Low down underhanded trick.

[Philangeli]

Yes, but we can't get hold that mistake against him. In the First Century, understanding of placebo was primitive. He made a good guess that placebo worked because of "faith" that it would work (or faith that the healer knew what he or she was doing, or that he or she had some spirit in a bottle that knew something useful, ... whatever song and dance the patient would buy into... hmm, song and dance, now there's an idea, eh?).

Now that we have grown up a bit as a species, and applied sceintific methods of inquiry to medicine, we win twice:

- First, placebo doesn't actually require faith that it does work. Apparently, the attention and care-giving in and of itself elicits something in the patient.

http://web.as.uky.ed...laceboStudy.pdf

- Second and even better, we have some treatments that are reliably more effective than placebo.

I suppose the bad news for would-be followers of Jesus is that there isn't much room for amateur healers like him to contribute these days. But, what the hey, for two thousand years ago, the guy was awesome.

I don't think all of Christ's attributed miracles can be explained away by the placebo effect, for example:

Healing of royal official's son. John 4:46-54.

Healing of demon possessed man. Mark 1:21-28.

Healing of Simon Peter's mother-in-law. Matthew 8:14-15.

Raising a widow's son. Luke 7:11-17.

Restoring a severed ear. Luke 22:45-54.

How does the placebo effect work on someone who is already dead?

Edited March 16, 2016 by Philangeli

[Grandpa Greenman]

See my other posts on this GMG complained about the intervention of faith based people in his treatment. I pointed out that, in reality, this will get worse due to the growing recognition of spirituality and belief in healing Hopefully health practitioners will respect GMG beliefs and work with him to utilise his individual faith to best effect or simply not invoke any spiritual dimension to his treatment.

i really can't comprehend how and why people misread such clear and simple statements from me. I think it is a bias based on what they THINK i am thinking, or expect me to say.

GMG posted this

I'm on a page for the chronically ill that is set up for the non religious support. The administrator says she is coming up with more and more wanting to join, when she checks them out only to find their pages covered with jeSUS memes. I am tired of people taking advantage of my infirmities to proselytize their religion. They have done it in stores, on the street, and the most underhanded place is hospitals and rehabs. "My we pray over you sir?" "Only if I can lead the prayer.... Hail lord Satan, deliver these people from their delusions. "

To which i responded

Look at it as a sign of care and compassion, but yes, insist on your right to refuse.

Your position will probably only worsen. If you read modern medical literature it is now so recognised that spirituality and belief aid in recovery, that health professionals are being taught to be sensitive to a patients beliefs and to integrate 'spiritual' well being into their practices. With luck that might mean your health professionals recognise your personal brand of belief, but more likely you will be treated with a generalised (often christian) mindset

I thought my point was particularly clear. I think his position vis a vis possibly well meaning religious minded people interfering in his treatment will get worse, but i actually stated that I hope they will recognise his own personal belief system. Furthermore I fully endorsed his right to insist on NO spiritual intervention if that is what he wants.

How did/could you ,possibly read into this response, what you did?

Funny most everyone else read it the same way, Walker. I have known you on this site for many, many years. I have been tolerant of a lot of your non sense out of respect for your age. You should make an appointment with a neurologist, dementia seems to be creeping in.

Edited March 16, 2016 by GreenmansGod

[Stubbly_Dooright]

best enjoyed with a margarita or just a plain old cuppa java ~

~

~

How about both at the same time?!!?!??!

Yes, but we can't get hold that mistake against him. In the First Century, understanding of placebo was primitive. He made a good guess that placebo worked because of "faith" that it would work (or faith that the healer knew what he or she was doing, or that he or she had some spirit in a bottle that knew something useful, ... whatever song and dance the patient would buy into... hmm, song and dance, now there's an idea, eh?).

Now that we have grown up a bit as a species, and applied sceintific methods of inquiry to medicine, we win twice:

- First, placebo doesn't actually require faith that it does work. Apparently, the attention and care-giving in and of itself elicits something in the patient.

http://web.as.uky.ed...laceboStudy.pdf

- Second and even better, we have some treatments that are reliably more effective than placebo.

