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Stubbly_Dooright

Forgiveness

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Stubbly_Dooright

For some forgiveness comes easy, but that forgiveness comes with a price. Although they may forgive they will never forget the pain and put the forgiven on notice that they have not forgotten. It says to the ones they forgive that for the pain I endured because of you, you must now bear an equal measure of guilt and remorse. Sheri is an alpha female, one who holds things together when they would otherwise fall apart. If she ever gives up on someone, they're in a world of hurt. She's like a rock that others cling to, until the storm passes by.

Awww, Hammer (((HUGS))), I think your post has put another perspective here. :yes: ( I am really glad I started this thread. Thanks guys! :tu: ) I think your post has probably told me, that I may have some form of what forgiveness is, very wrong. I love that line, forgiveness comes with a price.

But this line of yours:

It says to the ones they forgive that for the pain I endured because of you, you must now bear an equal measure of guilt and remorse.
I never realized how, if forgiveness told to the wrong doer, is actually given them the responsibility of accepting their behavior's result and must now suffer the consequences. Very interesting turn of thoughts for me here. :D:yes:

Although, those who forgive others in secret, is that the same thing though? Because that's not telling the the wrong doer, they now have that responsibility.

Unless, it's seen in a spiritual sense. I can see this in way of looking at it through my belief.

But, would this work in a secular sense, if someone forgives others, only to themselves?

Nice post, Hammer Thank You :D:)

Edit: P.S. I agree with your assessment on Sheri. She does hold things together, and yes, if she has seen that you have not moved to a level that has been told what you are doing and how you can correct it, than well, you haven't learned, and it's kind of sad that happens. I think that puts things in a healthy perspective too. :yes:

Edited by TheMustardLady
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Stubbly_Dooright

For me, resentment would be an issue for me if I tried to invalidate my self or my feelings on the matter.

Self love is viable In the sense I will have boundaries for myself and respect myself to ask for the things I want and say no to the things I don't and give voice to the things that can be better and have the wisdom to know when to move on in peace, and finally, to learn from my mistakes and those of others.

You know, the boundaries you discuss, is very important. I think when one has them, for themselves and speak of them to others, then I would think that would help in the healing process.
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Hammerclaw

The Mustard Lady says:

Although, those who forgive others in secret, is that the same thing though? Because that's not telling the the wrong doer, they now have that responsibility.

That's not forgiveness, that's just letting things slide, which is very unsatisfying.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Sherapy

I think this goes to the heart of the matter. If you forgive, just to forgive because you are 'suppose to', are you respecting yourself? Do you really respect the person you are forgiving?

I really do not think you can 'let go' of things as easily said that some think it can be done. Even 'and then's' example has him praying forcefully for thirty days? Not instantly.

This is something to reflect as well. :yes:

I think letting go takes what it takes and sincerity matters, meaning I would not extend forgiveness because someone said I'm supposed to. I am an adult I will determine what is best for me, because when I honor that then it is best for those involved.

So if I feel like a liar and a fake for forcing myself to forgive when I am not ready to, and subject myself to seething resentment, then I am really a fake and a liar and what have I gained, nothing but misery. I think this is why some ideas on forgiveness come up empty for you. But if I say I am working through this, I am not ready to make nice, but I will work through this, eventually. I have found a way to honor myself and be at a peace, until I find a way to move forward, if I ever move forward, maybe I will think it's best to move on.

I don't think because a person has not forgiven something means they are living in emotional hell, it may mean for the first time they are not. Lol

Maybe putting the problem in the rear view, and not looking back is the best way. :)

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Sherapy

For some forgiveness comes easy, but that forgiveness comes with a price. Although they may forgive they will never forget the pain and put the forgiven on notice that they have not forgotten. It says to the ones they forgive that for the pain I endured because of you, you must now bear an equal measure of guilt and remorse. Sheri is an alpha female, one who holds things together when they would otherwise fall apart. If she ever gives up on someone, they're in a world of hurt. She's like a rock that others cling to, until the storm passes by.

Wow, Hammer what kind words, I am humbled. Thank you so much. Alpha female, wow I love that.

Gosh, your post is astounding in insight, I think I am going to save this part, "It says to the ones they forgive that for the pain I endured because of you, you must now bear an equal measure of guilt and remorse" (Hammer).

Gosh, you teach me so much.

