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Stubbly_Dooright

Forgiveness

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simplybill
2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

To me I would have just ignored him as I found him abrasive at times anyway but because it bothered him that could just dismiss him and felt compelled to apologize opened the door for him.

In my opinion, your response closely resembles the intention of the  "Turn the other cheek"  passage in the bible. It was an appeal to equality. Rosa Parks demonstrated a similar appeal to equality: "On December 1, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Parks refused to obey bus driver James F. Blake's order to give up her seat in the "colored section" to a white passenger, after the whites-only section was filled."

( For those of you from other countries who are unfamiliar with the story:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks )

I may have posted this before, but I think it's important for understanding the 'religious' view of forgiveness in light of 'turning the other cheek':

"Notice Jesus’ audience: “If anyone strikes you.” These are people used to being thus degraded. He is saying to them, “Refuse to accept this kind of treatment anymore. If they backhand you, turn the other cheek.” (Now you really need to physically enact this to see the problem.) By turning the cheek, the servant makes it impossible for the master to use the backhand again: his nose is in the way. And anyway, it’s like telling a joke twice; if it didn’t work the first time, it simply won’t work. The left cheek now offers a perfect target for a blow with the right fist; but only equals fought with fists, as we know from Jewish sources, and the last thing the master wishes to do is to establish this underling’s equality. This act of defiance renders the master incapable of asserting his dominance in this relationship. He can have the slave beaten, but he can no longer cow him. By turning the cheek, then, the “inferior” is saying: “I’m a human being, just like you. I refuse to be humiliated any longer. I am your equal. I am a child of God. I won’t take it anymore."

 (That quote was taken from this article which may require a large bowl of popcorn to get through:)

http://rightreason.org/2012/pacifism-matthew-5-and-turning-the-other-cheek/

 

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jmccr8
10 minutes ago, simplybill said:

In my opinion, your response closely resembles the intention of the  "Turn the other cheek"  passage in the bible. It was an appeal to equality. Rosa Parks demonstrated a similar appeal to equality: "On December 1, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Parks refused to obey bus driver James F. Blake's order to give up her seat in the "colored section" to a white passenger, after the whites-only section was filled."

( For those of you from other countries who are unfamiliar with the story:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks )

I may have posted this before, but I think it's important for understanding the 'religious' view of forgiveness in light of 'turning the other cheek':

"Notice Jesus’ audience: “If anyone strikes you.” These are people used to being thus degraded. He is saying to them, “Refuse to accept this kind of treatment anymore. If they backhand you, turn the other cheek.” (Now you really need to physically enact this to see the problem.) By turning the cheek, the servant makes it impossible for the master to use the backhand again: his nose is in the way. And anyway, it’s like telling a joke twice; if it didn’t work the first time, it simply won’t work. The left cheek now offers a perfect target for a blow with the right fist; but only equals fought with fists, as we know from Jewish sources, and the last thing the master wishes to do is to establish this underling’s equality. This act of defiance renders the master incapable of asserting his dominance in this relationship. He can have the slave beaten, but he can no longer cow him. By turning the cheek, then, the “inferior” is saying: “I’m a human being, just like you. I refuse to be humiliated any longer. I am your equal. I am a child of God. I won’t take it anymore."

 (That quote was taken from this article which may require a large bowl of popcorn to get through:)

http://rightreason.org/2012/pacifism-matthew-5-and-turning-the-other-cheek/

 

I can see your point, but at no time did I ever feel inferior to him and he knew that because he could never intimidate me but when I shut him down and out he understood that I did so because he posed no threat to me and he was used to controlling others.

jmccr8

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simplybill
6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I can see your point, but at no time did I ever feel inferior to him and he knew that because he could never intimidate me but when I shut him down and out he understood that I did so because he posed no threat to me and he was used to controlling others.

jmccr8

I didn't mean to imply that you felt inferior, but that your response more properly defined 'Turn the other cheek' than the misconception that we're expected to swivel our heads back and forth to receive slaps.  Lol 

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jmccr8
Just now, simplybill said:

I didn't mean to imply that you felt inferior, but that your response more properly defined 'Turn the other cheek' than the misconception that we're expected to swivel our heads back and forth to receive slaps.  Lol 

Yes and that was the way that I read it.:D:tu:

jmccr8

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Stubbly_Dooright
58 minutes ago, simplybill said:

I may have posted this before, but I think it's important for understanding the 'religious' view of forgiveness in light of 'turning the other cheek':

Thank you for that. It's something I have requested for this thread, also a religious side of looking into forgiveness to get a full understanding of it on all sides. 

