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Stubbly_Dooright

Forgiveness

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, Mr. Sister Elle Sade Ai Ni said:

the power to forget is there too

soon as we remember all we thought and did 

it is easier to forget what others did

 

i know this by reading the st francis of assisi prayer...where there is hurt let there be healing....

 

at first i was all wah wah my hurt i want heals, they hurt me bad, heals please

then it changed me and i became where i hurt them, let there be healing and let me be a part of that by intention and/or action

many secular songs was my introduction to this type of narrative switching....from first to last's song secrets don't make friends is a good example

first it was my wife then i saw it was me...all me...it was always between me and me

 

  Reveal hidden contents
 
 
 

"Secrets Don't Make Friends"

 

 

This place is a bloodbath
And we won't be taken alive
We stand alone
Under fictitious skies

You were always my enemy carefully crafting my demise 
You were always my enemy carefully crafting my demise 

Our hearts beat strong under fictitious skies
You were always my enemy, you suck the life out of me

Your words are deadly weapons
Killing me, destroying me
Your words are deadly weapons
Scatter my brains across the wall

You were my compass
Leading me to nowhere fast
Promises were lonely roads
I followed you down like a map (like a map, like a map)

Your words are deadly weapons
Killing me, destroying me
Your words are deadly weapons
Scatter my brains across the wall

 

and hold hands....ok

"cumbaya milord, cumbaya milady too"

 

wait? would not apathy mean there is nothing to forgive? as the apathetic do not care one way or another?

but i can also read your statement another way which would make perfect sense...
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

if forgivness was a transaction as many believe it to be...quid pro quo...then if you already forgave (by doing this from the future into the past) then all you did could be voided.

as the currency of apathy would allow. yet in the future you might return to the currency of empathy (and thus go back to the past and forgive many instances from when you did care before)

 

and so it is

 

 

 

my perspective is based on the following:

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

 

http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide

 
&

 

 

And this is where I'm glad the religious side contributes. I see this point of view, and am fascinated how it does this for you in the positive state. Is it permanent for you? 

I often feel, that my belief helps me, and kind of like you you put it. I wonder at this bit, when you think of the 'gifts' one sees in their belief system. But, I wonder, though, how important forgiveness is part of this?

16 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

People which are able to repent and are able for feeling guilt. For them the forgiveness.

For others - Eye for an Eye.

Yup, usually my thinking. 

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simplybill
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I know what s'more are. 

 

3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

S'more-or-less?

It’s important to use Ghirardelli chocolate and non-GMO marshmallows. To save the planet, you know. 

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Hammerclaw
19 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

That's how I feel. I hope you don't mind me asking Likely Guy, do you have any experiences that might has a different perspective on this? If you don't, or don't want to discuss, it's ok. 

At first, I was going to ask, if there is any experiences with this, then I saw the bigger picture. :D  

I can totally dig that. :yes:  

I think this is a wonderful contribution to this thread. I think, bingo!! Plus, I find it very interesting how you brought in religious and none religious thinking in this. This was a wonderful post, thank you. 

Thank you! This is what I'm talking about!!! :yes:

Exactly. This is what I consider. 

You just can't go wrong with chocolate!! 

Oh man, this brings up a memory. When I a kid, a neighborhood girl had a party, and didn't invite me. I was mad at her, and when meeting up with her and told her how I felt, she gave me a piece of candy, in which I took, ate it, and ........ forgave her. To this day, I regret that. I regret allowing her to do this little bit, and not taking responsibility of the bigger picture. I think I was too gullible then. 

 

Reminds me  of a line from the song, Woman In Chains by Tears for Fears

"Well I feel, deep in your heart there are wounds time can't heal."

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, Mr. Sister Elle Sade Ai Ni said:

the power to forget is there too

soon as we remember all we thought and did 

it is easier to forget what others did

 

i know this by reading the st francis of assisi prayer...where there is hurt let there be healing....

And Shakespeare wrote: "Nymph, in thy orisons, be all my sins remembered."
"

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Hammerclaw
18 minutes ago, simplybill said:

 

It’s important to use Ghirardelli chocolate and non-GMO marshmallows. To save the planet, you know. 

Might as well, since they don't make real Hershey's Chocolate, anymore.

