Forgiveness

[SHaYap]

When you forgive yourself with truthfulness , it is a step towards awakening ~ the key is not the forgiving part because under certain circumstances and conditions it is very easy , for example in situations where it is advantageous or rewarding ... but the forgiveness is not truthful so the forgiving is not truly forgiveness and conditional and only hold when those conditions are upheld ...

Only truthful forgiveness of oneself can one realise that :

~

because ...

~

~

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Life is about systems thinking. To avoid encountering any problems you have to relate to the things in your environment properly. The only way you can achieve such a balance is by adapting your patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving to allow you to relate to those external things properly.

I feel that it is that. I think, that with my belief, and also experiences along the way, I tend to practice that systems thinking. And of course, it goes with the same ole thinking, the older, the wiser.

When it comes to dealing with toxic people you have to start by noticing what negative patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving they create in you. Then reflect on how these make you react. You'll discover your own bruised ego is at the centre of how you respond to them. It makes you react by standing up for yourself, arguing with them, raging at them, even hitting them if they wind you up quite badly.

The thing to realise about toxic people is they're all attention seekers. They are experts in pressing peoples buttons in such a way that their ego's force them to react. And despite what you might think every single one of them is fully aware of the game that they're playing. They press your buttons, your ego makes you react, and hey presto you're providing the attention seeker with their favourite drug (attention). Once you've provided this junkie with what they're after they will come again and again for their repeat fix.

Ahhh, I find this very profound. Now, I wouldn't say this about everyone who causes a wrong to someone else, but I think you have something there with some. As a couple of previous posters in this thread have mentioned, sometimes there are reasons some cause the behavior that wrongs people. I think these people do not have the 'attention getting' behavior you speak of.

While others, I think they do. I think they are also the ones who hurt without being provoked by outside means. ( I like this, this thread seems to also breakdown the behavior and split into levels the various wrong doers, as well as the wronged. )

And yes, sometimes, it's them one cannot change their outlook on such people. It's like giving into them, if I'm getting this right.

You deal with toxic people by totally ignoring them.

I would think that this is harder done than side, I also feel that it's correct, ignoring them is the best advice. And while there seems to be an argument about not cutting off the relationship, and the wrongness of not continuing the relationship ( in which I see ignoring one's inner wish to disassociate themselves from them ) I think that's wrong to consider staying in the relationship ( what ever the relationship is ) and allow yourself to continue being hurt and ignoring the previous pain deep down.

This means having identified the negative patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving they cause in you along with how this bruises your ego you override your urge to want to react to them. Ignore them instead. Do not engage with them in any way shape or form. Forgiveness is about you not the toxic people. By working yourself into the frame of mind where you forgive them it helps you override your urge to want to react to them.

And this is a recurring theme I find appearing in this thread. ( nothing I find wrong with that. This thread is here to identify a pattern and exploring it. ) The forgiveness is for you, for the wronged person.

Is it really? Giving the person the ok that they hurt you, really helping you in the long run?

What if you don't mean it, telling yourself you forgive, and now you have conflicting feelings because you still have the pain and the deep negative feelings from that of the other person.

So, in a sense, and I'm just asking as a thought provoking speaking piece. What if the forgiveness, you personally feel or force yourself to feel, is not healthy?

And another thing, is one forcing themselves to forgive or do they actually mean it?

That's is what, I think is the million dollar thought and question here.

Are there who, be in a religious or a secular sense, forgiving because they think or are told, it's the right thing to do?

And what were the results, or the ramifications to that?

And are there anyone who forgave, because they automatically felt that? Of course, be it in religious or secular sense.

Some kind of a difference there.

After ignoring people like that for about 3 months you'll discover they no longer have the same effect on you. Ignoring them has become easy.

Well, yes, I agree. I think, the pain does subside too. Of course, if that person decides they don't want to be ignored, what should one do, to get a message across to them?

RabidMongoose, thanks for replying.

I find this an awesome response.

When you forgive yourself with truthfulness , it is a step towards awakening ~ the key is not the forgiving part because under certain circumstances and conditions it is very easy , for example in situations where it is advantageous or rewarding ... but the forgiveness is not truthful so the forgiving is not truly forgiveness and conditional and only hold when those conditions are upheld ...

Hey third eye, thank you.

Ok, is what you're saying like what I have been saying? The thing with lying to yourself to forgive because others tell you so?

So, I would like to know, what is your definition of how the circumstances and conditions allow it to be very easy? I have a very hard time seeing this, and I guess I don't see examples.

Do have any examples, or experiences where this type of circumstance and environment occurs, and it results in that type of peace?

I do want to make note, I find it interesting in the thought process of there being an awakening. Does this occur in everyone in this?

I know, I may have had this in the past, but only because of how I did this. In a black or white way of looking at it, just so I don't go to jail violently hurting someone, I find another way to deal with my pain, resentment, and hurt, so I don't have to.

I can see this is being beneficial to you, because you don't go to jail!

So, in another sense, it seems to forgive someone else, is suppose to help you. The thing is, there is still the wrong doer, and forgiving them might not be beneficial to them. They need to see what they did, and see how the ramifications on the wronged, to see they take the responsibility of their actions.

Also, is it really peace, when someone considered the wrong doer differently from what the truth is?

I still see this forgiveness as a way to rid of the negative feelings as, at the most, a short term solution.

Like you said, one has to mean it, and if they don't, it is making it worse, to come back to really hurt.

Only truthful forgiveness of oneself can one realise that :

~

Is there any examples that this does work honestly, with nothing coming back to haunt someone?

because ...

~

~

And that's a good gif as well. Holding on to anger and such is bad for you. You see, I don't advocate to holding on to the negative and painful emotions ( unless you're a diehard masochist, and that's a different story.... or thread! I just don't think 'forgiving' the other does what it says it does.

They way I have always practiced it as, actually knowing you have an acknowledge thought process about the other person, are you dealing in the reality of how you feel. Knowing that, you then deal with it. I have found, that when I have acknowledged the wrongs and the wrongness of the other and know what I must do to help me, than I feel peace.

I do not think excusing them from their responsibility is right. I don't think it will take away the pain and give you peace. It just covers it to fester for the future.

And as a lot on here have said, forgiveness has to be earned. I think that is the honest thing one can for them.

Is this something that can be seen in religious forgiveness or secular forgiveness, or both?

I wish there were more examples of each questions that have been asked.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

I wanted to look at something else, something that came to me just recently today.

When you have pain, resentment, and hurt, ..... from objects, things, and natural situations.

So, I wonder if how one expresses their feelings there as oppose to with people.

The fall of 2011 wasn't the best, nature wise. For around here anyways. First Hurrican Irene and then the October storm. Both have had a lost of power for a good amount of days, and there were damage done, mostly so from the October storm. Trees and their limbs littered all over the place, and one big one landed halfway on our house.

Of course you can't get angry with it, it's not a being. Despite the inconvience and the lasting effects from it, there is no one to feel you excuse it or forgive it.

In the end, you can only find ways in your heart to either go berserk or find ways of looking at the better side of things.

I think that is the same thing with being hurt by people, so in the end, this is how one can have peace, by dealing with it on a personal level.

I think someone can have peace, heal, and feel of the let go of the baggage without 'forgiving' the other. You don't waste time forgiving a natural disaster. Why is any different if you have to 'forgive' someone? That's just a third step, in a one on one situation with healing yourself. Just start with yourself, and I think you let go of the feelings. I think it's a moot point to look favorably to the other.

You, yourself, can do this without that.

I think this can be done in a secular and religious setting. Do others think differently here?

[SHaYap]

~snip*

Hey third eye, thank you.

Ok, is what you're saying like what I have been saying? The thing with lying to yourself to forgive because others tell you so?

So, I would like to know, what is your definition of how the circumstances and conditions allow it to be very easy? I have a very hard time seeing this, and I guess I don't see examples.

Do have any examples, or experiences where this type of circumstance and environment occurs, and it results in that type of peace?

Hey you , most welcome and no worries ~

The problem here is I see you trying to tie ends that don't relate or perhaps not even being in the same sense of belonging to the same problem.

All situations varies and all circumstances are affronted differently, for all and for oneself, having to forgive a loved one and to forgive a loved one that is related is also different because the intensity is different. So the forgiveness takes on different characteristics.

You are attempting to make deals of rewards and spiritual benefits, that is the trap.

The forgiving is something that helps you deal with the future of yourself without the load/baggage of whatever that is requiring of forgiving.

The nuances is slight but the repercussions is great.

When I say under certain circumstances forgiving is easy, I don't mean that forgiving is suppose to be easy, what I mean is the circumstances makes it easy because of the rewards one is promised makes it easy to forgive, which is proposed under conditions, and it applies only when those conditions are met.

Sometimes forgiveness is the most difficult thing one has to do but also at other times it is the most natural thing in the world to do.

I apologise if that seems confusing but that is the most accurate manner to say it.

There is only but peace ... there are no other forms of peace but peace itself.

I do want to make note, I find it interesting in the thought process of there being an awakening. Does this occur in everyone in this?

I know, I may have had this in the past, but only because of how I did this. In a black or white way of looking at it, just so I don't go to jail violently hurting someone, I find another way to deal with my pain, resentment, and hurt, so I don't have to.

I can see this is being beneficial to you, because you don't go to jail!

So, in another sense, it seems to forgive someone else, is suppose to help you. The thing is, there is still the wrong doer, and forgiving them might not be beneficial to them. They need to see what they did, and see how the ramifications on the wronged, to see they take the responsibility of their actions.

Also, is it really peace, when someone considered the wrong doer differently from what the truth is?

I still see this forgiveness as a way to rid of the negative feelings as, at the most, a short term solution.

Like you said, one has to mean it, and if they don't, it is making it worse, to come back to really hurt.

Awakening / Awareness - Potato Potato

Here you are judging and not wanting to be regarded as judging ... a trap ... a mind trap ... a logic conundrum ... it does not help

I can go on and on but that will take pages and pages of here and there and back and forth going nowhere but back where you started.

