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5 massive lies the Bible tells re Jesus

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Stubbly_Dooright

We make choices concerning the Bible, everyday. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life, or eschew retaliation and vengeance and turn the other cheek is one we make most often.

Yes, but is that consistent?

Yes. Sounds like something written by man, which it was. If there is a God, and admittedly, from a purely rational and scientific perspective, a very big if, everything we know concerning the creator is filtered through our own humanity and innate biases. Picking and choosing isn't only an option--it's an absolute necessity.

Well, I find this an interesting turn of events.

How so, Hammer?

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Hammerclaw

Derp. Did I say it was in the bible? No. There are passages in the bible that people are getting these ideas from, and they are widely held Christian beliefs.

If you actually looked at the link which I already posted, it lists every verse from the bible that talks about the supposed descent into Hell to free the just who were deprived of getting into heaven until Jesus released them.

https://www.google.c...117604692,d.dmo

Again posted for you.

If you believe a savior was needed...have you asked yourself why? If there was no savior yet to take away the sins of the world, where do you think the dead would go?

This is all hypothetical to me, of course. But I can't understand you not having some concept of this as a Christian.

With all due respect, Rose, the Catholic Apocrypha is not considered canon by most protestant denominations and is not in their Bible. That picking and choosing thing, again.
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barbco196

You keep demonstrating to me that you haven't. And yet you sound so certain in your faith, when you don't even seem to know what it is.

I have read the book. Plenty. I was forced to. And that was the first mistake...actually making me read it.

You can look at different translations, but the best thing to do is see what it originally said. For the Jews it was Sheol, and everyone went there.

Maybe you should ask yourself why it's such an unfathomable thing to you that Jesus might descend into Hell to bring the righteous people to heaven. Is it just that it's me bearing the news for you?

I have to ask again...why do you think a savior was needed? Where do you think the dead would go if there was not yet a savior who had died for them?

It's unfathomable because I don't believe in hell. That's not what The Bible teaches. My belief is that without a savior, people just die. That simple. The switch is turned off. Eternal darkness. They aren't tossed into some fiery pit.

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barbco196

You keep demonstrating to me that you haven't. And yet you sound so certain in your faith, when you don't even seem to know what it is.

I have read the book. Plenty. I was forced to. And that was the first mistake...actually making me read it.

You can look at different translations, but the best thing to do is see what it originally said. For the Jews it was Sheol, and everyone went there.

Maybe you should ask yourself why it's such an unfathomable thing to you that Jesus might descend into Hell to bring the righteous people to heaven. Is it just that it's me bearing the news for you?

I have to ask again...why do you think a savior was needed? Where do you think the dead would go if there was not yet a savior who had died for them?

My faith and religion are NOT the same thing. Do I need to elaborate or do you understand this very basic premise?

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GlitterRose

It's unfathomable because I don't believe in hell. That's not what The Bible teaches. My belief is that without a savior, people just die. That simple. The switch is turned off. Eternal darkness. They aren't tossed into some fiery pit.

It actually does teach about Hell. Many times. The original Jewish belief was Sheol, and everyone went there. In the New Testament, it was divided up into parts (and it was Hades, because it was in Greek). But in the New Testament Hades, there were two parts. One wasn't so bad, but still was away from God and not in heaven. The other was Gehenna, a place of eternal punishment for the wicked. The people in the first part were the ones said to be released. They had been basically decent, God-loving people, but without a savior, there was no place else to go.

The difference in translation comes from Sheol/Hades which is also something like under the earth. It doesn't mean literally under the earth, but it's more like the lowest places. So translations vary on what they're gonna say in English.

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Hammerclaw

Yes, but is that consistent?

Well, I find this an interesting turn of events.

How so, Hammer?

It's like winnowing grain. You toss the wheat into the air and the wind drives away the chaff and detritus and the kernels fall at your feet. You sift through the scriptures for kernels of wisdom your heart tells you are true.
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GlitterRose

It's unfathomable because I don't believe in hell. That's not what The Bible teaches. My belief is that without a savior, people just die. That simple. The switch is turned off. Eternal darkness. They aren't tossed into some fiery pit.

If you don't believe in a Hell, then why did anyone need a savior?

So you're thinking all of those great and wonderful people who just happened to die before Jesus did...they just ceased to exist? So what did following all of Yahweh's laws gain them? Was it all just to avoid smiting?

Edited by ChaosRose

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GlitterRose

It's like winnowing grain. You toss the wheat into the air and the wind drives away the chaff and detritus and the kernels fall at your feet. You sift through the scriptures for kernels of wisdom your heart tells you are true.

It would be awesome if everyone would do that. Then again, everyone finds different kernels. Some people are really stuck on some of those rancid ones.

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Hammerclaw

It would be awesome if everyone would do that. Then again, everyone finds different kernels. Some people are really stuck on some of those rancid ones.

By their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone who claims to be "saved" to use the protestant term, really is. Some are poisoned and deluded by their own human nature or are deliberate deceivers. Is it that kind which concerns you?
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GlitterRose

With all due respect, Rose, the Catholic Apocrypha is not considered canon by most protestant denominations and is not in their Bible. That picking and choosing thing, again.