And I have always felt there was more to that biblical saying, then what one would immediately assume from it. :yes: 

1 hour ago, simplybill said:
3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

To me I would have just ignored him as I found him abrasive at times anyway but because it bothered him that could just dismiss him and felt compelled to apologize opened the door for him.

In my opinion, your response closely resembles the intention of the  "Turn the other cheek"  passage in the bible. It was an appeal to equality. Rosa Parks demonstrated a similar appeal to equality: "On December 1, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Parks refused to obey bus driver James F. Blake's order to give up her seat in the "colored section" to a white passenger, after the whites-only section was filled."

( For those of you from other countries who are unfamiliar with the story:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks )

I may have posted this before, but I think it's important for understanding the 'religious' view of forgiveness in light of 'turning the other cheek':

"Notice Jesus’ audience: “If anyone strikes you.” These are people used to being thus degraded. He is saying to them, “Refuse to accept this kind of treatment anymore. If they backhand you, turn the other cheek.” (Now you really need to physically enact this to see the problem.) By turning the cheek, the servant makes it impossible for the master to use the backhand again: his nose is in the way. And anyway, it’s like telling a joke twice; if it didn’t work the first time, it simply won’t work. The left cheek now offers a perfect target for a blow with the right fist; but only equals fought with fists, as we know from Jewish sources, and the last thing the master wishes to do is to establish this underling’s equality. This act of defiance renders the master incapable of asserting his dominance in this relationship. He can have the slave beaten, but he can no longer cow him. By turning the cheek, then, the “inferior” is saying: “I’m a human being, just like you. I refuse to be humiliated any longer. I am your equal. I am a child of God. I won’t take it anymore."

 (That quote was taken from this article which may require a large bowl of popcorn to get through:)

http://rightreason.org/2012/pacifism-matthew-5-and-turning-the-other-cheek/

I think it does kind of sound like that, getting the upper hand in how you react and how you view the wrongful doer. In the end, do you think it puts the victim into a higher self point of view over the abuser? 

I guess, one way I have always looked at it, is that despite how I'm treated, it's how I look upon myself and how others look upon me, that in the end helps. I guess it's kind of looking at it as not lowering yourself to their level. Another way is that, most of the time, that wrong behavior or act, will not be excused, and if there is punishment that is the consequence of the action, then it will be done, and the victim does not have to worry about that. They are still more respected and free then the wrongful person. If that makes sense. 

Sometimes, within this thread, I do notice how the none religious and religious outlook of forgiveness seem to match, and I think that is for some reflecting too. :) 

48 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I can see your point, but at no time did I ever feel inferior to him and he knew that because he could never intimidate me but when I shut him down and out he understood that I did so because he posed no threat to me and he was used to controlling others.

jmccr8

I wonder though, and I hope you don't mind me asking you to reflect on this: but if you did feel inferior to him at any point, how would that contribute to how you see him and how you look into forgiveness? 

 

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Stubbly_Dooright

You know, something new just popped into my head, and I reflect on another thread and how one sees something else as an act on itself, and not a starting point. I'm not going name anyone or a particular thread, but it's the word faith, and how faith is seen as the 'path' or keyword to getting something. Whether getting something you want or which ever, to me it doesn't make sense, because to me, faith is like a feeling or a point of view, to hold something that could be a starting point to action that gets you what you want. Or, your behavior in how you perceive what you want, because of the act of faith, but that doesn't necessarily get all that you want. 

Anyways, I think of the term, 'The Power of Forgiveness" and wonder at how anyone can say that. Forgiveness has power? How? To me, forgiveness is just a result to how either one is looked upon, after varying reasons are shown to rule in forgiveness. Or, it's a statement within one's self, because they found out why one did what they did or what they did to prove they suffered the consequences of their actions to you and made damn sure your experiences were healed and such from their actions. It's like a statement or closure, if it could be seen in that way. 

I don't know how how forgiveness has power. It's like being described as a magical word. 

Doesn't anyone know? 

I also hope there are more with experiences of how just forgiving stayed permanent. :) 

 

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simplybill
13 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

In the end, do you think it puts the victim into a higher self point of view over the abuser? 

The purpose of biblical forgiveness isn't to put the victim into a position higher than the offender, but rather to offer the offender a chance to achieve a higher level of behavior than he/she has been living up to that point. Forgiveness, when done correctly, should offer the offender an opportunity to reform his/her hurtful ways.