Another Sheri story: I have had to give up on my Mom, it was tough for her, really tough and I said one sentence for a year straight: Mom I love you, but this will not work. She tried guilt, manipulating, begging, lashing out in emails. I kept resending her the email, for a year solid. Then one day, I got an email from her that said "what do I need to do to make things right." I outlined the terms and she agreed and honoured each one of them: she never took me for granted again, we even took a Psychology class together, and for 5 years ( she died from lung cancer) we worked on our relationship (that was severely damaged and non existant). While we didn't get as far as I would have liked; I am deeply proud of my mom for the effort she put into our relationship and for how hard she worked on her personal growth. It was remarkable.

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy

You know, the boundaries you discuss, is very important. I think when one has them, for themselves and speak of them to others, then I would think that would help in the healing process.

In my experience, It does help.

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Sherapy

The Mustard Lady says:

Although, those who forgive others in secret, is that the same thing though? Because that's not telling the the wrong doer, they now have that responsibility.

That's not forgiveness, that's just letting things slide, which is very unsatisfying.

You have clearly been through forgiveness too. It's reflected in the wisdom of your posts. You are a wise man.

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Hammerclaw

Wow, Hammer what kind words, I am humbled. Thank you so much. Alpha female, wow I love that.

I have had to give up on my Mom, it was tough for her, really tough and I said one sentence for a urea straight Mom I love you, but this will not work. She tried guilt, manipulating, begging, lashing out in emails for a year. I kept resendign her the email, for a year solid. Then one day, I got an email form her that said "what do I need to do to make things right." I outlined the terms and she agreed and honoured each one of them, she never took me for granted again, we even took a Psychology class together, and for 5 years ( she died from lung cancer) we worked on our relationship that was severely damaged and non existent. While we didn't get as far as I would have liked, I am deeply proud of my mom for the effort she put into our relationship and for how hard she worked hard growth. It was remarkable.

That defines the difference between forgiveness and just letting things slide. To forgive does not mean to let someone off the hook for their transgressions, it means you give them the opportunity to make amends. If someone is not held accountable for a wrong they do, they will probably never make it right. Bitterness and resentment usually follows.
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Astra.

Wow, I think that was wonderfully said, Astra. :yes: Thank you. :tu:

Good point. I think barbco hit upon this as well in her post. In a lot of situations, the wrong doer has done it in some form of reasoning. But, yes, that doesn't excuse them.

I don't think I have ever advocated that one has the right to get revenge, to hurt to make themselves feel better. I hope, I have been making sure that there is no excuse to hurt, kill, what ever, be it's from the urge for revenge.

And thank you for your thoughts on the individuality of the wrongs that has been done. It's not easy black or white thing.

And I also agree, that time passing does lessened the pain. In act, I do feel, that forgiveness given after time has passed, seems more plausible. ( Something I think is great to reflect on too)

And the trust issue, good point. The lack of trust, is a big thing that plays out here in this situation. Does forgiveness, be it secular or religious, does that mean trust is gained back?

I wonder, if there are examples of this.

It's an interesting and thought provoking topic you have chosen Miss Mustard (can I call you that?) :) ...name change huh ? :P

Yeah - as far as the trust thing goes...as in gaining it back. Idk - as I think it depends on the individual - and of course the 'wrong' that was done to them.

Speaking for myself - I am not a religious person. But I know there are many people who do have a strong religious faith, and may find it in themselves - more so than I - to be able to fully trust again - after the hurt that may have been bestowed on them.

If anything - I think carrying the hurt / or grudge for years is a waste of precious time. And one has to be careful not to allow bitterness and resentment to take over their life.

Depending what the hurt is / or was...sure I can forgive in time. But there still remains that little voice in my head that says "tread with caution"...thus a lack of gaining full trust again.

You know - we are all human...and we are all capable of hurting others in one way or another. I am certainly no angel :innocent:

See what you've done - now I'm starting to confess :cry:

Edited by Astra.
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Sherapy

That defines the difference between forgiveness and just letting things slide. To forgive does not mean to let someone off the hook for their transgressions, it means you give them the opportunity to make amends. If someone is not held accountable for a wrong they do, they will probably never make it right. Bitterness and resentment usually follows.

Yes, forgiveness is proactive. And if I agree I will do my part which is help create the enviornment one can have the room to make amends.

This approach has been quite successful so far.

Have you found this too?

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Sherapy

It's an interesting and thought provoking topic you have chosen Miss Mustard (can I call you that?) :) ...name change huh ? :P

Yeah - as far the trust thing goes...as in gaining it back. Idk - as I think it depends on the individual - and of course the 'wrong' that was done to them.

