not the giver.

Only if you make a lot of assumptions about all the givers and that their motivations are good.

Regarding your question about praying for someone quietly and it's effectiveness: The Bible says this:

Matthew 18:20King James Version (KJV)

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Many people have the belief prayer is more powerful in numbers.

The Bible also says this:

Matthew 6:5-6:

When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you"

Not just 'gather', this specifically talks about 'praying'. I guess it doesn't specifically say that you can't pray in secret and then go blab to others how you have done so, but I'll stick with the general tenor of the passage. I have no problem with Christians sharing with their fellow Christians that they are praying for them, they are supposed to have fellowship with each other. But to assume that everyone has the same positive view of God says lots more about the giver than the receiver to me.

[Euphorbia]

Praying for someone and proselytizing are two very different things.

There's a very fine line........

[barbco196]

I can think of multiple ways off the top of my head. First, there is some subset of believers who give indications that they are notifying you that they are praying for you not only for your sake, but for their own and how they think they are viewed; that is selfish. I can also understand how someone may find it offensive because of how they feel about your god given their circumstances; if your child has painful bone cancer and feel that if there is a god that he is responsible for it, a position I think is very reasonable, then acting like this same god should be worshipped and is actually benevolent and good could be repugnant to them.

Only if you make a lot of assumptions about all the givers and that their motivations are good.

The Bible also says this:

Matthew 6:5-6:

When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you"

Not just 'gather', this specifically talks about 'praying'. I guess it doesn't specifically say that you can't pray in secret and then go blab to others how you have done so, but I'll stick with the general tenor of the passage. I have no problem with Christians sharing with their fellow Christians that they are praying for them, they are supposed to have fellowship with each other. But to assume that everyone has the same positive view of God says lots more about the giver than the receiver to me.

I am allowing anyone to form their own opinions regarding prayer. I quoted that particular passage because MustardLady posed the question. I didn't say it was how I felt, I was helping her understand why they might feel it necessary to pray in his presence. In my world, if anything, anyone does offends me; I simply ask them to refrain. I don't let it affect me or make me bitter.

There's a very fine line........

There shouldn't be.

Edited March 15, 2016 by barbco196

[+Hammerclaw]

I wouldn't waste a moment's prayer on anyone adamantly against it. Christ said of such people, if they would not receive your message, to shake their dust of your feet and move on. That's good enough for me.

[Michelle]

most hospitals are owned by a church of some kind.

The one I've been admitted to several times is Catholic. When checking in, they ask if you would like a member of the clergy to visit with you. I always say no and they leave me completely alone. If the door is open when they walk by they will wave and tell me to have a nice day.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Praying for someone and proselytizing are two very different things.

It depends on whether you are praying for my salvation or my health. Praying isn't all that different from casting a spell. I don't what your salvation. I am fine as I am with my spiritual path. You got to remember in my tradition, each are on different paths as to what life has to unfold for them. If I need positive affirmations I have people who know how to provide it according to the precepts of my path.

[barbco196]

I wouldn't waste a moment's prayer on anyone adamantly against it. Christ said of such people, if they would not receive your message, to shake their dust of your feet and move on. That's good enough for me.

I'm guessing you are referring to this:

Matthew 10:14King James Version (KJV)

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet

[Stubbly_Dooright]

I respect anyone's choice of religion. So, yes, I would welcome anyone to pray in their own way for me. I am trying to understand how a gesture such as praying for someone could be taken in a negative way. Speaks volumes about the receiver, not the giver.

Ok, ok, That's good, ( Although, I would be very interested in your answer to Euphorbia's question of you respecting a non-religious person's choice. I noticed you didn't answer that part of his question. )

And something else should be in consideration, when stepping up and taking the responsibility toward someone else. Is someone really having the intent to help, when they do this, or are they subconsciously prosetylizing? Why the need to tell someone what you want to do, ( if there really is no immediate result) when you probably already realized it's going to cause unrest? Why even ask their permission, if it's effective when done in secret? I think one can do that, and come in and try to cheer up the person telling them you are hoping for their recovery. I do that.

Regarding your question about praying for someone quietly and it's effectiveness: The Bible says this:

Matthew 18:20King James Version (KJV)

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Many people have the belief prayer is more powerful in numbers.

So, I'm going to assume you are referencing this question of mine.

