+Liquid Gardens Posted March 23, 2016 #76 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Even if you believe that all religions are based on fairy tales, you can still ackowledge that the lessons drawn from the Judeo/Christian fairy tales lead to a better society than the lessons drawn from the other fairy tales. I don't think that's in evidence yet, there are many confounding factors when evaluating the health of a society and it's progression to be able to tease out 'religion'. "Judeo/Christian" (two words that really shouldn't be combined) belief has been liberalized, which is why today it's much more palatable; for hundreds/thousands of years, it was no better than any other religion as far as behavior and beliefs, maybe worse. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted March 23, 2016 #77 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I would still argue that such "atheist states" harbored supernatural beliefs about their rulers. Religion does currently hold the record, although it's true that no ideology can be free from potential abuse of power. ... What supernatural beliefs? What record? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted March 23, 2016 #78 Share Posted March 23, 2016 The construct of your guy's imagination is very real. I will quote the U.S. declaration of independence: “A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.”. Feel free to make a point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted March 23, 2016 #79 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) Another thing: Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. How can the first amendment ever work? War is the antonym of peace. Don't you guy's get it? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances non sequitur nɒn ˈsɛkwɪtə/ noun a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement. "his weird mixed metaphors and non sequiturs" Edited March 23, 2016 by Mangoze 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DingoLingo Posted March 23, 2016 #80 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Facts like 75% of scientists, engineers and technical people work in the private sector and are busy as little beavers arming us to the teeth with more and even deadlier weapons of mass destruction? Y-a-a-a-y Science! we talking.. world wide or just the states? because I have a small feeling your facts at 75%.. might be just a wee bit out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplybill Posted March 23, 2016 #81 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) I don't think that's in evidence yet, there are many confounding factors when evaluating the health of a society and it's progression to be able to tease out 'religion'. "Judeo/Christian" (two words that really shouldn't be combined) belief has been liberalized, which is why today it's much more palatable; for hundreds/thousands of years, it was no better than any other religion as far as behavior and beliefs, maybe worse. That was my earlier point concerning slavery. It took hundreds of years for Western society to finally abolish slavery. It's the same with the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages and the recent pedophile scandal: they failed to hold themselves accountable to their own standards. Judeo/Christian ideology requires "a long obedience in the same direction." It's taken hundreds of years to get to where we are, but it can all be lost within a generation. Edited March 23, 2016 by simplybill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DingoLingo Posted March 23, 2016 #82 Share Posted March 23, 2016 That was my earlier point concerning slavery. It took hundreds of years for Western society to finally abolish slavery. It's the same with the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages and the recent pedophile scandal: they failed to hold themselves accountable to their own standards. Judeo/Christian ideology requires "a long obedience in the same direction." It's taken hundreds of years to get to where we are, but it can all be lost within a generation. well.. they did and they didn't.. we no longer wear the chains and shackles.. we are now 'wage' slaves.. or we support places that treat their workers like slaves.. by the products we purchase etc.. we are all locked in a never ending circle of slavery sorry to say.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeder Posted March 23, 2016 Author #83 Share Posted March 23, 2016 well.. they did and they didn't.. we no longer wear the chains and shackles.. we are now 'wage' slaves.. or we support places that treat their workers like slaves.. by the products we purchase etc.. we are all locked in a never ending circle of slavery sorry to say.. I said similar on the Black lives Matter thread besides, are we not ALL slaves in some form? We are bought up to WORK... and you will work till your body is old... (UK - 65 is/was retirement age but now there's a push for us to work even longer) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted March 23, 2016 #84 Share Posted March 23, 2016 well.. they did and they didn't.. we no longer wear the chains and shackles.. we are now 'wage' slaves.. or we support places that treat their workers like slaves.. by the products we purchase etc.. we are all locked in a never ending circle of slavery sorry to say.. Sad to say that be true, we are all slaves to the world wide plutocracy. *(Warning naughty words) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DingoLingo Posted March 23, 2016 #85 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) well its time for this slave to fly home.. its been a long two weeks have a good Easter all.. and enjoy your Ishtah eggs.. and may it be a fertile one.. blessings to all Edited March 23, 2016 by DingoLingo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted March 23, 2016 #86 Share Posted March 23, 2016 TML- At this point in history, the message of the OP is irrelevant. We've had thousands of years to analyze all of the available ideologies. Now we're at the point where we're arguing over which fire hose to use as the house is burning down. I firmly believe the message of the OP, whether either of us agree or disagree with it, is relevant as it was the point to start this thread. And I was hoping you would answer my question, pertaining to the message of the OP. Is it going to be hard for me to expect you to answer yes or no and as to why? The OP message is looking at certain passages in the bible and the atmosphere surrounding it at the time as to why one can conclude the reality or the truthiness of it. ( thank you Colbert! ) You are going on about looking at what