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Still Waters

Was Jesus really nailed to the cross?

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freetoroam

If you say so .

In any case ... if you had collected all those wooden pieces ( 'relics' ) from the real and original cross .... you would have been able to build Noah's Ark :-*

Done:

Noahs_Ark_Cross.jpg

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Stubbly_Dooright
Doug1o29, on 19 March 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

God made mankind thick-skulled so he wouldn't pick up on hints very easily, then only makes himself known with hints? What kind of foresight is that? Seems a better idea is to hit us over the head with the evidence - that way he might get our attention.

Doug

Look at it like this...say you're sitting in a class listening to your i-pod. You're distracted by everything that's going on around you. You can't typically hear what your teacher is saying, because you're not listening, and you're listening to something else. You may not even care to listen to your teacher because the subject matter is uninteresting to you. As the student, it's completely up to you whether you want pass the class, or not. If you're close to the teacher, sitting in the front, you'll have a better chance at hearing what the teacher is saying. Same thing applies to being spiritually close to God.

Is it? Sounds complicated. Why is that? But here's the thing, if you are student, it is in the best interested to pay attention in class. If the teacher caught you, you were punished or something in some way? The idea goes back to you better pay attention in class.

Now, yes, my belief has a feeling that yeah, maybe there's hints or ideas coming through certain ways, but what's part of my belief is more complicated. Plus, one doesn't have to get it to get to another level or something. Even the hint that that is normal, is part of that. My belief sounds more understandable ( well at least to me ) where you aren't punished for eternity if you didn't get a hint or something, which should have been an all out command totally understandable to all.

(Edit: to point out, I'm not saying my belief is better than yours, I'm just saying that even though I was pointing out an inconsistency of something, it would be understandable to point out I have a bit of that analogy in my belief. :o ) But the main point was, if one is going to use a classroom analogy, know what the outcome of a realistic classroom situation )

I'm pretty sure that God has already done that. 10,000 years of recorded human history have shown us what works and what doesn't. So far, Judeo-Christian ideology, when held accountable to its own principles, has proven to be the path most likely to lead to greater freedom and more stable governments. It has to be maintained diligently, or the inevitable corruption begins. How many hundreds of years did it take for Western Civilization to finally wipe out Western-style slavery? And now, in our post-Judeo/Christian society, we're gradually replacing slave labor with sex slavery and sex trafficking. That's just one example. The farther we drift, the worse it becomes. In my opinion, if God has to hit us over the head any harder than that, we'll all have flat heads.

I'm not seeing the connection to that. How did they get the hints to improve themselves? And why did it take so long? Frankly, if one needs to improve themselves, according to their creators, wouldn't the creators make it easier and quicker?

Another thing though, if we're bringing up slavery, wasn't slavery in the bible and thus slavery was condoned?

And famous and popular people always get a 'mythological framework' set up around them ... even when still alive - right now, today . Or when they are dead, we might even insist they are not ....

... hang on to your hat before you enter into this strange realm of the internet ; http://hyperdiscordi...eart_elvis.html

Oh, I hear you. I feel a main part of society did that with Micheal Jackson. For about twenty years til his death, so much of society was questioning him and accusing him of various sort of things, and a lot of his attention from them, was pretty much sarcastic and ill will. I really felt he needed defending, and even near the end, I wondered at the accusations and if they were real.

I will never forget, the day before his death in June of 2009, the day before, some tv media program was talking about seeing him run down, looking like someone out of their luck and using some picture that they thought proved their point. The next day, he died, and all of a sudden so many mourners were bemoaning his death, and what I got of what I did see of his funeral, were people crying over his casket. ( where were they when he was being forgotten and accused?)

I myself, feel I'm as well to blame, for my thoughts later on in his life, so I hesitated on showing any form of visual grief, ( but I did, inside. I was sad ) But I'm disgusted at the ratio of played up grief after his death, when there was hardly any caring from before. I commend his die hard fans for sticking with him. He is a god now, it seems, and funny how pictures and media bits show him from his Thriller days, and not the decade before his death. ( like someone said, death is a good career move :rolleyes: )

Edited by TheMustardLady
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Stubbly_Dooright

The Romans would have extensively re-cycled crosses, the timber consumption from single usage would have denuded the landscape of trees, they were such prolific killers of those who bucked the system.

And where did you get this knowledge? Not that I don't think this is true. ( in fact, maybe that is why, according that episode of Expedition: Unknown, they have to find it any many different places........ I digress ) but I like to know how the source, you got the knowledge from, came to that.

