How would a god prove its existence?

[barbco196]

you see, if we cant test God, ask for proof etc....the choice is rather blunt..

Accept and believe without question...

Or die as an unbelieving sinner...

what a choice from a loving God...

Now if God was on earth tomorrow, waves his hand and stopped the Fukishima radiation poison and cleaned the oceans of the world from pollutants....magically disappeared all nukes from every country, made every gun in the world melt into nothing......healed every sick person and beast.... removed every corrupt leader/politician/dictator...

made the dying parts of Africa (and other lands) fertile with clean water for all and much food....so no-one starved....plus whatever else good you can think of...

AND THEN......wanted ME to call HIM GOD...... heck Id have no problem with that, he would have blown my mind for sure

But....he wont be tested. And Im such a cynic....

I don't believe that is what The Bible meant; about testing God. I think he wants us to question. SEEK and ye shall find. ASK and it shall be delivered. The problem isn't in non believers asking for evidence. The problem is, when a non believer asks, he has to be open to the possibility and maybe you are not? If your mind is made up about God's non-existence, what proof or evidence would suffice? Nothing.

[barbco196]

you see, if we cant test God, ask for proof etc....the choice is rather blunt..

Accept and believe without question...

Or die as an unbelieving sinner...

what a choice from a loving God...

Now if God was on earth tomorrow, waves his hand and stopped the Fukishima radiation poison and cleaned the oceans of the world from pollutants....magically disappeared all nukes from every country, made every gun in the world melt into nothing......healed every sick person and beast.... removed every corrupt leader/politician/dictator...

made the dying parts of Africa (and other lands) fertile with clean water for all and much food....so no-one starved....plus whatever else good you can think of...

AND THEN......wanted ME to call HIM GOD...... heck Id have no problem with that, he would have blown my mind for sure

But....he wont be tested. And Im such a cynic....

Clean up all the crap that WE CREATED?! Why should He? Just so we can find something else, He created, to ruin? No, it's up to us to figure out our earthly existence. If you were my child and I bought a brand new car for you and you are careless and negligent and wreck it: I wouldn't run out and buy you another new car. I'd tell you, "tough cookies, you made the choice to drive it carelessly and now, you have to deal with consequence." Because I LOVE YOU and understand that you are still young and will make mistakes; I will buy you another new car when you prove to me you can be responsible.

[psyche101]

I don't believe that is what The Bible meant; about testing God. I think he wants us to question. SEEK and ye shall find. ASK and it shall be delivered. The problem isn't in non believers asking for evidence. The problem is, when a non believer asks, he has to be open to the possibility and maybe you are not? If your mind is made up about God's non-existence, what proof or evidence would suffice? Nothing.

Problem being, the more we seek in earnest, the more God slips away. Science is corrosive to relgion. We now know he did not create man from dust, then a woman for a rib, we know he did not create the heavens and the earth - gravity did, and we know he did not say "Let there be light" when he created the Universe - it did not produce photons for a good 400,000 years.

Even sin - Adam created original sin, but the Church recognises that Adam is a metaphor - so where does that leave Jesus and why would he have to die on a cross for a metaphor?

Seeking, has found that God has gone from omnipotent to impotent. I really do not think he had that in mind - or did we?

Edited April 12, 2016 by psyche101

[barbco196]

Problem being, the more we seek in earnest, the more God slips away. Science is corrosive to relgion. We now know he did not create man from dust, then a woman for a rib, we know he did not create the heavens and the earth - gravity did, and we know he did not say "Let there be light" when he created the Universe - it did not produce photons for a good 400,000 years.

Even sin - Adam created original sin, but the Church recognises that Adam is a metaphor - so where does that leave Jesus and why would he have to die on a cross for a metaphor?

Seeking, has found that God has gone from omnipotent to impotent. I really do not think he had that in mind - or did we?

I don't believe any of those things you listed. What IS gravity? Is it tangible? If I ask you to show me gravity, you are going to show me the effects of gravity but no one has ever SEEN gravity. Same with photons. I would like for you to pick me a photon out of the air so I can hold it and see it. Can't do that either? Science isn't corrosive to anything. It is man that doesn't want to relinquish control and accept that there just might be something much more intelligent working behind the scenes.

[Habitat]

Now if God was on earth tomorrow, waves his hand and stopped the Fukishima radiation poison and cleaned the oceans of the world from pollutants....magically disappeared all nukes from every country, made every gun in the world melt into nothing......healed every sick person and beast.... removed every corrupt leader/politician/dictator...

made the dying parts of Africa (and other lands) fertile with clean water for all and much food....so no-one starved....plus whatever else good you can think of...

