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Is the entire universe just a simulation ?

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Rlyeh

I don't have a source, but I remember reading somewhere on line that we are theorized to live in a holographic universe. One reason if I remember correctly that this theory was put forth was that the universe is expanding, but not like you are pulling a rubber band, rather it is expanding incrementally, almost digitally. And another article I read stated that information cannot be destroyed so that at the event horizon of a black hole all this information is "digitized" on the event horizon itself and thus never actually lost.

Which is a completely different hypothesis to the simulation argument.

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Habitat

I don't see much that is compelling in the simulation theory, what is compelling for a lot of people is that it brings their favourite speculation, super-intelligent aliens, into gainful employment. I mean, what else is a super-intelligent alien going to do, to justify its existence ? But it only pushes the God theory back one step of causation.

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danielost

Well it begs the question, who is 'running' the simulation? If they are *Aliens* then who are they, where do they come from? If it's a Creator, than is He/She omnisicient, omnipotent ect? While I'm not a big fan of the simulation hypothesis it's still better than some of the nihilistic views promoted by hardcore atheists.

maybe we are or the one we call god. our dna is computer code. not ours but, someone's. I know many will argue it isn't but they don't have a mind that is open enough to see it.

dna controls everything that our bodies do. we even have bugs in the system. we call them viruses, cancer bacteria.

Edited by danielost

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LV-426

Well it begs the question, who is 'running' the simulation? If they are *Aliens* then who are they, where do they come from? If it's a Creator, than is He/She omnisicient, omnipotent ect? While I'm not a big fan of the simulation hypothesis it's still better than some of the nihilistic views promoted by hardcore atheists.

One of the theories is that it's our future selves who create the simulation, or rather "future humans" if we are only part of the simulation ourselves.

The primary question to ask is this; if humans ever have the technology to create such a simulation, would they do it? Given everything we see in society now, I firmly believe they would, and I don't think they'd be overly concerned about the feelings of "sim me" or "sim you." Or maybe some would, but others would likely enjoy pushing their "sims" to the limit to test them.

It also creates an interesting scenario of us, as "sims", creating simulations ourselves - sims within sims!

I think all of this stuff, along with concepts such as a multiverse, are great. I don't particularly subscribe to any of them, but they are far more interesting concepts than anything religion throws at people. And no... let's not turn this into a religious debate. There are other sections better suited to that! :)

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Habitat

It also creates an interesting scenario of us, as "sims", creating simulations ourselves - sims within sims!

There could be nested "sims" as far as the eye can see. What a strange hobby.

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Codenwarra

The compiler of the first English dictionary, Dr. Johnson was told of a similar theory back in the 1700s, lacking the computers of course. He kicked a stone and said "I refute it thus".

Personally I think it's twaddle.

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Leonardo

I remember watching an episode of 'Through the Wormhole' on the subject.

I can't remember exactly, and I'm no scientist, but I think the basic principle is that following Moore's law, if computing power continues to grow exponentially, it's a matter of 'when' not 'if' simulation technology would be possible.

Picture our descendants playing 'The Sims' in a century or so :D

Moore's Law is relevant to the processing power of a CPU, but it has no direct relevance to the question of AI. The assumption that AI can arise when processing power reaches a certain level is just that, an assumption, and it has no basis of fact or science behind it.

Yes, a certain level of processing power is necessary in order to create a realistic virtual environment, but that environment has no intelligence, no "consciousness", and cannot ask questions about it's own existence.

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Habitat

The compiler of the first English dictionary, Dr. Johnson was told of a similar theory back in the 1700s, lacking the computers of course. He kicked a stone and said "I refute it thus".

Personally I think it's twaddle.

Still, the theoretician sounds like an original.