I suppose the bad news for would-be followers of Jesus is that there isn't much room for amateur healers like him to contribute these days. But, what the hey, for two thousand years ago, the guy was awesome.

Well, this response hit the spot!!!!

I don't think all of Christ's attributed miracles can be explained away by the placebo effect, for example:

Healing of royal official's son. John 4:46-54.

Healing of demon possessed man. Mark 1:21-28.

Healing of Simon Peter's mother-in-law. Matthew 8:14-15.

Raising a widow's son. Luke 7:11-17.

Restoring a severed ear. Luke 22:45-54.

How does the placebo effect work on someone who is already dead?

Are there any examples of this, outside of the bible?

Funny most everyone else read it the same way, Walker. I have known you on this site for many, many years. I have been tolerant of a lot of your non sense out of respect for your age. You should make an appointment with a neurologist, dementia seems to be creeping in.

I may have to channel Tommy Flanigan again! Edited March 16, 2016 by TheMustardLady

[eight bits]

Phil

Fevers of unspecified origin and non-specific mental illness (possession by demons) would be just what I'd expect as presenting complaints where placebo might be reported to work.

How does the placebo effect work on someone who is already dead?

It doesn't. Then again, nothing else does, either, so I'd conclude that the genetleman wasn't dead. Not surprising, since premature diagnosis of death occurs even today. Among Jews of the time and place, the custom was same-day burial. Same day as what? Same day as somebody thinks the person is dead. Somebody would be who? The attending physician, the medical examiner, a coroner's jury, a pathologist, ...? No, whoever thinks the person is dead. In this case, probably his mother.

So you're right. It isn't all placebo. Some of it is just medical innocence.

Oh, the severed ear. Luke is the only canonical source that reports a healing, with no follow-up exam. John, the Gospel known for its miracles, omits this one. The ear comes off, end of story. The other synoptics agree with John.

[barbco196]

Heck, I've dabbled a bit with religion but decided that I'm an apatheist (don't give a rat's patoot whether or not God exists) and the last night I spent in hospital was when I was born. I turn 53 and I smoke and drink.

Why would this God guy test a believer so much and give a guy like me a free pass?

God GUY? Free pass?

[barbco196]

Yes ! The Catholics are the ones doing high theurgic ceremonial magic .... and the local Christian Life Centre members ( 'real' Christians ) are the New Age Wiccans .... 'candle magic' anyone?

Let's hope they're working on a spell for respect for you guys...come on.

[GoldenWolf]

Let's hope they're working on a spell for respect for you guys...come on.

Respect???? They are the ones thinking they are doing magical rituals (or are) to keep their god and themselves in power, money and sex.

Really, who deserves respect?

[barbco196]

Respect???? They are the ones thinking they are doing magical rituals (or are) to keep their god and themselves in power, money and sex.

Really, who deserves respect?

Who is 'they'?! I believe in God and clearly, $, sex, and power must have been left out of my will! EVERY person deserves respect.

[GoldenWolf]

Who is 'they'?! I believe in God and clearly, $, sex, and power must have been left out of my will! EVERY person deserves respect.

Respect and honor is something earned, not commanded. One reason this world is so ****ed up, dishonorable people commanding respect. Not everyone deserves it.

[barbco196]

Respect and honor is something earned, not commanded. One reason this world is so ****ed up, dishonorable people commanding respect. Not everyone deserves it.

A very wise man once said, "Don't do what you hate."

[Grandpa Greenman]

One thing I notice a long time ago, when I was young and in college was the cults would show up on campus at exam time. They timed it for a reason. Students were stress out and lack sleep and their judgement was off. It made them easy marks for conversion. I found it very distasteful then and still do. When mainstream religions do it, it is no less distasteful.

[+Liquid Gardens]

EVERY person deserves respect.