I will relate to you a short story instead :

A young man well liked in his village is the toast of the villagers. Always helpful always prepared to be helpful. Everyone speaks well of him and he is well respected, loved and highly regarded.

One day on his way home he was hit on the head by a stone thrown by someone. He was incredulous. He could not understand it. 'Why?" he lamented. 'I have done no wrong, I did not cause anyone any harm nor have I insulted anyone, if I did then it was not on purpose, if I did then I ask for forgiveness, but who ? why ?'

He was inconsolable ... all day all night it weighed heavy on his mind and so he went back to the spot where he was struck by the stone and asked everyone who passed by, "Did you throw this stone at me ?" Was it you ?" "Do you know who it was? " every day for the month and got no answers, the villagers were concerned.

So the young man went into the village and asked everyone he met ... and no one could offered him an answer. So he thought maybe it was someone from the next village and so off he went ... years passed and still he persisted.

Sitting on the street, holding out the stone and asking every passer by ... "Did you throw this stone at me? Was it you? Why ? Do you know who it was ?"

It was not the stone that made him so and put him where he ended up, it was his own mind trapped in a logic conundrum.

Is there any examples that this does work honestly, with nothing coming back to haunt someone?

And that's a good gif as well. Holding on to anger and such is bad for you. You see, I don't advocate to holding on to the negative and painful emotions ( unless you're a diehard masochist, and that's a different story.... or thread! I just don't think 'forgiving' the other does what it says it does.

They way I have always practiced it as, actually knowing you have an acknowledge thought process about the other person, are you dealing in the reality of how you feel. Knowing that, you then deal with it. I have found, that when I have acknowledged the wrongs and the wrongness of the other and know what I must do to help me, than I feel peace.

I do not think excusing them from their responsibility is right. I don't think it will take away the pain and give you peace. It just covers it to fester for the future.

And as a lot on here have said, forgiveness has to be earned. I think that is the honest thing one can for them.

Is this something that can be seen in religious forgiveness or secular forgiveness, or both?

I wish there were more examples of each questions that have been asked.

Focus on the forgiving part, everything else connected to it is not of itself important to the forgiving part.

The most extreme example I have heard is when an elderly mentor cautioned me on going out to seek retribution on someone, his advice was :

"you know he is wrong , everyone knows it as well, you go to him now you either make a murderer/killer out of yourself or him, you will gain no satisfaction either way ... "

I sat back and I said "so what ? I forgive him and what do I get ?"

the old man just said "nothing ... where everything is still possible for your future ... "

What does it mean for me ? It meant instead of holding on to the stone like that young man in the story , I tossed it away and went on with my life ... does it means I get guarantees of all my dreams coming true ? Nope ... but I can live with that ... instead of a life I can't live with myself ...

It is really too much to go into but I hope and my only hope is that I have not made things worse for you ...

~

[Duke Wellington]

As a couple of previous posters in this thread have mentioned, sometimes there are reasons some cause the behavior that wrongs people. I think these people do not have the 'attention getting' behavior you speak of.

What if the forgiveness, you personally feel or force yourself to feel, is not healthy? And another thing, is one forcing themselves to forgive or do they actually mean it?

Well, yes, I agree. I think, the pain does subside too. Of course, if that person decides they don't want to be ignored, what should one do, to get a message across to them?

The cogs inside the minds of people with abnormal psychology don't go around properly. The problem is their brains don't develop correctly in the areas responsible for regulating their feelings or thinking patterns. With the feelings they experience negative emotions more powerfully than the general population. With the thinking patterns they obsess about things. Combined together you get someone who obsesses about their negative emotions doing their minds in. This causes them considerable distress which they can only alleviate by engaging in toxic behaviours.

If a person with abnormal psychology has self-esteem issues then the thing to understand is they obsess about this causing themselves distress. Their only option to alleviate the distress is to be the best at everything. Their toxic behaviours are to demotivate you or make you quit your job with the goal of leaving them as the best. You should totally ignore this type of person and make a deliberate effort to be better than them in every way that you can. Hold tight, they will quickly remove themselves from any situation (quit their job, etc) where their games don't work.

If a person has neglect issues (parents didnt pay them enough attention) then you should realise they also obsess about this causing themselves distress. The only option is to make themselves the centre of attention. It can take the form of normal attention seeking or negative attention seeking. With the negative attention seeking they found that if they acted out as children by engaging in provocative or abusive behaviours they could coerce their parents into reacting. And the reaction got utilized by them as the form of attention they needed to alleviate their distress. Adults who try to provoke reactions out of people by engaging in toxic behaviour are those who never moved beyond this attention seeking game. You should totally ignore these people too. Hold tight and they will also remove themselves as they cannot bear the distress they feel around someone they cannot get attention out of.

With both types of people they are experts at playing these games as they've had a whole lifetime to hone and develop their skills. They are very good at getting under peoples skin. By reflecting on yourself you can tell if the person is trying to demotivate you, drive you away or get you to provide a reaction. Ignore them. Even if you dont have enough information yet to decide whats going on, or even if you cannot tell what game they are up to, totally ignore them. Stop yourself engaging with them, reacting to them, even acknowledging they exist. And don't think such a person will ever change. No matter what sobs stories or cheap tactics they try to use to rope you back in they are not capable of changing the structure of their brains.

Forgiveness and ignoring aren't easy for someone to learn. You can force yourself not to react even if the toxic person makes you feel stressed, angry or upset. Those types of feelings are a normal response when interacting with such a person and it is you pushing yourself through this experience (although unpleasant) that changes you. After about 3 months you will find yourself de-sensitized to them. The skills that take the edge off it during this time are forgiveness, putting it out of your mind, pretending to yourself something else is actually going on. There are many other advanced coping strategies and you can find websites listing them.

Finally as regards what to do to get the message across to someone who doesn't want to be ignored the answer is simple - ignore them. You have to outlast them and then they will remove themselves. If at work obviously you have to work as a team but except for work matters dont even bother looking at them, talking to them or even acknowledging they exist. Totally ignore them forever.

Edited April 20, 2016 by RabidMongoose

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Third eye:

Hey you , most welcome and no worries ~

The problem here is I see you trying to tie ends that don't relate or perhaps not even being in the same sense of belonging to the same problem.

All situations varies and all circumstances are affronted differently, for all and for oneself, having to forgive a loved one and to forgive a loved one that is related is also different because the intensity is different. So the forgiveness takes on different characteristics.

You are attempting to make deals of rewards and spiritual benefits, that is the trap.

The forgiving is something that helps you deal with the future of yourself without the load/baggage of whatever that is requiring of forgiving.

The nuances is slight but the repercussions is great.

When I say under certain circumstances forgiving is easy, I don't mean that forgiving is suppose to be easy, what I mean is the circumstances makes it easy because of the rewards one is promised makes it easy to forgive, which is proposed under conditions, and it applies only when those conditions are met.

Sometimes forgiveness is the most difficult thing one has to do but also at other times it is the most natural thing in the world to do.

I apologise if that seems confusing but that is the most accurate manner to say it.

There is only but peace ... there are no other forms of peace but peace itself.

Ok, yes, I think that clarification was needed. I do feel, one can achieve peace, whether they forgive or not. But, that's me. That's why this thread, I find interesting. It's interesting to see the many aspects and as I am hoping, examples.

The thing is, I guess rewards should not be a thing to expect. Well, if anything, if one who did the wrong, expects a continuation of the relationship, or is sincerely regretful of their behavior toward the other, than something should be done, that they should do to make amends. ( This makes more sense to me, the wrong doer does the work, including emotionally, not the wronged.

But, I understand that it shouldn't be about getting the rewards, but peace. But, I feel peace can be achieved another way, not through forgiveness you don't mean. If it's difficult to do, than why do it? One has been though too much ( of what happened ) to have to do that too.

Awakening / Awareness - Potato Potato

Here you are judging and not wanting to be regarded as judging ... a trap ... a mind trap ... a logic conundrum ... it does not help

I can go on and on but that will take pages and pages of here and there and back and forth going nowhere but back where you started.

I will relate to you a short story instead :

A young man well liked in his village is the toast of the villagers. Always helpful always prepared to be helpful. Everyone speaks well of him and he is well respected, loved and highly regarded.

One day on his way home he was hit on the head by a stone thrown by someone. He was incredulous. He could not understand it. 'Why?" he lamented. 'I have done no wrong, I did not cause anyone any harm nor have I insulted anyone, if I did then it was not on purpose, if I did then I ask for forgiveness, but who ? why ?'

He was inconsolable ... all day all night it weighed heavy on his mind and so he went back to the spot where he was struck by the stone and asked everyone who passed by, "Did you throw this stone at me ?" Was it you ?" "Do you know who it was? " every day for the month and got no answers, the villagers were concerned.

So the young man went into the village and asked everyone he met ... and no one could offered him an answer. So he thought maybe it was someone from the next village and so off he went ... years passed and still he persisted.

Sitting on the street, holding out the stone and asking every passer by ... "Did you throw this stone at me? Was it you? Why ? Do you know who it was ?"

It was not the stone that made him so and put him where he ended up, it was his own mind trapped in a logic conundrum.

Ok, here's the thing, this is going back onto the wronged, and either it's their fault for feeling things or that they refuse to help themselves. Your story of the man hit by a stone, is kind of what I pointed out with my experiences with the hurricane and the October storm. I put myself in a positive mood, because it's no use to 'blame' non-entity situations. Granted, one can use that positive thinking when wronged by someone, but focusing to consider them in a different light, when it's not the whole truth of what they are, is too much work and goes against what they are feeling.

I believe one can feel peace, without 'forgiving' the wrong doer. Just knowing inside how you judge them, ( I do think it is about judging and to probably label it correct judging ) and then knowing what you should do from then on, is what I think gets peace. The peace is your inner part telling you, you are not lying to yourself anymore. You have come to a realization, the truth is that.

The important thing is to know, the wrong doer has the responsibility to owe up to it, not the wrong to work out at something they probably don't have the emotional strength for.

