Is a lack of faith disturbing?

[Habitat]

Nothing is ever certain.

Is that statement certain to be correct, in a world where nothing is ever certain ?

[+Sherapy]

Matthew 7:7-8:

7 "Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened.

It's from the Sermon on the Mount. I take this meaning from it:

If you don't ask questions you will never have answers.

If you do not look for truth, you may never find it.

If you do not knock on the door of opportunity, it may never open to you.

Thank you for putting your interpretation, Hammer.

Well said!

[+Sherapy]

Made me think of this classic scene:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha....

[+Nuclear Wessel]

Special in the eye of God. His most precious creation.

And you know this how?

[barbco196]

And you know this how?

A little bird told me.

[psyche101]

Special in the eye of God. His most precious creation.

Religion does state that, which just gives us false superiority complexes. I was watching an Aussie the other night who is in East Jerusalem with the Zionists. They are there illegally according to International law, and live in horrible conditions nest to Muslim Neighbours. They throw chunks of concrete, fire guns at each other, and sadly, children become victims of this violence and die.

Why? Because it it the holy land, and no way will they let Muslims defile it.

Who's God has right to that land? Which people are special?

[Stubbly_Dooright]

How can something that is empty fill itself?

Vacuum?!

Matthew 7:7-8:

7 "Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened.

It's from the Sermon on the Mount. I take this meaning from it:

If you don't ask questions you will never have answers.

If you do not look for truth, you may never find it.

If you do not knock on the door of opportunity, it may never open to you.

Or, if ya wanna retail it down,

'there is no such thing as a stupid question.'

Not really no one is a special snowflake. The way I see it nothing matters. I often float between nihilism and existentialism.

Although, I can see your point here, I like that term. I'm going to use that term. I'm going to call certain people in my life 'a special snowflake'.

It just has a ring to it.

We already know proof will never exist. Proof from one person to another, anyways. I can be 100% certain I didn't conjure God. I was a devout atheist!

That should be good enough for you.

I think, that if anyone is going to have a problem with others, because of their own belief or lack of one, then they are the problem.

I always thought, that every belief system, ( and the ethical situation ) has a core value of being good toward others. I pretty much feel that was some form of a blueprint for everyone. Just like someone, don't pester them.

But yet, there seems to be a lot of pestering. There should not be any pestering. *shrugs*

[barbco196]

Religion does state that, which just gives us false superiority complexes. I was watching an Aussie the other night who is in East Jerusalem with the Zionists. They are there illegally according to International law, and live in horrible conditions nest to Muslim Neighbours. They throw chunks of concrete, fire guns at each other, and sadly, children become victims of this violence and die.

Why? Because it it the holy land, and no way will they let Muslims defile it.

Who's God has right to that land? Which people are special?

No. Man does that. Not religion. Jesus teaches humility. If humanity would just follow what he came to teach, imagine what kind of world this would be.

[GoldenWolf]

Jesus teaches humility.

Let your enemy stomp you, do not defend yourself:

Matthew 5:44

But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!

Riiiiiiggghhhhtttt!!!!!

[psyche101]

No. Man does that. Not religion. Jesus teaches humility. If humanity would just follow what he came to teach, imagine what kind of world this would be.

What about this teaching form the New Testament?

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Religion is the reason for the superiority complex though. It provides it. It says to the Jews You are the people of God, It says the same to Christians, it says the same to Muslims, how is that not going to further conflict amongst men?

These people do not even seem to care if kids die in the conflict, they feel they have to protect the Holy Land, which is also why the Ayatollah exiled the Shah under direct threat of death just as Islam was heading for reformation. They outright state they must do this for God, there is no other reason, even though their own kids are suffering for it.

Which reminds me of JW, who also let kids die for God, which is far too common.

William Lane Craig had the Gall to say that the Pharisee children that God destroyed were done a kindness because they then went to heaven!!!