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lightly

I'm not arguing against your idea, but perhaps infinite variables are a consequence of the simulation and therefore not an element of the original programing. For instance, a sim would not necessarily program the consequences of natural selection on planet earth, the results of natural selection would emerge naturally out of the basic program.

i guess i don't understand computers enough to understand how anything can emerge out of a basic program. For instance, how would a computer create the situation where an asteroid might smash into the earth and destroy all "simulated" life.

Edited by lightly

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Habitat

It is difficult to avoid the impression that the computer simulation universe theory is an artefact of the ubiquity of computers in the modern world, and the popular science themes of cosmology and space aliens, all melded together. In a different age, different speculations.

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LV-426

Moore's Law is relevant to the processing power of a CPU, but it has no direct relevance to the question of AI. The assumption that AI can arise when processing power reaches a certain level is just that, an assumption, and it has no basis of fact or science behind it.

Yes, a certain level of processing power is necessary in order to create a realistic virtual environment, but that environment has no intelligence, no "consciousness", and cannot ask questions about it's own existence.

I'm simply relating the basic concept as it was presented :D

The question of intelligence and consciousness is a deep one, and it'll draw in people from all corners of UM, from both scientific and religious perspectives. Personally though, I look at it like this; if humans originated from a single-celled organism, billions of years ago, then at that time "life" obviously wasn't self-aware. Who's to say that artificial intelligence wouldn't undergo the same evolution, potentially with a significantly shorter timescale due to "processing power?"

I have no answers, but I find the questions interesting :)

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StarMountainKid

Wouldn't it be boring for a Sim Creator to sit around and watch our mundane everyday lives? If the Sim Creator is super-intelligent, would creating a simulated universe really be intellectually stimulating? What would be the motive for such a creature to do this?

Let's say the sim universe is a duplicate of the Sim Creator's universe. Perhaps we humans are too stupid to be interesting. Maybe the Sim Creator is looking for sims who have evolved to become more intelligent than the Sim Creator Itself. The It could talk to them to learn more about it's own universe.

The more intelligent sims would be shocked at first, communicating with their Creator, but maybe they'd be grateful for their lives the Creator has given them. If the Sim Creator suddenly appeared in our sky telling us we're all sims, I'd be grateful It had given me life!

So, if we're all sims, that's still better than nothing.

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GlitterRose

Well it begs the question, who is 'running' the simulation? If they are *Aliens* then who are they, where do they come from? If it's a Creator, than is He/She omnisicient, omnipotent ect? While I'm not a big fan of the simulation hypothesis it's still better than some of the nihilistic views promoted by hardcore atheists.

Well, if such a creator existed, it would be omniscient. If you are creating a program and every element within it, you know what you have in mind already.

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GlitterRose

Wouldn't it be boring for a Sim Creator to sit around and watch our mundane everyday lives? If the Sim Creator is super-intelligent, would creating a simulated universe really be intellectually stimulating? What would be the motive for such a creature to do this?

Let's say the sim universe is a duplicate of the Sim Creator's universe. Perhaps we humans are too stupid to be interesting. Maybe the Sim Creator is looking for sims who have evolved to become more intelligent than the Sim Creator Itself. The It could talk to them to learn more about it's own universe.

The more intelligent sims would be shocked at first, communicating with their Creator, but maybe they'd be grateful for their lives the Creator has given them. If the Sim Creator suddenly appeared in our sky telling us we're all sims, I'd be grateful It had given me life!

So, if we're all sims, that's still better than nothing.

That's why I figured if it was actually true, it would be a juvenile higher being with cheetos and an energy drink on its desk.

"God's a kid with an ant farm, lady...he's not planning anything."

Name that movie.

Edited by ChaosRose
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Leonardo

I'm simply relating the basic concept as it was presented :D

The question of intelligence and consciousness is a deep one, and it'll draw in people from all corners of UM, from both scientific and religious perspectives. Personally though, I look at it like this; if humans originated from a single-celled organism, billions of years ago, then at that time "life" obviously wasn't self-aware. Who's to say that artificial intelligence wouldn't undergo the same evolution, potentially with a significantly shorter timescale due to "processing power?"

