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Grandpa Greenman

Low down underhanded trick.

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Sherapy

neither did I at first ! :unsure2:

Spoken like a truly humble, compassionate man. Not a braggart bone in your body. Amen to this!

Edited by Sherapy
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Nuclear Wessel

Your position will probably only worsen.

Wow, what an idiotic thing to say. That is truly one of the most stupid things I've ever read you respond with.

If you read modern medical literature it is now so recognised that spirituality and belief aid in recovery,

Firstly, it very likely depends on what, exactly, the patient is recovering from. Secondly, provide some sources for these claims (and I am not talking about the prayer study that has been beaten to death x amount of times--I want fresh, updated material). You're making the claims, provide evidence for these claims... if not then I can dismiss this just as easily and credibly as you have asserted it.

like a doctor operating without the consent of the person, intending good and done because they think they know best, and yet just as wrong. .

Hmm, it depends on the context. If the patient, for example, is noticeably way too ill to make informed consent then the doctor is within their rights to operate out of necessity. I definitely would not liken prayer and operating in the absence of consent to one another, though. That is just a nonsensical comparison, in my opinion.

In closing, I don't think I can offer any level of respect to anybody who posits that another's "position will worsen" and then add that having spirituality/religion can help aid in recovery. It seems that the implication here is that their physical health "position" will probably worsen if they are not spiritual/religious which, honestly, is the type of thinking that I have no respect for WHATSOEVER.

You're a sick man, Walker.

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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Mr Walker

Religion and medicine should never ever mix.

But you think religion and life shouldn't mix :devil:

Religion is a very significant part of humanity and it (or at least our sense of spirituality and faith)affects well being, and mental and physical health. Of COURSE a religious element will influence medicine. Psychiatry hs come right around from its original opinon that religion is a dangerous delusion, to seeing it as an important part of a holistic treatment regime where appropriate; and psychiatrists are taught to work with a patient's beliefs to help heal them.

I was very annoyed because the only time in my life that I was in a hospital for an extended time they had removed bibles from the single rooms in an attempt at political correctness.In other words in an attempt to make non believers happy they made me quite annoyed. I want the best modern medicine in the world AND the powerful healing of belief working for me when I am in danger. I want access to the best medicine, the best surgeon, and the literature of my "faith"

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Mr Walker

Wow, what an idiotic thing to say. That is truly one of the most stupid things I've ever read you respond with.

Firstly, it very likely depends on what, exactly, the patient is recovering from. Secondly, provide some sources for these claims (and I am not talking about the prayer study that has been beaten to death x amount of times--I want fresh, updated material). You're making the claims, provide evidence for these claims... if not then I can dismiss this just as easily and credibly as you have asserted it.

Hmm, it depends on the context. If the patient, for example, is noticeably way too ill to make informed consent then the doctor is within their rights to operate out of necessity. I definitely would not liken prayer and operating in the absence of consent to one another, though. That is just a nonsensical comparison, in my opinion.

In closing, I don't think I can offer any level of respect to anybody who posits that another's "position will worsen" and then add that having spirituality/religion can help aid in recovery. It seems that the implication here is that their physical health "position" will probably worsen if they are not spiritual/religious which, honestly, is the type of thinking that I have no respect for WHATSOEVER.

You're a sick man, Walker.

I gave the sources in another thread . In one of the papers from the american psychiatric association they outline PRECISELY what i just explained. I had just read it and used it as a source and so i commented on it in this thread as well

if you don't want a spiritual element or a religious component in modern western hospital you will increasingly have to ask for it to be excluded, because it is becoming a standard part of medical teaching and practice. This is occurring precisely because its benefits are becoming so well recognised. And not jus tin the west in trying to find the original source i just came on this one from india.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755140/

As pointed out earlier, spiritual values and religious practices are important in the lives of our patients. Many of their problems may centre round existential preoccupations. It is therefore important that we incorporate spirituality and religious practices in our treatment protocol. We must propagate the Bio-psycho-socio-spiritual model in our approach in psychiatry. Harold Koening,[26] in his paper Religion and Mental health: what should psychiatrists do?, has made some suggestions in this area.

here is the one I was reading and some of its comments.