I would think prayer would be just as effective without telling anyone it's being done on them, right?

Ok, I can understand that, belief in numbers. Has that been proved to be effective? You just said, it's a belief it's effective. ( but you did answer my question on that. ) I do wonder why that is believed though. Have there been examples of that effectiveness?

I am not sure, if you should have included the bible verse. Just saying what you said in the last line was enough.

(Though, I must admit, I may just to some reflecting, experimenting, and all sorts of things with my belief. And see how that works.................*eye wriggle* )

i didn't notice how they walked away and yes they didn't bother me again. just using your term.

It was a term you first used in your post, post # 66. So don't say I started it.

Good, that they walked away. From my experiences, not all of them do. And we must remember, we're talking about being 'trapped' so to speak in a hospital. That is the point of the OP. Where one is more unlikely to free themselves or shut the door on such people.

Mystic Crusader, on 15 March 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

It's not about generous thoughts, it is about proselytizing, conquest.

That's YOUR interpretation. Not their intent.

Are you sure with all of them? I have some of them, when I have told them I wasn't interested get angry and hostile, and insulting. If all they want to do is just tell you, or just ask and are fine with being told someone is not interested, why do they get hostile and angry when you do the polite thing and gentle tell them you are not interested? I have experienced that. It really comes off to me, as they are trying to get points for themselves with every new recruit.

Precisely. We don't have to share the same beliefs. We just need to be kind and respectful.

Right, but some aren't. Trust me, I have some of them get really hostile and insulting and controlling.

What about non-believers choice of no religion?

Proselytizing gets old to the non-believer. It starts to become very irritating and we just want it to stop.

Why does it not speak volumes about the giver?

I like this point you asked, about the giver. Even the statement about the receiver sounds judgmental. Is this really about concern or judgement?

Praying for someone and proselytizing are two very different things.

Of course, but telling someone or asking someone if they could, crosses that line, doesn't it?

I can think of multiple ways off the top of my head. First, there is some subset of believers who give indications that they are notifying you that they are praying for you not only for your sake, but for their own and how they think they are viewed; that is selfish. I can also understand how someone may find it offensive because of how they feel about your god given their circumstances; if your child has painful bone cancer and feel that if there is a god that he is responsible for it, a position I think is very reasonable, then acting like this same god should be worshipped and is actually benevolent and good could be repugnant to them.

Only if you make a lot of assumptions about all the givers and that their motivations are good.

The Bible also says this:

Matthew 6:5-6:

When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you"

Not just 'gather', this specifically talks about 'praying'. I guess it doesn't specifically say that you can't pray in secret and then go blab to others how you have done so, but I'll stick with the general tenor of the passage. I have no problem with Christians sharing with their fellow Christians that they are praying for them, they are supposed to have fellowship with each other. But to assume that everyone has the same positive view of God says lots more about the giver than the receiver to me.

Holy cow!! Exactly!!

Barbco, why the half-bible verse post? LG's post here makes more sense. It also kind of says what I think about what I do.

I am allowing anyone to form their own opinions regarding prayer. I quoted that particular passage because MustardLady posed the question. I didn't say it was how I felt, I was helping her understand why they might feel it necessary to pray in his presence. In my world, if anything, anyone does offends me; I simply ask them to refrain. I don't let it affect me or make me bitter.

There shouldn't be.

Allowing?! Allowing them to form their own opinions? I don't think you have a choice on what their opinions are. Which ever, my question was on the effectiveness on whether you're praying openly to a non-believer, or praying for them in secret and whether it's still effective either way. I get your point about praying in numbers, but you also said it was a belief, not an answer to it's effectiveness. In fact, if you are pointing out the fact that praying in numbers is believed to be more effective, that means you are expecting the recipient to pray too, and I don't think they're going to do that.

Is that your meaning here, that someone wants the recipient to go against their point of view or their belief to participate in something that you think will be effective because in numbers? Doesn't that kind of causes harm in a way?

It kind of goes back to me asking if a group prays for someone in secret being more effective, than them praying in front of them.

So, do you see what I'm asking and as well as point out?