No inconsistences in the bible? or contradictions?

http://atheism.about...adictionserror/

http://infidels.org/...ty/errancy.html

https://en.wikipedia...es_in_the_Bible

I am not saying read the links, just saying its pretty debatable stuff.

As a non religious person, I do not follow a god to decide what suits my beliefs, therefore, what I read pops out as inconsistences and contradictions.

My conclusions are not based on what I WANT to belief, they are based on what is written.

I hear you. Now, I do like to think, that many believers, ( and I'm also saying this with believers and their varying holy books and such, not just Christians and the bible ) have an objective mind and read what they see.

But, I often like to ( when I had Tarot Cards and use to use them constantly ) to interpret what I could, and 'feel' from the cards. ( then again, it's advised to do that ) But maybe, to interpreted in an objective sense is what is advised to interpreted in a subjective sense. *shrug* ( and I have been told, by a friend who owned a whole lot more Tarot cards, and did it more, that I was doing it wrong. :o ) I think she could have been right.

Though, I think the point here is, from what I understand, there are inconsistencies in the bible, as I see here said in various posters here in this thread. I have seen other threads showing how there are inconsistencies. How can anyone say there are not?

It would make for a beautiful love story... :wub: Mary saves his life and they make a new life else where. Classic romance, happy ending, works for me.

What?! someone didn't do that already??
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danielost

If you say so .

In any case ... if you had collected all those wooden pieces ( 'relics' ) from the real and original cross .... you would have been able to build Noah's Ark :-*

how small do you think Noah's ark was. or how big do you think the cross was. jesus dragged the cross through the streets. he had to have help doing so.

yes i say so. the cross was just the means of exacution at that time. just, as a syringe is today

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freetoroam

What?! someone didn't do that already??

Ofcourse they did, but keeping it in line with the inconsistences of the bible, we want to add some and change a few bits. :tu:

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fullywired

I read this on a Christian Site and I thought it could possibly shed a little light on some of the different ideas of the crucifixion

Christian .Blog.com

by Art Schnattely

Construction of the Cross - Roman EngineeringArt Schnatterly

In all probability, these depictions are inaccurate. The Roman army, charged with conducting the inhumane torture and executions via crucifixion, were experts at efficiency. They had refined this grizzly process to a fine art. The Romans wanted to exert the absolute maximum of pain and torture to the "criminal" with minimum effort on their part.

Prisoners did not carry the entire cross to their executions. Instead, they carried only the cross-piece, known as a patibulum. The patibulum was placed across the shoulders with the arms tied in place. Nails, when used, were placed through the wrists at the place of the execution. The nails were not intended to support the prisoner as much as they were to inflict maximum pain. The nails severed nerves in the wrists, one of the greatest sources of pain a man can experience.

The vertical part of the cross, known as the stipe, was permanently placed at the site of executions. It was much more efficient than digging a hole and inserting the stipe each time someone was to be crucified. Roman efficiency!

The stipe was not particularly tall, just high enough to make sure that the prisoner's feet would not touch the ground when the patibulum was installed. The Romans didn't want to exert too much effort lifting the palibulum, with prisoner attached, up to the top of the stipe. The reason hyssop was offered to Jesus on a stick wasn't because the prisoner was so high, it was to prevent the Roman soldier's fingers being bitten off.

The feet were tied to the stipe so that the prisoner could "lift" himself up and keep himself from suffocating too soon. This would prolong the suffering and maximize the pain. A prisoner could live as long as a week if allowed by the executioners. When nails were used, again it was to sever nerves and maximize pain rather than to support the prisoner.

The Romans who carried out the crucifixion of Jesus were members of the 10th Legion, mercenaries known for their brutality. This was routine duty for the executioners. To them, Jesus was just one more criminal to be killed with maximum pain, an example to others who defied Roman power. Just another day's gruesome work.

.

.fullywired

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freetoroam
Edited by freetoroam
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Grandpa Greenman

how small do you think Noah's ark was. or how big do you think the cross was. jesus dragged the cross through the streets. he had to have help doing so.

yes i say so. the cross was just the means of exacution at that time. just, as a syringe is today

bridge-for-sale-320x220.png

Sorry couldn't help myself, Dan, you walked into that one. :D

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barbco196

No inconsistences in the bible? or contradictions?

http://atheism.about...adictionserror/

http://infidels.org/...ty/errancy.html

https://en.wikipedia...es_in_the_Bible

I am not saying read the links, just saying its pretty debatable stuff.