Focus on the forgiving part, everything else connected to it is not of itself important to the forgiving part.

The most extreme example I have heard is when an elderly mentor cautioned me on going out to seek retribution on someone, his advice was :

"you know he is wrong , everyone knows it as well, you go to him now you either make a murderer/killer out of yourself or him, you will gain no satisfaction either way ... "

I sat back and I said "so what ? I forgive him and what do I get ?"

the old man just said "nothing ... where everything is still possible for your future ... "

What does it mean for me ? It meant instead of holding on to the stone like that young man in the story , I tossed it away and went on with my life ... does it means I get guarantees of all my dreams coming true ? Nope ... but I can live with that ... instead of a life I can't live with myself ...

It is really too much to go into but I hope and my only hope is that I have not made things worse for you ...

~

So, if I'm understanding this, getting rid of the stone, gets rid of the resentment. If I'm getting this correct.

I think I have mentioned, if the stone is the pain of the situation, I feel one can get rid of the resentment and pain, by what they do for themselves. Forgiving the wrong doer, I feel, has nothing to do with it.

Do you have any real time or what you read examples that show that either one who forgave had a peaceful result from that or didn't. And have you experienced or read about more than one experiences and they were either spiritual or secular?

I have gotten a couple of personal accounts, and the few I have read here, one was through a spiritual sense, and one I would consider secular.

That is the thing, I read and hear too much of how forgiveness is suppose to do the things, by a lot, but I don't see how it actually works, as examples of people feeling that.

I know, when I have worked at helping myself, and still realize I still hold a wrong doer accountable, is what gives me peace. That's because I'm not lying to myself and having to work at a fake 'it's all wonderful now' facade.

Though, I'm reflecting on your points here, third eye.

RabidMongoose:

The cogs inside the minds of people with abnormal psychology don't go around properly. The problem is their brains don't develop correctly in the areas responsible for regulating their feelings or thinking patterns. With the feelings they experience negative emotions more powerfully than the general population. With the thinking patterns they obsess about things. Combined together you get someone who obsesses about their negative emotions doing their minds in. This causes them considerable distress which they can only alleviate by engaging in toxic behaviours.

If a person with abnormal psychology has self-esteem issues then the thing to understand is they obsess about this causing themselves distress. Their only option to alleviate the distress is to be the best at everything. Their toxic behaviours are to demotivate you or make you quit your job with the goal of leaving them as the best. You should totally ignore this type of person and make a deliberate effort to be better than them in every way that you can. Hold tight, they will quickly remove themselves from any situation (quit their job, etc) where their games don't work.

I would think that would be the best advice. And yes, one should. It doesn't always can be done. Or after the fact, you wished you had done that with those like that you have come in contact with that.

I wonder, if the ex-coworker, the friend, and the ex-boyfriend, who all have some form of being a pathological liar, do I have a regret avoiding them? Do I even forgive them?

Well, the friend, wasn't doing it to the point or her lying was not immense to consider her to be a person I needed to forgive. I guess, there needed be any forgiving involved.

The -ex-worker? Well, she was a pain in almost everything, so I kind of not spent a lot of time, with her. ( Ok, ok, my friend and co-worker actually had to hold me back from wanting to introduce this girl to the floor.. )

I didn't say that, did I?

Anyways, I actually extreme pity for her. She was the one, after my friend and ex-boyfriend, and I just knew the signs.

The ex-boyfriend? That's a different matter. I don't about forgiving him with his many excuses, but the cheating, no............... forgiving is giving him the excuse that I condoned his behavior, and I don't. I did the right thing, of course, hence he's my EX-boyfriend.

Sometimes, I wonder, stating to a person how they are and acted and how they treat people that ends up hating them, should be done. Or if the absence of anyone in their lives is an indication.

If a person has neglect issues (parents didnt pay them enough attention) then you should realise they also obsess about this causing themselves distress. The only option is to make themselves the centre of attention. It can take the form of normal attention seeking or negative attention seeking. With the negative attention seeking they found that if they acted out as children by engaging in provocative or abusive behaviours they could coerce their parents into reacting. And the reaction got utilized by them as the form of attention they needed to alleviate their distress. Adults who try to provoke reactions out of people by engaging in toxic behaviour are those who never moved beyond this attention seeking game. You should totally ignore these people too. Hold tight and they will also remove themselves as they cannot bear the distress they feel around someone they cannot get attention out of.

With both types of people they are experts at playing these games as they've had a whole lifetime to hone and develop their skills. They are very good at getting under peoples skin. By reflecting on yourself you can tell if the person is trying to demotivate you, drive you away or get you to provide a reaction. Ignore them. Even if you dont have enough information yet to decide whats going on, or even if you cannot tell what game they are up to, totally ignore them. Stop yourself engaging with them, reacting to them, even acknowledging they exist. And don't think such a person will ever change. No matter what sobs stories or cheap tactics they try to use to rope you back in they are not capable of changing the structure of their brains.

Forgiveness and ignoring aren't easy for someone to learn. You can force yourself not to react even if the toxic person makes you feel stressed, angry or upset. Those types of feelings are a normal response when interacting with such a person and it is you pushing yourself through this experience (although unpleasant) that changes you. After about 3 months you will find yourself de-sensitized to them. The skills that take the edge off it during this time are forgiveness, putting it out of your mind, pretending to yourself something else is actually going on. There are many other advanced coping strategies and you can find websites listing them.

Finally as regards what to do to get the message across to someone who doesn't want to be ignored the answer is simple - ignore them. You have to outlast them and then they will remove themselves. If at work obviously you have to work as a team but except for work matters dont even bother looking at them, talking to them or even acknowledging they exist. Totally ignore them forever.

Well, I can tell you something, from the experiences I have in the past, I have found them. And I use secular and my belief to do that.

I guess, it's hard for people to believe, but I'm at peace and deal with anger, in a great way. And I think it's better if I don't 'forgive' those who don't regret or don't do anything to make up for it.

I started this thread to see how so many think it is better to forgive and get the results from that, because from my point of view and my experiences, I get those released feelings and peace, because I didn't forgive, I was honest and knew what was the truth about how I judged them, leaving them to do the work or get brushed aside.

I can understand if this type of point of view may help those who talk about this, but it doesn't for me. I'm not looking for a way to do it, I'm looking for examples as to how it does it for others, when not doing it for me, still gets me in a place that is at peace, but honest for me and for the wrong doer.

And like I have been saying, I'm hoping for some real life examples, that shows that it does do that, and why it did that. ( awww heck, I could be an engima in all this! *shrugs* )

And I'm curious of examples that worked or didn't from both the secular and religious point of view of that.

Kind of like, has anyone known, seen, read, about where someone 'forgave' and somewhere down the road, their resentment boiled back up?

Seriously, I'm curious here for more examples.

[SHaYap]

Third eye:

Ok, yes, I think that clarification was needed. I do feel, one can achieve peace, whether they forgive or not. But, that's me. That's why this thread, I find interesting. It's interesting to see the many aspects and as I am hoping, examples.

It does not matter if that is what works for you ~ but obviously you are seeking for something more if not something else and that is something only you yourself can provide ~ hitching on to some other wagon might provide some relief but sooner or later , unless that wagon is a lifetime constant in your life it can prove to be a burden of a different nature.

The thing is, I guess rewards should not be a thing to expect. Well, if anything, if one who did the wrong, expects a continuation of the relationship, or is sincerely regretful of their behavior toward the other, than something should be done, that they should do to make amends. ( This makes more sense to me, the wrong doer does the work, including emotionally, not the wronged.

But, I understand that it shouldn't be about getting the rewards, but peace. But, I feel peace can be achieved another way, not through forgiveness you don't mean. If it's difficult to do, than why do it? One has been though too much ( of what happened ) to have to do that too.

THat which you mentioned has nothing to do with the 'peace' that I mentioned ~ because it is not 'peace' that you are seeking here.

You are speaking of 'closure' of some event. If things are not worth doing just because it is tendered as 'difficult' imagine the kind of world we would be living in. Worth is not , nor should it be the measure of the scales here.

This is really a problem that has nothing to do with 'peace' but something you need to resolve to gain that peace of mind that you seek, in other words 'the rewarding' , if I were to put on a song for you now it will be '

"

Ok, here's the thing, this is going back onto the wronged, and either it's their fault for feeling things or that they refuse to help themselves. Your story of the man hit by a stone, is kind of what I pointed out with my experiences with the hurricane and the October storm. I put myself in a positive mood, because it's no use to 'blame' non-entity situations. Granted, one can use that positive thinking when wronged by someone, but focusing to consider them in a different light, when it's not the whole truth of what they are, is too much work and goes against what they are feeling.

I believe one can feel peace, without 'forgiving' the wrong doer. Just knowing inside how you judge them, ( I do think it is about judging and to probably label it correct judging ) and then knowing what you should do from then on, is what I think gets peace. The peace is your inner part telling you, you are not lying to yourself anymore. You have come to a realization, the truth is that.

The important thing is to know, the wrong doer has the responsibility to owe up to it, not the wrong to work out at something they probably don't have the emotional strength for.

Don't forget to remember or Remember to forget ?

either way its still the same merry go round ... the same mind trap

So, if I'm understanding this, getting rid of the stone, gets rid of the resentment. If I'm getting this correct.

I think I have mentioned, if the stone is the pain of the situation, I feel one can get rid of the resentment and pain, by what they do for themselves. Forgiving the wrong doer, I feel, has nothing to do with it.

The stone is nothing , the stone is meaningless , the stone is inconsequential , that is the point

there is no if .., the pain the resentment the wrong doer is impermanent ... it is gone as soon as you throw it away ~ the more you define it as wrong or injustice or something that has meaning, you just shift its place and importance, but it remains ...

It was never the stone, it was never anything but you ... yourself ... as long as you yourself allows it this power over you it remains a power over you.

Worse if it traps you with deals of rewards or promises ... then you become subjugated to it as long as the deal is rendered.

a trap

Do you have any real time or what you read examples that show that either one who forgave had a peaceful result from that or didn't. And have you experienced or read about more than one experiences and they were either spiritual or secular?

