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Forgiveness


Stubbly_Dooright

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7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So.....do we all need to sit around the camp fire and sing songs?

I thought we were.

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1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

So.....do we all need to sit around the camp fire and sing songs?

?

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2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, you never forget any of it and you no longer fear thinking of it, any of it. In acceptance you are no longer frozen in the mindset of a particular moment in time, the loss of a loved one, the breakup of a relationship, the trauma of pain, betrayal, abuse, abandonment. It's all still there, imprinted on the pages of your mind, only now, in acceptance, you are free to turn the page and write anew.

Gotcha, I love “frozen in a mindset” a very good way to look at things in general.

I love the frozen in a mindset, for me, this describes my disconnect from my mom, that situation turned out to be this need to protect my mom from herself. I needed to let go of the conditioning ( the frozen mindset). 

My conditioning was such that I was made the parent. Incredible stress for a child, and lends to taking on way more responsibility than one should have as a child. 

This was more of a issue than a forgiveness thing, the dysfunction showed up as going over and beyond the call of duty in my adult life. 

Yet, the denial in a sense was a good thing, a coping mechanism, my peace pipe it allowed me to set much needed boundaries. I would tell myself, not today, not this year,  I am not dealing with more of my moms bs, without stirring up unending drama.

The downside of denial is it does put off finding better more productive approaches/ solutions. 

This is what my take away is

I equate not forgiving in much the same way, I think it is a way to set boundaries, for some, It is not always a bad thing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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I forgive everybody without exception - except of course those to whom I reserve the right not to forgive.

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I think in my mind I rationalize forgiveness as follows:

  • if an action which requires forgiveness, is out of character or accidental, then I will likely forgive;
  • If its in character or is pre-meditated I would find that much harder and may not forgive.

I don't fall back on any religion or group think - If I believe forgiveness is appropriate I will give it and generally do. I think in my 50 odd years there is only 1 thing I haven't forgiven but I will not go into that. 

I watch people on TV - and terrible things have happened to their family - murder, abuse and the like and these relatives of victims, on TV will forgive the perpetrators.

Personally I do have that in me. Does that make me feel bad about myself, because I couldn't forgive in similar circumstances - no. Does it make me think the victims family are wrong to forgive - no.

Forgiveness is personal - imo there are no rules, no rights or wrongs. Often to forgive will help the relatives of victims in ways I will not fathom to understand - if forgiving helps them - then all the better.

Edited by RAyMO
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46 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

I think in my mind I rationalize forgiveness as follows:

  • if an action which requires forgiveness, is out of character or accidental, then I will likely forgive;
  • If its in character or is pre-meditated I would find that much harder and may not forgive.

I don't fall back on any religion or group think - If I believe forgiveness is appropriate I will give it and generally do. I think in my 50 odd years there is only 1 thing I haven't forgiven but I will not go into that. 

I watch people on TV - and terrible things have happened to their family - murder, abuse and the like and these relatives of victims, on TV will forgive the perpetrators.

Personally I do have that in me. Does that make me feel bad about myself, because I couldn't forgive in similar circumstances - no. Does it make me think the victims family are wrong to forgive - no.

Forgiveness is personal - imo there are no rules, no rights or wrongs. Often to forgive will help the relatives of victims in ways I will not fathom to understand - if forgiving helps them - then all the better.

Great post!

I would be perplexed  if another person told  me I needed to forgive or I wasn’t a loving person or would miss out on something, which unfortunately, there are those that do, it is almost as odd a habit as coming to my door prostelizing.  for me, as you say to forgive or not to forgive is a personal decision. I enjoy reasons for or against it though. 

 

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I once gave forgiveness as an act of charity and more often than not, rued the decision. Now I usually only give it if shown good reason to. Some people can simply not be trusted and will pounce on any perceived weakness if it is to their advantage.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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17 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I once gave forgiveness as an act of charity and more often than not, rued the decision. Now I usually only give it if shown good reason to. Some people can simply not be trusted and will pounce on any perceived weakness if it is to their advantage.

That is their weakness. Knowing what you know now, is a strength.

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24 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Great post!

I would be perplexed  if another person told  me I needed to forgive or I wasn’t a loving person or would miss out on something, which unfortunately, there are those that do, it is almost as odd a habit as coming to my door prostelizing.  for me, as you say to forgive or not to forgive is a personal decision. I enjoy reasons for or against it though. 