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

You know, I cannot disagree with this. I think it's universal, when there is forgiveness, one let's go of something. 

Well said!! I feel that way. I think, in the variety of ways, many posters in this thread have shown that in their experiences. 

Thank for each of that. That's how I feel, and I am hoping that what we get from this thread, is that how each of us, see the different point of views, and learn, is that it is different with each person, as well as how we believe or not believe. 

I know, I have learned from many here, and Simply has shown me a lot. 

Exactly. I think it's important to be said, that yes, not letting go, letting it rule you, yes I think it's ruining your life. And the healing, I think each one needs to do that, and yes, Sheri, thank you for saying this, getting the help you need. 

One thing I also realize, that other than the forgiveness process is not that simple, it is also many things wrapped up in it. So, it's ever changing on how it is done. 

Good post, Sheri!! :tu:  

Thank you. :yes: 

I think that's just it, when one sees it as a word without meaning. If someone sees it as that, I don't think they are forgiving properly. Exactly my feeling. Nice post as well. :tu: 

I like how you showed how you see it. Is this or does this tend to have a permanency for you? I hope you don't mind, if I ask you this. 

I love this bit. I use to be afraid of my emotions, and then when I confront them, and become comfortable with them, and see how they help me process my life. I welcome each emotion gladly. 

Nice input on that there, Sheri. :)  

I grew up camping with the family every summer. I have fond nostalgic memories of campfires. A lot can be said, so positively, with campfires. ;) 

I'm all for it! :D  

 

Awww thanks Stubbs ( with so many great posts ) that you addressed mine, too!:wub:

I think this thread is a book on forgiveness, of the best kind, because it shows how forgiveness is a multilayered, multipurpose, multidimensional and a profoundly deep subject. 

I have read a lot on forgiveness, have had lots of occasions to explore it in my own life and there is nothing  as comprehensive that conveys the journey of forgiveness from the perspective of being human as this thread does. And it keeps getting resurrected. Yay!!!!!!!!

I vote this the best thread on UM.

Seriously, put this in paper back book form and sell it on Amazon. 

I will help!!!!!!

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr. Argon said:

People which are able to repent and are able for feeling guilt. For them the forgiveness.

For others - Eye for an Eye.

I gotta say on the eye for an eye thing,( I call it karma), it has its place. 

 

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I gotta say on the eye for an eye thing,( I call it karma), it has its place. 

 

Even where Ahisma is practiced. They call it "Proportional Response."

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LightAngel
19 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think it is a positive way of looking at it. I do think this is something to reflect on and probably consider. :yes:

So, again, I thank you for your input. :)   

You are welcome.

I have a question, what kind of life do you want? 

Be careful that you don't play the same game as your enemies.

When we forgive then we do it for ourselves first of all (so we can let go of the anger) - The "wrong" that was done to us, will always be wrong, but we choose to let it go so we can move on.
It is always easier to forgive people who ask for forgiveness in a sincere way, but some people are too stubborn, or too stupid to ask for forgiveness! - Some people really can't see the consequences of their actions, they lack the intelligence and insight it takes to see clearly!

If you can't forgive, then the best revenge is to live well ;)

 

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simplybill

Sorry for derailing the thread with campfire recipes, Stubbly!

I have a new angle on Forgiveness that’s been rumbling around in my head: maybe at times reconciliation follows after Forgiveness, rather than following after an apology on the part of the offender.

 For example, in my own life and the unusual circumstances I grew up in (and other situations that I might share here when it seems appropriate) would there have been reconciliation if I hadn’t first made the decision to forgive? I think the aftermath of Forgiveness has had greater rewards in my life than the aftermath of unforgiveness would’ve been.

I’ll continue this thought later today when I’m off work.

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RAyMO
9 hours ago, Mr. Sister Elle Sade Ai Ni said:

The work calls into question the ‘consciousness’ of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how ‘free’ we are to make a choice at a particular point in time.

While accepting  the researchers arguments - could it be argued that decisions made, even those that are made before we are aware make them, are always the function of a lifetime of experience and ones socio-economic environment.

Therefore to forgive or not forgive - is a product of our life experiences.

Edited by RAyMO
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RAyMO

Oh Just a thought - may have already been covered, but short on time.