Speaking for myself - I am not a religious person. But I know that many people who do have a strong religious faith may find it in themselves - more so than I - to be able to fully trust again - after the hurt that may have been bestowed on them.

If anything - I think carrying the hurt / or grudge for years is a waste of precious time. And one has to be careful not to allow bitterness and resentment to take over their life.

Depending what the hurt is / or was...sure I can forgive in time. But there still remains that little voice in my head that says "tread with caution"...thus a lack of gaining full trust again.

You know - we are all human...and we are all capable of hurting others in one way or another. I am certainly no angel :innocent:

See what you've done - now I'm starting to confess :cry:

I have taught my sons since they were little boys, if another gives you the honor of having their trust, never ever violate that. It is the greatest gift you can have and if you lose it the smart ones will not give you a second chance and they would be right not to.

Edited by Sherapy
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Astra.

I have taught my sons since they were little boys, if another gives you the honor of having their trust, never ever violate that. It is the greatest gift you can have and if you lose it the smart ones will not give you a second chance and they would be right not to.

That is wonderful and wise advise you shared with your children Sherapy.
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Sherapy

That is wonderful and wise advise you shared with your children Sherapy.

Thank you, Astra. :)

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Tatetopa

Thanks for an interesting thread Mustard Lady.

For me, forgiveness is a contingent upon personal relationships and social contract. It has an emotional character and repercussions. We all have a group of people that we relate to and with whom we wish to maintain harmonious and beneficial relationships. It might be friends, family, or work relationships. An individual can do something hurtful to you sometimes intentionally, sometimes by accident. If the individual regrets the action and wishes to recover harmony in the relationship and expresses that, then forgiveness might be the appropriate response. We restore a good relationship, which has benefits to both sides.

Forgiveness can also be applied to yourself. You may be the most important person for you to forgive in order to maintain good mental health.

As for the rest of society, forgiveness may be moot. Living, especially in difficult circumstances requires focus and presence. People stream through your life. Sometimes they help, sometimes they hinder you on the path of your life. Whatever the case,you are best served by overcoming obstacles and continuing with your life. I do not forgive people that cut me off in traffic or do something offensive at work if I have no relationship with them. I forget them and refocus on where I am and where I need to go. To forgive a stranger for a passing offense without the stranger even knowing you have forgiven him seems presumptuous somehow, as if you are pretending to be a deity and dispensing grace.

Advice to forgive is good in the sense that you have no time to dwell on the past and harbor un-diffused anger. It is unhealthy. I do it too. I carry a lot more baggage than is healthy. I found a way that works for me to release that anger. There are many. Maybe for some forgiveness is a way.

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Sherapy

It is definitely out of caution because of not only that particular incident, but also of subsequent incidents. He has and continues to steal things from family members/other people. He takes advantage of people, apologizes, then takes advantage of them again. He is just that type of person. I could never trust him with money... ever. I would never lend him a dime.

I just don't know, and to be completely honest with you I have no interest in "improving" my relationship with the brother in question. I don't hate him, I don't dislike him in any way... but I just don't... care to involve myself with him if I have such a choice. We get on quite well at family gatherings and such but I am honestly glad to not have any kind of regular contact with him. He has done so much damage that any hope of a "good" relationship in the future is pretty much shot. It is also not so much as what he has done to me, personally, but also how he treats others.

He could work and get his own money. Problem solved, he is not your problem. I am with you family or not doesn't give them a free pass or special concessions. You have good boundaries, NW.

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Astra.

Thank you, Astra. :)

Oh gosh - you are very welcome. You sound like a wonderful mum :)
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Davros of Skaro

Forgiveness is not a must.

When thoughts of revenge surface, then that's time to stop and think.

Just my two Zinc cents.

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Grandpa Greenman

I saw a meme on FB that said, "Forgive your enemy, but remember the b******'s name."

I had a big yellow tom cat, (Actually, he was the dog's cat.) He was from a neighbor who was feeding a lot of strays. A guy came by and poisoned them, my yellow tom had got out that night and got caught up in it. I had to have him put down, he was in great pain. Should I forgive this guy? If I could have found enough proof I could have had him arrested for cruelty to animals, then there would be justice. But to forgive that kind of cruelty, it is not going to happen as long as I can remember the cries of my tom in pain.

I can forgive people for a lot of things, if you steal money from me out of need, I can forgive that. That don't mean I'll trust you. Forgiveness and trust must be earned. Just cause I don't forgive that guy, doesn't mean I am going to let it eat me up with hate and anger, but that don't mean I am going to let it go either. He lives behind me on the next street and I have to deal civilly with him occasionally, but If it was legal I would shoot the b*****d.

