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Still Waters

Was Jesus really nailed to the cross?

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Gigmaster

Since the earliest accounts of Jesus are at least 60 years after the fact, and there are no accounts from anyone who personally witnessed the Crucifixion, we have no way of knowing. All we have is 3rd, and 4th person accounts from questionable sources, several decades after the events supposedly occurred. There is serious doubt, supported by very good evidence, that any of the events in the New Testaments actually happened at all.

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Mr Walker

Since the earliest accounts of Jesus are at least 60 years after the fact, and there are no accounts from anyone who personally witnessed the Crucifixion, we have no way of knowing. All we have is 3rd, and 4th person accounts from questionable sources, several decades after the events supposedly occurred. There is serious doubt, supported by very good evidence, that any of the events in the New Testaments actually happened at all.

Many scholars would dispute that our first accounts are as late as AD 90. Many would argue that at least one of the gospels was an eyewitness account. You state as fact things which are uncertain and debated. Revisionist biblical history is late on the scene and is a response to many social factors, but most revisionist historians have a agenda just as powerful as traditionalists.

Mark is considered the first gospel wriiten down

Most scholars believe that Mark was written by a second-generation Christian, around or shortly after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple in year 70.

https://en.wikipedia..._of_the_Gospels

That places it only 40 years after christ's putative death and resurrection and well within the life time of people of his time.

As is the case with all the Gospels, it is unknown exactly when the Gospel of Luke was written. Scholars have proposed a range of dates from as early as 60 AD to as late as 90 AD.[102][103][104] Donald Guthrie argues, however, that Acts was written in the early 60s AD (since the book ends before the death of Paul, which most probably occurred during the Persecution of the Christians under Nero between AD 64 and AD 68), and therefore the Gospel of Luke would have to have been written prior to that, around AD 60.

So we have luke written only 30 years after christ's death

Matthew is similarly dated as early as 70 AD or as late as 100 AD, and John sometime between 80 and 95 AD

So, possibly first person authors, if not physical writers., (john) Many scholars believe that the "beloved disciple" is a person who heard and followed Jesus, and the gospel of John is based heavily on the witness of this "beloved disciple."[118]

most likely at least one second hand, not third or fourth hand at all.

Then of course there are the writings of saul/paul, even earlier than the gospel accounts, writing only 20 to 30 years after christ's death.

Paul the Apostle, a 1st-century Pharisaic Jew who experienced a conversion to faith in Jesus, dictated letters to various churches and individuals from c. 48–68.[162] Though there are debates on Paul's authorship for some of these epistles, almost all scholars agree that Paul wrote the central corpus of these letters (such as the Epistle to the Romans and 1 Corinthians). Jerome Murphy-O'Connor believes that the historical Jesus is fundamental to the teachings of Paul, who rejected the separation of the Jesus of faith from the Jesus of history.[163] While not personally an eyewitness of Jesus' ministry, Paul states that he was acquainted with people who had known Jesus: the apostle Peter (also known as Cephas), the apostle John, and James, described as the brother of Jesus (Galatians1:19). Likewise, Paul alludes to Jesus' humanity and divinity, the Last Supper, his crucifixion, and reports of his resurrection.[164]

Edited by Mr Walker

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Habitat

Worrying about the fastenings used to crucify Jesus seems a case of being side-tracked into a blind alley, a most unproductive exercise, imo.

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Stubbly_Dooright

Worrying about the fastenings used to crucify Jesus seems a case of being side-tracked into a blind alley, a most unproductive exercise, imo.

Uh, actually, I think it is good to use various clues for a good investigation for coming to the conclusion of it. If something that was reported to be part of the historic situation, but wasn't invented until hundreds of years later, would show the unlikeliness of the account to have occurred.

When there is not actual accounts of the history, scientific investigation can help retell the story as it played out.

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psyche101

Worrying about the fastenings used to crucify Jesus seems a case of being side-tracked into a blind alley, a most unproductive exercise, imo.

And yet the JW's see it as a big deal, and one of the small lies that make all other religions but them false. Pagans they label them I think.

But the Church has stated it does not believe in the Adam and Eve story anymore, it is claimed to be allegory. Fossil record shows the rise of man without question.

So - who committed original sin, and why would the Son of God have to die for an allegory, unless it was all made up too?

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Mr Walker

And yet the JW's see it as a big deal, and one of the small lies that make all other religions but them false. Pagans they label them I think.

But the Church has stated it does not believe in the Adam and Eve story anymore, it is claimed to be allegory. Fossil record shows the rise of man without question.

So - who committed original sin, and why would the Son of God have to die for an allegory, unless it was all made up too?

Maybe the allegory is about how human knowledge, without an equal application of wisdom about the nature of ourselves, and our relationship to the world around us, can kill us all. Or more simply how dangerous for individuals and societies knowledge without commensurate understanding and wisdom, is for anyone. To me genesis has always been an exploration of two things.

the transition from the spiritually based life of hunters and gatherers to the more technologically and scientifically based life of irrigators and settled farmers; AND an appreciation of how important wisdom and understanding is to balance pure technical knowledge.

In the bible this wisdom and understanding is seen as a spiritual attribute, coming from our connection to god. I think this was because it was known by the writers of genesis to exist in the older hunter gatherer societies which were almost totally spiritually connected to their environment,. but we can learn it for ourselves. It is actually a quality of our self aware consciousness, just as is our ability to learn and know things, technically and scientifically.