Is forgiveness absolute. By that I mean, the actual words "I forgive" are not on their own sufficient to actually confer true forgiveness. That requires a mindset that goes along with the words.

But is it possible to forgive - fully in word and mindset, and later to change ones mind and withdraw that forgiveness? 

I know it is possible not to forgive and then months, years later to find it possible to do so. 

In other words I am arguing that Forgiveness is sometimes relative.

Hopefully I make sense to someone.

 

Edited by RAyMO
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Sherapy
5 hours ago, LightAngel said:

You are welcome.

I have a question, what kind of life do you want? 

Be careful that you don't play the same game as your enemies.

When we forgive then we do it for ourselves first of all (so we can let go of the anger) - The "wrong" that was done to us, will always be wrong, but we choose to let it go so we can move on.
It is always easier to forgive people who ask for forgiveness in a sincere way, but some people are too stubborn, or too stupid to ask for forgiveness! - Some people really can't see the consequences of their actions, they lack the intelligence and insight it takes to see clearly!

If you can't forgive, then the best revenge is to live well ;)

 

I think anger would be an appropriate natural response at first in a betrayal or violent crime, murder of a loved one...etc. etc. 

It would encourage one to respect their anger and use it to stand up for themselves, to set boundaries, to take action, to put measures into place to stop any further harm, not forgiving gives the space to really look at the issue without pressure. 

I would add that unacknowledged anger is what turns to resentment, and causes the harm, or beleiveing your only option is to forgive so you can move on or you are no better then the offender. 

Forgiveness is a process:  anger, rumination, eventual positive reappraisal leads to insights and understandings that then lead to letting go or moving on and there are times it has little to do with forgiving anyone or reconciliation at all and more about accepting the reality of the situation. It takes what it takes. 

Forgiveness is a two way street, I would not bother with any kind of reconciliation if the offending party wasn't willing to do the work that leads to change. Simply because I would be setting myself up for more headaches, cuttimg ties would be the best outcome. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Aquila King
2 hours ago, RAyMO said:

But is it possible to forgive - fully in word and mindset, and later to change ones mind and withdraw that forgiveness? 

What immediately comes to mind to me is if put in a situation where the memories of when you were hurt by the person you've forgive are triggered to resurface, thereby evoking an emotional response that contradicts prior genuine forgiveness.

In other words I'd say yes, but I don't think it would be completely out of the blue.

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Aquila King

Was wondering why I hadn't seen this thread before now, then I notice the date it was first published lol. No wonder.

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Hammerclaw
27 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I think anger would be an appropriate natural response at first in a betrayal or violent crime, murder of a loved one...etc. etc. 

It would encourage one to respect their anger and use it to stand up for themselves, to set boundaries, to take action, to put measures into place to stop any further harm, not forgiving gives the space to really look at the issue without pressure. 

I would add that unacknowledged anger is what turns to resentment, and causes the harm, or beleiveing your only option is to forgive so you can move on or you are no better then the offender. 

Forgiveness is a process:  anger, rumination, eventual positive reappraisal leads to insights and understandings that then lead to letting go or moving on and there are times it has little to do with forgiving anyone or reconciliation at all and more about accepting the reality of the situation. It takes what it takes. 

Forgiveness is a two way street, I would not bother with any kind of reconciliation if the offending party wasn't willing to do the work that leads to change. Simply because I would be setting myself up for more headaches, cuttimg ties would be the best outcome. 

 

Yes, shake the dust off your feet and move on. Some friendships, gone awry, are beyond redemption.

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closed for business
15 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I once gave forgiveness as an act of charity and more often than not, rued the decision. Now I usually only give it if shown good reason to. Some people can simply not be trusted and will pounce on any perceived weakness if it is to their advantage.

True but they aren't likely to seek forgiveness so for me I just hit the human delete button and close the door on them.

jmccr8 

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Sherapy
9 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

True but they aren't likely to seek forgiveness so for me I just hit the human delete button and close the door on them.

jmccr8 

Exactly, it is a rare day when a person who has done something in need of forgiveness that actually puts forth the effort, whatever it takes to make things right. There are those that do but I don't think they are the norm. 