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Grandpa Greenman

oops, double post.

Edited by GreenmansGod
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eight bits

GmG

It is interesting that it can be more difficult to forgive harm done to somebody else, than harm done to ourselves.

Had the tomcat forgiven the man, then the picture would be different. If the man now were to rescue a cat from a shelter and give that cat a good life, then the picture would be different.

As it stands? You're right not to let it eat you up, even to be civil to the creep when that's inevitable. And part of the problem is to accept that you can't "fix" it, no matter what.

No solution. This is why people go for karma or a god with a mean streak. It would serve the creep right if what goes around would come around, upside his head. It would also be nice to think the tomcat gets some compensation.

Coldly, I don't think either one really happens. Part of the problem is to accept that, too, IMO. And then you can work on forgiveness - someday when you have nothing better to do.

and then

I learned more about the need and efficacy of forgiving others in AA. I was told that resentment for past wrongs done to me were the most likely stumbling block to staying sober. Since staying sober = staying alive in my case, I listened. I was told to begin praying every day for the individual who wronged me. It didn't matter at all if I even meant it. I was to pray for that person's health, prosperity, well being and peace - everything I'd want for myself. I was told that if I did this EVERY DAY for 30 days I'd begin to actually mean it and forgiveness would come. I tried it and I can say it actually works but it does require perseverance. Forgiving others when they wrong you is not for their benefit...it's for your own. If you withold it then you harm only yourself long term.

I am skeptical of "fake it until you make it." There are degrees of forgiveness. I can believe that "thought naming" (as the Buddhists might call it, turning your attention to a thought and recognizing it as a thought rather than an aspect of yourself) lowers the temperature, so to speak. Prayer can be a lot like thought naming as an exercise.

Also, as you say, when sobriety is not negotiable, then whatever makes sobriety possible is necessary. I just wonder that there might be a residual unforgiven layer of past grievance. I don't know, of course.

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Astra.

I saw a meme on FB that said, "Forgive your enemy, but remember the b******'s name."

I had a big yellow tom cat, (Actually, he was the dog's cat.) He was from a neighbor who was feeding a lot of strays. A guy came by and poisoned them, my yellow tom had got out that night and got caught up in it. I had to have him put down, he was in great pain. Should I forgive this guy? If I could have found enough proof I could have had him arrested for cruelty to animals, then there would be justice. But to forgive that kind of cruelty, it is not going to happen as long as I can remember the cries of my tom in pain.

I can forgive people for a lot of things, if you steal money from me out of need, I can forgive that. That don't mean I'll trust you. Forgiveness and trust must be earned. Just cause I don't forgive that guy, doesn't mean I am going to let it eat me up with hate and anger, but that don't mean I am going to let it go either. He lives behind me on the next street and I have to deal civilly with him occasionally, but If it was legal I would shoot the b*****d.

That's terrible - so sorry to read about your cat and the other poor animals that suffered. What a low and gutless thing for somebody to do. Even if you know in your heart the person who was responsible for this - it's good that you aren't letting the hatred and anger eat at you too much - as you are only hurting yourself in the end. Let natural justice takes it's own course with this wicked person. In one way or another - they will get what's coming to them.

Any type of cruelty to animals or children is totally unforgivable in my book. As you mentioned - there are some things that one can forgive and / or eventually forgive. But depending what the hurt was - the actual trust remains frayed.

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Stubbly_Dooright

The Mustard Lady says:

Although, those who forgive others in secret, is that the same thing though? Because that's not telling the the wrong doer, they now have that responsibility.

That's not forgiveness, that's just letting things slide, which is very unsatisfying.

Thank you for answering me.

And yeah, I see your point. I feel the same way. And like I said, that original line in your previous post, I do find satisfying.

*Chalk in how vocal forgiveness to a person is now handling them a role in their responsibility toward the person they wronged.*

You see, I always thought vocalizing your forgiveness toward someone else, was letting them off the hook. That was always what the wrong doer always seemed to assumed and behave.

I must have been doing the forgiving wrong.

*shrugs*

I think letting go takes what it takes and sincerity matters, meaning I would not extend forgiveness because someone said I'm supposed to. I am an adult I will determine what is best for me, because when I honor that then it is best for those involved.

So if I feel like a liar and a fake for forcing myself to forgive when I am not ready to, and subject myself to seething resentment, then I am really a fake and a liar and what have I gained, nothing but misery. I think this is why some ideas on forgiveness come up empty for you. But if I say I am working through this, I am not ready to make nice, but I will work through this, eventually. I have found a way to honor myself and be at a peace, until I find a way to move forward, if I ever move forward, maybe I will think it's best to move on.

