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Nuclear Wessel

How would a god prove its existence?

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StarMountainKid

I think the very crappy nature of the universe that evolved us creating all our tragic lives is proof either there is no God or God exists as a malicious Being. I'm not so sure we want God to manifest itself to us.

Edited by StarMountainKid
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seeder

I am not sure if I can entirely agree that love is merely a "chemical". I can agree that there are chemicals involved in love, but love inherently being simply a "chemical"? That is a curious notion.

never heard of pheromones?

A pheromone (from Ancient Greek φέρω phero "to bear" and hormone, from Ancient Greek ὁρμή "impetus") is a secreted or excreted chemical factor that triggers a social response in members of the same species. Pheromones are chemicals capable of acting outside the body of the secreting individual to impact the behavior of the receiving individual.[1] There are alarm pheromones, food trail pheromones, sex pheromones, and many others that affect behavior or physiology. Pheromones are used from basic unicellular prokaryotes to complex multicellular eukaryotes.[2] Their use among insects has been particularly well documented. In addition, some vertebrates and plants communicate by using pheromones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheromone

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XenoFish

You must become the vehicle that carries you to this truth. You must go to the mountain top, it will not come to you. If you ditch the baggage of largely egocentric illusions, you will float like a butterfly to the peak.

Over 20 years of occult practices and I can honestly say that all this god nonsense is in your head. If you want it bad enough, the subconscious will fabricate a 'reality' to fit your desire.

http://www.salon.com/2014/01/04/this_is_your_brain_on_religion_uncovering_the_science_of_belief/

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Nuclear Wessel

never heard of pheromones?

I have, absolutely.

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third_eye

Any god that has to defend the idea that it / he / she is GOD is not nor will ever be ... the limitation is the mind and the need to be convinced is the delimiter of the heart ~

~

First define the heart then the mind ...then it follows that no gods / god needs to be subservient to mankind ~

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Habitat

How do you widen your circle of identity? What do you mean by identity?

The love of truth?

Please clarify?

I gave you an example, you might extend that to no creature being any more important than another. If there is one attribute that sets humans apart, it may be the potential to reach into God, and complete the circle of creation, the created coming back to know its creator.

"But if you shut up your soul in your body, and abase yourself, and say “I know nothing, I can do nothing; I am afraid of earth and sea, I cannot mount to heaven; I know not what I was, nor what I shall be,” then what have you to do with God?”

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Sherapy

I gave you an example, you might extend that to no creature being any more important than another. If there is one attribute that sets humans apart, it may be the potential to reach into God, and complete the circle of creation, the created coming back to know its creator.

"But if you shut up your soul in your body, and abase yourself, and say “I know nothing, I can do nothing; I am afraid of earth and sea, I cannot mount to heaven; I know not what I was, nor what I shall be,” then what have you to do with God?”

Is this a biblical quote?

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Habitat

And?

How can what works for you apply to any of us?

We all are coming from different perspectives.

Are you suggesting that this God you speak of has one way to ? and that Is through you? Or am I misunderstanding you?

The one way is through the heart, not the rational, inquisitive mind.

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Habitat

Is this a biblical quote?

No, it is the work of a Hermes Trismegitus, who may actually be an amalgam of people from the ancient world.

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XenoFish

The full quote.

“If then you do not make yourself equal to God, you cannot apprehend God; for like is known by like.

Leap clear of all that is corporeal, and make yourself grown to a like expanse with that greatness which is beyond all measure; rise above all time and become eternal; then you will apprehend God. Think that for you too nothing is impossible; deem that you too are immortal, and that you are able to grasp all things in your thought, to know every craft and science; find your home in the haunts of every living creature; make yourself higher than all heights and lower than all depths; bring together in yourself all opposites of quality, heat and cold, dryness and fluidity; think that you are everywhere at once, on land, at sea, in heaven; think that you are not yet begotten, that you are in the womb, that you are young, that you are old, that you have died, that you are in the world beyond the grave; grasp in your thought all of this at once, all times and places, all substances and qualities and magnitudes together; then you can apprehend God.

But if you shut up your soul in your body, and abase yourself, and say “I know nothing, I can do nothing; I am afraid of earth and sea, I cannot mount to heaven; I know not what I was, nor what I shall be,” then what have you to do with God?”