http://www.apa.org/n...irituality.aspx

For many years, psychologists steered clear of religion and spirituality in clinical practice. That was perhaps because there was some history of religious antipathy among early psychology leaders such as Sigmund Freud and B.F. Skinner, or perhaps because psychologists generally lack training in this area. Yet there are several good scientifically based reasons to attend to religion and spirituality in practice. For many people, religion and spirituality are key resources that can facilitate their growth. For others, religion and spirituality may be sources of problems that need to be addressed in the service of their health and well-being. Surveys show that people would like to be able to talk about matters of faith in psychological treatment. Psychologists are ethically obliged to be respectful and attentive to the cultural diversity of their clients, and religion and spirituality contribute to our personal and social identities. Finally, emerging research is showing that spiritually integrated approaches to treatment are as effective as other treatments. There is, in short, good scientifically based reason to be more sensitive to religion and spirituality in clinical practice.

Psychologists are now developing and evaluating a variety of spiritually integrated approaches to treatment, including: forgiveness programs to help divorced people come to terms with bitterness and anger; programs to help survivors of sexual abuse deal with their spiritual struggles; treatments for women with eating disorders that draw on their spiritual resources; and programs that help drug abusers re-connect to their higher selves. These programs are still in their early stages of development, but the preliminary results are promising. For psychologists unfamiliar with work in this area, I encourage them to “put their toes in the water” by simply asking their clients a question or two about their religion and spirituality. Most clients are happy to talk about these issues. By communicating their own interest in religion and spirituality, psychologists open the door to what may become a richer, deeper conversation.

In this vein, some research has shown that mantra-based meditation to a spiritual phrase is more effective in reducing physical pain than meditation to a secular phrase. Similarly, other studies have shown that spiritual forms of support, meaning-making and coping predict health and well-being beyond the effects of secular support, meaning-making and coping. It appears that religion and spirituality cannot be fully reduced to or explained by other psychological and social processes. Belonging to a religious congregation is not equivalent to belonging to the Kiwanis or Rotary Club. What makes religion and spirituality special? Unlike any other dimension of life, religion and spirituality have a unique focus on the domain of the sacred — transcendence, ultimate truth, finitude and deep connectedness. Any psychology that overlooks these parts of life remains incomplete.

Don't shoot me i am just the messenger

So for a person who wants religion and spiritual considerations kept OUT of the treatment or is annoyed by their intrusion, things are getting worse or harder That is what i was referring to about worsening, not that an illness will get worse, just that you will find it harder to have a spiritual element disregarded in your treatment regime. But of course if that is what you want doctors will probably defer to your wishes.

You jumped to a conclusion about what you THOUGHT i was referring to, because of a bias .

Edited by Mr Walker

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third_eye

All this reminded me of an occasion in my younger years when I was paying for sex with a prostitute who was wearing the cross during working hours, those days it was common to have Free Courtesy Bibles in the rooms of the 'Major' Hotel Chains ~

on my way out I picked it up out of curiosity and she said "You should read it, it speaks the truth about god"

I shook my head and paid her and she said "Bless You"

I took back the money and tossed it in the waste paper bin and handed her the Bible ...

~

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back to earth

I was very annoyed because the only time in my life that I was in a hospital for an extended time they had removed bibles from the single rooms in an attempt at political correctness.In other words in an attempt to make non believers happy they made me quite annoyed.

No ....... you were just old and confused again ....

you actually got put into hospital for a Biblioectomy .... thats why it was gone ... sorry, it was the only way they could remove you from it ... it was for your own good of course .

:su

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Grandpa Greenman

Your position will probably only worsen.

It didn't, they said I would never walk again. Though great effort and pain on my part I learned to walk again. I go in and out of rehab every once in a while. My MS is relapsing remitting and occasionally have episodes, put me in the hospital and rehab. Longest I been in is 3 months. I have now set up my house so I don't have to do rehab again, I hope. To say I have no spirituality is a misnomer. I do. My path just isn't Middle Eastern. I don't depend on a god to fix me. It's something I must do with the help of my doctors. Some of the most messed up people I know are very religious. The disease has progressed so they are little more than heads on a pillow. I had one I used to visit and read to. Many times I sat and read the Bible to her. It gave her comfort and that was all that matter to me. In the same situation I would rather someone read me the Bardo Thodol. Despite all her faith she never got any better only worse until she was unable to communicate at all and just laid there day after day in what I would call a living hell.