[back to earth]

Positive thoughts and well wishes are just that, whether in form of prayer, meditation, or...just good thoughts! I don't see any issue with getting them. Sure, don't preach to me, but otherwise not really worth complaining about or making into an issue

What ... so now people are going to ignore what was being complained about in the OP and turn it into a someone merely being worried that someone might be praying for him.

he was being preached to .... and subtly manipulated .... and his care and comfort was not put foremost .... that, along with his safety , should be any careers prime directive ! .

I have seen this problem a LOT ... in a public government hospital, with Christian nurses and fellow workers . It seems very hypocritical in my view. Especially when I observed patients getting better care and consideration and less judgement put on them by non-Christian staff !

Here is one example : A guy escaped and I went after him, with two Nurses following. We were out in the hospital grounds, it was winter and cold, he was naked. He didnt see a gutter while running and went down bad. We called for a mobile bed and had to wait. He started shivering and was getting cold lying on the ground naked. I said we had to get him covered. The two Nurses , both of whom I knew where devout Christians, were fully dressed with jumper and nurse's capes . They said we dont have anything. I said 'Use one of your capes"

They wouldnt ... so I had to take my orderly jacket off and put it over him while I squatted next to him bare chested and cold. Then the bed and blankets and security finally turned up and I got weird looks ! As I didnt have my shirt on ! And got questioned about it !

Later, I confronted the nurses about it. "I wouldnt have done that ... that guy is just a dirty drug addict anyway. "

I said "No, he is one of our patients and had a drug overdose, and actually he is a Federal Police Officer ! "

' Federal Police officers aren't drug addicts ! "

"He isnt a drug addict ! He had one episode of overdose in a failed suicide attempt . Dont you even know that his fiancee recently committed suicide ! "

"how do you know that ?"

"Cause I have been talking to him .... fer God's Sake ! "

That and several other similar occurances, just at that one place, really put me off 90% of the Christian staff. The others were wonderful Christian people that did care more about others ... and they never blew their trumpets about it .... or proselytized !

[back to earth]

That's YOUR interpretation. Not their intent.

It might not be your intent. but I dont see how you can speak for these others , when their real intent is exposed so clearly .

You sound like an apologist for them .

[danielost]

What ... so now people are going to ignore what was being complained about in the OP and turn it into a someone merely being worried that someone might be praying for him.

he was being preached to .... and subtly manipulated .... and his care and comfort was not put foremost .... that, along with his safety , should be any careers prime directive ! .

I have seen this problem a LOT ... in a public government hospital, with Christian nurses and fellow workers . It seems very hypocritical in my view. Especially when I observed patients getting better care and consideration and less judgement put on them by non-Christian staff !

Here is one example : A guy escaped and I went after him, with two Nurses following. We were out in the hospital grounds, it was winter and cold, he was naked. He didnt see a gutter while running and went down bad. We called for a mobile bed and had to wait. He started shivering and was getting cold lying on the ground naked. I said we had to get him covered. The two Nurses , both of whom I knew where devout Christians, were fully dressed with jumper and nurse's capes . They said we dont have anything. I said 'Use one of your capes"

They wouldnt ... so I had to take my orderly jacket off and put it over him while I squatted next to him bare chested and cold. Then the bed and blankets and security finally turned up and I got weird looks ! As I didnt have my shirt on ! And got questioned about it !

Later, I confronted the nurses about it. "I wouldnt have done that ... that guy is just a dirty drug addict anyway. "

I said "No, he is one of our patients and had a drug overdose, and actually he is a Federal Police Officer ! "

' Federal Police officers aren't drug addicts ! "

"He isnt a drug addict ! He had one episode of overdose in a failed suicide attempt . Dont you even know that his fiancee recently committed suicide ! "

"how do you know that ?"

"Cause I have been talking to him .... fer God's Sake ! "

That and several other similar occurances, just at that one place, really put me off 90% of the Christian staff. The others were wonderful Christian people that did care more about others ... and they never blew their trumpets about it .... or proselytized !

the good sumeratine and the priest surmon.

[XenoFish]

It depends on whether you are praying for my salvation or my health. Praying isn't all that different from casting a spell. I don't what your salvation. I am fine as I am with my spiritual path. You got to remember in my tradition, each are on different paths as to what life has to unfold for them. If I need positive affirmations I have people who know how to provide it according to the precepts of my path.

It's fun to tell Christians that they practice magick. Because there is very little difference in petitioning deities. If they're catholic it's a ceremonial magick.