Grievous offenses may require accountability. I was in a Sunday School class at a church in Ohio during the time when the Catholic clergy trials were going on. The teacher told us, "If you know someone who is preying on children, get them help." Then he stopped, pointed his finger at us, and stated very firmly, "Call the Police first, and then get them help". It was a very memorable experience.

 

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jmccr8
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Thank you for that. It's something I have requested for this thread, also a religious side of looking into forgiveness to get a full understanding of it on all sides. 

And I have always felt there was more to that biblical saying, then what one would immediately assume from it. :yes: 

I think it does kind of sound like that, getting the upper hand in how you react and how you view the wrongful doer. In the end, do you think it puts the victim into a higher self point of view over the abuser? 

I guess, one way I have always looked at it, is that despite how I'm treated, it's how I look upon myself and how others look upon me, that in the end helps. I guess it's kind of looking at it as not lowering yourself to their level. Another way is that, most of the time, that wrong behavior or act, will not be excused, and if there is punishment that is the consequence of the action, then it will be done, and the victim does not have to worry about that. They are still more respected and free then the wrongful person. If that makes sense. 

Sometimes, within this thread, I do notice how the none religious and religious outlook of forgiveness seem to match, and I think that is for some reflecting too. :) 

I wonder though, and I hope you don't mind me asking you to reflect on this: but if you did feel inferior to him at any point, how would that contribute to how you see him and how you look into forgiveness? 

 

Hi Stubbly,

To be honest I see myself equall to everyone no matter what they think. My old man laid plenty a good beating on me so I lost my fear of that type of intimidation early in life getting strapped religiously in school also aided in giving me thick skin.:lol:

To me if someone is sincere in asking for forgiveness then it is for their benefit and if they do not seek it then thete is no poont in letting them know and I just delete them that goes for personal or business relationships equally, if I can"t respect them I don't need them. I grew up hard and have always been my own backer because I know that I am the only one that will be there till the day I doe and I won't waste my time on bad feelings.:D

I have empathy for my fellow man snd if I do wrong by them I apologize and make it right.

jmccr8

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simplybill
4 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Anyways, I think of the term, 'The Power of Forgiveness" and wonder at how anyone can say that. Forgiveness has power? How? To me, forgiveness is just a result to how either one is looked upon, after varying reasons are shown to rule in forgiveness. Or, it's a statement within one's self, because they found out why one did what they did or what they did to prove they suffered the consequences of their actions to you and made damn sure your experiences were healed and such from their actions. It's like a statement or closure, if it could be seen in that way. 

I don't know how forgiveness has power. It's like being described as a magical word. 

In the examples that I've given, I didn't feel a sense of power when I forgave. But, when I forgave those two teenaged boys, and later encountered them as adults, what I felt was a sense of 'wonderment'. I was like, "Whoa, I didn't see this coming". It was the same in the situation with my boss at work, when I made a commitment to "Do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men". I wasn't expecting anything from it other than a better work ethic (and hopefully keeping my job). When things played out the way they did, I had a sense of awe, as in: "What just happened?"  

In the gospel of Matthew, chapter 6, Jesus tells his disciples to "Seek first the Kingdom of God". He was basically saying, "Don't worry about the outcome. Seek God and his kingdom and leave the rest to me." Often, there's no emotion involved, other than perhaps a sense of duty, but when we see an unexpected outcome such as those I described, it's kind of like looking up at the stars on a moonless night and saying, "Wow". 

   

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Stubbly_Dooright
3 hours ago, simplybill said:
7 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Anyways, I think of the term, 'The Power of Forgiveness" and wonder at how anyone can say that. Forgiveness has power? How? To me, forgiveness is just a result to how either one is looked upon, after varying reasons are shown to rule in forgiveness. Or, it's a statement within one's self, because they found out why one did what they did or what they did to prove they suffered the consequences of their actions to you and made damn sure your experiences were healed and such from their actions. It's like a statement or closure, if it could be seen in that way. 

I don't know how forgiveness has power. It's like being described as a magical word. 

In the examples that I've given, I didn't feel a sense of power when I forgave. But, when I forgave those two teenaged boys, and later encountered them as adults, what I felt was a sense of 'wonderment'. I was like, "Whoa, I didn't see this coming". It was the same in the situation with my boss at work, when I made a commitment to "Do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men". I wasn't expecting anything from it other than a better work ethic (and hopefully keeping my job). When things played out the way they did, I had a sense of awe, as in: "What just happened?"  