I don't think because a person has not forgiven something means they are living in emotional hell, it may mean for the first time they are not. Lol

Maybe putting the problem in the rear view, and not looking back is the best way. :)

Yup! :yes: Exactly how I look at it. I still like Hammer's look at it, but sometimes, I feel that vocalizing the lack of forgiveness was a way of telling a person they still had a responsibility to 'repent' I think.

I think 'letting go' sometimes, might be dangerous. I wonder, what if you're letting go of something you're not done dealing with yet? I wonder if that might lead to worse situations.

Wow, Hammer what kind words, I am humbled. Thank you so much. Alpha female, wow I love that.

Gosh, your post is astounding in insight, I think I am going to save this part, "It says to the ones they forgive that for the pain I endured because of you, you must now bear an equal measure of guilt and remorse" (Hammer).

Gosh, you teach me so much.

Another Sheri story: I have had to give up on my Mom, it was tough for her, really tough and I said one sentence for a year straight: Mom I love you, but this will not work. She tried guilt, manipulating, begging, lashing out in emails. I kept resending her the email, for a year solid. Then one day, I got an email from her that said "what do I need to do to make things right." I outlined the terms and she agreed and honoured each one of them: she never took me for granted again, we even took a Psychology class together, and for 5 years ( she died from lung cancer) we worked on our relationship (that was severely damaged and non existant). While we didn't get as far as I would have liked; I am deeply proud of my mom for the effort she put into our relationship and for how hard she worked on her personal growth. It was remarkable.

I always think, no matter what one does to help and retain a relationship, ( even if it hadn't reached a level of what it was before ) is still making a relationship better than what you feared it would be. I think it's great mom realized what she needed to do and did her part in the healing process.

So, I wonder, if it's the healing and the constant work at it from those who needed forgiveness that still has good memories from, even if it was still in the process?

I ask this as to see how those last few years with your mom, was probably the most loving and great moments, despite it was still a work in process, Sheri. :)

In my experience, It does help.

Then I agree. Something else to reflect on. :yes: ( I always get the warm and fuzzies with your advice, Sheri. :) )

You have clearly been through forgiveness too. It's reflected in the wisdom of your posts. You are a wise man.

I second that. :yes:

That defines the difference between forgiveness and just letting things slide. To forgive does not mean to let someone off the hook for their transgressions, it means you give them the opportunity to make amends. If someone is not held accountable for a wrong they do, they will probably never make it right. Bitterness and resentment usually follows.

Wow, Hammer. I have found you contributed a huge amount of wisdom in looking at this. This excites me! :yes:

It's an interesting and thought provoking topic you have chosen Miss Mustard (can I call you that?) :) ...name change huh ? :P

Well, it's understandable if you do. :yes: And I'm planning to go back to Stubs. It's just the 90 days is not up yet. You see what happens when you let a spice take over your brain!!!! :o;)
Yeah - as far as the trust thing goes...as in gaining it back. Idk - as I think it depends on the individual - and of course the 'wrong' that was done to them.

Speaking for myself - I am not a religious person. But I know there are many people who do have a strong religious faith, and may find it in themselves - more so than I - to be able to fully trust again - after the hurt that may have been bestowed on them.

In one sense, as a believer myself, I can see this. I wonder, if it's their faith, (like mine) that does something for them ( if subjective evidential for them like I think with mine ) and that's how they can. I wonder, is there a reason it does that for them and how they see the person that wronged them. And, I wonder with them ( and me ) if that is actually the emotionally healthy way of doing it. That's why I like to break down the differences of believer's and secular's way of looking at forgiveness. See the difference, see how it's done each way and what examples are from it.
If anything - I think carrying the hurt / or grudge for years is a waste of precious time. And one has to be careful not to allow bitterness and resentment to take over their life.
I agree. :yes: If anything, I think that thought of preventing and healing from the years of bitterness, is something that is very considerate and caring.
Depending what the hurt is / or was...sure I can forgive in time. But there still remains that little voice in my head that says "tread with caution"...thus a lack of gaining full trust again.
Yup, I agree as well. I think, that might be a sole similarity in both skeptic's and Believer's outlook on how they forgive. Trust is universal, and it cannot be extremely broken down. From my point of view, at least.
You know - we are all human...and we are all capable of hurting others in one way or another. I am certainly no angel :innocent:
Yup, good thing to point out. That we're all human. Not you pointing out you're no angel. :no: Although........ I might be more so :devil: so I may have to watch myself more. :o ............................ :D
See what you've done - now I'm starting to confess :cry:

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelll.................. it has been shown that I have an ulterior motive. Mhwahahahahaha

..... just kidding. Although, I wonder, if this thread can be healing to some. :)

Thank you again, Astra.