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Sherapy

It didn't, they said I would never walk again. Though great effort and pain on my part I learned to walk again. I go in and out of rehab every once in a while. My MS is relapsing remitting and occasionally have episodes, put me in the hospital and rehab. Longest I been in is 3 months. I have now set up my house so I don't have to do rehab again, I hope. To say I have no spirituality is a misnomer. I do. My path just isn't Middle Eastern. I don't depend on a god to fix me. It's something I must do with the help of my doctors. Some of the most messed up people I know are very religious. The disease has progressed so they are little more than heads on a pillow. I had one I used to visit and read to. Many times I sat and read the Bible to her. It gave her comfort and that was all that matter to me. In the same situation I would rather someone read me the Bardo Thodol. Despite all her faith she never got any better only worse until she was unable to communicate at all and just laid there day after day in what I would call a living hell.

Well said GG!

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Peter B

...I was very annoyed because the only time in my life that I was in a hospital for an extended time they had removed bibles from the single rooms in an attempt at political correctness.In other words in an attempt to make non believers happy they made me quite annoyed. I want the best modern medicine in the world AND the powerful healing of belief working for me when I am in danger. I want access to the best medicine, the best surgeon, and the literature of my "faith"

Don't forget that when you say "non-believers" you mean "non-believers in Christianity". I rather suspect the Muslim man I shared a ward with a couple of years ago would have been just as annoyed to have access only to a Bible and not a Quran.

So if you want access to the literature of your faith, would it have been so hard to bring your own bible? Remember, it's not the hospital that provides the bibles - that's the Gideons.

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Stubbly_Dooright

quiXilver:

Any chance to slip in some advertising... that's... distasteful, then while being in the guise of helpful, while not actually, being functionally helpful, reduces it to the realm of disturbing.

I recall a series of memes and promises of prayer streaming out on facebook, for a friend's daughter the night before she went in for a major surgery. A long stream of well wishes, promises of prayer and encouragements such as 'jesus will be with you' and various variations on the usual themes. You know, the ones that while being well intentioned, play more as sound bytes, tossed out easily while perusing that never ending buffet of images in the facebook newsfeed.

Then my friend posted his honest and heart felt response which I'll paraphrase here:

"I'd like to take this moment to thank the entire team of physicians and nurses, those scientists and healers who attended decades of schooling to hone crafts and skills, allowing them to attempt the procedure tomorrow that may save my niece's life. May they all get a great night's sleep and be well rested and on top of their game tomorrow. And from the bottom of my heart. Thank you."

It meant so much for me to read that. It echoed how I think and feel when I'm bombarded by well wishes and all the tv messages of prayers being sent to places that have just been devastated by disaster.

It's something very close to what I felt and expressed some years ago, when I went in for a heart ablation to settle an irregular heartbeat issue that had me living for months, not knowing if a blood clot would form and in my oddly working heart and cause a stroke at any moment.

There were five technicians/nurses and the surgeon in all when I arrived in the room for the procedure. And just as they were about to sedate me heavily, I paused and said the following to them.

"I know that Dr. Kim has done this procedure over 600 times already and that just amazes me. I know that for all of you, this is a Tuesday and just, hopefully another day at work for you. But I want you to know that for me. I've been dealing with this potentially deadly issue for months now and my son and my wife have been worried every day and when I come out tonight, I'm going to have a functional heart again. (by now I'm in tears) So, let me express my deep, deep gratitude, for what you all sacrificed all those years in school, saying no to the parties and the invites, to study and learn what you have, so that on this regular for you Tuesday, you are going to help heal my son's, father's heart. My wife's, husband's ticker. You are all amazing!... now dose me and may the Force Be With You~!"

This is beautiful. I'll admit, I often do just that, just well wishes. I just left, on a religious friend's facebook page who is sick today, that I'll send healthy vibes. I like to think I have that power :w00t: but I do feel, that was not much and that I could do more. It's something, when I read your post, that I need to reflect on. :yes:

and then:

So don't take their help. Easy solution.

I think the point is, the idea of them offerning that during a time when someone shouldn't have to deal with it. I agree with him, the idea of taking advantage of someone's illness to do that. I think it would have been more considerate of them to not do that.

I like it, when those who talk about loved ones, that they ask, not just for prayers, but to have those think of them. Or as some would say, what ever you do.