My trust don't come cheap. If a person violates it, I am civil and gracious about it, but being trusted again or forgiven is a no go and I don't feel bad about it. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw

I knew a rather intelligent lady who had a,seemingly infinite capacity for forgiveness and submitted to being wronged by the same person, over and over, again. I didn't understand such an appalling lapse of judgment and queried her about it, one day. She laughed at my consternation and had an interesting philosophy. She sincerely loved the cad, but said that-- if you don't expect any better of anyone, they can never disappoint you. I shook my head, heaved a deep sigh and walked away. I guess she was just laying up treasure in heaven.

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LightAngel
11 hours ago, Sherapy said:

 

Forgiveness is a process:

 

 

Of course, it's a process.

Maybe you didn't read what I said earlier.

Some things I can let go off easy and even forget about, other and more serious issues take time and a lot of soul searching. 

When we are in a healing process, then it's very important that we are honest about all our feelings, even the difficult ones.

We can't heal if we aren't honest about what we feel.

What I think you misunderstand here is the fact that I think we should forgive for ourselves first of all (we don't need to ever talk to our offender again) - But, if we don't forgive, then our offender will haunt our mind all our life, and we will be trapped in some negative circle.

 

 

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Hammerclaw
51 minutes ago, LightAngel said:

 

Of course, it's a process.

Maybe you didn't read what I said earlier.

Some things I can let go off easy and even forget about, other and more serious issues take time and a lot of soul searching. 

When we are in a healing process, then it's very important that we are honest about all our feelings, even the difficult ones.

We can't heal if we aren't honest about what we feel.

What I think you misunderstand here is the fact that I think we should forgive for ourselves first of all (we don't need to ever talk to our offender again) - But, if we don't forgive, then our offender will haunt our mind all our life, and we will be trapped in some negative circle.

 

 

The only thing Sheri has to forgive herself of is being good-hearted to a fault--especially of people not worthy of the salt of her tears. The most recent has left this world, never to be spoken to, again. Thereafter followed a new-found friend she was caring for who was taken from her after the complications from a fall. That caused her much anguish and heartache but with an admirable effort of will she's overcome the trauma of both occurrences and has made herself whole, again. One night, after my mother died when I was teetering on the precipice of despair, her kindness stopped me from doing something I would have not lived to regret. I know you mean well, kind lady and there is wisdom in your words, but you are not the only Angel here.

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Stubbly_Dooright
22 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Awww thanks Stubbs ( with so many great posts ) that you addressed mine, too!:wub:

I think this thread is a book on forgiveness, of the best kind, because it shows how forgiveness is a multilayered, multipurpose, multidimensional and a profoundly deep subject. 

I have read a lot on forgiveness, have had lots of occasions to explore it in my own life and there is nothing  as comprehensive that conveys the journey of forgiveness from the perspective of being human as this thread does. And it keeps getting resurrected. Yay!!!!!!!!

I vote this the best thread on UM.

Seriously, put this in paper back book form and sell it on Amazon. 

I will help!!!!!!

 

 

:blush:  

Though, I will see what I can do by looking through this thread. This makes me go :hmm:  

Thanks Sheri. You made my night. 

18 hours ago, LightAngel said:

You are welcome.

I have a question, what kind of life do you want? 

What an interesting question. You know, my first and second thought upon first reading this question was, well a life I thought I was suppose to have, that meant doing things very showy and something to brag about. Then I realized, I am content with what I have now, nothing to brag about, but it makes me smile inside. 

Quote

Be careful that you don't play the same game as your enemies.

Oh, I believe that and feel I have taught that to my children. 

Quote

When we forgive then we do it for ourselves first of all (so we can let go of the anger) - The "wrong" that was done to us, will always be wrong, but we choose to let it go so we can move on.

You see, this is the part I don't get. Maybe I'm unique, but I think about forgiving, it's not something I feel is for me, but for others. (if they earned it.) I think you're right, the 'wrong' done to us, will always be there, but do we choose to let it go, or do we help ourselves to how we know ourselves to help in the way we need? I think, in how I have done for myself, I let go, if I'm intuned with it. Forgiving, if just doing it, doesn't seem to let go. It just seems to sit there, if anyone understands what I mean. I think, you have to mean it. If you don't, you actually not doing it. 

Maybe it's also a unique thing with me, but I feel, I have moved on, when I honestly do not forgive. It's more like putting a tack on that and put it on the board as a mark of it, and then I move on. 