has happened afterwards and what you think is what is wrong with it and with a one side only look at it. If I was going to talk about what is irrelevant at the moment, in this thread, is what you are saying about what is wrong after and what we should be doing. I simply made an opinion of agreeing with the five points of the OP. You said something about the fact, that whether we should be believing them as lies. I asked you if believed it. You didn't answer. Well, from my point of view, I don't think you answered. What has years later of people ignoring something and what you think one particular point of view have to do with whether the five points are understandable points or not? I'm going to quote Richard Dawkins again:“There are no Christians, as far as I know, blowing up buildings,” Dawkins said. “I am not aware of any Christian suicide bombers. I am not aware of any major Christian denomination that believes the penalty for apostasy is death.” As I have not read Dawkins, I would have to allow others who have to say of the truth of it. But as for Christians blowing up buildings. http://www.ethicsdaily.com/an-accurate-look-at-timothy-mcveighs-beliefs-cms-15532Dawkins wondered aloud whether Christianity might indeed offer an antidote to protect western civilization against jihad.“I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity, in so far as Christianity might be a bulwark against something worse.” I'm going to extrapolate a concept from his remark: Even if you believe that all religions are based on fairy tales, you can still acknowledge that the lessons drawn from the Judeo/Christian fairy tales lead to a better society than the lessons drawn from the other fairy tales. And as I have pointed out to you, there are in other belief systems too. http://www.sapphyr.net/natam/nacodeethics.htmFor example. I have found varying examples of the Native American culture within the U.S. culture. It seems that this has helped formed the U.S. in my point of view. If you want to draw on lessons derived from Judeo/Christian outlook, then I think you are also going to include slavery and the treatment of women as possessions and as second class citizens. No, your point of view here does not match mine. I have seen a lot and read a lot and met a lot, to see, that the good and bad, come from all sorts of backgrounds. I maybe want to take a spin and put a positive look on this, ( on those from Mexico and such and I know this might touch on them on a cultural level more so than on a religious level ) but we had neighbors who the wife was from Mexico. Her family visited, and while my husband was doing the night shift, and they were all congregated out in the backyards, ( this was on a military base where our houses were together, the family were very gracious and pretty much gathered me into their congregation and made me feel like part of them. We were all sitting down talking, when one of the announced that dinner was ready, and they were heading in to eat. I was going to get up and get myself dinner, when one of them came right out and planted a full plate of dinner with a glass of something to drink. I'm like, It was very gracious of them. We need to look further to where our lessons come from. We also need to not take for granted what we think is what we need, and see the true examples of what we really see as being the greater good. Religious and cultural bias is not the way to do it. I can clearly see the point of the OP. I don't think this spells trouble on a 'we're going to Hell' thought process. That was my earlier point concerning slavery. It took hundreds of years for Western society to finally abolish slavery. It's the same with the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages and the recent pedophile scandal: they failed to hold themselves accountable to their own standards. Judeo/Christian ideology requires "a long obedience in the same direction." It's taken hundreds of years to get to where we are, but it can all be lost within a generation. Why should it take that long!!! If it's all cracked to be, then wouldn't it take a lot less time? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplybill Posted March 23, 2016 #87 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) TML- To answer your question: No, I don't believe the OP. The existence of Jesus has been established. A couple of Wikipedia articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus You asked (regarding the hundreds of years it took to abolish slavery): Why should it take that long!!! If it's all cracked to be, then wouldn't it take a lot less time? A better question might be: Why did we take so long? The Founder Fathers included the phrase, "All men are created equal" in the U.S. Constitution, and we still took decades to make it happen! One of the central themes of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is that humankind is constantly going off the rails, and God is constantly arranging events to bring us back to "the better way." Edited March 23, 2016 by simplybill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbco196 Posted March 23, 2016 #88 Share Posted March 23, 2016 According to your guy's bible, he went to hell: http://taylormarshal...scent-into.html Wrong. Tell Mr. Salty he's incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted March 23, 2016 #89 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Wrong. Tell Mr. Salty he's incorrect. So the harrowing of hell never happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted March 23, 2016 #90 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) I dunno...the Catholics have Brighid and the Mormons have seer stones. They should quit throwing stones at each other while they're living in glass houses. Modern Paganism are Earth base religions, I don't see much Earth in Catholicism or Mormonism. They think the Earth is ruled by Satan. Edited March 23, 2016 by GreenmansGod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted March 23, 2016 #91 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) TML- To answer your question: No, I don't believe the OP. The existence of Jesus has been established. A couple of Wikipedia articles: https://en.wikipedia...istorical_Jesus https://en.wikipedia...ricity_of_Jesus Well, reading those articles, I get the sense of more debates between two opposing sides, than all of it agreeing there is a definite existence. Now, if you are stating that you believe he does, within finding good points in these wikipedia artilces. ( By the way, I use Wikipedia too, but you might want to include other sites as well, for the Wikipedia is fed upon everyone. ), then that's