I think you're essentially just generalizing the word 'respect' to meaninglessness. How much and what kind of respect do you have for child molesters? Is it the same, in any significant way, as the respect you have for your friends and family? 'Respect' is not binary.

A very wise man once said, "Don't do what you hate."

I don't hate disrespect when it is earned. Just to take one of the only times when I think Jesus was kind of a turd, how much respect did Jesus show the moneychangers at the temple when he attacked them?

[barbco196]

I think you're essentially just generalizing the word 'respect' to meaninglessness. How much and what kind of respect do you have for child molesters? Is it the same, in any significant way, as the respect you have for your friends and family? 'Respect' is not binary.

I don't hate disrespect when it is earned. Just to take one of the only times when I think Jesus was kind of a turd, how much respect did Jesus show the moneychangers at the temple when he attacked them?

He attacked them? When you say 'them', you denote a person/s. That is not what happened. When I say EVERY person deserves respect. That is precisely what I mean. You can differ in your opinion.

[Vlawde]

I think it's best to give someone the benefit of the doubt when you first meet and treat them respectfully. If they give you reason to not respect them, fine. But usually respect begets respect

[simplybill]

....how much respect did Jesus show the moneychangers at the temple when he attacked them?

Liquid Gardens -

The Temple priests and the money changers were in on a scheme to "fleece the flock". Pilgrims would arrive at the Temple to worship and to give offerings of money (or animals), but they were required to exchange their regional moneys for specially-minted Temple coins that were exchanged at exorbitant rates. The clergy and the businessmen had literally turned the Temple into a "den of thieves".

Jesus is referred to as both "The Lamb of God" and "The Lion of Judah". The Temple incident demonstrates his "Lion" characteristics, wherein He took action to defend His followers, and to discipline the false clergy that were in charge of the Temple.

Edited March 16, 2016 by simplybill

[GoldenWolf]

A very wise man once said, "Don't do what you hate."

That supposed wise man also said, I have come to bring fire to the earth, I have come to bring division not peace, a man's foes shall be those of his own house, they must hate their own parents more than me, they must deny themselves and take up their cross, heaven and earth shall pass away but not my words.

The guy is a psychopath, not wise.

Mark 10:34

They will mock him, spit on him, flog him with a whip, and kill him, but after three days he will rise again."

[+Liquid Gardens]

The Temple priests and the money changers were in on a scheme to "fleece the flock". Pilgrims would arrive at the Temple to worship and to give offerings of money (or animals), but they were required to exchange their regional moneys for specially-minted Temple coins that were exchanged at exorbitant rates. The clergy and the businessmen had literally turned the Temple into a "den of thieves".

Err, so? Sounds like they are sinners then, just like everyone else. This 'scheme' is neither jot nor tittle in degree to other wrongs that were also occurring, to which I thought he instead emphasized the value of suffering and faith. How does this fashioning a whip to drive out 'thieves' reconcile with 'turning the other cheek'? I'm fine if we want to say Jesus' rules are for Christians but not for himself, after all God the Father is excluded from his Commandments, but then we should probably also temper the idea of leading a 'Christ-like' life; this is the Son of God throwing a temper tantrum.

Jesus is referred to as both "The Lamb of God" and "The Lion of Judah". The Temple incident demonstrates his "Lion" characteristics, wherein He took action to defend His followers, and to discipline the false clergy that were in charge of the Temple.

I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that he and his followers are not of this world and this is not his nor their kingdom. Isn't money the primo example of something that is 'worldly'? He instructs others to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's in other situations and seems to be able to control himself. This moneychanger episode is not his best nor most consistent moment.

[GoldenWolf]

I think you're essentially just generalizing the word 'respect' to meaninglessness. How much and what kind of respect do you have for child molesters? Is it the same, in any significant way, as the respect you have for your friends and family? 'Respect' is not binary.

They don't understand this universal concept (which I am pretty sure was taken from a non-religious person)

Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

[+Liquid Gardens]

He attacked them? When you say 'them', you denote a person/s. That is not what happened.

