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Stubbly_Dooright

Forgiveness

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Podo

I don't really take part in forgiveness in the traditional sense. Here's why.

It seems that most people, when speaking of forgiveness, expect some kind of active pretending that the forgivable act never happened, and I think that is garbage. If someone does something to me, or to someone else, that is something I consider reprehensible, I'm not going to forget, because I do not personally believe that people can change. I think we have our basic natures and while we may be able to change our behaviour, we do not change who we are or what our tendencies are. So, once a liar, always a liar, once physically violent always physically violent, etc.

As such, I don't forget. I'll forgive in the sense that I will cease being angry at whatever the offending action was, but I won't ever forget that it happened. For example, I had a friend many years ago that lied to me and our shared group of friends about something moderately important. He got caught, and professed remorse, but it was clear that he was only sorry that he got caught, not that he lied. After several months of distrust, he slowly began reintegrating into the group of friends, to my sole protests. But I let it go, I wasn't a dick to him, but I was always (on some level) skeptical of things that he said, promises he made, etc. And then, sure enough, less than six months later he got caught lying about something else. I, out of our entire friend circle, was the only one not burned by him on the second time, because I had learned not to trust him. We could still be friends, and we still occasionally see each other, but I will not forget that he is a demonstrated liar. I'm not salty about it, but I do not forget.

I think this is pragmatic. To fully forgive him would have been to open myself up to future issues, like my other friends did. I see no reason to risk myself that way. Transgressions need not be held against someone for the rest of their life, but they also should not be dismissed as though they have never happened. A person's transgressions follow them, and for good reason. I wear and own mine, and I expect the same from others.

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Stubbly_Dooright

For me, prior to cutting my Mom off, it was constant drama, upsetting, and one sided. In a sense, ending the relationship was an act of forgiveness, for me, letting go of the hope of having a Mom and for her not being able to be a mom. A chance to be at peace.( I was in therapy too for the year dealing with my issues, the process was incredibly fruitful).

As time passed, I began to see the relationship for what it was, it was dysfunctional and harmful. I had been allowing this because it was my mom and I thought I was supposed to "put up with." In retrospect, I came to realize my error was in not moving on much sooner. Space gave me objectivity and the insight I Lacked before, in allowing the situation I was contributing to the stagnation. I grew a lot personally. I also found my forgiveness voice, and I think we all have the one that works best for us. Mine it turns out is gentle, yet firm.

I didn't anticipate that my mom would genuinely ask for a second chance, but that is what came of it and it wasn't a difficult thing for me to give, for me as long as she did her part I would do mine. ( by now, I had the skills to help us forge a better relationship).

Your question is a good one, was it better even though we didn't get very far, then having no relationship at all. I think my Mom's actions say that, for her it was not better; for me, the second chance still contributed to a lot of personal growth, I then sense I had a oppourtunity to apply what I was learning.

My original choice to end the relationship led to me assuming responsibility for seeking functional understandings/ skills to nurture quality relationships. IMHO Forgiveness in this case opened the space for me to work on healing with or with out my mom.

Thank you, Sheri, so much for going deep into this and using your example with your mother as an example of the many levels of forgiveness. I think it's very interesting, ( and I agree whole heartily) that's it's a forgiveness on your part to separate yourself from your mom. That's a point of view, a way of looking at it, I don't see very often. Actually, I don't think a lot of those even look at it that way. *shrugs* It seems, with most, and those of that in beliefs, that see it as a must to continue the relationship, whether it's healthy or not. Your example shows, that sometimes you have to cut it off to heal. Probably for both parties. So, in a sense, your example shows the positive in the necessary separation.

But yes, I am glad you replied to me on that question. I guess, it's kind of a 'don't take anything for granted' type of thing. So, having the time you did, mostly so with your mother reaching out, is more of a plus, than I have seen those who instantly 'forgave' just to have that 'same' relationship with someone, that others lecture about. I think wrong kind of advice. Because it wont be the same, thanks to the wrong doer, and hiding it under fake acceptance will not keep it from boiling over and cause more grief in the end. Nothing is perfect, and those who exclaim that it will be under some form of perceived feelings one gets from an act that is not the right thing to do. Better to be satisffied with what there is and the time you do have, even if from a far.