Here's another thing I have recently reflected on. There maybe some negative (and honest feelings) that are there, and maybe they will stay on. Maybe, those are the scars?? I'm thinking is dealing with those scars in a healthy manner. Kind of like my situations with me and what has happened when I was involved in a car accident years ago. Since then, being in a car going around fast turns, scare the crap out of me. It's something I have accepted. It's not something that I feel, I should 'let go', because I can't. So, either I don't travel with people who like to drive fast around corners, have wonderful people who I ride with, who won't do it, or if necessary, close my eyes, curl up, and then kiss the friggin ground, when I finally get out of the car. I think it's all in how we manage the negative feelings, and use it for good and well being. I think, it's important to identify you true feelings, instead of trying to push them out, when you really can't. 

But, then, that's me. *shrugs* 

Quote

It is always easier to forgive people who ask for forgiveness in a sincere way, but some people are too stubborn, or too stupid to ask for forgiveness! - Some people really can't see the consequences of their actions, they lack the intelligence and insight it takes to see clearly!

If you can't forgive, then the best revenge is to live well ;)

Oh yeah, that last line is what I go by. :yes: 

And to those stubborn ones, well, I end up pitying them. I feel, they're more having to live with their situations and who they are, and I'm glad I'm not them. 

I wonder LightAngel, do you have experiences where this works for you and it's permanent? That is another reason for this thread. I want to know how it has worked and permanently too. :yes: 

 

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LightAngel
23 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The only thing Sheri has to forgive herself of is being good-hearted to a fault--especially of people not worthy of the salt of her tears. The most recent has left this world, never to be spoken to, again. Thereafter followed a new-found friend she was caring for who was taken from her after the complications from a fall. That caused her much anguish and heartache but with an admirable effort of will she's overcome the trauma of both occurrences and has made herself whole, again. One night, after my mother died when I was teetering on the precipice of despair, her kindness stopped me from doing something I would have not lived to regret. I know you mean well, kind lady and there is wisdom in your words, but you are not the only Angel here.

 

I wasn't being personal here, I was speaking in general.

I'm sure Sheri is a sweetheart ;)

 

Edited by LightAngel
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Stubbly_Dooright
18 hours ago, simplybill said:

Sorry for derailing the thread with campfire recipes, Stubbly!

I have a new angle on Forgiveness that’s been rumbling around in my head: maybe at times reconciliation follows after Forgiveness, rather than following after an apology on the part of the offender.

 For example, in my own life and the unusual circumstances I grew up in (and other situations that I might share here when it seems appropriate) would there have been reconciliation if I hadn’t first made the decision to forgive? I think the aftermath of Forgiveness has had greater rewards in my life than the aftermath of unforgiveness would’ve been.

I’ll continue this thought later today when I’m off work.

Yes, I'm curious to more of this. I wonder though, in a sense, I think you're right. The reconciliation after forgiveness is a wonderful thing. But, what if both were not something to be done, and it's not what it seems? 

But when you discussed chocolate, the derailing is excused!!!!!! :D  :tu: 

16 hours ago, RAyMO said:

While accepting  the researchers arguments - could it be argued that decisions made, even those that are made before we are aware make them, are always the function of a lifetime of experience and ones socio-economic environment.

Therefore to forgive or not forgive - is a product of our life experiences.

Could you elaborate more on this? I'm very interested. 

15 hours ago, RAyMO said:

Oh Just a thought - may have already been covered, but short on time.

Is forgiveness absolute. By that I mean, the actual words "I forgive" are not on their own sufficient to actually confer true forgiveness. That requires a mindset that goes along with the words.

But is it possible to forgive - fully in word and mindset, and later to change ones mind and withdraw that forgiveness? 

I know it is possible not to forgive and then months, years later to find it possible to do so. 

In other words I am arguing that Forgiveness is sometimes relative.

Hopefully I make sense to someone.

 

Oh, I think you do, and I think in the same line of my asking if it's permanent. I hope your post opens up some answers to this. 

 

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Hammerclaw
8 minutes ago, LightAngel said:

 

I wasn't being personal here, I was speaking in general.

I'm sure Sheri is a sweetheart ;)

 

As I'm sure you are, too.B)

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