You are too quick to defend relgion and throw mankind under a bus, that is why I see so much more for humanity in secular understanding.

Edited April 15, 2016 by psyche101

[eight bits]

barbco

I can be 100% certain I didn't conjure God. I was a devout atheist!

There's a word for that, enantiodromia.

Habitat

Is that statement certain to be correct, in a world where nothing is ever certain ?

No, it's just something he believes with high confidence, probably because there is no known counterexample over the five millennia or so for which we have records. Math looked good for a while, then the 1930's happened.

Why do you ask? Did you think you had caught him in a paradox? Oh, how special is that?

GmG, maybe, but a surprise while reading...

Coincidentally, I was reading Marcus Aurelius yesterday. Marcus was a devout polytheist, skeptic of Christianity, and all-around level-headed guy. Nevertheless, at the end of the third book of his Meditations, he wrote about being disturbed by those who lack faith in his gods,

... to have the intelligence that guides to the things which appear suitable belongs also to those who do not believe in the gods, and who betray their country, and do their impure deeds when they have shut the doors....

http://classics.mit....ns.3.three.html

There seems to be an intuition, then, that isn't peculiarly Christian or Muslim, that people who lack faith in some kind of supernatural watchman are capable of anything.

A curious datum.

[Habitat]

There's a word for that, enantiodromia.

I think that might be the case if she was switching based on a whim, but that rather insults her powers of perception, if she has had a convincing demonstration of some kind. Experience trumps speculation.

[eight bits]

Habitat

I think that might be the case if she was switching based on a whim, but that rather insults her powers of perception, if she has had a convincing demonstration of some kind. Experience trumps speculation.

You're our expert on Jung. Enantiodromia doesn't connote whimsy, as you must know since you've read him.

Right?

[Habitat]

Habitat

You're our expert on Jung. Enantiodromia doesn't connote whimsy, as you must know since you've read him.

Right?

I never professed to be an expert on Jung, but call it anything you like, if she has had something happen to change her position that is overt and unambiguous, it is arguably outside the realm of psychological interpretation. Depending on what actually happened.

[eight bits]

Habitat

I never professed to be an expert on Jung, but call it anything you like, if she has had something happen to change her position that is overt and unambiguous, it is arguably outside the realm of psychological interpretation. Depending on what actually happened.

It doesn't matter to the argument she made, which was

I can be 100% certain I didn't conjure God. I was a devout atheist!

Being an atheist doesn't prevent "conjuring" whatever god.

What actually did happen is another question altogether. To know that would require facts, not a faulty inference based on the incompatibility of her earlier and later opinions.

On another point, no aspect of cognitive perfomance is "outside the realm of psychological interpretation."

[Habitat]

Being an atheist doesn't prevent "conjuring" whatever god.

What actually did happen is another question altogether. To know that would require facts, not a faulty inference based on the incompatibility of her earlier and later opinions.

On another point, no aspect of cognitive perfomance is "outside the realm of psychological interpretation."

If a dog bites me on the aarse, I don't wonder about the validity of my "psychological interpretation" of the event. For all I know, barbco's experience could be as compelling, or more. We will never know.

[eight bits]

Habitat

If you paid more attention to psychology, then perhaps fewer dogs would bite you. Or perhaps they would bite you in more comfortable places.

In any case, it was the other member's argument which I addressed, and yes, we do know that that argument is defective. Its conclusion doesn't follow from the observation she made.

The specific facts of the case are her business until and unless she chooses to share them. I have no comment about those.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

What about this teaching form the New Testament?

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Religion is the reason for the superiority complex though. It provides it. It says to the Jews You are the people of God, It says the same to Christians, it says the same to Muslims, how is that not going to further conflict amongst men?

These people do not even seem to care if kids die in the conflict, they feel they have to protect the Holy Land, which is also why the Ayatollah exiled the Shah under direct threat of death just as Islam was heading for reformation. They outright state they must do this for God, there is no other reason, even though their own kids are suffering for it.