If someone wishes to pray for me, I've got no problem with that. To me it's the thought that counts. Now if your trying to sell me your beliefs, move on to the next person.

[Grandpa Greenman]

What really bothered me was trying to get on a page that is posted as a non religious support page. There is only one reason to do that. To take advantage of people who are in need of support and try to convert them for jeSUS points.

[simplybill]

It didn't, they said I would never walk again. Though great effort and pain on my part I learned to walk again. I go in and out of rehab every once in a while. My MS is relapsing remitting and occasionally have episodes, put me in the hospital and rehab. Longest I been in is 3 months. I have now set up my house so I don't have to do rehab again, I hope.

GreenmansGod-

Just wanted to say thanks for posting that bolded part. It really made my day. Thanks for being an inspiration to us.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Shucks, you do what you got to do. Being in a wheelchair sucks big time.

[Mr Walker]

It didn't, they said I would never walk again. Though great effort and pain on my part I learned to walk again. I go in and out of rehab every once in a while. My MS is relapsing remitting and occasionally have episodes, put me in the hospital and rehab. Longest I been in is 3 months. I have now set up my house so I don't have to do rehab again, I hope. To say I have no spirituality is a misnomer. I do. My path just isn't Middle Eastern. I don't depend on a god to fix me. It's something I must do with the help of my doctors. Some of the most messed up people I know are very religious. The disease has progressed so they are little more than heads on a pillow. I had one I used to visit and read to. Many times I sat and read the Bible to her. It gave her comfort and that was all that matter to me. In the same situation I would rather someone read me the Bardo Thodol. Despite all her faith she never got any better only worse until she was unable to communicate at all and just laid there day after day in what I would call a living hell.

Sorry, like another poster you misunderstand my comment i would never suggest your health would worsen.

I meant that your position vis a vis getting spiritual advice within medical circles will probably worsen form your perspective (given that you disapprove of it) because such advice is increasingly being suggested in medical teaching and practice, due to the recognition of its beneficial effects on healing and health. Hopefully, if you don't want it, you will be able to avoid it, but it will become harder to do so.

i guess my comment on belief would be, as you recognised already, that the other patient's faith, while it did not heal her, may have given her courage and strength to endure the disease, and perhaps some comfort of mind, and peace..

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Shucks, you do what you got to do. Being in a wheelchair sucks big time.

Would it help, if I tried to make you laugh?!?! That's is one of the things I believe in. I love doing that at work. It's kind of a camaraderie thing. And I think it probably helps, I really do. http://www.helpguide.org/articles/emotional-health/laughter-is-the-best-medicine.htm

I could tell a really dumb, very corny, very bad joke....................

or I could find a emotican that goes cross eyed and spits green crap from it's nose, say the word, I'll go searching for it.

Or you can tell me a joke, while I'm drinking something, and you can watch it come out my nose!!!!

That cracked up my younger brother, while I was drinking hot chocolate.

[Mr Walker]

Don't forget that when you say "non-believers" you mean "non-believers in Christianity". I rather suspect the Muslim man I shared a ward with a couple of years ago would have been just as annoyed to have access only to a Bible and not a Quran.

So if you want access to the literature of your faith, would it have been so hard to bring your own bible? Remember, it's not the hospital that provides the bibles - that's the Gideons.

No i mean that NO religious literature was made available in hospitals for a time because its presence offended non believers. The hospitals developed policies that no religious books would be allowed to be placed in rooms.

Luckily times have changed and now medicine recognises the importance of all belief in healing .No i couldn't have brought a bible. i was rushed to hospital from work and then in an air ambulance from my home town 400 miles away, with only the clothes i was in .

I didn't mention it, but regular readers will know the rest of the story about how an angel manifested and delivered to me a bible which, when i opened at random, fell open to the lines. " Have no fear. No harm shall come to you, for i am watching over you (or similar)

Hospitals could easily have available, on request, a variety of religious books such as the koran or bible or torah Most now do. The doctors saved my life. The angel and the bible took away any fear any worry/concern, a lot of my pain, and made my stay much more comfortable and happy.

I spent nearly 3 weeks in hospital being observed, operated on , then recovering from a triple by pass.