 

You are an exceptional individual, Sheri, you were born exceptional. You were able to learn responsibility and self-sufficiently while other girls your age were still playing with Barbie Dolls. It's pleasant to think otherwise, but not all people are born equal. My own siblings with the same genes, raised by the same parents in the same house, are evidence enough for me of this. What you went through would have made a lesser mind a mental basket case. Yet, here you are, a wife, a mother, a professional, quite sufficient, alone to provide for your own needs and that of your family, if called on in crisis to do so. I would imagine--perhaps wrongly-- that there were men in your life before Sean, who found you a bit intimidating in that regard. *LOL*

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28 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I once gave forgiveness as an act of charity and more often than not, rued the decision. Now I usually only give it if shown good reason to. Some people can simply not be trusted and will pounce on any perceived weakness if it is to their advantage.

I honestly think this is wise, I am going to share that I raised my sons to understand that the loss of ones trust is something that cannot be taken for granted, that if one is trusted it is to be cherished at all costs and if for some reason a grave error is made, make it the last time ever.

I don’t believe those that claim to be paragons of forgiveness; it would cross my mind that they may be gullible or naive., or sheltered.

 

Edited by Sherapy
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5 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

That is their weakness. Knowing what you know now, is a strength.

Yes!

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1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I know what s'more are. 

S'more-or-less?

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12 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

You are an exceptional individual, Sheri, you were born exceptional. You were able to learn responsibility and self-sufficiently while other girls your age were still playing with Barbie Dolls. It's pleasant to think otherwise, but not all people are born equal. My own siblings with the same genes, raised by the same parents in the same house, are evidence enough for me of this. What you went through would have made a lesser mind a mental basket case. Yet, here you are, a wife, a mother, a professional, quite sufficient, alone to provide for your own needs and that of your family, if called on in crisis to do so. I would imagine--perhaps wrongly-- that there were men in your life before Sean, who found you a bit intimidating in that regard. *LOL*

I am definitely resilient; and willing to stand up when called upon for my friends or kids,  I credit my grandmother for taking me in, demonstrating a strong female voice, and investing the time in being a role model I could aspire to. 

 

Thank you for your incredibly kind words.

Lets just say I have kissed a few frogs before I found my prince. :sk

Edited by Sherapy
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1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

I am definitely resilient; I credit my grandmother for taking me in and investing the time in being a role model I could aspire to. 

Thank you for your incredibly kind words.

Lets just say I have kissed a few frogs before I found my prince. :sk

Lucky frogs!B)

Edited by Hammerclaw
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5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, you never forget any of it and you no longer fear thinking of it, any of it. In acceptance you are no longer frozen in the mindset of a particular moment in time, the loss of a loved one, the breakup of a relationship, the trauma of pain, betrayal, abuse, abandonment. It's all still there, imprinted on the pages of your mind, only now, in acceptance, you are free to turn the page and write anew.

the power to forget is there too

soon as we remember all we thought and did 

it is easier to forget what others did

 

i know this by reading the st francis of assisi prayer...where there is hurt let there be healing....

 

at first i was all wah wah my hurt i want heals, they hurt me bad, heals please

then it changed me and i became where i hurt them, let there be healing and let me be a part of that by intention and/or action

many secular songs was my introduction to this type of narrative switching....from first to last's song secrets don't make friends is a good example

first it was my wife then i saw it was me...all me...it was always between me and me

 

Spoiler
 
 
 

"Secrets Don't Make Friends"

 

 

This place is a bloodbath
And we won't be taken alive
We stand alone
Under fictitious skies

You were always my enemy carefully crafting my demise 
You were always my enemy carefully crafting my demise 

Our hearts beat strong under fictitious skies
You were always my enemy, you suck the life out of me

Your words are deadly weapons
Killing me, destroying me
Your words are deadly weapons
Scatter my brains across the wall

You were my compass
Leading me to nowhere fast
Promises were lonely roads
I followed you down like a map (like a map, like a map)

Your words are deadly weapons
Killing me, destroying me
Your words are deadly weapons
Scatter my brains across the wall

 

4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

So.....do we all need to sit around the camp fire and sing songs?

and hold hands....ok

"cumbaya milord, cumbaya milady too"

 

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

My general apathy towards humanity voids any desire to forgive anyone.

wait? would not apathy mean there is nothing to forgive? as the apathetic do not care one way or another?

but i can also read your statement another way which would make perfect sense...
 