I have taught my sons since they were little boys, if another gives you the honor of having their trust, never ever violate that. It is the greatest gift you can have and if you lose it the smart ones will not give you a second chance and they would be right not to.

Wise words.
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Stubbly_Dooright

Thanks for an interesting thread Mustard Lady.

For me, forgiveness is a contingent upon personal relationships and social contract. It has an emotional character and repercussions. We all have a group of people that we relate to and with whom we wish to maintain harmonious and beneficial relationships. It might be friends, family, or work relationships. An individual can do something hurtful to you sometimes intentionally, sometimes by accident. If the individual regrets the action and wishes to recover harmony in the relationship and expresses that, then forgiveness might be the appropriate response. We restore a good relationship, which has benefits to both sides.

You're welcome. :)

But, I wonder, do you forgive just like that? Is it the healthy way to do that, just to keep a relationship, any relationship, going? What if issues rise up, because they just can't stay down?

( I must say, your points are things that should be looked upon )

Forgiveness can also be applied to yourself. You may be the most important person for you to forgive in order to maintain good mental health.
Yes, I have noticed many who speak of this. In which, is important that it is brought up in this thread, I commend those who do. But, I think even forgiving others, for myself, just like that, is that really healthy mentally? Are you implying that one quietly 'forgives' just like that will actually help their mental health? What if they don't mean it? Aren't they lying to themselves? I would think that would cause more problems mentally and emotionally to the person wronged.

( keep in mind, good points here in this post. This thread is here to bring up and reflect on all points about forgiveness )

So, on that note, how is it anyone, believer and skeptic, can instantly forgive another (quietly ) with all the unresolved and unappeased issues that are part of the result of being wrong. How is it done and how does it help ease the issues understandingly occurring naturally in the wronged?

As for the rest of society, forgiveness may be moot. Living, especially in difficult circumstances requires focus and presence. People stream through your life. Sometimes they help, sometimes they hinder you on the path of your life. Whatever the case,you are best served by overcoming obstacles and continuing with your life. I do not forgive people that cut me off in traffic or do something offensive at work if I have no relationship with them.
Nice! An interesting look at that, the non-relationship subjects. Good call on that.
I forget them and refocus on where I am and where I need to go. To forgive a stranger for a passing offense without the stranger even knowing you have forgiven him seems presumptuous somehow, as if you are pretending to be a deity and dispensing grace.
I agree. Nice points here. Thank you.
Advice to forgive is good in the sense that you have no time to dwell on the past and harbor un-diffused anger.
I can see how that can be that in essence, but does it help the issues though?
It is unhealthy. I do it too. I carry a lot more baggage than is healthy. I found a way that works for me to release that anger. There are many. Maybe for some forgiveness is a way.

Ahhhh, nice post. Thank you Tatetopa! :tu: And yes, I think that is the key, I know I do it, finding a way that works to release the anger. My way of doing it helps very much. I also feel, that my belief showed me the way. And yes, I have to agree, to some, forgiveness is a way. I am finding out in this thread, Forgiveness can mean many different things, so I see it more subjective than objective.

I am wondering, how those who suggest to behave in forgiveness in an objective way, really understand what they are suggesting?

Good post and thank you. :yes:

Forgiveness is not a must.

When thoughts of revenge surface, then that's time to stop and think.

Just my two Zinc cents.

Bingo!!! Short and sweet eh, davros?!?! :D

But, this is perfect. Thank you. I agree.

Yes, reflecting if it's still an issue with you, one must stop and think. That's why, one shouldn't push themselves to forgive, if they don't mean it. I just think it's a recipe for dangerous roads ahead.

Your 2 cents is very valuable. :tu:

I saw a meme on FB that said, "Forgive your enemy, but remember the b******'s name."

I had a big yellow tom cat, (Actually, he was the dog's cat.) He was from a neighbor who was feeding a lot of strays. A guy came by and poisoned them, my yellow tom had got out that night and got caught up in it. I had to have him put down, he was in great pain. Should I forgive this guy? If I could have found enough proof I could have had him arrested for cruelty to animals, then there would be justice. But to forgive that kind of cruelty, it is not going to happen as long as I can remember the cries of my tom in pain.