AND THEN......wanted ME to call HIM GOD...... heck Id have no problem with that, he would have blown my mind for sure

But....he wont be tested. And Im such a cynic....

Foolish presumption, imo, that this "marvellous" demonstration would be to the good, it would likely turn the world into a hell-house. You are talking about correcting largely man-made problems, your quick fix would soon revert to where things, were, the race would be on to get nukes back first and rule the world, etc. Without curtailment of free will, it is impossible, and I cannot imagine a world where free will is so restricted so that humans don't create problems.

[seeder]

you to pick me a photon out of the air so I can hold it and see it.

what air? How do you know its there? You cant hold it....or see it

..But still you live

[psyche101]

I don't believe any of those things you listed.

Belief in not required, they can be demonstrated.

What do you not believe?? That Man exists? That light took 400,000 years to shine? Evolution? What - or all of it?

What IS gravity? Is it tangible? If I ask you to show me gravity, you are going to show me the effects of gravity but no one has ever SEEN gravity. Same with photons.

Yes it is tangible it is the force that attracts regarding mass and distance. Can you see magnetism? Electricity? Not at all, but you can see how they work by effect. Same thing. Would you stick your finger in an electrical socket because you canot see electricity, and therefore should not believe in it? You do not stick your finger in a socket because you can see and know the effects that it will have. We can use it as a tangible object in equations, this is how we reach deep space - by using gravity to slingshot vehicles to tremendous speeds. Because we know Gravity, we used it to get the Voyager probe to the astounding speed of 17 Kilometers a second. Which is about 10 miles per second for you lot on the other side of the world.

It is also quantifiable mathematically.

The formula is F = G*((m sub 1*m sub 2)/r^2) where F is the force of attraction between the two bodies, G is the universal gravitational constant, m sub 1 is the mass of the first object, m sub 2 is the mass of the second object and r is the distance between the centers of each object.

What more could you want??

I would like for you to pick me a photon out of the air so I can hold it and see it. Can't do that either?

You cannot do it - a photon is actually massless, that is why it moves at the fastest speed nature will allow - 186,000 miles per second

But, you can detect a single photo and "hold it" in your vision or memory.

LINK - Photons detected without being destroyed

Pretty pic too?

Nah, you are the pretty picture Barb

Science isn't corrosive to anything. It is man that doesn't want to relinquish control and accept that there just might be something much more intelligent working behind the scenes.

I am afraid it is most certainly corrosive to relgion. We have fossils that prove that evolution is how we got here, we have predictable models of the Universe that confirm their validity through said predictions, whilst the Catholic Church says it believes in evolution, the Pope also said this:

LINK - Pope insists that Bible’s truth is found in its totality

Which contradicts the official stance of the Catholic Church.

Man does not have a say with regards to discoveries in science, so man has noone of the control you are speaking of, and science has been completely turned upside down, and it benefited from it - the best example being when we moved from theories of Phlogiston to the periodic table. We had no control over that, and we have no control over science, it iis observation, we can only report what it confirms for us. Way out of our hands that one.

[psyche101]

Clean up all the crap that WE CREATED?! Why should He?

Isn't he a benevolent God?

He showed himself to man allegedly two thousand years ago to clean up the crap we created when he allegedly obliterated Sodom and Gomorrah didn't he?

Why was he OK with allegedly showing himself to man 2,000 years ago, but not now?

Edited April 12, 2016 by psyche101

[Habitat]

You cannot do it - a photon is actually massless, that is why it moves at the fastest speed nature will allow - 186,000 miles per second

Nature "allows" ? Sounds like the old God of your catechism, imo. He creates, he allows, he has a commandment that light travel at 186,000 miles/sec. Why not 187,000 miles/ sec. I'll tell you why, "nature" moves in strange ways.

[psyche101]

Nature "allows" ? Sounds like the old God of your catechism, imo. He creates, he allows, he has a commandment that light travel at 186,000 miles/sec. Why not 187,000 miles/ sec. I'll tell you why, "nature" moves in strange ways.

Nah, because E=MC² is why.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

Nature "allows" ? Sounds like the old God of your catechism, imo. He creates, he allows, he has a commandment that light travel at 186,000 miles/sec. Why not 187,000 miles/ sec. I'll tell you why, "nature" moves in strange ways.