Spoiler

 

if forgivness was a transaction as many believe it to be...quid pro quo...then if you already forgave (by doing this from the future into the past) then all you did could be voided.

as the currency of apathy would allow. yet in the future you might return to the currency of empathy (and thus go back to the past and forgive many instances from when you did care before)

 

and so it is

 

 

2 hours ago, RAyMO said:

I think in my mind I rationalize forgiveness as follows:

  • if an action which requires forgiveness, is out of character or accidental, then I will likely forgive;
  • If its in character or is pre-meditated I would find that much harder and may not forgive.

 

 

my perspective is based on the following:

Quote

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

The work calls into question the ‘consciousness’ of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how ‘free’ we are to make a choice at a particular point in time.

“We think our decisions are conscious, but these data show that consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg,” says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, Germany, who led the study.

“The results are quite dramatic,” says Frank Tong, a neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Ten seconds is "a lifetime” in terms of brain activity, he adds.

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

 

Quote

, scientists at the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences reveal that our decisions are made seconds before we become aware of them.

In the study, participants could freely decide if they wanted to press a button with their right or left hand.

The only condition was that they had to remember when they made the decision to either use their right hand or left hand.

Using fMRI, researchers would scan the brains of the participants while all of this was going on in order to find out if they could in fact predict which hand the participants would use BEFORE they were consciously aware of the decision.

The Results

By monitoring the micro patterns of activity in the frontopolar cortex, the researchers could predict which hand the participant would choose 7 SECONDS before the participant was aware of the decision.

“Your decisions are strongly prepared by brain activity. By the time consciousness kicks in, most of the work has already been done,” said study co-author John-Dylan Haynes, a Max Planck Institute neuroscientist.

I don’t even know where to begin here! I know from the hypnosis research that the unconscious pretty much controls everything and that consciousness is extremely limited.

But, I do find it a bit disconcerting that decisions are made by unconscious me 7 seconds before conscious me…

I am not the only one.

http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide

 
&

 

Quote

 

Proverbs 16:9

In their hearts humans plan their course, 

but the Lord establishes their steps.

 

Proverbs 20:24

24 A person’s steps are directed by the Lord.

How then can anyone understand their own way?

 

 

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3 hours ago, Likely Guy said:

That is their weakness. Knowing what you know now, is a strength.

I love this! 

I might put it in my profile. :sk

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11 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Well said.

I have certainly brushed elbows with forgiveness in my life and my two cents is  forgiveness is the equivalent of  letting go and moving on.

You know, I cannot disagree with this. I think it's universal, when there is forgiveness, one let's go of something. 

Quote

I think letting go happens in a variety of ways, 

I think a need to let go or move on shows itself by unnessecary suffering, or the life that is full of constant suffering, loss of vitality, and harming relationships in the current due to past offenses that have nothing to do with now.

Well said!! I feel that way. I think, in the variety of ways, many posters in this thread have shown that in their experiences. 

Quote

In any betrayal, or offense there is an appropriate reaction, a time of shock or anger, or rumination in the attempt to recover, heal towards the goal of moving on. 

This would be person to person, we each heal in our own time.

It would be absurd to tell someone that has just had a loved one murdered that they need to forgive, or tell someone that is a victim of a violent crime or situation that they must forgive the offender. 

Hell, you can even decide not to forgive someone or a situation and move on/let go just fine. There are some things that are not okay to ever do. And, it is the responsibility of each person to determine where and what their boundaries are.

Thank for each of that. That's how I feel, and I am hoping that what we get from this thread, is that how each of us, see the different point of views, and learn, is that it is different with each person, as well as how we believe or not believe. 

I know, I have learned from many here, and Simply has shown me a lot. 

Quote

Again, the gauge or the red flag that lack of moving on or letting go it is a problem is if it ruining your life, you can't function at all, can't go on, can't get back up due to the offense ( even with allowing yourself time to heal ) some things are brutal, such as, the loss of a child or a violent crime, suicide etc. (one must consider the situation).

 

If ones life becomes unbearable to live in then one might need help in moving on, letting go. 

Exactly. I think it's important to be said, that yes, not letting go, letting it rule you, yes I think it's ruining your life. And the healing, I think each one needs to do that, and yes, Sheri, thank you for saying this, getting the help you need. 

One thing I also realize, that other than the forgiveness process is not that simple, it is also many things wrapped up in it. So, it's ever changing on how it is done. 