I have gotten a couple of personal accounts, and the few I have read here, one was through a spiritual sense, and one I would consider secular.

That is the thing, I read and hear too much of how forgiveness is suppose to do the things, by a lot, but I don't see how it actually works, as examples of people feeling that.

I know, when I have worked at helping myself, and still realize I still hold a wrong doer accountable, is what gives me peace. That's because I'm not lying to myself and having to work at a fake 'it's all wonderful now' facade.

Though, I'm reflecting on your points here, third eye.

~snip*

Yes there are many examples but it will not nor will it ever solve anything ... it is something you must face yourself with the kind of clarity that you yourself knows. You cannot take the experiences of others and apply it to your personal logic as if it is some sort of code of conduct and it hums along like some automated responsive program ~ it may seem to help but it truly does not ... not in the manner that you wants it to anyhow.

To see one must first know what one is looking for ~ ''Knock and the door shall be open, seek and you will find, ask and you will be given"

Simple words but the meaning is not as superficial as I wanna Jesus to get me a fancy sports car ... or I wanna someone to show me how to forgive and come out of it without any emotional scars ...

Holding a wrong doer accountable has nothing to do with forgiving or not ... if you truly forgive then it is you that has forgiven, that is all, the accountability does not evaporate into nothingness. In effect you are asking for a method to scrub out things that has already happened, or maybe going back in time where things are as if it never happened on account of this forgiving act. This is where you are mistaken ~ there is no such thing ... secular or even spiritual

Even with out of sight out of mind in reality it remains ... but in reality it no longer affects you ... unless you allows it to

When you make peace then that is all that you have made ... a made peace ... when you find peace then you don't have to make

It seems to be the same but it is not ... there is only one PEACE and that is the kind that you find

~

[Grandpa Greenman]

but in reality it no longer affects you ... unless you allows it to ...there is only one PEACE and that is the kind that you find

Well said, third_eye, I guess it comes down to, you don't necessarily have to forgive, but you do have to learn to let go and not let actions of others who are out of your control eat you up. Like working on the fence with my neighbor, how many times did I bite my tongue and say to myself the guy is an idiot, let it go, he is not going to change. When he called his son stupid at one point, I stood behind him and did the crazy hand sign to his son, who gave me a big grin as he walked away. For me building the fence was a act of healing. In witchcraft it is called blocking. I am minimizing the effects and control he has of my feelings, so I can move on.

What is really hard is forgiving yourself for things you have done. You can ask someone to forgive you and try to make up for what you have done, but it always there in the back of your mind that you have hurt someone you love and you have lost the trust they had in you. It is price you pay for your actions, karma bites.

When all else fails, there is witchcraft. Take paper, write down your pain, anger, frustrations or guilt, burn it in flame and send of off to universe. You can't change the past, you can change only the future.

Edited April 21, 2016 by GreenmansGod

[Stubbly_Dooright]

third_eye:

It does not matter if that is what works for you ~ but obviously you are seeking for something more if not something else and that is something only you yourself can provide ~ hitching on to some other wagon might provide some relief but sooner or later , unless that wagon is a lifetime constant in your life it can prove to be a burden of a different nature.

Well, here's the thing third eye, do you have examples of how you come to believe that? I'm not saying I doubt or no doubt you, but one of the big reasons for starting this thread, ( other than this has been a great subject to discuss and I didn't want to take over another's thread to do it ) I would love to see examples of how what is being discussed here and how it's being believed, to actually practiced and see if it worked or not. A couple of posters here have actually posted examples, whether it's them or others, and I saw how their outlook played out. Do you have examples of your point of view?

I think it's easier to see if one follows their point of view, than to actually see it played out, even with themselves. ( that being my point of view again, mind you )

Yes, it does work for me. And I think one should realize, from my thoughts I have noticed, everything is always for life. Like addiction is never cured, just balanced and maintained with therapy and the like, or lots of stuff, we have to deal with it for the rest of our lives. Does one have to 'talk themselves' into 'forgiving' when they don't mean it? Someone here mentioned it's not instant and it takes time, ( well yes, I agree with that ) but isn't it better to be honest with yourself and how you see that other, and then deal with what you have so you can still be a decent person to others? I spend most of the time, just being me and being in life, that means I deal with life on a daily basis managing everything in a positive light. I think that's better than having to constantly talk yourself into assuming a mindset that is lying to yourself. I have practiced opposite of that, I feel peace. Because, my true feelings are acknowledged, not lied to. If what your advising is the correct way, has that been practiced and it work and do you have that example to discuss?

{"THat which you mentioned has nothing to do with the 'peace' that I mentioned ~ because it is not 'peace' that you are seeking here."}

You are speaking of 'closure' of some event. If things are not worth doing just because it is tendered as 'difficult' imagine the kind of world we would be living in. Worth is not , nor should it be the measure of the scales here.

This is really a problem that has nothing to do with 'peace' but something you need to resolve to gain that peace of mind that you seek, in other words 'the rewarding' , if I were to put on a song for you now it will be 'Chim Chimney [AMV] - YouTube"

Wait, you did mention peace. Here is a bit from your post #79:

Sometimes forgiveness is the most difficult thing one has to do but also at other times it is the most natural thing in the world to do.

I apologise if that seems confusing but that is the most accurate manner to say it.

{"There is only but peace ... there are no other forms of peace but peace itself."}

So, if I'm getting this straight, first it's only peace, but no it's not?! It's something else?

That's sound a bit confusing there, third eye. Maybe I should wait until you have an example of how your outlook actually works from someone you know or you heard about.

Don't forget to remember or Remember to forget ?

either way its still the same merry go round ... the same mind trap

NO. I'm sorry, I find that not good advice. So, one has to 'remember to forget' the bad, but let's make sure we 'remember to not forget' the good. If that doesn't shake up the psyche there.

I think, that also lies and messes around your head, IMO.

Like I said, I think we need to be honest with ourselves. Hiding behind a false wording or hiding from it, can be trouble down the word.

( I want to make note, I didn't just start this thread, because I'm desperately trying to find answers for me. NO, As I have stated, I have my answers, even if it's just for me. But this topic comes up, and I think it would be interesting to discuss it from varying points of views. I think this thread is for everybody. )

The stone is nothing , the stone is meaningless , the stone is inconsequential , that is the point

there is no if .., the pain the resentment the wrong doer is impermanent ... it is gone as soon as you throw it away ~ the more you define it as wrong or injustice or something that has meaning, you just shift its place and importance, but it remains ...

It was never the stone, it was never anything but you ... yourself ... as long as you yourself allows it this power over you it remains a power over you.

Worse if it traps you with deals of rewards or promises ... then you become subjugated to it as long as the deal is rendered.

a trap

I'm sorry, third eye, and this is my opinion of course, but I think you're making more of a suggestion and it's advice, than it really is.

I don't know about others, but I feel this stone analogy is not quite right to use to show a point.

Why even force yourself to think such things, if it doesn't describe the point successfully?

Yes there are many examples but it will not nor will it ever solve anything ... it is something you must face yourself with the kind of clarity that you yourself knows.

Ok, ONE MORE TIME! This thread was not started for me. I don't need the advice, I have used my own and it has been successful! I just see how others have a different way of thinking this, and I'm just wondering, has it worked?! Because, I don't see how it could, because it never worked for me. I had used this in the past, in a think like someone else, which was false thinking, and it hurt me more than you can imagine. I took over with how I saw it, ( with secular point of views and my belief ) and it helped and healed.

It's just I'm unique, I guess, in seeing how the 'advice' says it's successful, but it wasn't for me and what was, seems to be exactly the opposite. I think we all agree, this happened to be a wonderful topic to discuss here. I thought I could reflect on all the examples of the different religious and secular ways of doing it, and I could see, ( just for reflection ) how what did work and what didn't.

I'm not seeing a lot of examples. ( a few though, yes, to those who provided it, (((HUGS))) and )

Why is that?

Holding a wrong doer accountable has nothing to do with forgiving or not ... if you truly forgive then it is you that has forgiven, that is all, the accountability does not evaporate into nothingness. In effect you are asking for a method to scrub out things that has already happened, or maybe going back in time where things are as if it never happened on account of this forgiving act. This is where you are mistaken ~ there is no such thing ... secular or even spiritual

No, I'm not. I thought I made that clear. In fact, some here and their points of view, are making it seem that it is.

My goal, was to see the point of views and their examples.

I know, it's something more involved. I wanted to point out, how I see flaws in it.

I wanted to see other's flaws and success with it. Not to have it to help me, but to see how what works and what doesn't, so I can reflect on it.

A lot I have done for myself, I do myself, more so quietly. I'm already at peace here, and feel I'm a success story. It just doesn't gel with some here, and I understand that.

This thread is suppose to be something to discuss.

It seems to be the same but it is not ... there is only one PEACE and that is the kind that you find

You might not believe me, but I have found that peace, in the way I did it. ( we are all different )

Another reason for the thread, the peace and centered mind, with the not forgetting and not forgiving ( if none can be done ) is how I did it and with true honesty of y soul. I have no fear of my deep inner feelings, being blocked by a different thought process, coming back to cause more pain. It was dealt with promptly.

I don't want to ignore your point of view here, but yes, I feel examples will show it worked on some.

Is it really going to happen, as you suggest, 100% of the time? Can you guarantee that?

GmG:

Well said, third_eye, I guess it comes down to, you don't necessarily have to forgive, but you do have to learn to let go and not let actions of others who are out of your control eat you up. Like working on the fence with my neighbor, how many times did I bite my tongue and say to myself the guy is an idiot, let it go, he is not going to change. When he called his son stupid at one point, I stood behind him and did the crazy hand sign to his son, who gave me a big grin as he walked away. For me building the fence was a act of healing. In witchcraft it is called blocking. I am minimizing the effects and control he has of my feelings, so I can move on.

I have found your example, very good to use. And, I think, it's always a situation by situation type of thing. Like your situation.