In the new testament one of the most striking characteristics of christ, is his role as a bridge between the spiritual dimension of mankind and the material one. He re-emphasises our need for a spiritual awareness, but explains also how we have a physical and material aspect to our lives on earth.

Its almost as if the gospel writers see christ as re awakening the spiritual awareness of the "primitive" man who saw the spiritual world in everything, and uniting it to the new material awareness of the "modern' man, based on laws social order, and even legalism, as a code of living.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Habitat

A man and his ever-nagging wife went on vacation to Jerusalem.

While they were there, the wife passed away.

The undertaker told the husband, "You can have her shipped home for

$5,000, or you can bury her here, in the Holy Land, for $150."

The man thought about it and told him he would just have her shipped home.

The undertaker asked, "Why would you spend $5,000 to ship your wife home,

when it would be wonderful to be buried here in the Holy Land, and you would spend only $150 ? "

The man replied, "Long ago a man died here, was buried

here, and three days later he rose from the dead.....I just can't take that chance.

:o
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back to earth
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psyche101

Maybe the allegory is about how human knowledge, without an equal application of wisdom about the nature of ourselves, and our relationship to the world around us, can kill us all. Or more simply how dangerous for individuals and societies knowledge without commensurate understanding and wisdom, is for anyone. To me genesis has always been an exploration of two things.

the transition from the spiritually based life of hunters and gatherers to the more technologically and scientifically based life of irrigators and settled farmers; AND an appreciation of how important wisdom and understanding is to balance pure technical knowledge.

In the bible this wisdom and understanding is seen as a spiritual attribute, coming from our connection to god. I think this was because it was known by the writers of genesis to exist in the older hunter gatherer societies which were almost totally spiritually connected to their environment,. but we can learn it for ourselves. It is actually a quality of our self aware consciousness, just as is our ability to learn and know things, technically and scientifically.

In the new testament one of the most striking characteristics of christ, is his role as a bridge between the spiritual dimension of mankind and the material one. He re-emphasises our need for a spiritual awareness, but explains also how we have a physical and material aspect to our lives on earth.

Its almost as if the gospel writers see christ as re awakening the spiritual awareness of the "primitive" man who saw the spiritual world in everything, and uniting it to the new material awareness of the "modern' man, based on laws social order, and even legalism, as a code of living.

You are missing the point.

Sure, you can make up a huge pile of steaming BS to "explain" God's thought process in hindsight, thing is, the alleged death of Jesus is not allegory is it? But he supposedly died for our sins, which come from original sin, which the Church recognises didn't happen. The Adam story is nonsense. So Jesus died for an allegory, and that is why we have Easter is it?

Who committed original sin if it was not Adam? Like the Bible says happened.

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Habitat

Going into minutiae like this( nails etc) lends credence to the idea that for many people, the Jesus "thing" is a personality cult. People want to be associated with someone/something they see as more "powerful" than all those types of "evil-doers" that might have also blighted their life. But what good does it do me/you, that he was the "son of God", if I/you are not, and cannot be ? None that I can see. The whole business only makes sense if we are all little Jesus's, in potentia. Years ago I recall becoming exasperated by people, who became exasperated in return, arguing that all that was needed was to believe, in, e.g., the resurrection. and you would be "saved", no more to pay ! It sounded highly dubious then, and still does. What people really need to do is relieve Jesus of some of the heavy lifting, and follow a line of enquiry as to how he, and many others in the line of the "perennial philosophy", came to be illumined with this "God Light" that has caused their names to live on for millenia. Because even casual scholarship says they were not always so charismatic in their earlier lives. The bible actually reveals that many who knew Jesus from his early years, thought him unremarkable. Maybe that is the real story of "hope" in the New Testament, that such transformation is open to all.

“If then you do not make yourself equal to God, you cannot apprehend God; for like is known by like.

Leap clear of all that is corporeal, and make yourself grown to a like expanse with that greatness which is beyond all measure; rise above all time and become eternal; then you will apprehend God. Think that for you too nothing is impossible; deem that you too are immortal, and that you are able to grasp all things in your thought, to know every craft and science; find your home in the haunts of every living creature; make yourself higher than all heights and lower than all depths; bring together in yourself all opposites of quality, heat and cold, dryness and fluidity; think that you are everywhere at once, on land, at sea, in heaven; think that you are not yet begotten, that you are in the womb, that you are young, that you are old, that you have died, that you are in the world beyond the grave; grasp in your thought all of this at once, all times and places, all substances and qualities and magnitudes together; then you can apprehend God.

But if you shut up your soul in your body, and abase yourself, and say “I know nothing, I can do nothing; I am afraid of earth and sea, I cannot mount to heaven; I know not what I was, nor what I shall be,” then what have you to do with God?”

; Hermes Trismegistus

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acute

It has probably already been said, but.....

I read/heard somewhere that the Romans didn't use crucifixion at all!

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Davros of Skaro

Was Jesus really nailed to the cross?

Yes. The same thing as Vader cutting off Luke's hand with a light saber.

Both are works of fiction.

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Sherapy

Was Jesus really nailed to the cross?

Yes. The same thing as Vader cutting off Luke's hand with a light saber.

Both are works of fiction.

Hey Darv, where have you been? Good to have you back!

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Davros of Skaro

Hey Darv, where have you been? Good to have you back!

Thanks.

Darvocet likes to go backpacking in the Appalachian mountains alot. I hear Coyotes becking me to come back as I type.

Laterz

P.S. Darvocet surfs other places on the Net as well.

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