In the gospel of Matthew, chapter 6, Jesus tells his disciples to "Seek first the Kingdom of God". He was basically saying, "Don't worry about the outcome. Seek God and his kingdom and leave the rest to me." Often, there's no emotion involved, other than perhaps a sense of duty, but when we see an unexpected outcome such as those I described, it's kind of like looking up at the stars on a moonless night and saying, "Wow". 

   

I love how you replied to this. And I appreciate your honesty and open way of showing your life, and how you lived, and how you live now. I think it gives a lot in this thread. 

I see your point on how one can see a wonderment in one's actions, even if it's just a very little act or spoken word. I think it's great in how you put your view and difference to what I have spoken about in what I have observed in life. Thanks for replying to my lost post. :) 

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Mr. Sister Elle Sade Ai Ni
Spoiler

what side are you on?

 

right before every dawn the sky turns pink before it turns blue.

 

Quote

just kiss already!!!

 

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Stubbly_Dooright

@Mr. Sister Elle Sade Ai Ni: 

What is your point with the three videos? I looked up the lyrics, but with those and the videos, I am not totally sure how they explain very well with this thread. I wish there was more, you could contribute, than a couple of worded phrases to each video. I think it would be nice, if you explained why you posted them in this thread, and why each explains or contributes to the theme of the thread. 

Other than that, I don't understand why they are here. I am sorry. 

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LightAngel
On 1/23/2018 at 2:56 AM, LightAngel said:

Okay, I will try to explain this on an even deeper level without having to write a whole book :)

In my experience, when dealing with difficult thoughts of any kind, there is no permanent solution. What I mean by that is that even if you've dealt with something once, that doesn't mean that the "issue" won't pop up again. But if you've dealt with it once, in a sense that you've handled those thoughts in a healthy way, then every next time the issue pops up - you will be able to deal with it more easily. It's as if the first time you deal with something, you generate a certain recipe or template if you will, for dealing with that issue so every next time it comes up - hey, you already know how to deal with it. And as time goes by, with every subsequent occurrence of that issue it becomes easier and easier until you don't even need to think about it - it becomes your second nature. 

So, that is how we can let things go, but I think it's important to remember that it's not a one-time thing - it’s a learning process that takes time and effort. 

That is why I believe that forgiveness has a lot to do with doing it for our own sake which does not mean that this in any way alleviates the gravity of the things that have been done wrong to us nor does it clear our wrong-doers of their error. By having someone do wrong to us - we victimize ourselves even further if we do not forgive for our own benefit.

If we build a healthy stance to even those who wronged us - we will then also be more apt at dealing with people who do us wrong in the future.

So, this is the solution that works for me, but we are all different and perhaps for you - something else might work better.

The point is to find the solution that works for you ;)

 

 

I quote myself here because I need to mention something important!

Never make any important decisions while you are angry.

Wait until you are calm again before you decide anything. - If we want to make the best decisions, then we need to be both academically and emotionally intelligent.

Our minds work best when it's calm.

 

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Truthseeker007
53 minutes ago, LightAngel said:

 

I quote myself here because I need to mention something important!

Never make any important decisions while you are angry.

Wait until you are calm again before you decide anything. - If we want to make the best decisions, then we need to be both academically and emotionally intelligent.

Our minds work best when it's calm.

 

That is so very true!! Awesome and great point!:tsu:

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Stubbly_Dooright
4 hours ago, LightAngel said:

 

I quote myself here because I need to mention something important!

Never make any important decisions while you are angry.

Wait until you are calm again before you decide anything. - If we want to make the best decisions, then we need to be both academically and emotionally intelligent.

Our minds work best when it's calm.

 

Well heck, I think that would be a given. ;)  But, I'm very glad you made mention of this. In fact, this brings up the honest truth about our feelings and our emotions, that I have been discussing about in this thread. I feel, emotions are honest and instinctual. And the one's immediately from a negative situation, be them not desirable, but understandable given the situation. I feel that everyone has their mode on how they feel and how the see things, but in the end, I feel you're right, do not act on what you feel. I feel, acknowledge them and know they are real and true, but don't let them rule you. I think you're again, I feel our minds do work best when it's calm. 

I often acknowledge how I feel, and have a place or inner time, to allow my emotions to be acknowledge and then work out and find a way to vent out in a harmless way. I think this also allows me to see varying solutions to a situation. I personally do not want to immediately harm or hurt someone. But, I also do not want to be vulnerable to them either. I think we are, after we have been 'hurt' and having to give in to 'forgive' and to 'excuse' them for it, I feel that leaves us open to them even more. ( And I feel, deeper scars within the psyche. ) 

Good post LightAngel. :tu: 

 

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