I know, when it comes to the religious, it's all they know and feel it's what they believe. I do know that for some of them, they are being considerate. I also know that for others, GmG, has a point. And why does he have to get combative while his mind is on more important things?

Still Waters:

When I was in hospital the nurses asked me if I wanted a visit from their minister, I declined but there was a lady on our ward who wanted to see him and she had a visit from him every day. It meant a lot to her to see him and I respected that. Even though I had declined I still didn't mind being asked.

I agree. To those, who don't push, just offer, just in case it's wanted. I think they know, that it's still there to offer and they don't judge what someone's belief or lack of one is.

I do still feel it's considerate in that nature.

Sir Wearer of Hats:

The way I see it, God gave talent and competency to the doctors, they need to thank Him for that. You need to thank the doctors for using their talent and competency.

My brother on Chemo was told "maybe you should pray more" by some woman in the hospital cafe.

His response was "maybe you should **** right off".

I would have said to here, "Well, if it didn't work the first time......"

GMG:

I see that as blaming the victim. I've had Pagans do that to me. "You're not honoring you ancestors enough." I guess people can't accept we live in an imperfect world in which illness can just happens. You must have done something wrong to be sick.

Yeah, I find that wrong. It's like they want to wash their hands off of ya. :no:

bte:

so, enter walker stage right ... in a post where the OP decalred what he did and also shared his serious issues

Walker chants in ''oh, but you will get worse if you dont get religious ."

Just what you needed to hear when you where a bit down and needed a sympathetic ear eh ?

Thats our Walker !

stay tune for pages of proof ... just to make you feel better !

Aside from that mess .... care giving is a rapidly growing art here .... rising age of population and youth unemployment, coupled with 'work for your unemployment payment means many people are searching for someone to care for .

At least with money for the motivation, they they dont try to proselytize

... Nor come around and shake their head saying " And if you dont listen to me proselytize and take action on it .... you will only get worse.

And then lecture you on the 'facts' and stats about the truth of what they saying ... while you trapped in bed and in pain .

Sort of like a 'mild mannered' hell and brimstone sermon eh ? Anyway, I hope I offered some relief and you appreciate that you are in a different country and will never have to put up with this attitude outside of the internet .... as I am assuming, there can only be one of these guys ... in real life ... for the whole effin world !

GmG:

B2E :nw: Thank you.
I'm going to assume, that there was a bit of humor here, coming from the ole wise BTE. ;):D

I always feel, that the ole saying of 'Laughter is the best medicine' is kind of maybe sort of true..................... :woot:

The way I see it, well wishers should, impart their well wishers while purposely tripping over a feather on the floor and go 'oof!' so that their intended is curled up in a bit of laughter.

Well, that's my feeling anyways. *shrugs*

Sheri:

Gosh BTE, if only we had more people like you we would have a much better world. You should write a book of all your stories!
I second that. :yes:

Peter B:

Don't forget that when you say "non-believers" you mean "non-believers in Christianity". I rather suspect the Muslim man I shared a ward with a couple of years ago would have been just as annoyed to have access only to a Bible and not a Quran.

So if you want access to the literature of your faith, would it have been so hard to bring your own bible? Remember, it's not the hospital that provides the bibles - that's the Gideons.

I believe that had to be said. Well said! (Did I ever welcome you to UM? Welcome!)

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Still Waters

Your position will probably only worsen.

If you read modern medical literature it is now so recognised that spirituality and belief aid in recovery, that health professionals are being taught to be sensitive to a patients beliefs and to integrate 'spiritual' well being into their practices.

That's all well and good, but it does not mean that if a patient doesn't hold certain beliefs their health will worsen, like you stated in your above post.

With luck that might mean your health professionals recognise your personal brand of belief, but more likely you will be treated with a generalised (often christian) mindset

I would think their medical skills were more important. I couldn't care less what religion the medical team were who treated me. When I had surgery all that mattered was that they knew what they were doing.

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JVG

That's all well and good, but it does not mean that if a patient doesn't hold certain beliefs their health will worsen, like you stated in your above post.

I would think their medical skills were more important. I couldn't care less what religion the medical team were who treated me. When I had surgery all that mattered was that they knew what they were doing.

Amen....

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back to earth

Don't forget that when you say "non-believers" you mean "non-believers in Christianity". I rather suspect the Muslim man I shared a ward with a couple of years ago would have been just as annoyed to have access only to a Bible and not a Quran.