That's the speed of light in a vacuum. It can be slower depending on the environment in which light is traveling.

[barbco196]

Isn't he a benevolent God?

He showed himself to man allegedly two thousand years ago to clean up the crap we created when he allegedly obliterated Sodom and Gomorrah didn't he?

Why was he OK with allegedly showing himself to man 2,000 years ago, but not now?

Uh, those people all died. You want God to do the same to us? I'm not following.

[+Sherapy]

I don't believe any of those things you listed. What IS gravity? Is it tangible? If I ask you to show me gravity, you are going to show me the effects of gravity but no one has ever SEEN gravity. Same with photons. I would like for you to pick me a photon out of the air so I can hold it and see it. Can't do that either? Science isn't corrosive to anything. It is man that doesn't want to relinquish control and accept that there just might be something much more intelligent working behind the scenes.

Barbco, what you say could be true, but we just don't know. IMO, this is the most genuine answer --we don't know-- but it's okay to speculate, and to imagine, and to wonder, and to create whatever answer works as long as we don't get lost in our stories, and this applies to me too as an Athiest with an Agnostic heart-- I don't know either. I come to UM to keep myself honest. You have a good point, but you too are placing limitations on 'things' when you insist God is who you think he Is, IMHO.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Sherapy

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Faith is a feel good sensation that is often coupled with some type of expected results.

Oh, I don't doubt that. I often have those emotional results a lot. Whether they are bad or good, or something to take seriously or not, I feel it only for me, but like to think I can be there in a realistic sense, putting my 'faith' emotions on the back burner.

If that makes sense.

Who said God didn't/doesn't have an origin? OR, who says something has to have an origin? Why even entertain that question if you don't believe God exists? Maybe God originates from faith alone. Only when there is a belief in God, does God make 'his' presence known.

I don't think it's been established about God's birth or origin. I think the thing is, because one cannot establish it, shows how it all can easily be heavily debated of whether he exists to be mysterious and omniscient.

Now, if God needs faith to exist, then he is depended on us. Who is the omniscient then?

That would be interesting read: A thread titled "What is God?"...you should start it.

I feel it would be a long thread of very interesting ideas. I can just predict it.

Barbco, are you saying, for you your concept of God gives you a sense of belonging and gives your life purpose and meaning?

If so, that makes sense to me and I'd agree we are purpose driven for a good portion of our lives, and depending on the person will depend on the need to be around others and how it is met. There are those that require a lot of space, some that don't and if they don't get it they become off balance, and where I veer is that believing in God is the only thing that fulfills this or is the best choice. For me, belief in God is not on my path (in real time) and I don't think I have a less fulfilled or purposeless life, what are your thoughts on this?

In a sense, I can see Barbco feeling this way, as I feel my belief helps me connect. So, hence feel like I belong. I emphasize with her on this, but I also emphasize with you too as well, because it's the individual's path, and what their instinct and point of view that matches that helps you along the way.

I think, those individual experiences are what each of us brings here.

Yes and no. Harry exist as a physical thing, the movies for example. But as an actually being no. Same as the Harry Potter you imagined as you read the books. He existed as a figment of your imagination, first it was J.K. Rowlings. An artist gave him a form. Similar to how the gods work. Sure ideas can be connected to bundles of ideas and emotions. That's the power they have.

Well then this is where things get a bit betwixt and between. Is Harry Potter real, is or is Danial Radcliff real? Well Mr. Radcliff is where, but he might not want to get stereotyped as Harry. Before the movies, he was someone's imagination. I think of myself, as some sort of a writer, and I have created characters myself. They seem real to me, and I have an affiliation to them, but I can't hug them, like I can my kids. Where is the use in that? ( yeah, I made myself, betwixt and between )

So is it, one person's imagination someone else's best friend?

Uh, yes. It is a character, a young man, that lives in HarryPotterLand. When you say "Harry Potter", does an image of him appear in your mind? Yes? Then that is something you have attached a word and meaning towards, therefore it is real. At least to your 'psyche' he is real.

Then if that is true................

................ eeeeeeYES! Than Diesel from the 'Stephanie Plum' in betweeners, and the 'Wicked' books by Janet Evanovich is very real. All hunky, gruffy, musclely, crazy, drooling making, paranorally, parts of him!!! I always thought he was.

Ahhh, *sigh* .

I'll be back in a few......

OK, I'm back!