You know i cant even remember opening the bible again. The miracle which accompanied its delivery gave me complete assurance that i would survive and be well. it empowered me and altered my metal attitude totally ( i had been alone in a hospital, away from any one i knew, any family or loved ones, facing a very major operation with a real, if low, risk of death, and suddenly god was physically with me and promising me all would be ok . ) The bible was actually then redundant. As a symbol, it was trumped by the physical and powerful presence of god .

[Mr Walker]

Once again, another drive-by but I needed to say - Mr Walker, please learn some compassion and stop turning EVERYTHING in a thread into a "I know best" approach. You already know (or should know) that GmG has faith, but instead of thinking of him and his situation you thought you'd plug your own ideals about spirituality and tell anyone willing to read that spirituality will help him if he only but opens up to the idea.

Shame. Sorry, back to regular programming.

See my other posts on this GMG complained about the intervention of faith based people in his treatment. I pointed out that, in reality, this will get worse due to the growing recognition of spirituality and belief in healing Hopefully health practitioners will respect GMG beliefs and work with him to utilise his individual faith to best effect or simply not invoke any spiritual dimension to his treatment.

i really can't comprehend how and why people misread such clear and simple statements from me. I think it is a bias based on what they THINK i am thinking, or expect me to say.

GMG posted this

I'm on a page for the chronically ill that is set up for the non religious support. The administrator says she is coming up with more and more wanting to join, when she checks them out only to find their pages covered with jeSUS memes. I am tired of people taking advantage of my infirmities to proselytize their religion. They have done it in stores, on the street, and the most underhanded place is hospitals and rehabs. "My we pray over you sir?" "Only if I can lead the prayer.... Hail lord Satan, deliver these people from their delusions. "

To which i responded

Look at it as a sign of care and compassion, but yes, insist on your right to refuse.

Your position will probably only worsen. If you read modern medical literature it is now so recognised that spirituality and belief aid in recovery, that health professionals are being taught to be sensitive to a patients beliefs and to integrate 'spiritual' well being into their practices. With luck that might mean your health professionals recognise your personal brand of belief, but more likely you will be treated with a generalised (often christian) mindset

I thought my point was particularly clear. I think his position vis a vis possibly well meaning religious minded people interfering in his treatment will get worse, but i actually stated that I hope they will recognise his own personal belief system. Furthermore I fully endorsed his right to insist on NO spiritual intervention if that is what he wants.

How did/could you ,possibly read into this response, what you did?

Edited March 16, 2016 by Mr Walker

[Likely Guy]

Heck, I've dabbled a bit with religion but decided that I'm an apatheist (don't give a rat's patoot whether or not God exists) and the last night I spent in hospital was when I was born. I turn 53 and I smoke and drink.

Why would this God guy test a believer so much and give a guy like me a free pass?

[back to earth]

It's fun to tell Christians that they practice magick. Because there is very little difference in petitioning deities. If they're catholic it's a ceremonial magick.

Yes ! The Catholics are the ones doing high theurgic ceremonial magic .... and the local Christian Life Centre members ( 'real' Christians ) are the New Age Wiccans .... 'candle magic' anyone?

[SHaYap]

Oh! I think I get it. (Thanks third eye for the hint)

But, there's still my trauma!!!

best enjoyed with a margarita or just a plain old cuppa java ~

~

~

[danielost]

christ didn't heal anyone who didin't think he could do it.

[eight bits]

christ didn't heal anyone who didin't think he could do it.

Yes, but we can't get hold that mistake against him. In the First Century, understanding of placebo was primitive. He made a good guess that placebo worked because of "faith" that it would work (or faith that the healer knew what he or she was doing, or that he or she had some spirit in a bottle that knew something useful, ... whatever song and dance the patient would buy into... hmm, song and dance, now there's an idea, eh?).

Now that we have grown up a bit as a species, and applied sceintific methods of inquiry to medicine, we win twice:

- First, placebo doesn't actually require faith that it does work. Apparently, the attention and care-giving in and of itself elicits something in the patient.

http://web.as.uky.edu/statistics/users/rayens/A&S100_Resources/PlaceboStudy.pdf

- Second and even better, we have some treatments that are reliably more effective than placebo.

I suppose the bad news for would-be followers of Jesus is that there isn't much room for amateur healers like him to contribute these days. But, what the hey, for two thousand years ago, the guy was awesome.