Hermes Trismegistus, Hermetica: The Greek Corpus Hermeticum and the Latin Asclepius in a New English Translation, with Notes and Introduction

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Habitat

Over 20 years of occult practices and I can honestly say that all this god nonsense is in your head. If you want it bad enough, the subconscious will fabricate a 'reality' to fit your desire.

http://www.salon.com...ence_of_belief/

If occult practices involve other people, or external objects, then it is certainly doomed. The true path in an interior and solitary one, and nothing more, or less, than purity of heart is needed. And you are not allowed to say, "are we there yet ?" (my joke for today)

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Habitat

The full quote.

“If then you do not make yourself equal to God, you cannot apprehend God; for like is known by like.

Leap clear of all that is corporeal, and make yourself grown to a like expanse with that greatness which is beyond all measure; rise above all time and become eternal; then you will apprehend God. Think that for you too nothing is impossible; deem that you too are immortal, and that you are able to grasp all things in your thought, to know every craft and science; find your home in the haunts of every living creature; make yourself higher than all heights and lower than all depths; bring together in yourself all opposites of quality, heat and cold, dryness and fluidity; think that you are everywhere at once, on land, at sea, in heaven; think that you are not yet begotten, that you are in the womb, that you are young, that you are old, that you have died, that you are in the world beyond the grave; grasp in your thought all of this at once, all times and places, all substances and qualities and magnitudes together; then you can apprehend God.

But if you shut up your soul in your body, and abase yourself, and say “I know nothing, I can do nothing; I am afraid of earth and sea, I cannot mount to heaven; I know not what I was, nor what I shall be,” then what have you to do with God?”

Hermes Trismegistus, Hermetica: The Greek Corpus Hermeticum and the Latin Asclepius in a New English Translation, with Notes and Introduction

It certainly sounds a lot like "widening your circle of identity" to me.

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Habitat

I think the very crappy nature of the universe that evolved us creating all our tragic lives is proof either there is no God or God exists as a malicious Being. I'm not so sure we want God to manifest itself to us.

Do not fret about that, there are always others a lot worse off than ourselves. I look back at my life and realise I could easily have died in any one of a dozen accidents/incidents.

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Habitat

This is troublesome. Why would this being create the universe and then be constantly interacting in our daily lives? Why would such a being go to any trouble or give a rip whether a few humans believed in him or not?

Moving past that there may be a couple of avenues that this being might take. It could appear to everyone simultaneously and just say "Hey, I made all of this, I control everything, I'm always busy doing something to your lives. If I didn't love you I could destroy you right now." That wouldn't be so difficult for the supreme creator. If it talked to every intelligent being in the universe at once, who would be left to doubt it? From my point of view, the implications are not encouraging. If the creator of the universe needs to feel constantly involved in all beings daily lives; and seek recognition, it would seem that infinity of space and time must be pretty boring and pointless. Does this supreme being search for the meaning of its own existence and justify it by believing it needs to be involved in our lives?

What if our creator was not omnipotent or omniscient? A face could appear out of the tile wall while you are taking a shower and say "Hey, I just wanted you to know I created this simulation. Its running on a computer in our entertainment room. I did it for a school project, but I liked it so much, I kept it running. When I created it, I set boundary conditions, gave you a set of abilities and an open architecture and just let you develop. I did't get an A on the project, but I think this is really cool for the first universe simulation that I have programmed. I'm sure I'll do better on the next one.

Or another alternative, the creator talks to some of those scientists and explains the value of the fundamental constants of the universe; the charge of the electron, gravitation, the mass of the electron, the speed of light etc. He could tell them why it fits together the way it does and maybe explain the quantum graininess of the universe. If he was agreeable, they could ask him to show them what would happen to the universe if one or more of those constants were changed. If he liked us enough, he could open up a window to a parallel universe with different constants. That would be a godlike thing for a being to do. I'm no too satisfied with this, it is not very elegant. Needs more thought, but there have been eleven posts since I started writing. I may already be irrelevant.

I discount the synthetic, simulated universe on the basis the electricity bill would be crippling.

Edited by Habitat

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XenoFish

tumblr_nnwyetH6Kb1qgz8u1o1_500.jpg

To explain "as within, so without." If you believe in god then your perception of the world has be based on that belief, you will see god when there is no god to see. How the occultist see's results where there is none. Or they take anything that corresponds to mean they have results.

91395c47421b7e3a395bc875f3f12421.jpg

God exist because we want it to.