... an answer I remember most and well from an old monk I was relating this very question to :

"I am sorry I don't have a god in my possession that I can give to you, I belong to god god does not belong to the me ... god is not something you can buy, or give or take "

~

Now we're talking!

well what does your God say about testing him? Have you won millions after praying to him/her/it?

Well, my higher power says, 'Go for it!'

No, seriously, he says that. Or she did......................

[barbco196]

what air? How do you know its there? You cant hold it....or see it

..But still you live

That solidifies my point. You have come to learn through Science that air contains molecules of oxygen and that is what enables us to breathe. All just constructs of the mind of man. We have #1: noticed or observed something and #2: labelled it with a word that gives it meaning. We just trust that Science has the correct answer. When really, our 'air' could be comprised of giant clouds of gas expelled from the ass of our Creator.

Fact is, we don't know. We don't even know what gives everything we see, touch, or smell, it's mass. How is the concept of God any different?

[+Sherapy]

Oh, I don't doubt that. I often have those emotional results a lot. Whether they are bad or good, or something to take seriously or not, I feel it only for me, but like to think I can be there in a realistic sense, putting my 'faith' emotions on the back burner.

If that makes sense.

I don't think it's been established about God's birth or origin. I think the thing is, because one cannot establish it, shows how it all can easily be heavily debated of whether he exists to be mysterious and omniscient.

Now, if God needs faith to exist, then he is depended on us. Who is the omniscient then?

I feel it would be a long thread of very interesting ideas. I can just predict it.

In a sense, I can see Barbco feeling this way, as I feel my belief helps me connect. So, hence feel like I belong. I emphasize with her on this, but I also emphasize with you too as well, because it's the individual's path, and what their instinct and point of view that matches that helps you along the way.

I think, those individual experiences are what each of us brings here.

Well then this is where things get a bit betwixt and between. Is Harry Potter real, is or is Danial Radcliff real? Well Mr. Radcliff is where, but he might not want to get stereotyped as Harry. Before the movies, he was someone's imagination. I think of myself, as some sort of a writer, and I have created characters myself. They seem real to me, and I have an affiliation to them, but I can't hug them, like I can my kids. Where is the use in that? ( yeah, I made myself, betwixt and between )

So is it, one person's imagination someone else's best friend?

Then if that is true................

................ eeeeeeYES! Than Diesel from the 'Stephanie Plum' in betweeners, and the 'Wicked' books by Janet Evanovich is very real. All hunky, gruffy, musclely, crazy, drooling making, paranorally, parts of him!!! I always thought he was.

Ahhh, *sigh* .

I'll be back in a few......

OK, I'm back!

Now we're talking!

Well, my higher power says, 'Go for it!'

No, seriously, he says that. Or she did......................

Missy M., question: do you see you and me as different because we walk different roads? I can answer that and it is a resounding, no! And vice versa, it doesn't matter your path it matters what you have picked up along your journey and that is what I see; in fact, I see different journeys to the same destination. I learn tons from you and I am better for knowing you.

[seeder]

Just for fun...

What Does God Need With a Starship?

Kirk asks for proof...

what McCoy says...

Edited April 12, 2016 by seeder

[barbco196]

Barbco, what you say could be true, but we just don't know. IMO, this is the most genuine answer --we don't know-- but it's okay to speculate, and to imagine, and to wonder, and to create whatever answer works as long as we don't get lost in our stories, and this applies to me too as an Athiest with an Agnostic heart-- I don't know either. I come to UM to keep myself honest. You have a good point, but you too are placing limitations on 'things' when you insist God is who you think he Is, IMHO.

I hear ya. One thing you must know about me though: I'm a skeptic. I question everything. I pick everything apart until it almost vanishes into thin air. I didn't just fall into God's lap one day because I was desperate. HE came to me. He made his presence known. I just had to be willing to believe.

[psyche101]

Uh, those people all died. You want God to do the same to us? I'm not following.

God also spoke to Abraham (but did not show his face to him), Adam (although now recognised as a metaphor), And Job, and Ezekiel, And Moses...

But nobody in modern times. Unless you run with the Mormon faith, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Only in that town, Lot, and his family, bar his wife survived. So did the rest of the world. He cleaned up our crap, allegedly, and let the rest of the world move along.