Good post, Sheri!! :tu:  

Thank you. :yes: 

10 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Some people are very good at forgiving, moving on, getting past the pain. For others it is not so easy; they carry their pain with them like an open wound that never heals or they never let heal. Like being burnt by fire, a pain one never forgets, they flinch away from any possibility of ever being burnt, again. It's an obsessive fear/pain response and for some, relentless in it's persistence. For such, it takes an extraordinary effort of will to override it, to overcome their hesitation to participate in any activity, any endeavor, be it in physical activity or matters of the heart, that evokes it's memory. For them, forgiveness is just a word lacking any intrinsic meaning.

I think that's just it, when one sees it as a word without meaning. If someone sees it as that, I don't think they are forgiving properly. Exactly my feeling. Nice post as well. :tu: 

9 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, for me, forgiveness is when we overcome our fear, conquer the pain. We will never forget it, but it will never rule our lives, again.

I like how you showed how you see it. Is this or does this tend to have a permanency for you? I hope you don't mind, if I ask you this. 

8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I personally don’t mind going the depths in my emotions, I am not afraid of them. 

I love this bit. I use to be afraid of my emotions, and then when I confront them, and become comfortable with them, and see how they help me process my life. I welcome each emotion gladly. 

Nice input on that there, Sheri. :)  

6 hours ago, XenoFish said:
On 1/16/2018 at 2:18 PM, Sherapy said:

Your a good guy bill, and I for one read what you have to say, it is worthwhile and viable. 

Guyver is a really good guy too. 

I bet you come to find out you have similar styles, respectful, and authentic. 

So.....do we all need to sit around the camp fire and sing songs?

I grew up camping with the family every summer. I have fond nostalgic memories of campfires. A lot can be said, so positively, with campfires. ;) 

I'm all for it! :D  

 

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People which are able to repent and are able for feeling guilt. For them the forgiveness.

For others - Eye for an Eye.

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5 hours ago, Likely Guy said:

Without honest contrition there can be no true forgiveness.

That's how I feel. I hope you don't mind me asking Likely Guy, do you have any experiences that might has a different perspective on this? If you don't, or don't want to discuss, it's ok. 

4 hours ago, RAyMO said:

I forgive everybody without exception - except of course those to whom I reserve the right not to forgive.

At first, I was going to ask, if there is any experiences with this, then I saw the bigger picture. :D  

4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

My general apathy towards humanity voids any desire to forgive anyone.

I can totally dig that. :yes:  

4 hours ago, RAyMO said:

I think in my mind I rationalize forgiveness as follows:

  • if an action which requires forgiveness, is out of character or accidental, then I will likely forgive;
  • If its in character or is pre-meditated I would find that much harder and may not forgive.

I don't fall back on any religion or group think - If I believe forgiveness is appropriate I will give it and generally do. I think in my 50 odd years there is only 1 thing I haven't forgiven but I will not go into that. 

I watch people on TV - and terrible things have happened to their family - murder, abuse and the like and these relatives of victims, on TV will forgive the perpetrators.

Personally I do have that in me. Does that make me feel bad about myself, because I couldn't forgive in similar circumstances - no. Does it make me think the victims family are wrong to forgive - no.

Forgiveness is personal - imo there are no rules, no rights or wrongs. Often to forgive will help the relatives of victims in ways I will not fathom to understand - if forgiving helps them - then all the better.

I think this is a wonderful contribution to this thread. I think, bingo!! Plus, I find it very interesting how you brought in religious and none religious thinking in this. This was a wonderful post, thank you. 

3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I once gave forgiveness as an act of charity and more often than not, rued the decision. Now I usually only give it if shown good reason to. Some people can simply not be trusted and will pounce on any perceived weakness if it is to their advantage.

Thank you! This is what I'm talking about!!! :yes:

3 hours ago, Likely Guy said:
3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I once gave forgiveness as an act of charity and more often than not, rued the decision. Now I usually only give it if shown good reason to. Some people can simply not be trusted and will pounce on any perceived weakness if it is to their advantage.

That is their weakness. Knowing what you know now, is a strength.

Exactly. This is what I consider. 

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:
4 hours ago, simplybill said:

If you bring the S’mores, then yes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S'more

....i can’t believe S’mores have a Wikipedia page....

I know what s'more are. 

You just can't go wrong with chocolate!! 

Oh man, this brings up a memory. When I a kid, a neighborhood girl had a party, and didn't invite me. I was mad at her, and when meeting up with her and told her how I felt, she gave me a piece of candy, in which I took, ate it, and ........ forgave her. To this day, I regret that. I regret allowing her to do this little bit, and not taking responsibility of the bigger picture. I think I was too gullible then. 

 

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