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Habitat

Unburden yourself of the multiplicity of mumbo-jumbo creeds, and venture into the sun-lit uplands of truth, where you alone are the captain, on a voyage to the absolute. But, it is not without its risks, anything that involves averting your attention from the world is risky, but if there is a risk worth taking, this is it.

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Rlyeh

Couldn't hurt to start off with an accurate creation story.

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Habitat

Couldn't hurt to start off with an accurate creation story.

Just what I was referring to, people fixated on mumbo-jumbo. The wise move hurriedly along.

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StarMountainKid

How would a god prove its existence? How about revealing itself to everyone on earth at the same time in the same way?

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Rlyeh

Just what I was referring to, people fixated on mumbo-jumbo. The wise move hurriedly along.

As hurriedly as one can when fumbling around in the dark.
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Habitat

As hurriedly as one can when fumbling around in the dark.

Darkness, deepest darkness, is where the real progress is made. Holding out hope that reason can light this pathway, is all in vain.

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seeder

How would a god prove its existence? How about revealing itself to everyone on earth at the same time in the same way?

allegedly the false prophet may do that.....

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Nuclear Wessel

How would a god prove its existence? How about revealing itself to everyone on earth at the same time in the same way?

Does that prove that it is a god, though?

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Habitat

There was a loon on these boards at one time who offered $10,000 reward for proof of God. I wonder if a lightning bolt did not get him, the Lord of all valued at a miserable $10k !

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Stubbly_Dooright

First of all I should like to mention that I in no way, shape, or form subscribe to any religion or particular sense of spirituality (this is not exactly relevant); at best I would consider myself a pantheist or, as Richard Dawkins so eloquently defines a "pantheist", a "sexed up atheist"... I prefer the latter, just because. ;)

Before writing this out further I should also like to address that this post makes the following assumption:

1.) it assumes that we live in a universe that is governed by a "god"--an all knowing, all-powerful, all-present being who very much interacts with our daily lives.

2.) it assumes that this "god" possesses the capacity to prove its existence to any individual and is able to perform virtually any required task as science needs in order to prove its existence.

Now, following from the second assumption... what does science NEED, exactly, to prove that a god exists? For example, say that there are a particular set of scientists who are ready and willing to investigate a god. Because god is all of the characteristics as I describe it above, it transforms itself into an anthropic being and offers itself for rigorous testing by scientists.

The scientists then present him with questions. I don't know exactly WHAT questions scientists would ask, but I will give it a shot.

The first question is: if you are really a god, turn yourself into a cat. This god agrees and turns itself into a cat, but is this really evidence that such a being is a god and not just an extremely advanced alien life-form that can turn itself into a cat? What if it is, indeed, a human that is born with some exceptional abilities? That doesn't make it god...

The second question is: if you are a god, teleport all of us (the scientists) into the atmosphere of Venus and ensure that there is no harm that comes to us. The "god" obliges and the act is carried out. They then ask the god to transfer them back to where they all were, and he does this. This, again... does not prove that this being is, indeed, a god... it just suggests that it is a being that has extraordinary abilities.

The third question is posed by each scientist: Can you tell me all of my personal information and all about everybody who I have encountered in my life? Can you tell me all about what I am thinking, what I have done throughout the day? Can you tell me exactly how old I am? Can you tell me all of the prayers I have made (if any) and why you have not answered all of them? The "god" obliges and answers all off the information with complete accuracy and precision. But, again... this doesn't mean that the "god" is truly a god... it just means that this god is a being that obviously has some amazing capabilities.

I guess what I am getting at is whether or not there would ever be sufficient evidence from a god to prove that it does, indeed, exist... assuming it really does exist. How could its existence every truly be proven? There would always be an alternate explanation for its abilities--maybe its abilities enable it to perform actions to satisfy all of the questions posed to it but it is not necessarily a "supreme" creator of the universe. How could one differentiate between an actual god and merely a highly advanced ET civilization with extraordinary abilities, but yet lack the capacity to create everything?

I am quite tired and there may be some flaws here in my writing... but overall I think this topic could spark some very interesting discussion. Let me know if there is anything logically flawed with my questioning/ideas and I will adjust them accordingly.

My big question is... what do YOU think a god would have to do to prove that it is, in fact, a god... in particular in the realm of science? It would be exceptionally difficult (if not impossible) to do.

What a great question. Frankly, to make a subjective God to an objective God, he would have to pop into existence next to me, while talking to others. Then feed, dress, and make happy everyone around.