As a non religious person, I do not follow a god to decide what suits my beliefs, therefore, what I read pops out as inconsistences and contradictions.

My conclusions are not based on what I WANT to belief, they are based on what is written.

I just clicked on the first link because I like to learn. The first link and the first few 'inconsistences' are below:

the listed biblical inconsistencies could be taken as biblical contradictions.

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.

GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.

GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.

GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.

GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

Now, just by reading that, I will tell you that person didn't understand The Book of Genesis. ALL of those things were first created in heaven, in spirit BEFORE they took on a material existence. Eden was a perfect place where God first created all of these things. It wasn't until man sinned that they covered themselves and took on human form.

As for the light first created...that was not the sun.

Edited by barbco196

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barbco196

It would make for a beautiful love story... :wub: Mary saves his life and they make a new life else where. Classic romance, happy ending, works for me.

This isn't new news. There are many people that believe Jesus and Mary had a child somewhere in France and his bloodline is carried on today. There were papyrus fragments found and were translated. In them, they claim Jesus referred to Mary as his wife.

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simplybill

How did they get the hints to improve themselves? And why did it take so long? Frankly, if one needs to improve themselves, according to their creators, wouldn't the creators make it easier and quicker?

Another thing though, if we're bringing up slavery, wasn't slavery in the bible and thus slavery was condoned?

TML - Those questions are related to one another when viewed from a "Chosen People" perspective. Abraham and his descendants were the recipients of "a better way" (The Ten Commandments and Mosaic Law or the 'Law of Moses'). They were expected to model those laws to the outside world as a better way of life than the barbaric practices of the day. The Old Testament records both the benefits of following God and the results of straying back into barbarism. Each time the Hebrews strayed, God sent someone to warn them to return to the "better way", or face the consequences. Those messengers (or 'Prophets') were often murdered, but occasionally their warnings were heeded and the people repented of their bad behavior. (side note: The practice of public execution-by-stoning sounds horribly barbaric to our modern ears, though it would probably have been considered humane in context of other forms of capital punishment during that era. Cruxifixion, for example, was devised to maximize pain and humiliation for days. With stoning, unconsciousness would have occurred within a very short time, perhaps only a few seconds.)

Concerning slavery: Hebrew slavery was completely different from Egyptian- or American-style slavery. Under Mosaic Law, slavery was similar to indentured servitude, where a person was "in bondage" to another person until a debt was repaid. The Mosaic Law was very specific about the length of time a slave could be held: a maximum of seven years, after which the remaining debt was forgiven.

Concerning the crucifixion of Jesus: The corrupt Hebrew leaders of the time purposely brought Jesus to a Roman court and falsely accused him of being an enemy-of-the-state, knowing the Romans would punish (with cruxifixion) anyone who was suspected of insurrection. For example, Jesus was crucified along with two thieves. Under Mosaic Law, the punishment for theft was seven-fold repayment of the value of the stolen item, not execution. The Pharisees were bound by a principle of Mosaic Law: "the punishment should not exceed the crime" (commonly referred to as "An eye for an eye"). Thus, going contrary to their own established principles, they made their false accusations against Jesus to a Roman magistrate. (This also served as a warning to anyone else who dared to oppose the Pharisees and their cult-like hold on the Jewish nation.)

Edited to add: Wikipedia has a great explanation of the concept of "a better way":

Halakha guides not only religious practices and beliefs, but numerous aspects of day-to-day life. Halakha is often translated as "Jewish Law", although a more literal translation might be "the way to behave" or "the way of walking". The word derives from the root that means to behave (also to go or to walk).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha

simplybill

Edited by simplybill
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GoldenWolf

This isn't new news. There are many people that believe Jesus and Mary had a child somewhere in France and his bloodline is carried on today. There were papyrus fragments found and were translated. In them, they claim Jesus referred to Mary as his wife.

I'm sure they would be comparable to this t.v. show:

19_Kids_and_Counting_logo.jpg

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barbco196

I'm sure they would be comparable to this t.v. show:

19_Kids_and_Counting_logo.jpg

The Jesus I know is smarter than that.