Though, is blocking really going to help? How about putting it aside until later, until you deal with it, so you can in the here and now, help with the fence? ( IN a sense, I can see how you see it helping with the fence, as a way of healing. I put my feelings about certain customers aware in another part of my head, to help with a smile, and that is kind of healing for me, because I see how it builds my character, and I feel a sense of being bigger as a person) So, I know what you mean. When I have the time alone, than I deal with it, and it is refreshing and releasing. Then, my emotions, my true emotions are dealt with and I am !

What is really hard is forgiving yourself for things you have done. You can ask someone to forgive you and try to make up for what you have done, but it always there in the back of your mind that you have hurt someone you love and you have lost the trust they had in you. It is price you pay for your actions, karma bites.

You know, one of the things I haven't touched upon, that a lot here have, is forgiveness for yourself.

I admit, I kind of avoid that. Not because it's painful, but because it's not at the heart of what I wanted others and myself talk about. I wanted to see the many examples of how other's work through their own forgiveness or not, when they are one's hurt.

Self-forgiveness, well that's different. If one has brought it on themselves, I think that's very touchy. Does one really need to forgive themselves right away? If they did something, should they hide from it?

It kind of does blend into a wrong doer learning and repenting their behavior.

But, yes, I think I should touch upon 'self forgiveness' too.

I'm glad you are bringing it up.

When all else fails, there is witchcraft. Take paper, write down your pain, anger, frustrations or guilt, burn it in flame and send of off to universe. You can't change the past, you can change only the future.

Like I wished for with this thread, different' beliefs or lack of them and how they go about this topic. I thank you for that.

I wonder though, reflecting on the practice of writing it down on a peice of paper and buring it. I can see that in another point of view of reflecting on the wrong doer and what would happen if I didn't contain myself and pictured myself causing pain to others in my head, and then realize, that would be wrong, and then it's honesty of the feelings are 'burned away' with the acknowledgement?

I also feel, when I do this, I think feel that 'then, I need a more mature and peaceful way of handling this'

Like I said, different ways of doing forgiveness or not and the successes and the failures, I think would be very educational for all of us.

If, at least, just for reflection.

[SHaYap]

third_eye: Well, here's the thing third eye, do you have examples of how you come to believe that? I'm not saying I doubt or no doubt you, but one of the big reasons for starting this thread, ( other than this has been a great subject to discuss and I didn't want to take over another's thread to do it ) I would love to see examples of how what is being discussed here and how it's being believed, to actually practiced and see if it worked or not. A couple of posters here have actually posted examples, whether it's them or others, and I saw how their outlook played out. Do you have examples of your point of view?

I think it's easier to see if one follows their point of view, than to actually see it played out, even with themselves. ( that being my point of view again, mind you )

Yes, it does work for me. And I think one should realize, from my thoughts I have noticed, everything is always for life. Like addiction is never cured, just balanced and maintained with therapy and the like, or lots of stuff, we have to deal with it for the rest of our lives. Does one have to 'talk themselves' into 'forgiving' when they don't mean it? Someone here mentioned it's not instant and it takes time, ( well yes, I agree with that ) but isn't it better to be honest with yourself and how you see that other, and then deal with what you have so you can still be a decent person to others? I spend most of the time, just being me and being in life, that means I deal with life on a daily basis managing everything in a positive light. I think that's better than having to constantly talk yourself into assuming a mindset that is lying to yourself. I have practiced opposite of that, I feel peace. Because, my true feelings are acknowledged, not lied to. If what your advising is the correct way, has that been practiced and it work and do you have that example to discuss?

More than I care to mention, more to the point ... my point is "to actually practiced and see if it worked or not." is futility.

To my knowledge it does not work that way.

To Forgive is like stepping off the ledge on a bungee jump, you do or you do not. You can't reason yourself into it even when you are assured by those thousands or tens of thousands of survivors behind you urging you on.

I can discuss what forgiving means to me but I don't think I should discuss what I gained or how I forgave and when. Its a waste of time to me, at my age I know that quite well. Like I mentioned before ... do you remember to forget or do you forget to remember ? It doesn't work to my knowledge at least, you either forget or you remember. You either forgive or you don't. To say that forgiving comes with promises and deals of rewards ... well then, its not what I am advocating.

Wait, you did mention peace. Here is a bit from your post #79:

So, if I'm getting this straight, first it's only peace, but no it's not?! It's something else?

What you proposed and what I referred to is not the same though we did call it by the same reference.

• Tao Te Ching Wiki link
  

The Way that can be told of is not an unvarying way; The names that can be named are not unvarying names. It was from the Nameless that Heaven and Earth sprang; The named is but the mother that rears the ten thousand creatures, each after its kind. (chap. 1, tr. Waley)

That's sound a bit confusing there, third eye. Maybe I should wait until you have an example of how your outlook actually works from someone you know or you heard about.

No ... no examples because that's not what I was discussing.

NO. I'm sorry, I find that not good advice. So, one has to 'remember to forget' the bad, but let's make sure we 'remember to not forget' the good. If that doesn't shake up the psyche there.

I think, that also lies and messes around your head, IMO.

I apologise for disappointing you then, on the contrary, that does not lie and messes around the head, in fact it is one of the paths to alleviate the head from the lies and mess.

Like I said, I think we need to be honest with ourselves. Hiding behind a false wording or hiding from it, can be trouble down the word.

( I want to make note, I didn't just start this thread, because I'm desperately trying to find answers for me. NO, As I have stated, I have my answers, even if it's just for me. But this topic comes up, and I think it would be interesting to discuss it from varying points of views. I think this thread is for everybody. )

All words are in some from or manner 'false' in the precept that it is not 'exact' of what you meant however honest you are.

For instance ~ I am happy as a bird up in the tree ... how false or how true do you take this to be ?

I'm sorry, third eye, and this is my opinion of course, but I think you're making more of a suggestion and it's advice, than it really is.

I don't know about others, but I feel this stone analogy is not quite right to use to show a point.

Why even force yourself to think such things, if it doesn't describe the point successfully?

No worries, I did not claim to have the means to successfully describe anything to your satisfaction, just a point of view, not quite an advice even. If you see then you saw, if not then I saw what you see.

Ok, ONE MORE TIME! This thread was not started for me. I don't need the advice, I have used my own and it has been successful! I just see how others have a different way of thinking this, and I'm just wondering, has it worked?! Because, I don't see how it could, because it never worked for me. I had used this in the past, in a think like someone else, which was false thinking, and it hurt me more than you can imagine. I took over with how I saw it, ( with secular point of views and my belief ) and it helped and healed.

It's just I'm unique, I guess, in seeing how the 'advice' says it's successful, but it wasn't for me and what was, seems to be exactly the opposite. I think we all agree, this happened to be a wonderful topic to discuss here. I thought I could reflect on all the examples of the different religious and secular ways of doing it, and I could see, ( just for reflection ) how what did work and what didn't.

I'm not seeing a lot of examples. ( a few though, yes, to those who provided it, (((HUGS))) and )

Why is that?

Reflecting is good ... in fact the need to reflect is not the bump in the logic here ... the bump is what you are reflecting on.

You are still showing indications of wanting to thinkl like someone else ... that was what I gathered from your assertions.

I must have read wrong, I apologise.

No, I'm not. I thought I made that clear. In fact, some here and their points of view, are making it seem that it is.

My goal, was to see the point of views and their examples.

I know, it's something more involved. I wanted to point out, how I see flaws in it.

I wanted to see other's flaws and success with it. Not to have it to help me, but to see how what works and what doesn't, so I can reflect on it.

A lot I have done for myself, I do myself, more so quietly. I'm already at peace here, and feel I'm a success story. It just doesn't gel with some here, and I understand that.

This thread is suppose to be something to discuss.

You might not believe me, but I have found that peace, in the way I did it. ( we are all different )

Another reason for the thread, the peace and centered mind, with the not forgetting and not forgiving ( if none can be done ) is how I did it and with true honesty of y soul. I have no fear of my deep inner feelings, being blocked by a different thought process, coming back to cause more pain. It was dealt with promptly.

I don't want to ignore your point of view here, but yes, I feel examples will show it worked on some.

Best you ignore my point of view then because I don't believe I can be helpful in the means and manner that you had hoped.

Is it really going to happen, as you suggest, 100% of the time? Can you guarantee that?

~snip*

Nope .. hardly even 0.01% of the time to you or anyone else even ...

~

[Stubbly_Dooright]

third eye:

More than I care to mention, more to the point ... my point is "to actually practiced and see if it worked or not." is futility.

To my knowledge it does not work that way.

Ok, I doubt that you have them. The point is, that is one of the reasons I started this thread. To see the many outcomes of the many varous ways to forgive or not, ( and the differences in beliefs or the lack of them ) and reflect on them. If it's futility, then I think you're telling me something different here.

I started this thread to be more, than just lectures. Already, this thread has contributed to many different outlooks, experiences, and discussions on the different ways one's feel and outcomes. ( And the many different outcomes too, which I feel is very important to discuss )

If you don't have any, or feel you don't want to discuss any examples here, that's ok. I just want you to bear in mind, that is what this thread is about. Nothing wrong in how you and your belief or lack of one, looks at forgiveness, but lecturing it and not showing examples, doesn't show if it works or not. Maybe this thread is not for you. Not an insult, or a put down, just an observation. That's all.

To Forgive is like stepping off the ledge on a bungee jump, you do or you do not. You can't reason yourself into it even when you are assured by those thousands or tens of thousands of survivors behind you urging you on.

If everyone of them, of their own examples of it working, then by all means, I would have them talk me into it. What if you see the bungee have a tear in it, no matter how many people behind me are urging me on, I'm not doing it.

I can discuss what forgiving means to me but I don't think I should discuss what I gained or how I forgave and when. Its a waste of time to me, at my age I know that quite well. Like I mentioned before ... do you remember to forget or do you forget to remember ? It doesn't work to my knowledge at least, you either forget or you remember. You either forgive or you don't. To say that forgiving comes with promises and deals of rewards ... well then, its not what I am advocating.