Then, I would see it to a definite surety, he exists.

I love the assumption that "scientists" would be the ones to decide, as if the rest of us are not qualified to judge. All I see here is idolatry of science, and an underlying assumption it can answer anything and everything. In truth, scientists are no better placed to "solve" the mystery, some would say less well placed, with their rationalist approach.

Why not, they are educated and are in the business to come to a logical conclusion, right? Now, I don't blame you in thinking that we shouldn't be left out. How does everyone come to their conclusion? Differently, right?

Wouldn't scientist have the better practice in recording it?

The rational mind cannot process that which is not defined/definable. This probably explains why a lot of people over-subscribed to rationalist thinking, are uncomfortable with "god" talk.

I think that depends on the type of rational mind. What if there were different sets of rational minds?

Nothing will ever prove that god does/doesn't exist. Which is why we will never have an end to the argument from both sides. The trick would be at least to separate "god's" will from the will of man. However religions are saturated with the will of men. In fact I believe that's all religion is, a propaganda machine. Promoting spiritual elitism.

If god does exist, it would be like nothing from any religious text ever written. My biggest problem with god is where did god come from? What created god? If something created god then what created that thing/force/whatever it is that created god?

The questions tend to chase it's tail. Never having a real answer because no one knows.

As I stand right now; god is an idea. One created by our ancestors to explain things that they didn't understand. Which is why there were so many of them. Not only this, the word of god is just the work of men who wrote the text as if they were god.

These questions you think are important to ask, I agree are just as important. :tu:

Not by rational means. God is accessible by love, not by reason. What manner of love, is this ? The love of truth, principally. the truth that, e.g., I am no more important than some random person across the world, that I have never even met. The ego does not stand for such nonsense, despite the truth of it being all too clear, when you really think about it. Love is about widening your circle of identity, till the stage of the ALL. At which point you are one with God, and become God.

Now, I liked this post, because you seem ( to me at least ) to bring another level here. By seeing God, or other things if you will, on a level through an emotion, like you choosing love.

I can see this. This is thought reflective. But, why say this as a definite? Is there proof of this?

How do you widen your circle of identity? What do you mean by identity?

The love of truth?

Please clarify?

A good question to Habitat's posts. I do see his thoughts of seeing through love, very interesting. But you ask the good questions, that would show how he came to these conclusions, albait subjective in my feeling.

You must become the vehicle that carries you to this truth. You must go to the mountain top, it will not come to you. If you ditch the baggage of largely egocentric illusions, you will float like a butterfly to the peak.

Where are the examples, that show this is the case?

This is troublesome. Why would this being create the universe and then be constantly interacting in our daily lives? Why would such a being go to any trouble or give a rip whether a few humans believed in him or not?

Moving past that there may be a couple of avenues that this being might take. It could appear to everyone simultaneously and just say "Hey, I made all of this, I control everything, I'm always busy doing something to your lives. If I didn't love you I could destroy you right now." That wouldn't be so difficult for the supreme creator. If it talked to every intelligent being in the universe at once, who would be left to doubt it? From my point of view, the implications are not encouraging. If the creator of the universe needs to feel constantly involved in all beings daily lives; and seek recognition, it would seem that infinity of space and time must be pretty boring and pointless. Does this supreme being search for the meaning of its own existence and justify it by believing it needs to be involved in our lives?

What if our creator was not omnipotent or omniscient? A face could appear out of the tile wall while you are taking a shower and say "Hey, I just wanted you to know I created this simulation. Its running on a computer in our entertainment room. I did it for a school project, but I liked it so much, I kept it running. When I created it, I set boundary conditions, gave you a set of abilities and an open architecture and just let you develop. I did't get an A on the project, but I think this is really cool for the first universe simulation that I have programmed. I'm sure I'll do better on the next one.

Or another alternative, the creator talks to some of those scientists and explains the value of the fundamental constants of the universe; the charge of the electron, gravitation, the mass of the electron, the speed of light etc. He could tell them why it fits together the way it does and maybe explain the quantum graininess of the universe. If he was agreeable, they could ask him to show them what would happen to the universe if one or more of those constants were changed. If he liked us enough, he could open up a window to a parallel universe with different constants. That would be a godlike thing for a being to do. I'm no too satisfied with this, it is not very elegant. Needs more thought, but there have been eleven posts since I started writing. I may already be irrelevant.

I can see this.
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