I have no answers, but I find the questions interesting :)

Intelligence isn't an efficient solution to the problem of survival of species, but evolution isn't about efficiency - it's about effectiveness. Intelligence is a result of ever-increasing complexity, which is an inefficient but effective survival strategy. Non-biological systems (machines) operate under a different paradigm, however. They are about efficiency, and the simpler the system, the more efficient it is.

Mentioning AI and evolution in the same context is oxymoronic, as machines can't "evolve". It is us, the biological systems which create the machines that "evolve" them.

That's why I figured if it was actually true, it would be a juvenile higher being with cheetos and an energy drink on its desk.

"God's a kid with an ant farm, lady...he's not planning anything."

Name that movie.

Constantine.

Edited by Leonardo

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danielost

Intelligence isn't an efficient solution to the problem of survival of species, but evolution isn't about efficiency - it's about effectiveness. Intelligence is a result of ever-increasing complexity, which is an inefficient but effective survival strategy. Non-biological systems (machines) operate under a different paradigm, however. They are about efficiency, and the simpler the system, the more efficient it is.

Mentioning AI and evolution in the same context is oxymoronic, as machines can't "evolve". It is us, the biological systems which create the machines that "evolve" them.

Constantine.

we ecolve our machines. god evolves his life forms.

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paperdyer

Maybe the scientists watched the old movie "The Thirteenth Floor" and the Matrix trilogy prior to their debate. If we are a simulation and the keepers of the simulation find out we know we are a simulation, will they hit the reset button?

When we make simulations, are we making a simulation of a simulation made by a simulation?

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Patient Zero

I accept the likelihood that we are a simulation. Does it matter if we are or aren't?

Here, here!

Couldn't agree more.

If it's all just a sim, please, overlords, upload Dinosaurs again, that should make thing's interesting.

:yes:

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OverSword

How so? Waaaay more complex thingy, having "extremely high" probability? Does not compute.

If you accept the premise that given the means simulated realities would be created that would mean that there would be thousands or possibly millions of simulated realities and only one true reality, therefore the mathematical chances of existing in the true reality are slim compared to the chances of being part of a simulation.

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OverSword

I don't see much that is compelling in the simulation theory, what is compelling for a lot of people is that it brings their favourite speculation, super-intelligent aliens, into gainful employment. I mean, what else is a super-intelligent alien going to do, to justify its existence ? But it only pushes the God theory back one step of causation.

Nobody has mentioned super intelligent aliens. Also simulated realities by no means eliminate the existence of God.

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OverSword

The compiler of the first English dictionary, Dr. Johnson was told of a similar theory back in the 1700s, lacking the computers of course. He kicked a stone and said "I refute it thus".

Personally I think it's twaddle.

Have you ever kicked a rock in a first person shooter? I have.
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OverSword

i guess i don't understand computers enough to understand how anything can emerge out of a basic program. For instance, how would a computer create the situation where an asteroid might smash into the earth and destroy all "simulated" life.

Mathematical formula. The same way you do anything with a computer.
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lightly

ok, thanks. one more question.. how could a computer simulated universe create the thoughts in our minds?

*

Edited by lightly
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OverSword

ok, thanks. one more question.. how could a computer simulated universe create the thoughts in our minds?

*

Ever heard the expression that you can't have an original idea?

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nothingliz

It's real. What people need to understand is that creation isn't just the 5 senses. We exist across multiple dimensions on many earths often times on many other planets appearing as other people. Our destinies are beyond earth and we fulfill them in different realities. We are more than we realize, we just have to realize that Jehovah and Jesus has made this possible, our lives are not dreams, do not waste them. There are many beliefs out there about what the universe is, but I've seen up close and personal how much more vast and awesome this universe is that Jehovah and Jesus created.

Edited by nothingliz

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