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barbco196

TML - Those questions are related to one another when viewed from a "Chosen People" perspective. Abraham and his descendants were the recipients of "a better way" (The Ten Commandments and Mosaic Law or the 'Law of Moses'). They were expected to model those laws to the outside world as a better way of life than the barbaric practices of the day. The Old Testament records both the benefits of following God and the results of straying back into barbarism. Each time they strayed, God sent someone to warn them to return to the "better way", or face the consequences. Those messengers (or 'Prophets') were often murdered, but occasionally their warnings were heeded and the people repented of their bad behavior. (side note: The practice of public execution-by-stoning sounds horribly barbaric to our modern ears, though it would probably have been considered humane in context of other forms of capital punishment during that era. Cruxifixion, for example, was devised to maximize pain and humiliation for days. With stoning, unconsciousness would have occurred within a very short time, perhaps only a few seconds.)

Concerning slavery: Hebrew slavery was completely different from Egyptian- or American-style slavery. Under Mosaic Law, slavery was similar to indentured servitude, where a person was "in bondage" to another person until a debt was repaid. The Mosaic Law was very specific about the length of time a slave could be held: a maximum of seven years, after which the remaining debt was forgiven.

Concerning the crucifixion of Jesus: The corrupt Hebrew leaders of the time purposely brought Jesus to a Roman court and falsely accused him of being an enemy-of-the-state, knowing the Romans would punish (with cruxifixion) anyone who was suspected of insurrection. As mentioned earlier, Jesus was crucified along with two thieves. Under Mosaic Law, the punishment for theft was seven-fold repayment of the value of the stolen item, not execution. The Pharisees were bound by a principle of Mosaic Law: "the punishment should not exceed the crime" (commonly referred to as "An eye for an eye"). Thus, going contrary to their own established principles, they made their false accusations to a Roman magistrate. (This also served as a warning to anyone else who dared to oppose the Pharisees and their cult-like hold on the Jewish nation.)

simplybill

Maximum time a slave could be held: 7 years. Had to point out the correlation between that and the 7 year itch experienced in marriage.

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simplybill

Maximum time a slave could be held: 7 years. Had to point out the correlation between that and the 7 year itch experienced in marriage.

Hmm...interesting perspective...LoL

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barbco196

Hmm...interesting perspective...LoL

Probably why I've never married.

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Hammerclaw

There are two different accounts of the creation of man and woman, one in chapter 1 of Genesis where man and woman are created at the same time, on the sixth day, and the more commonly remembered Adam's rib version in Chapter 2, after the seventh day. Obviously, Genesis is a composite document.

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back to earth

how small do you think Noah's ark was. or how big do you think the cross was. jesus dragged the cross through the streets. he had to have help doing so.

yes i say so. the cross was just the means of exacution at that time. just, as a syringe is today

Yeah .... except for one tiny detail ..... the Romans didnt stick people up on crosses like that .

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freetoroam

I just clicked on the first link because I like to learn. The first link and the first few 'inconsistences' are below:

the listed biblical inconsistencies could be taken as biblical contradictions.

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.

GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.

GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.

GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.

GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

Now, just by reading that, I will tell you that person didn't understand The Book of Genesis. ALL of those things were first created in heaven, in spirit BEFORE they took on a material existence. Eden was a perfect place where God first created all of these things. It wasn't until man sinned that they covered themselves and took on human form.

As for the light first created...that was not the sun.

So not the sun? any indication as to where the light on Earth comes from?

So before man sinned, he was not human??? so what terminology does "man" come under if not a human?

whats your take on dinosaurs and evolution?

Edited by freetoroam
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Stubbly_Dooright

Ofcourse they did, but keeping it in line with the inconsistences of the bible, we want to add some and change a few bits. :tu:

;) I'm a bookseller, how many times have I heard how the movie changed and is nothing like the book?!?!? Happens all the time. :D:tu:

TML - Those questions are related to one another when viewed from a "Chosen People" perspective. Abraham and his descendants were the recipients of "a better way" (The Ten Commandments and Mosaic Law or the 'Law of Moses'). They were expected to model those laws to the outside world as a better way of life than the barbaric practices of the day. The Old Testament records both the benefits of following God and the results of straying back into barbarism. Each time the Hebrews strayed, God sent someone to warn them to return to the "better way", or face the consequences. Those messengers (or 'Prophets') were often murdered, but occasionally their warnings were heeded and the people repented of their bad behavior. (side note: The practice of public execution-by-stoning sounds horribly barbaric to our modern ears, though it would probably have been considered humane in context of other forms of capital punishment during that era. Cruxifixion, for example, was devised to maximize pain and humiliation for days. With stoning, unconsciousness would have occurred within a very short time, perhaps only a few seconds.)