I can forgive people for a lot of things, if you steal money from me out of need, I can forgive that. That don't mean I'll trust you. Forgiveness and trust must be earned. Just cause I don't forgive that guy, doesn't mean I am going to let it eat me up with hate and anger, but that don't mean I am going to let it go either. He lives behind me on the next street and I have to deal civilly with him occasionally, but If it was legal I would shoot the b*****d.

Yes, GmG, I think this is a very good example to show how things can be very tricky when it comes forgiving. I wouldn't either, for your neighbor. One, I think it's because he wouldn't believe he was in the wrong. Two, ( as a cat lover :o:cry: Nooooooo ) That would be the last thing I do for that guy. I can understand the lack of wanting to start something, but in a sense, I would go to the animal services and report him. ( I have a feeling, I would be backed up by others neighbors. I think you would be too, if you did report him. ) But that's me.

I love your post, GmG. Thank you, and I think this is a good example, of how the wrong doer can be seen as unforgiving.

oops, double post.

Well........................ I can't forgive you for that!!! :o

;) ............................ just kidding.

GmG

It is interesting that it can be more difficult to forgive harm done to somebody else, than harm done to ourselves.

Had the tomcat forgiven the man, then the picture would be different. If the man now were to rescue a cat from a shelter and give that cat a good life, then the picture would be different.

As it stands? You're right not to let it eat you up, even to be civil to the creep when that's inevitable. And part of the problem is to accept that you can't "fix" it, no matter what.

No solution. This is why people go for karma or a god with a mean streak. It would serve the creep right if what goes around would come around, upside his head. It would also be nice to think the tomcat gets some compensation.

Coldly, I don't think either one really happens. Part of the problem is to accept that, too, IMO. And then you can work on forgiveness - someday when you have nothing better to do.

Ooooh 8bits, thank you for coming into this thread! :) And good points. Yeah, despite that the cats cannot speak our language, what about them and if they forgive. I think it would be interesting to reflect on the how animals see this. Do they forgive or not forgive? Do they have a concept to that? ( and yes the cats should get compensation. :devil: )

Over all, I love these points.

and then

I am skeptical of "fake it until you make it." There are degrees of forgiveness. I can believe that "thought naming" (as the Buddhists might call it, turning your attention to a thought and recognizing it as a thought rather than an aspect of yourself) lowers the temperature, so to speak. Prayer can be a lot like thought naming as an exercise.

Also, as you say, when sobriety is not negotiable, then whatever makes sobriety possible is necessary. I just wonder that there might be a residual unforgiven layer of past grievance. I don't know, of course.

And this is what I'm talking about. I'm glad I'm not the only one who reflects on this. This is where I wonder, if there are examples of success in many versions of forgiving, secular and believer. Now 'and then' says it helped him. I don't doubt him. I wish there was a reflection in how this particular way did actually help and if there weren't any 'set backs' in the issues toward those who wronged him.

But, your points I agree with.

Thank you 8bits :)

That's terrible - so sorry to read about your cat and the other poor animals that suffered. What a low and gutless thing for somebody to do. Even if you know in your heart the person who was responsible for this - it's good that you aren't letting the hatred and anger eat at you too much - as you are only hurting yourself in the end. Let natural justice takes it's own course with this wicked person. In one way or another - they will get what's coming to them.

Any type of cruelty to animals or children is totally unforgivable in my book. As you mentioned - there are some things that one can forgive and / or eventually forgive. But depending what the hurt was - the actual trust remains frayed.

So totally agree.

Like I am reflecting here, there are many levels of what should be forgiven and what should be not.

How, some can forgive murderers, is beyond me. I wonder, if they realize they really mean that. I don't know.

But good posts so far from the most of you, thank you!!!

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Sherapy

I saw a meme on FB that said, "Forgive your enemy, but remember the b******'s name."

I had a big yellow tom cat, (Actually, he was the dog's cat.) He was from a neighbor who was feeding a lot of strays. A guy came by and poisoned them, my yellow tom had got out that night and got caught up in it. I had to have him put down, he was in great pain. Should I forgive this guy? If I could have found enough proof I could have had him arrested for cruelty to animals, then there would be justice. But to forgive that kind of cruelty, it is not going to happen as long as I can remember the cries of my tom in pain.