Which reminds me of JW, who also let kids die for God, which is far too common.

William Lane Craig had the Gall to say that the Pharisee children that God destroyed were done a kindness because they then went to heaven!!!

You are too quick to defend relgion and throw mankind under a bus, that is why I see so much more for humanity in secular understanding.

You know, how I am on this. I agree with both of you. I just think it depends on the man or woman, they either have it in them to be bad or good.

I will grant you that, about bible (holy books ) quotes and that from what I understand, they are not all peaceful and innocent directions.

I do have to reflect, on the ability ( or shall I say the lack of ability sometimes ) of man or woman, to come to a conclusion right away. Things like this, can be their door to change, but not for the right reasons. Which, I think, could lead them to behave not so nicely.

I just wonder though, if thought about by a certain *ahem* higher power, ( if it is real ) maybe another 'messenger' should walk the earth with a message? *shrugs*

barbco

There's a word for that, enantiodromia.

Kind of reminds me of the reverse side to each Tarot card's description.

GmG, maybe, but a surprise while reading...

Coincidentally, I was reading Marcus Aurelius yesterday. Marcus was a devout polytheist, skeptic of Christianity, and all-around level-headed guy. Nevertheless, at the end of the third book of his Meditations, he wrote about being disturbed by those who lack faith in his gods,

http://classics.mit....ns.3.three.html

There seems to be an intuition, then, that isn't peculiarly Christian or Muslim, that people who lack faith in some kind of supernatural watchman are capable of anything.

A curious datum.

First, I've learned two new words today. Thanks 8bits.

Second, why is it, some have to get so upset and nosy in other's business? Even more so, when they admit what others do they do in private behind closed doors! Seriously, it describes to me as a combination of a superiority complex mixed in with paranoia.

If a dog bites me on the aarse, I don't wonder about the validity of my "psychological interpretation" of the event. For all I know, barbco's experience could be as compelling, or more. We will never know.

She would. And she is alive and well, and comes on here to put her side of things, for the meat of the discussions.

[XenoFish]

No. Man does that. Not religion. Jesus teaches humility. If humanity would just follow what he came to teach, imagine what kind of world this would be.

Yes mankind does horrible things. All we need is the right nudge, right motivation to be heroes or villains. If we take Jesus as being nothing more than just someone who taught a different simpler path then I could easily understand him. Yet giving the god-man status it makes it less believable.

It's the whole disbelief = Hell fire aspect that bothers me. I think that's one of the reason alternative paths always appealed to me. Might also be a reason why I get along well with those who follow them. I can't even honestly define my spiritual beliefs because I don't think there is a title that would fight. Agnostic Apatheist, Existentialist, or Atheist?

I can understand the need for a personal faith if it is under then context of being self help/improving. Prayer as a means of venting feelings or talking things out when no one is there. Especially in a non-judgmental way. Even if that belief gives you hope and motivation. I can get this point of view.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/more-mortal/200908/is-religion-good-your-health

I can agree with what's in the link.

However it's when taken to extremes and excess that it becomes very dangerous. Not only to the individual but to everyone. If you're willing to hate and judge someone because they do not believe the same as you, and your religion forbids that, it's time for a reality check.

[Podo]

Lack of faith seems like the default status. Very few people create cosmologies and mythologies on their own that they're willing to die for. We must be taught that level of devotion and belief, generally via indoctrinating a child.

[barbco196]

What about this teaching form the New Testament?

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Religion is the reason for the superiority complex though. It provides it. It says to the Jews You are the people of God, It says the same to Christians, it says the same to Muslims, how is that not going to further conflict amongst men?

These people do not even seem to care if kids die in the conflict, they feel they have to protect the Holy Land, which is also why the Ayatollah exiled the Shah under direct threat of death just as Islam was heading for reformation. They outright state they must do this for God, there is no other reason, even though their own kids are suffering for it.