So if you want access to the literature of your faith, would it have been so hard to bring your own bible? Remember, it's not the hospital that provides the bibles - that's the Gideons.

he sounds like one of these people he doesnt like ... that expect 'government payments' to be handed out to him.

Its actually worse ! Walker claims he takes a bit of this religion and a bit of that .

God damn hospital ... didnt fit his room out with

A Bible

The Zend Avesta

The Talmud

The Koran

The Buddhist Sutras

.How do they expect him to recover without his medicine books !

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Stubbly_Dooright

he sounds like one of these people he doesnt like ... that expect 'government payments' to be handed out to him.

Its actually worse ! Walker claims he takes a bit of this religion and a bit of that .

God damn hospital ... didnt fit his room out with

A Bible

The Zend Avesta

The Talmud

The Koran

The Buddhist Sutras

.How do they expect him to recover without his medicine books !

Hey, don't forget Tarot cards!!! Complete with booklet and a nice damn velvet cloth!!!! :w00t:

Actually, I would prefer a Carol Burnett auto-biography and some royal historical fiction. And then keep the tv channel on Comedy Central. :yes: . or HGTV ............. gooooooo Scott brothers!!!

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back to earth

Dont know why he didnt just remote view one :whistle:

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Stubbly_Dooright

Dont know why he didnt just remote view one :whistle:

Can I remote view the Scott brothers?!?!?!

No?!

Carol Burnett?!

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Stubbly_Dooright

Going back to GmG's thought here, if one is talking about low handed trick, what about people of the prosetylizing sort, who go into stores and stuff their literature into products? I mean, that's all sorts of wrong.

I think, when one is in the hospital, the frame of mind is just as valuable in the healing process, as with the body, so the staff should be considerate to the belief or lack of belief system of the patient.

I'm thinking or asking, is there anyway for you to complain or get someone else into this?

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simplybill

What do we have to complain about, really.

Go back and re-read the posts on this thread; there are countries where every single poster on here would be tracked down and beheaded. Beheaded. Think about that. We're complaining because someone offers to pray for us? Because someone wants to proselytize?

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back to earth

sure you can complain ... and then ?

" Nurse ! I need the bed pan quickly ! ........ Nurse ??? "

" Just a moment please , we are very understaffed and busy .... you goddamned atheist ! "

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back to earth

What do we have to complain about, really.

Go back and re-read the posts on this thread; there are countries where every single poster on here would be tracked down and beheaded. Beheaded. Think about that. We're complaining because someone offers to pray for us? Because someone wants to proselytize?

Yes ... we do things like that in the 'free world' ... or are you saying we should shut up because other countries are not as free ? .. and shut up about this trivial complaint, and that not so trivial complaint .

Maybe even implement martial law because people get beheaded in other countries ... maybe spy on you because ....

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Stubbly_Dooright

What do we have to complain about, really.

Go back and re-read the posts on this thread; there are countries where every single poster on here would be tracked down and beheaded. Beheaded. Think about that. We're complaining because someone offers to pray for us? Because someone wants to proselytize?

You see, I find this as some form of distraction here. I have observed, that when some people come in contact with others not their belief system, it's suddenly a horrifying thing. When that type of bias and prosetylizing behavior is complained about, ( and complained about understandingly ) their priorities is all of a sudden wrong, according to the first people.

And this is being done in a hospital, where the wellbeing of the mind is just as much in need of healing and peace for recovery. Prosetylizing is very much just as damaging. Are you saying a believer shouldn't complain about an Atheist there telling to stop believing?

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back to earth

shut up and eat your raw broccoli ... dont you realise kids in other countries are starving .

but but .... its limp and has mold growing on it and some sort of ...

I said eat your nice fresh broccoli , cant you even listen !

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Stubbly_Dooright

shut up and eat your raw broccoli ... dont you realise kids in other countries are starving .

but but .... its limp and has mold growing on it and some sort of ...

I said eat your nice fresh broccoli , cant you even listen !

You see! You see! It's moments like these that gives me never ending trauma!!! :o
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back to earth

"It will only get worse."

mean-devil-smiley-emoticon.gif

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GoldenWolf

shut up and eat your raw broccoli ... dont you realise kids in other countries are starving .

but but .... its limp and has mold growing on it and some sort of ...

I said eat your nice fresh broccoli , cant you even listen !

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