all good, but I still feel that OP's five points still make sense to me. I wish though, you answered my question, when I first asked you. You asked (regarding the hundreds of years it took to abolish slavery):Why should it take that long!!! If it's all cracked to be, then wouldn't it take a lot less time? A better question might be: Why did we take so long? The Founder Fathers included the phrase, "All men are created equal" in the U.S. Constitution, and we still took decades to make it happen! One of the central themes of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is that humankind is constantly going off the rails, and God is constantly arranging events to bring us back to "the better way." You didn't answer that question. You just brought in conjecture and the thought process of mankind going off the rails again.I'm just wondering, from your wording, if it's so good, why didn't take less time to make it work? And if we're so depended on Judeo/Christian principals, how come it didn't help? Edited March 23, 2016 by TheMustardLady 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted March 23, 2016 #92 Share Posted March 23, 2016 A better question might be: Why did we take so long? An even better question to me is why does the Bible spend much more time instructing slave owners how to treat their slaves (including the acceptable degree of beatings) and how slaves should be obedient to their masters, as opposed to calling out the obvious that treating people like property is evil? The Founder Fathers included the phrase, "All men are created equal" in the U.S. Constitution, and we still took decades to make it happen! Sure, but the Founding Fathers didn't tout their words as being delivered from the font of pure goodness. Matter of fact, instructions were built right into the Constitution on how to amend it if future generations discovered a better way. One of the central themes of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is that humankind is constantly going off the rails, and God is constantly arranging events to bring us back to "the better way." Which is borderline tautological; if everything that bad that happens is because of humankind and everything that is good is a result of God, then God's in a no-lose situation. Not sure how God arranging for the tsunami that killed a quarter million people several years ago resulted at all in 'a better way'. And of course, humankind can be seen as constantly going off the rails... just as God made us to do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted March 23, 2016 #93 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Feel free to make a point The point was made, I think you understood just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeder Posted March 23, 2016 Author #94 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) TML- To answer your question: No, I don't believe the OP. The existence of Jesus has been established. A couple of Wikipedia articles: https://en.wikipedia...istorical_Jesus https://en.wikipedia...ricity_of_Jesus " from your first link....do pls read this entire section Criticism of Jesus research methodsA number of scholars have criticised Historical Jesus research for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness, and some have argued that modern biblical scholarship is insufficiently critical and sometimes amounts to covert apologetics. https://en.wikipedia...esearch_methods Edited March 23, 2016 by seeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplybill Posted March 23, 2016 #95 Share Posted March 23, 2016 You didn't answer that question. You just brought in conjecture and the thought process of mankind going off the rails again. I'm just wondering, from your wording, if it's so good, why didn't take less time to make it work? And if we're so depended on Judeo/Christian principals, how come it didn't help? It takes so long because we're stubborn. We don't want to follow the rules. American slave owners made a lot of money with their free slave labor. Millions of lives were ruined here and in Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeder Posted March 23, 2016 Author #96 Share Posted March 23, 2016 worth reading/scrolling through... Criticism of the Biblehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted March 23, 2016 #97 Share Posted March 23, 2016 It takes so long because we're stubborn. We don't want to follow the rules. American slave owners made a lot of money with their free slave labor. Millions of lives were ruined here and in Africa. This sounds so generalization like. If you believe that, then is there proof, in how you believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplybill Posted March 24, 2016 #98 Share Posted March 24, 2016 An even better question to me is why does the Bible spend much more time instructing slave owners how to treat their slaves (including the acceptable degree of beatings) and how slaves should be obedient to their masters, as opposed to calling out the obvious that treating people like property is evil? Not sure how God arranging for the tsunami that killed a quarter million people several years ago resulted at all in 'a better way'. To answer your first question: I don't know. I could speculate that the rules on slavery in the Torah were infinitely more humane than the treatment of slaves by non-Hebrew slave owners, but I don't have the research available right now. I may be ordering a book that compares the lifestyle of the Hebrews (following the introduction of Torah Law) to the lifestyle of the surrounding nations. Regarding the tsunami - the mangrove forests that lined the coastline were removed to make beautiful white-sand beaches for luxury hotels. The trees would have significantly diluted the power of the wave. It was a matter of greed over common sense. This link explains it better: http://www.ecoworld.com/animals/fish/mangroves-stop-tsunami-2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeder Posted March 24, 2016 Author #99 Share Posted March 24, 2016 (edited) everyone,,, just watch ten mins, the first ten mins.... just DO it.... stick with it for JUST 10 mins Edited March 24, 2016 by seeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplybill Posted March 24, 2016 #100 Share Posted March 24, 2016 worth reading/scrolling through... seeder - I understand a non-believer's concerns about the authorship and legitimacy of the Bible. My point is that, even if the Bible were completely fabricated, it's still the best overall ideology to follow to change society for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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