I have lived a life, where there are many times, people lecture and half the time, they are wrong. I'm not saying you are, but you have to realize, you can lecture what you think, ( and be right for yourself ) but, that doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

You have said, what you wanted to say in my thread. And I think that's cool. I am glad you are. And it should be here, with the rest of the contributions here to compare to others and reflect.

I just think, where are the experiences of your points, that show it works. If it did on some, great! But, with everyone, we're all different. The situations are all different, it's not all the same lecture to different people.

I would really really love to see how it has worked, and reflect on that. I'm sure others here would too.

You can still say what you want to say here, if it's not what others feel that it's for them, one has to realize that.

But please understand, I'm not saying you're wasting your time. I'm saying, though, it would be more of an impact to see how it did work.

I can tell you one thing though, your points might work for some, but the very same thinking has not worked for me. Things like that made it worse for me. When I saw how I looked at it, and did something different, that's when I was at peace, and no one else was hurt.

You seee, that is why I ask for any examples, because I, my example, have a hard time seeing it working, when it doesn't for me. That's reality! Piece A, doesn't always go into slot B.

What you proposed and what I referred to is not the same though we did call it by the same reference.

Tao Te Ching Wiki link

Ok, I'm confused. What you put here, doesn't make sense to what I pointed out. I think you're going to have to explain more of what you meant than, when I thought you first mentioned peace, and then you didn't. The link, I find cute, but I would consider that more of an architecture thing. ( Not that it's wrong, I would hide in a Frank Lloyd Wright home anytime )

In which, another thing I probably should bring up. I wonder, if there is a miscommunitcations of undersatanding because of language.

No ... no examples because that's not what I was discussing.

That's one of the many reasons I started this thread. Yes, to have points you brought into this thread, but to also see if it's worked, even half the time. If not, I can understand others here reflect on your posts, but I might just have to push it aside for a bit, since I don't see any results.

I apologise for disappointing you then, on the contrary, that does not lie and messes around the head, in fact it is one of the paths to alleviate the head from the lies and mess.

Ok, third eye, here's the thing. I know from experience, that what you are saying, doesn't work for me. I say these things, because it happened to me. I'm not saying it happened to everyone else, but it happened to me. The type of point you wish to impart, has done the negative, not the positive. That's why I want to know if your points work, because everyone is different.

It's like the lady I waited on a long time ago, who had a fit because I was a lefty. She told me to write with my right hand!

Are you going to point out that I should write with my right hand? Do you think there will be examples on the net or in experiences that should that lefties forced to write with their right hand, had it better?

Anyone? I actually have heard those who did, never had proper way of writing, and it screwed them up. You see why, I cannot go head strung on what someone lectures on?

Me: Like I said, I think we need to be honest with ourselves. Hiding behind a false wording or hiding from it, can be trouble down the word.

( I want to make note, I didn't just start this thread, because I'm desperately trying to find answers for me. NO, As I have stated, I have my answers, even if it's just for me. But this topic comes up, and I think it would be interesting to discuss it from varying points of views. I think this thread is for everybody. )

All words are in some from or manner 'false' in the precept that it is not 'exact' of what you meant however honest you are.

For instance ~ I am happy as a bird up in the tree ... how false or how true do you take this to be ?

WHAT?!?!? ........ what?!?

I'm sorry, this doesn't make sense of a reply to my point there. Are you saying, I'm lying??

Please verify your point here? I found this point, the most confusing thing I have read.

I'm sorry, third eye, and this is my opinion of course, but I think you're making more of a suggestion and it's advice, than it really is.

I don't know about others, but I feel this stone analogy is not quite right to use to show a point.

Why even force yourself to think such things, if it doesn't describe the point successfully?

No worries, I did not claim to have the means to successfully describe anything to your satisfaction, just a point of view, not quite an advice even. If you see then you saw, if not then I saw what you see.

I'm sorry, third eye, but I'm now having a hard time understanding your points. I find them confusing.

Reflecting is good ... in fact the need to reflect is not the bump in the logic here ... the bump is what you are reflecting on.

You are still showing indications of wanting to thinkl like someone else ... that was what I gathered from your assertions.

I must have read wrong, I apologise.

'indications of 'wanting to think'?

I don't have a want, I've been thinking and reflecting for a really good long time now. Hell! I have an English degree! That opened the door, to really do that with style!

You may need to reread my posts over.

Best you ignore my point of view then because I don't believe I can be helpful in the means and manner that you had hoped.

Ah well. ( I give to the fresh honesty in that. )

Like I said, your points are good contributions to the thread. I just wish there were examples that you saw them being them working. I mean, if you believe what you talk about, that means you apply them to your life. It's a mystery as to why you don't show how it affects you. *shrugs*

Well, it was an intense discussion as it lasted.

Nope .. hardly even 0.01% of the time to you or anyone else even ...

~

Hmmmmm, than how do you know, your points are the best advice? Like I said, everyone is different.

Ah well. *shrugs* Your contribution here on this thread, is still that, a good contribution.

But, I really would like to see more examples of all sorts of points on forgiveness, belief or not, here.

I mean, I thinnk it would be interesting to see this. It's has been the center points on other thread to the point, it has even swayed from the main post point of it. I almost did it to two other threads, so that's why I started this thread.

Ok, so why is it, it is hard to find examples of the many aspects of forgiveness secular or spiritual?

I wonder, if we should keep in mind the experience of a particular righty tellling a lefty how to write.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Something just came to me, while reflecting on the topic of rewards, whether it's peace, or letting go, or doing that to heal and such.

Here's the thing. When you have the wronged, who didn't provoke, didn't ask for it, but yet are left with damage. don't they deserve the rewards, the peace, and the healing?

So, on one point here, if someone who as been wronged, are being lectured to 'forgive' because it will give you peace, or the rewards, or it definitely heals, I would think it does do that. Right? I would think, that has to be very sure the wronged is being looked after and not have more pain heaped onto them, so examples would be very good to make sure the wronged is not being steered into a worse direction, right?

I think we all, or most of us here, have said, it is not effective, if you don't mean the feelings you force yourself into, correct?

If one cannot guarantee that what they are lecturing about the wronged being told to forgive when they don't have it in them, and that it doesn't make it worse, like some form of repressed emotions boiling back up and hurting them even more, than why lecture, if one does not know for sure?

I think, that's a question that should be answered.

The wronged should 'NOT' be the one doing the work, it's the wrong doer.

Show if we're talking about 'rewards' and 'peace' coming from the wronged if they 'forgive' when they don't think they can, I think they deserve that peace, the 'rewards', when it might be a step into healing. Even mostly so, if there are examples that would show it.

I feel, I'm an example, but I'm hoping for more.

If one feels, they don't agree to this, Good! But how does one come by this conclusion? I would think........ examples through experiences.

[SHaYap]

third eye: Ok, I doubt that you have them.

~snip*

NOw that's not very nice

I said its not relevant, not that I don't have them ...

If everyone of them, of their own examples of it working, then by all means, I would have them talk me into it. What if you see the bungee have a tear in it, no matter how many people behind me are urging me on, I'm not doing it.

Which is my point ... irrelevance ...

I have lived a life, where there are many times, people lecture and half the time, they are wrong. I'm not saying you are, but you have to realize, you can lecture what you think, ( and be right for yourself ) but, that doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

You have said, what you wanted to say in my thread. And I think that's cool. I am glad you are. And it should be here, with the rest of the contributions here to compare to others and reflect.

I just think, where are the experiences of your points, that show it works. If it did on some, great! But, with everyone, we're all different. The situations are all different, it's not all the same lecture to different people.

I would really really love to see how it has worked, and reflect on that. I'm sure others here would too.

You can still say what you want to say here, if it's not what others feel that it's for them, one has to realize that.

But please understand, I'm not saying you're wasting your time. I'm saying, though, it would be more of an impact to see how it did work.

I can tell you one thing though, your points might work for some, but the very same thinking has not worked for me. Things like that made it worse for me. When I saw how I looked at it, and did something different, that's when I was at peace, and no one else was hurt.

You seee, that is why I ask for any examples, because I, my example, have a hard time seeing it working, when it doesn't for me. That's reality! Piece A, doesn't always go into slot B.

Yes ... what I meant in much less words ~ my sister is left handed ... you see it works better when you say/post it than if it was I that posted the exact same words.

Ok, I'm confused. What you put here, doesn't make sense to what I pointed out. I think you're going to have to explain more of what you meant than, when I thought you first mentioned peace, and then you didn't. The link, I find cute, but I would consider that more of an architecture thing. ( Not that it's wrong, I would hide in a Frank Lloyd Wright home anytime )

The point is we were supposed to be confused, it becomes a catalyst to further investigation ... now the name Frank Lloyd Wright is something I have not come across in a long long time ... thank you indeed ~

In which, another thing I probably should bring up. I wonder, if there is a miscommunitcations of undersatanding because of language.

Not language , not miscommunication , not quite understanding but more alike to preparedness ...

~snip*

WHAT?!?!? ........ what?!?

I'm sorry, this doesn't make sense of a reply to my point there. Are you saying, I'm lying??

Please verify your point here? I found this point, the most confusing thing I have read.

Nope not saying you are lying ... we're confused ... which is the natural and common state when in a discussion.... otherwise we'd not have anything to say one way or another

I'm sorry, third eye, but I'm now having a hard time understanding your points. I find them confusing.

'indications of 'wanting to think'?

I don't have a want, I've been thinking and reflecting for a really good long time now. Hell! I have an English degree! That opened the door, to really do that with style!

You may need to reread my posts over.

Not your wordings or language ... but your motivations ... which has nothing to do with your English Degree ...

I did reread your posts ... I think the confusion is in the expectations rather than the expressions ...

Ah well. ( I give to the fresh honesty in that. )

Like I said, your points are good contributions to the thread. I just wish there were examples that you saw them being them working. I mean, if you believe what you talk about, that means you apply them to your life. It's a mystery as to why you don't show how it affects you. *shrugs*

Well, it was an intense discussion as it lasted.