Concerning slavery: Hebrew slavery was completely different from Egyptian- or American-style slavery. Under Mosaic Law, slavery was similar to indentured servitude, where a person was "in bondage" to another person until a debt was repaid. The Mosaic Law was very specific about the length of time a slave could be held: a maximum of seven years, after which the remaining debt was forgiven.

Concerning the crucifixion of Jesus: The corrupt Hebrew leaders of the time purposely brought Jesus to a Roman court and falsely accused him of being an enemy-of-the-state, knowing the Romans would punish (with cruxifixion) anyone who was suspected of insurrection. For example, Jesus was crucified along with two thieves. Under Mosaic Law, the punishment for theft was seven-fold repayment of the value of the stolen item, not execution. The Pharisees were bound by a principle of Mosaic Law: "the punishment should not exceed the crime" (commonly referred to as "An eye for an eye"). Thus, going contrary to their own established principles, they made their false accusations against Jesus to a Roman magistrate. (This also served as a warning to anyone else who dared to oppose the Pharisees and their cult-like hold on the Jewish nation.)

Edited to add: Wikipedia has a great explanation of the concept of "a better way":

Halakha guides not only religious practices and beliefs, but numerous aspects of day-to-day life. Halakha is often translated as "Jewish Law", although a more literal translation might be "the way to behave" or "the way of walking". The word derives from the root that means to behave (also to go or to walk).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha

simplybill

I want to thank you for your very informative answer. Interesting on the thoughts of messengers and how they were looked upon back then. It made me think of the difference how some are looked upon today.

Now, I always felt there was a different meaning to slavery ( but I still feel slavery: bad, very very bad ) of what some thinks in the bible. Now, here's another question, didn't a lot of slave holders in the south at the time, use that bit in the bible to justify their reason for enslaving?

This isn't new news. There are many people that believe Jesus and Mary had a child somewhere in France and his bloodline is carried on today. There were papyrus fragments found and were translated. In them, they claim Jesus referred to Mary as his wife.

The DaVinci Code?!?!?! Right?

Anyone?! ANyone?! ( what do I know, I didn't read that book either. ...................... I should have )

Probably why I've never married.

Celebrate my 25th this past Wednesday. Never had that. So, I don't understand why people complain about that.

There are two different accounts of the creation of man and woman, one in chapter 1 of Genesis where man and woman are created at the same time, on the sixth day, and the more commonly remembered Adam's rib version in Chapter 2, after the seventh day. Obviously, Genesis is a composite document.

Naw, I'll still see them as a great rock band. ;):P
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Hammerclaw

;) I'm a bookseller, how many times have I heard how the movie changed and is nothing like the book?!?!? Happens all the time. :D:tu:

I want to thank you for your very informative answer. Interesting on the thoughts of messengers and how they were looked upon back then. It made me think of the difference how some are looked upon today.

Now, I always felt there was a different meaning to slavery ( but I still feel slavery: bad, very very bad ) of what some thinks in the bible. Now, here's another question, didn't a lot of slave holders in the south at the time, use that bit in the bible to justify their reason for enslaving?

The DaVinci Code?!?!?! Right?

Anyone?! ANyone?! ( what do I know, I didn't read that book either. ...................... I should have )

Celebrate my 25th this past Wednesday. Never had that. So, I don't understand why people complain about that.

Naw, I'll still see them as a great rock band. ;):P

Shaken nor stirred, today? :tsu:
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simplybill

Now, here's another question, didn't a lot of slave holders in the south at the time, use that bit in the bible to justify their reason for enslaving?

Yes, they did, and it was done in a way that further de-humanized Africans. The movie "12 Years a Slave" has a scene where the plantation owner is "preaching" to the slaves, and he quotes a bible passage about masters and slaves (taken out of context). It was horrifying, but it really brought home the dehumanizing culture of Western-style slavery.

The actual book (12 Years a Slave) was written by Solomon Northrup himself. He was an amazing man!

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Grandpa Greenman

You mean there is a good kind of slavery? Must be a definition I am unaware of. As soon as you declare another human property they are dehumanized.

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Golden Duck

What about conscription, whether military or civil?

The Bible wasn't originally written in English.

Edited by Mangoze
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Grandpa Greenman

Usually when you are conscripted you are paid. If not you are a slave.

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