I can forgive people for a lot of things, if you steal money from me out of need, I can forgive that. That don't mean I'll trust you. Forgiveness and trust must be earned. Just cause I don't forgive that guy, doesn't mean I am going to let it eat me up with hate and anger, but that don't mean I am going to let it go either. He lives behind me on the next street and I have to deal civilly with him occasionally, but If it was legal I would shoot the b*****d.

This was heart wrenching to read. I am deeply sorry for you and your cat, and the "if it was legal part" I can understand.

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Sherapy

Thank you for answering me.

And yeah, I see your point. I feel the same way. And like I said, that original line in your previous post, I do find satisfying.

*Chalk in how vocal forgiveness to a person is now handling them a role in their responsibility toward the person they wronged.*

You see, I always thought vocalizing your forgiveness toward someone else, was letting them off the hook. That was always what the wrong doer always seemed to assumed and behave.

I must have been doing the forgiving wrong.

*shrugs*

Yup! :yes: Exactly how I look at it. I still like Hammer's look at it, but sometimes, I feel that vocalizing the lack of forgiveness was a way of telling a person they still had a responsibility to 'repent' I think.

I think 'letting go' sometimes, might be dangerous. I wonder, what if you're letting go of something you're not done dealing with yet? I wonder if that might lead to worse situations.

I always think, no matter what one does to help and retain a relationship, ( even if it hadn't reached a level of what it was before ) is still making a relationship better than what you feared it would be. I think it's great mom realized what she needed to do and did her part in the healing process.

So, I wonder, if it's the healing and the constant work at it from those who needed forgiveness that still has good memories from, even if it was still in the process?

I ask this as to see how those last few years with your mom, was probably the most loving and great moments, despite it was still a work in process, Sheri. :)

Then I agree. Something else to reflect on. :yes: ( I always get the warm and fuzzies with your advice, Sheri. :) )

I second that. :yes:

Wow, Hammer. I have found you contributed a huge amount of wisdom in looking at this. This excites me! :yes:

Well, it's understandable if you do. :yes: And I'm planning to go back to Stubs. It's just the 90 days is not up yet. You see what happens when you let a spice take over your brain!!!! :o;)

In one sense, as a believer myself, I can see this. I wonder, if it's their faith, (like mine) that does something for them ( if subjective evidential for them like I think with mine ) and that's how they can. I wonder, is there a reason it does that for them and how they see the person that wronged them. And, I wonder with them ( and me ) if that is actually the emotionally healthy way of doing it. That's why I like to break down the differences of believer's and secular's way of looking at forgiveness. See the difference, see how it's done each way and what examples are from it.

I agree. :yes: If anything, I think that thought of preventing and healing from the years of bitterness, is something that is very considerate and caring.

Yup, I agree as well. I think, that might be a sole similarity in both skeptic's and Believer's outlook on how they forgive. Trust is universal, and it cannot be extremely broken down. From my point of view, at least.

Yup, good thing to point out. That we're all human. Not you pointing out you're no angel. :no: Although........ I might be more so :devil: so I may have to watch myself more. :o ............................ :D

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelll.................. it has been shown that I have an ulterior motive. Mhwahahahahaha

..... just kidding. Although, I wonder, if this thread can be healing to some. :)

Thank you again, Astra.

Wise words.

For me, prior to cutting my Mom off, it was constant drama, upsetting, and one sided. In a sense, ending the relationship was an act of forgiveness, for me, letting go of the hope of having a Mom and for her not being able to be a mom. A chance to be at peace.( I was in therapy too for the year dealing with my issues, the process was incredibly fruitful).

As time passed, I began to see the relationship for what it was, it was dysfunctional and harmful. I had been allowing this because it was my mom and I thought I was supposed to "put up with." In retrospect, I came to realize my error was in not moving on much sooner. Space gave me objectivity and the insight I Lacked before, in allowing the situation I was contributing to the stagnation. I grew a lot personally. I also found my forgiveness voice, and I think we all have the one that works best for us. Mine it turns out is gentle, yet firm.

I didn't anticipate that my mom would genuinely ask for a second chance, but that is what came of it and it wasn't a difficult thing for me to give, for me as long as she did her part I would do mine. ( by now, I had the skills to help us forge a better relationship).

Your question is a good one, was it better even though we didn't get very far, then having no relationship at all. I think my Mom's actions say that, for her it was not better; for me, the second chance still contributed to a lot of personal growth, I then sense I had a oppourtunity to apply what I was learning.

My original choice to end the relationship led to me assuming responsibility for seeking functional understandings/ skills to nurture quality relationships. IMHO Forgiveness in this case opened the space for me to work on healing with or with out my mom.

Edited by Sherapy
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