Thank you ... I apologise again for not contributing to your expectations ~

~snip*

I wonder, if we should keep in mind the experience of a particular righty tellling a lefty how to write.

EXACTLY !

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Well, then, that was that. *shrugs*

I'm going to try to search the net again, to see of any results of the various belief's and lack of belief's ways of forgiveness and see if there are any successes or failures there. But, is there any examples from anyone else?

Why is it hard to find examples, be it whether they work or not, somewhere on the web? Am I not looking hard enough? Is it hard to talk about it? ( Well, maybe that's a giving. I should probably know better to ask that question. )

Meanwhile, yes, the topic of self-forgiveness has come up within this thread, and I reflect on it. I just recently read something on facebook, about someone who felt bad about an incident, that could happen to anybody. The person's bosses were more understanding to what they did, then themselves were.

It made me think, I know, I have had hard times forgiving myself for things, even when I should know, we're only human. I have always tried to be a kind and proper person to not hurt others. I have found, as a true loving parent, one often wonders if they were the best parents to their children, and often think to themselves, they were probably not while their kids think, yes they were.

I'm not talking about those who have hurt, and don't think they did, or belittle their actions. I'm talking about those that really care about how they hurt and can't forgive themselves. ( for me, I think these people are easy to forgive them, because they see the torture the put themselves through, and often go through the moon to make it up even more than the damage done.)

I know, I am often really hard on myself, and find myself hard to forgive myself. If I stop, than I don't think I am a good person if I stop making myself feel guilty about something.

So, I wonder, what kind of person does it make a person who cannot forgive themselves?

I do have my belief help me, in times like these, and it does help.

Any body have example, which ever their belief or lack of them?

[SHaYap]

Why did Jesus say “Father, forgive them” on the cross?

Question: "Why did Jesus say 'Father, forgive them' on the cross?"

Answer: Jesus’ words “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing” are found in Luke 23:34. Jesus looked down from the cross upon the scene that was most distressing to Him. The Roman soldiers were casting lots for His clothing (John 19:23–24); the criminals on the crosses to either side of Him were reviling Him (Matthew 27:44); the religious leaders were mocking Him (Matthew 27:41–43); and the crowd was blaspheming Him (Matthew 27:39). Jesus looked down upon this most unworthy lot and said, “Father, forgive them.” How could this be?

`

• got questions org link
  

~

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Something has occurred to me, with some of the points that have been brought up in this thread.

forgetting. The idea, one will 'forgive', but will not forget. I know, I have brought up some thoughts about it.

But, what does forgetting do for the wronged and the wrong doer? Or shall I put it in a way, if not forgetting is the thing that is important.

Is it like a 'threat' or 'warning'. Or it what some advise in the forgiveness path, in both subjects of belief or secular?

• got questions org link
  

~

*sigh*

third eye, I guess I should give you points for trying, but this is half the thing here. So, if you're posting this, do you practice this? Where has this 'lecture' helped you, or has it not helped you. It's from a religious base, yes, but that just still 'lectures' if you will. And examples of how this is what you practice, and does it have the result it's suppose to result to? How do I know, it worked for you?

[Stubbly_Dooright]

So, I did more searching, and again I binged it. I found this, and this is what I'm talking about. It even seems to have both sides of spiritual and non-spiritual aspects to it.

From here: http://www.stirjournal.com/2014/09/29/why-i-reject-forgiveness-culture/

W

hen I say that I am against forgiveness, I am not judging individuals who choose to forgive. If doing so helps you, then by all means, forgive. What I abhor is a culture that places demands on victims and survivors, insisting that we are not whole until we forgive. Forgiveness culture implies that betrayers and abusers can expect to be forgiven — they can hurt and harm and rage — and should their targets decline to forgive, they can rest smug in the assurance that the refusal reflects a flaw in their victims, not in themselves.

I think starting off with the first paragraph shows the thought, in which I have always thought, seems to be there. I think it's a good point to show, that mostly when victims are demanded to forgive, it will not have the same result for them to victims who on their own honestly forgive. The writer here shows that she can heal with out it, and do what is needed to heal just the same.

And yes, if if some might find her thoughts on the conclusion of the wrong doer a bit shocking, She is being honest with herself, and she didn't do anything to do it, but her feelings of it, I think I found understandable.

I like her point on another victim of the wrong doer:

At the time, however, I was curious about what happened and I found the answer in a Livejournal entry by his first love and lifelong friend — a woman who knew that he had raped me and sexually abused at least one mutual friend of theirs. He had overdosed on barbiturates. She went on about how she had forgiven him for the ways he had hurt her and it was especially sad because he had been getting his life together. He was studying to teach disabled children. And it was that last fact that put me in a rage. I commented, anonymously, that the way he died was not as painful as he deserved. Then it was her turn for self-righteousness: What was wrong with me, speaking to someone who was grieving that way? People like me had ruined Livejournal! So I asked what was wrong with her, thinking it was fine for a known predator to work with a vulnerable population. Then I answered my own question: She valued her fairy tale of forgiveness and redemption over the right of those children not to be abused. I never went back to see if she responded because nothing she could have said would have made it OK.

It could be just me, but I sometimes see that. How those who seem to 'demand' that a victim 'forgives' and when they don't, feel anger that their 'advice' from a certain base, is wrong and not something they think they can 'depend' on. ( I think this should be a reflective thought here )

I ended up going down, and reading the comments. I found some of them compelling:

Your article is well -expressed and feels familiar to Jewish thinking about forgiveness, i.e. forgiveness is only an appropriate response when the perpetrator is genuinely repentant. One other thought is that it matters how forgiveness is defined. Acting as if you were not hurt, finding excuses for evil behavior, making others happy by saying you forgive, is a far cry from letting go of that person’s power to hurt you further and (for me) trusting that ultimately a higher power will provide justice, i.e. giving up my legitimate right to hurt back and instead to pursue personal joy and freedom….that too, is forgiveness.

I’m torn over this, I used to believe if we forgive we take away the power from those that wronged us, now I’m not so sure. I’m probably the most forgiving person you’ll ever meet. But lately I’ve had some of my past feelings resurface. I was physically and emotionally abused as a child. As a teen I was brutally raped by an older boyfriend. I was emotionally, physically and sexually abused in my first marriage. I thought I had moved on from my past because I “forgave” my parents, “forgave” my rapist, “forgave” my ex. What I’m realizing is I more likely just hid those feelings away so I wouldn’t feel them anymore. I’m not sure if forgiveness works for everyone. I think if you can forgive and move on in a healthy way then forgiveness can work. If you can’t forgive and release the pain than I think forgiveness may not be the answer. Constantly complaining about being wronged doesn’t solve anything. Being able to move on to a productive life is the most important thing and I think we just need to do what works for us to get there. For me, it’s going back into therapy so I can be the person I’m supposed to be without the baggage holding me back.

Pretty much mirrors how I feel, see it, and recognized it as the same for me.

I also found this comment interesting:

Love this. Well said I couldn’t have said it better myself. How I have forgiven is to not be angry or resentful about the hurtful experiences through imperfect humans but rather to reflect let go and to educate myself through trauma experiences that have impacted me negatively and studying God’s word the bible to help me better understand that I’m a sinner to and if I am repentant of my sin and I ask for forgiveness from Jehovah that what ever I know I have done will be forgiven. Of course your actions after the offense with that person or all people and others need to change and its the matter of the heart and mind coming together. If I don’t forgive others how can the Lord forgive me for my shortcomings. Forgiveness is not for the other person but truly for yourself to help you to let go but not to forget or agree with such an offense. You can forgive and have no further contact with this person ever who have done you such abusive harm. Forgiveness is never condoning an abusive act or violent behavior, or even emotional for that matter. You are free to set your personal boundaries to keep yourself physically, emotionally and spiritually healthy.

The fact, that you have to forgive, to be forgiven by someone else, I don't get that. I'm a believer, but of course it's a unique belief. I have a higher power, but I feel that messages tell me, that it will take care of me, and that it doesn't want me to do anything that is harmful and stupid. I feel, it also wants me to be honest with myself, and not fake something that doesn't bring me what others say.

So, here's examples, I have found, that seem to show what I have always felt, and that the opposite doesn't seem to show how it works out in reality.

I'm going to further my search on this.

[simplybill]

TML - That was an interesting post, very well-rounded.

To add another perspective: much of the New Testament speaks in terms of "planting seeds" and "reaping the harvest." If you've ever planted a garden, you know there's a long wait between planting and harvest, with much nurturing in between. I've found that forgiveness towards other people follows that pattern.

For example (a minor example): when I was a boy I had two older cousins who were mean, aggressive and much bigger than me. They tried to bully me into a situation that would've been extremely demeaning and degrading. I refused to comply, but the bullying was enough to affect me negatively. Over the years, each time I recalled those events, I made a conscious decision to forgive them. Years later, I saw them (separately) at family events, and as I approached them I could see the look of trepidation on their faces. I smiled and shook hands. Their relief was palpable. Their shoulders relaxed, they smiled, and we talked like old friends. That was the "harvest" for me, knowing I could banish someone else's guilt, and restore us all to a mutual respect that would never have been possible if I'd chosen to consider myself a victim during those intervening years.

However, it's important to keep personal forgiveness separate from public justice. The situation with my cousins didn't reach the level of a crime, but if there is a crime involved: Call the police first. Forgiveness comes afterwards.

Edited April 25, 2016 by simplybill

[SHaYap]

Something has occurred to me, with some of the points that have been brought up in this thread.

forgetting. The idea, one will 'forgive', but will not forget. I know, I have brought up some thoughts about it.

But, what does forgetting do for the wronged and the wrong doer? Or shall I put it in a way, if not forgetting is the thing that is important.

Is it like a 'threat' or 'warning'. Or it what some advise in the forgiveness path, in both subjects of belief or secular?