Which reminds me of JW, who also let kids die for God, which is far too common.

William Lane Craig had the Gall to say that the Pharisee children that God destroyed were done a kindness because they then went to heaven!!!

You are too quick to defend relgion and throw mankind under a bus, that is why I see so much more for humanity in secular understanding.

That letter was to a church at the time, living in and actively committing sin. He's asking for them to repent. Nothing harsh in that verse.

I'm not defending any religion. I'm defending Jesus. I don't agree with the idea of religion. I'm not going to pretend to understand what motivates those people to commit murder. My God and his son, Jesus, teach that murder is never acceptable. Apparently they aren't getting the same message. I leave the judgement to God.

[Grandpa Greenman]

What about this teaching form the New Testament?

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

That letter was to a church at the time, living in and actively committing sin. He's asking for them to repent. Nothing harsh in that verse.

I'm not defending any religion. I'm defending Jesus. I don't agree with the idea of religion. I'm not going to pretend to understand what motivates those people to commit murder. My God and his son, Jesus, teach that murder is never acceptable. Apparently they aren't getting the same message. I leave the judgement to God.

I don't know, that seems kind of harsh to me. What do the children have to do with whether or not the parent is faithful or not. It also seems God is talking in first person though his author in this one. How do you separate God, Jesus from religion? How does one know the mind of God if you don't use the guide book?

I don't separate my Pagan practice from a religion. Even though I don't use gods in it, it is a religion none the less. Though, I will admit it has degraded down to circling with friends, thumping my drum, drinking mead, and dancing round the fire. I'm considered a rather old soul by a lot of my Pagan buds, so they don't expect much out of me.

[XenoFish]

Perhaps if your lack of faith disturbs them, then maybe they are unsure of their own faith?

[Mr Walker]

Lack of faith seems like the default status. Very few people create cosmologies and mythologies on their own that they're willing to die for. We must be taught that level of devotion and belief, generally via indoctrinating a child.

As discussed before this is known to be factually incorrect.

A child may be taught specific beliefs and values, both explicitly and implicitly by its family and society, however totally untutored or unexposed to such beliefs and concepts, every human child is forced by the nature of its cognitive function to construct its own belief system, involving gods or magical eneties /agents.

Only as it gains more knowledge and wider experince of its world/environment, is it able to see its world in "non magical" ways.

So humans are born with a cognitive pattern which requires at first imagination and creativity to fill gaps in knowledge. This pattern is kept throughout our lives, making humans susceptible to belief, but as we get older we can learn other ways of thinking such as logic To do this however we also need much more data/knowledge and experience than is available to a child's mind.

It is a consequence of the fact that human minds learn to think and process, question and seek answers, long before they contain the knowledge to reach factual conclusions, or the correct answers to the questions raised in their minds.

hence even the young children of atheist who pass on their beliefs to their children still have inner beliefs and faiths.until they are older. They construct and solidify them very ealry on, from within the workings of their own minds.

Humans DO NOT learn about the hypothetical existence of gods from an earlier generation. We construct the belief in them, and, even our understandings of them, from within our own minds as very young children.

So actually EVERY human child constructs an inner cosmology and mythologies, almost form the time it is born and begins to think about the world around it.

This is its mind's response to the myriad of mysteries which it observes every day, and its mind's attempts to process and make sense of what it observes.

A human being can be ready to die for ANY belief it holds; from love of family, to love of country, to love of god, and even to love of money.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Mr Walker

[barbco196]

Lack of faith seems like the default status. Very few people create cosmologies and mythologies on their own that they're willing to die for. We must be taught that level of devotion and belief, generally via indoctrinating a child.

I had no one teaching, guiding, or leading me on my path. My daughter, the same. Although I was atheist from the time she was born until she moved out at 18, I never discussed God, and she came to believe all on her own. I let her choose her own path.