I don't see that these quotes are coming from books she doesn't have.

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barbco196

It's like winnowing grain. You toss the wheat into the air and the wind drives away the chaff and detritus and the kernels fall at your feet. You sift through the scriptures for kernels of wisdom your heart tells you are true.

You mean, YOU sift through kernels? Unless God or Jesus shows up with a red pen and scratches out the 'non-truths', I will stick with, it's all truth.

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Grandpa Greenman

My faith and religion are NOT the same thing. Do I need to elaborate or do you understand this very basic premise?

Time for a beer.

How so? Does just mean you cherry pick it and go with your own insight? Fine with me, whatever keeps you off the terrorist no fly list. That pretty much what I do only I have expanded it to everything. Take the good leave the rest. It isn't rocket science.

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barbco196

It would be awesome if everyone would do that. Then again, everyone finds different kernels. Some people are really stuck on some of those rancid ones.

When you say these things, do you have the wisdom to know you are speaking about yourself? How many 'good kernels' have you brought up?

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GlitterRose

You mean, YOU sift through kernels? Unless God or Jesus shows up with a red pen and scratches out the 'non-truths', I will stick with, it's all truth.

But you're already scratching out a lot.

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GlitterRose

When you say these things, do you have the wisdom to know you are speaking about yourself? How many 'good kernels' have you brought up?

I'm pretty sure I brought up the Golden Rule, forgiveness, turning the other cheek.

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Hammerclaw

I don't see that these quotes are coming from books she doesn't have.

There's nothing in most of protestant theology about Jesus visiting Hell. It is not accepted as canon. You are quoting and citing documents that do not exist in Barbco's frame of reference. You are speaking as though to fellow Catholics--hence the consternation and confusion.
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barbco196

Time for a beer.

How so? Does just mean you cherry pick it and go with your own insight? Fine with me, whatever keeps you off the terrorist no fly list. That pretty much what I do only I have expanded it to everything. Take the good leave the rest. It isn't rocket science.

I might need one (beer) after this conversation. I do NOT agree with the concept of religion. Never have, never will. It creates separation and that is NOT what God wants. My faith is personal. It is my relationship with God, Jesus, and subsequently, humanity.

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Hammerclaw

But you're already scratching out a lot.

A whole lot, Barb. Just read all the Mosaic laws which we don't adhere to. We don't take women who commit adultery out and stone them to death. Jesus told us to ignore that one. Yet it's right there in the Bible, brought down from Mount Ararat. Edited by Hammerclaw
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GlitterRose

By their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone who claims to be "saved" to use the protestant term, really is. Some are poisoned and deluded by their own human nature or are deliberate deceivers. Is it that kind which concerns you?

Well, you look at all the horrors in the world, and there you'll find someone with a religious text that backs them up on it. And what's more of a bolster than saying God has your back? The sad part is, they aren't wrong. You can find it in there, somewhere, and that sucks.

I think it can only help us to start looking at these texts for what they really are. You might find those kernels of wisdom in there, but you'll have to wade through a lot of muck. There's a lot of people stuck in that muck. It might help to let them know it's muck they're stuck in, and then again, it might not. I find myself continuing to do so, though.

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barbco196

I'm pretty sure I brought up the Golden Rule, forgiveness, turning the other cheek.

Those are all good. I'm happy you can still see some positive aspects of The Bible.

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GlitterRose

I might need one (beer) after this conversation. I do NOT agree with the concept of religion. Never have, never will. It creates separation and that is NOT what God wants. My faith is personal. It is my relationship with God, Jesus, and subsequently, humanity.

You say this and then you go and agree with that sign.

Ugh...I give up.

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GlitterRose

Those are all good. I'm happy you can still see some positive aspects of The Bible.

Of course I can. I see them in other religious texts, too. Some form of the Golden Rule can be found in most of them...along with all that muck I've been talking about.

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Hammerclaw

Well, you look at all the horrors in the world, and there you'll find someone with a religious text that backs them up on it. And what's more of a bolster than saying God has your back? The sad part is, they aren't wrong. You can find it in there, somewhere, and that sucks.

I think it can only help us to start looking at these texts for what they really are. You might find those kernels of wisdom in there, but you'll have to wade through a lot of muck. There's a lot of people stuck in that muck. It might help to let them know it's muck they're stuck in, and then again, it might not. I find myself continuing to do so, though.

The Bible is not the Religion and it most certainly is not God. Some people, never-the-less, raise it up like an idol, and although I respect the wisdom therein, I will never bow down and worship it. Nothing crafted by the hand of man is infallible. Edited by Hammerclaw
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GlitterRose

The Bible is not the Religion and it most certainly is not God. Some people, never-the-less, raise it up like an idol, and although I respect the wisdom therein, I will never bow down and worship it. Nothing crafted by the hand of man is infallible.

Thank you. A statement I can actually agree with. That could actually be a way to reach people. By showing them that religious texts are being raised up like idols.

Edited by ChaosRose
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Hammerclaw

I know there is a God, because only a God could have created Women. Rose, Barb, I know you disagree, but you are both good people and people of good conscience often disagree. Be kind to one-another and respect each other's boundaries. From such disagreements great friendships are born. Peace unto both of you. :yes:

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