Lessons are lessons not withstanding and regardless ... I don't know how to separate belief and secular lessons ... my logic razor is not as capable as that

Not quite sure what is it that you are seeking ... or asking, come to think of it ~

*sigh*

third eye, I guess I should give you points for trying, but this is half the thing here. So, if you're posting this, do you practice this? Where has this 'lecture' helped you, or has it not helped you. It's from a religious base, yes, but that just still 'lectures' if you will. And examples of how this is what you practice, and does it have the result it's suppose to result to? How do I know, it worked for you?

Not 'lecture' , you asked, I provided a perspective where the same questions were raised and discussed, if it does not suffice then with a wave or a scroll its gone, no big deal, like the 'stone' in the little story I related, toss it away and its irrelevant.

No biggie ... I don't have all the answers ... though I do know of a few. Religious or Secular its still that age old question ... in one shape or form or another, whatever the language , whatever the lessons.

Here is where I don't get what you are asking, what does it matter if it works for me or not ? If it does , does it means it will work for you too ?

I doubt it ... in fact I am quite sure that it won't , because from the manner that you are practicing it I am not sure you yourself are even aware of what it is that you are seeking.

~

[eight bits]

Ms Mustard

That was a very nice collection of short readings you posted. I noticed especially this one,

... I’m probably the most forgiving person you’ll ever meet. But lately I’ve had some of my past feelings resurface... I thought I had moved on from my past because I “forgave” my parents, “forgave” my rapist, “forgave” my ex. What I’m realizing is I more likely just hid those feelings away so I wouldn’t feel them anymore ...

One of the shared problems of the human species is repression of things that are painful even to think about. That is what that writer calls just hiding those feelings away. There is no "away," there's just hidden instead. If you're lucky, the worst that happens is "some of my past feelings resurface."

We all need respite from unpleasantness now and then, and I don't think that's a bad thing at all. But forgiveness (like many other thoughts) can be a "coping" mechanism to banish the painful from conscious awareness indefinitely. But that isn't really coping - the banished painful things can still eat away at us and cause psychological problems.

"Bottom up" forgiveness, where the person has come to terms with the injury and can find it in themselves to be magnanimous ("large spirited") is great. "Top down" forgiveness, where the person acts from "I think I ought to forgive" or similar ideas, and then tries to push the mental economy in the direction, may not be a good idea at all.

[Lilly]

Personally, I have a bit of a problem with forgiveness (as most think of it). There are some situations where the actions of others would not be forgivable (for me anyway). When another person acts in a horrific manner, does not accept any personal responsibility, is not at all contrite/remorseful, does not change (keeps on being horrible)...you get the picture. Most of the time I could forgive and move on but unfortunately there are instances where I could not.

[SHaYap]

Some people needs to be forgiven before they can even contemplate forgiving them self ~ on numerous occasions I have witnessed a change of demeanor in the character of someone constantly getting into trouble making a full about turn with some intervention heart to heart with the family ... how long it lasts though varies ... some goes back to their ways some goes on to become model neighbors ...

~

[Stubbly_Dooright]

TML - That was an interesting post, very well-rounded.

Thank you.

To add another perspective: much of the New Testament speaks in terms of "planting seeds" and "reaping the harvest." If you've ever planted a garden, you know there's a long wait between planting and harvest, with much nurturing in between. I've found that forgiveness towards other people follows that pattern.

I find that a very interesting thought.

Well, yes, I have planted a garden, and my experiences might put a little thought here in this thread. When I was down in Jersey, when we received already grown plants that we just replant, it would continue to attach and grow in our gardens at our homes in the military base. ( the plants were paid for by the base, their hope of everyone keeping their quarters looking nice )

Now, in our own home, it's from scratch mostly, unless I buy something at the local store, it would either not grow, or soon wither. The thing was, I'm not a gardener. I'm just happy in having just bushes, trees, and cut green grass. I even mow it myself. I'm not really into gardening. I suppose, when you don't mean it, it doesn't grow.

I thought I put that thought in there, from my perspective to start.

For example (a minor example): when I was a boy I had two older cousins who were mean, aggressive and much bigger than me. They tried to bully me into a situation that would've been extremely demeaning and degrading. I refused to comply, but the bullying was enough to affect me negatively. Over the years, each time I recalled those events, I made a conscious decision to forgive them. Years later, I saw them (separately) at family events, and as I approached them I could see the look of trepidation on their faces. I smiled and shook hands. Their relief was palpable. Their shoulders relaxed, they smiled, and we talked like old friends. That was the "harvest" for me, knowing I could banish someone else's guilt, and restore us all to a mutual respect that would never have been possible if I'd chosen to consider myself a victim during those intervening years.

First off, thank you for your story. Something to reflect on here in this thread.

I can see how it is reflected on, from your perspective. And, it speaks positive volumes of you and your positive outlook. In which, could be a good thing to teach in how one faces life.

And what I will say, has no way saying something against your post here. I just wonder though.

What was your thoughts on the fact, you have control on their guilt?

The fact they had guilt, I could see weighing one's thoughts about them.

How did you care about them growing up? They were cousins, right? ( I ask, there was an aunt who was horrible to my mom, and was just plain nasty about her outlook on certain people. I never had a decent connection to her later on. It was easy she was actually the married wife of an uncle ( I adored him, still do ) but they lived many miles away. She has passed on within the last year, and I don't feel anything about her passing. It doesn't bother me. I guess, what she has done to make me feel withdrawing my care to her. I don't think it is something I should regret, I feel she made the bed. I just feel horrible for the uncle and cousins who are going to miss her. )

I will point out something that I consider important, and that is part of my praise to your behavior to them recently. I think, being an adult to adults, and kids of course, is important. Yes, you saw how they felt guilty and were dreading, but still were meeting up with you. I feel, it's only the mature thing to say hi, acknowledge and behave mature with anyone. And then I would go off somewhere else. Sometimes, if one feels like they cannot acknowledge a forgiveness toward someone, faking that you do is going to be noticed. I'm not saying you're faking it. I know, you meant it.

I see how it helps you.

However, it's important to keep personal forgiveness separate from public justice. The situation with my cousins didn't reach the level of a crime, but if there is a crime involved: Call the police first. Forgiveness comes afterwards.

I think it's good that you point that out. Yes, you are right. And there is a difference.

I think this would also go into what I have always been saying, no matter the pain on to the wronged, there is no excuse to cause harm back.

And you brought something else that should be reflected here. The difference of being wronged by those in either a criminal and non-criminal manner. And the effect of forgiveness ( in both secular and religious ) has on the wronged.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Lessons are lessons not withstanding and regardless ... I don't know how to separate belief and secular lessons ... my logic razor is not as capable as that

Not quite sure what is it that you are seeking ... or asking, come to think of it ~

Ok, that was honest of you. I was hoping I was clear though. Maybe I wasn't. *shrugs*

I'm not putting down the lessons, I do feel they are a part of this thread and it's points. But, I want to see how their outcome actually does show it works or it doesn't. I noticed you didn't have any experience in whether your lessons worked for you.

Like some here, and simplebill just recently. In fact, simplebill's example is showing me something incredibly unique of how I see this and him and a majority.

Not 'lecture' , you asked, I provided a perspective where the same questions were raised and discussed, if it does not suffice then with a wave or a scroll its gone, no big deal, like the 'stone' in the little story I related, toss it away and its irrelevant.

I'm not sure what you are saying in the way you wrote this. But, it's more than perspectives I was asking for. ( don't get me wrong, the 'perspectives' are important, I just want to see how those 'perspectives' actually work, or if they don't. Examples are a great way to see.

And yes, point to you for saying they are perspectives and not lectures. That word was the only one at the moment I thought would describe it. )

No biggie ... I don't have all the answers ... though I do know of a few. Religious or Secular its still that age old question ... in one shape or form or another, whatever the language , whatever the lessons.

Here is where I don't get what you are asking, what does it matter if it works for me or not ? If it does , does it means it will work for you too ?

I doubt it ... in fact I am quite sure that it won't , because from the manner that you are practicing it I am not sure you yourself are even aware of what it is that you are seeking.

~

Well, that's the main thing for this thread. To reflect off the many perspectives, religious or secular, and see how they work in different manners with each individual. I think your experiences would just be important to reflect as anyone else's here. If you do not want to, you are not being forced. If it's too painful, I would understand. But, that's why I'm not fully seeing a point with what you have so far, perspectives are one thing, with just a comparison description of why maybe it would work, but the proof is in the pudding.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Ms Mustard

That was a very nice collection of short readings you posted. I noticed especially this one,

One of the shared problems of the human species is repression of things that are painful even to think about. That is what that writer calls just hiding those feelings away. There is no "away," there's just hidden instead. If you're lucky, the worst that happens is "some of my past feelings resurface."

We all need respite from unpleasantness now and then, and I don't think that's a bad thing at all. But forgiveness (like many other thoughts) can be a "coping" mechanism to banish the painful from conscious awareness indefinitely. But that isn't really coping - the banished painful things can still eat away at us and cause psychological problems.

"Bottom up" forgiveness, where the person has come to terms with the injury and can find it in themselves to be magnanimous ("large spirited") is great. "Top down" forgiveness, where the person acts from "I think I ought to forgive" or similar ideas, and then tries to push the mental economy in the direction, may not be a good idea at all.

BAM!!!! ( Emeril Lagassse should patant that! ) This is what I'm talking about!

Exactly 8bits! And that's what I see being 'encouraged' a lot with no thought to certain aspects that are important.

And this is why I'm trying to find examples, other than myself, to see how certain 'encouraged' forgiveness on others doesn't work like some like it to. I see, that some secular and belief forms do to a point. I have 'and then's' and just recently, simplebill's posts to show.

And that's something else that is very important. The point of forgiveness is a very personal and individual thing. As I have been saying, it's more of a case by case thing, and more importantly as simplebill pointed out, there is a difference as well from the criminal and non-criminal cases to think about too. ( although, I would like to see how individual wronged individuals work with that too )

So, my main question is, how does each individuals forgiveness perspectives deal with things that are only just buried, and then come back later to haunt you?

Thanks for this, 8bits!!!