John 2:14-15:

And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

Sounds a lot like an attack to me. Just going by what the Bible says, but you won't get an argument from me that this, nor anything really in that book, actually happened.

When I say EVERY person deserves respect. That is precisely what I mean. You can differ in your opinion.

Can't differ in opinion if you won't provide any kind of definition of 'respect'. Again, in what way do you respect child molesters?

Edited March 16, 2016 by Liquid Gardens

[barbco196]

John 2:14-15:

And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

Sounds a lot like an attack to me. Just going by what the Bible says, but you won't get an argument from me that this, nor anything really in that book, actually happened.

Can't differ in opinion if you won't provide any kind of definition of 'respect'. Again, in what way do you respect child molesters?

Jesus hated their behavior, not 'them'. Overturning tables and driving people out does not mean he attacked 'them'. He demonstrated his authority when it was necessary. I show every person respect because I don't judge. It doesn't mean I condone their behavior. I know that people who commit those types of heinous crimes are broken. THEY were likely abused in some way. It's a sad, vicious cycle.

[GoldenWolf]

Jesus hated their behavior, not 'them'. Overturning tables and driving people out does not mean he attacked 'them'. He demonstrated his authority when it was necessary. I show every person respect because I don't judge. It doesn't mean I condone their behavior. I know that people who commit those types of heinous crimes are broken. THEY were likely abused in some way. It's a sad, vicious cycle.

You know who turns tables over and drives people away? A raving drunk.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

One thing I notice a long time ago, when I was young and in college was the cults would show up on campus at exam time. They timed it for a reason. Students were stress out and lack sleep and their judgement was off. It made them easy marks for conversion. I found it very distasteful then and still do. When mainstream religions do it, it is no less distasteful.

Or use some trendy or takes something to use to convert. Like the bill board sayings outside their churches, or one time I waited on a guy, who was dispensing 'get into heaven' coupons. Seriously, I find that kind of insulting, leading others to believe it's something it's not.

[GoldenWolf]

God the Father is excluded from his Commandments, but then we should probably also temper the idea of leading a 'Christ-like' life; this is the Son of God throwing a temper tantrum.

So what we have is a world of lawlessness.

[danielost]

Or use some trendy or takes something to use to convert. Like the bill board sayings outside their churches, or one time I waited on a guy, who was dispensing 'get into heaven' coupons. Seriously, I find that kind of insulting, leading others to believe it's something it's not.

i agree with you on this. you can't buy your way into heaven. so coupons would be worthless.

[simplybill]

Err, so? Sounds like they are sinners then, just like everyone else. This 'scheme' is neither jot nor tittle in degree to other wrongs that were also occurring, to which I thought he instead emphasized the value of suffering and faith. How does this fashioning a whip to drive out 'thieves' reconcile with 'turning the other cheek'? I'm fine if we want to say Jesus' rules are for Christians but not for himself, after all God the Father is excluded from his Commandments, but then we should probably also temper the idea of leading a 'Christ-like' life; this is the Son of God throwing a temper tantrum.

I think this is a difference in worldview, rather than a difference in theology. Personally, I admire someone who sees an egregious wrong and takes firm action to make it right. There are egregious financial wrongs happening in the Church today that should have been addressed years ago. The perpetrator often isn't held accountable until his deeds become so flagrant that Law Enforcement gets involved.

Sexual abuse is a more extreme example, and personally I think extreme measures taken at the first sign of abuse would have ended the problem 50 years ago. Tarring-and-feathering is no longer acceptable (unfortunately), but immediately involving the police after the first sign of abuse would have sent a message to all the other pedophiles lined up to become clergymen to take advantage of the easy pickin's.

To be honest, I think Jesus was remarkably mild in his treatment of the criminals running the Temple. There's no mention that Jesus actually made contact with that whip, but the mere sight of an angry man with a whip, overturning furniture and chasing people, would have caused heart failure in any criminal coward. I'm sure the pilgrims appreciated Him standing up to the bullies.

Edited March 16, 2016 by simplybill