[Habitat]

They say nature abhors a vacuum, nonsense statement really, but psychologically fairly accurate, when a commonsense question, that even (and especially) a child can ask, such as how is it that anything at all exists, you have a vacuum created, because reason fails to asnwer it, both actually and prospectively. Hence God gets a guernsey in the affair.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

That solidifies my point. You have come to learn through Science that air contains molecules of oxygen and that is what enables us to breathe. All just constructs of the mind of man.

No... they aren't just "constructs of the mind"--these things have been determined through rigorous experimentation and testing.

We have #1: noticed or observed something and #2: labelled it with a word that gives it meaning. We just trust that Science has the correct answer.

I think it goes much further than "trust" when something has been repeatedly observed and tested ad nauseam with the same results. At that point "trust" is irrelevant.

When really, our 'air' could be comprised of giant clouds of gas expelled from the ass of our Creator.

Yeah, except there is nothing to suggest that at all.

Fact is, we don't know. We don't even know what gives everything we see, touch, or smell, it's mass.

Yes, we do (also some things don't have mass [such as light], as psyche pointed out)--at least a "best guess", so to speak.

How is the concept of God any different?

How is the concept of God any different from what? You need to be more clear... I find some of your questions/statements ambiguous and confusing.

[+Sherapy]

I hear ya. One thing you must know about me though: I'm a skeptic. I question everything. I pick everything apart until it almost vanishes into thin air. I didn't just fall into God's lap one day because I was desperate. HE came to me. He made his presence known. I just had to be willing to believe.

I understand, and it is always good to question; regardless, whether you believe in God or not.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Sherapy

[barbco196]

God also spoke to Abraham (but did not show his face to him), Adam (although now recognised as a metaphor), And Job, and Ezekiel, And Moses...

But nobody in modern times. Unless you run with the Mormon faith, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Only in that town, Lot, and his family, bar his wife survived. So did the rest of the world. He cleaned up our crap, allegedly, and let the rest of the world move along.

Are you sure about that? I know plenty of accounts in modern times where God has spoken to a human. Of course, it's not documented in a book that millions have read. Not yet.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

I hear ya. One thing you must know about me though: I'm a skeptic. I question everything. I pick everything apart until it almost vanishes into thin air. I didn't just fall into God's lap one day because I was desperate. HE came to me. He made his presence known. I just had to be willing to believe.

Highly unlikely. The more likely explanation is that your mind produced this "presence" during the period of high stress as a way for "self-comfort", so to speak. Depending on the extent of the intensity of said experience it could also be explained as heightened activity in the temporal lobe.

[psyche101]

That solidifies my point. You have come to learn through Science that air contains molecules of oxygen and that is what enables us to breathe. All just constructs of the mind of man. We have #1: noticed or observed something and #2: labelled it with a word that gives it meaning. We just trust that Science has the correct answer. When really, our 'air' could be comprised of giant clouds of gas expelled from the ass of our Creator.

Fact is, we don't know. We don't even know what gives everything we see, touch, or smell, it's mass. How is the concept of God any different?

No Barb, fact is we do know.

We even know how water comes to be, we understand the cycles of precipitation and can predict them. We know why it rains, we know where rain comes from. Same with Air, we know how it came to be here on earth and how organisms took hold of that and used it to their advantage. Dry air is primarily made up of nitrogen (78.09%) and oxygen (20.95%). The remaining 1% is made up of argon (0.93%), carbon dioxide (0.039% as of 2010) and other trace gases (0.003%). Water vapor (water in its gaseous state) is also present in the atmosphere in varying amounts, by up to 2%.

This has nothing to do with us anymore than if you saw a Bus drive past. Nobody can say "you made that bus drive past" it just did, and you happened to be standing near its trajectory.

What gives things mass is the Higgs Bosun, and that is why we built the LHC, so we could specifically find that elusive "God Particle"

And we did it.

LINK - LHC confirms we’ve definitely discovered the Higgs boson, and (sadly) it behaves exactly as the Standard Model predicts

Not only did we find it, we predicted this discovery back in the 60's. That is why science works - the models stand up to real world scrutiny and prove their predictions. Unlike relgion, we did not start with the Higgs and then seek proof to bolster that idea, we have a model that we build on as understanding grows.

The concept of God is not only a poor model to describe the Universe that canot offer real predictions, it has simply been outdated with new discoveries that explain the Universe far better than the concept of God does. Gad was the same, once a good theory to explain the Universe, that theory is now well passed it's used by date. It has been superseded by better information that is more sound as we can test it, and not have to rely on verbal assurances, or personal perceptions of what we expect.