I want to say, (((HUGS))) friend. To see you go through that, I'm thinking of you. :yes::wub:

I don't really take part in forgiveness in the traditional sense. Here's why.

It seems that most people, when speaking of forgiveness, expect some kind of active pretending that the forgivable act never happened, and I think that is garbage. If someone does something to me, or to someone else, that is something I consider reprehensible, I'm not going to forget, because I do not personally believe that people can change. I think we have our basic natures and while we may be able to change our behaviour, we do not change who we are or what our tendencies are. So, once a liar, always a liar, once physically violent always physically violent, etc.

As such, I don't forget. I'll forgive in the sense that I will cease being angry at whatever the offending action was, but I won't ever forget that it happened. For example, I had a friend many years ago that lied to me and our shared group of friends about something moderately important. He got caught, and professed remorse, but it was clear that he was only sorry that he got caught, not that he lied. After several months of distrust, he slowly began reintegrating into the group of friends, to my sole protests. But I let it go, I wasn't a dick to him, but I was always (on some level) skeptical of things that he said, promises he made, etc. And then, sure enough, less than six months later he got caught lying about something else. I, out of our entire friend circle, was the only one not burned by him on the second time, because I had learned not to trust him. We could still be friends, and we still occasionally see each other, but I will not forget that he is a demonstrated liar. I'm not salty about it, but I do not forget.

I think this is pragmatic. To fully forgive him would have been to open myself up to future issues, like my other friends did. I see no reason to risk myself that way. Transgressions need not be held against someone for the rest of their life, but they also should not be dismissed as though they have never happened. A person's transgressions follow them, and for good reason. I wear and own mine, and I expect the same from others.

Podo, thank you! :tu: Your post, I find this awesome!!!

I would put this under a more secular way, but I see elements of what it may have been perceived as what is said by some believers. ( well if only through my point of view at least. ;) ) Anyways, I find this more so close to what and how I see it. In fact, from your experience from your friend, you learned to protect yourself first, and allowing them to see that they owe up to responsibility of their act, if not by the sign you don't trust him. ( You know, in that act, I think how the wronged can work through their anger at the satisfaction of knowing that they are sending a message to the wrong doer, and giving themselves the space to heal in how they see fit. )

I agree with you most heartily on this. Thank you for your contribution. This post makes me want to go BAM!!! Right on the money! :tu:

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Xeno-Fish

That's the interesting thing though. No matter how much you forgive someone, there is always a seed of doubt growing in the back of your mind. You'll find yourself forever cautious.

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back to earth

IMO - thats the idea.

I had a 'new friend' , still sussing him out, a couple of times I put trust in him and he failed miserably ... so I remembered that and didnt put myself in any more situations where I depended on him ... he still kept ******* up so I had little to do with him .

Then he wanted forgiveness and said I kept 'living in the past' ..... sure .... I bet he he wanted that !

I learn from past mistakes ... I dont wipe the memory and 'forgive' people . I dont hang on to it either , in that case , he failed, and I moved on, it was him that whinged and whined about it. It was him that needed the 'forgiveness' .... he wanted to be accepted for what he was ( an untrustworthy ' snake-in-the-grass ' ) ... nah ! Try someone else for that .

On the other end of the scale .... I had a lot of reactive issues with XGF .... did I need to 'forgive ' her for what happened ? Nope. I knew what I was getting into in the first place and what could potentially occur, and I chose to accept that .

Then again, I may be aberrant .... friends tell me mammoth things that bug then dont seem to effect me, yet things they think insignificant I give importance to .... shrug.gif

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Mr Walker

The Mustard Lady says:

Although, those who forgive others in secret, is that the same thing though? Because that's not telling the the wrong doer, they now have that responsibility.

That's not forgiveness, that's just letting things slide, which is very unsatisfying.

I might have missed the rest of the context for this quote but it rings false for me Forgiveness isn't about transferring acknowledgement of wrong doing to the perpetrator, it is about cleansing yourself of the effects on you.

There is no need to tell the person you have forgiven them and if you did, it is to make the feel better, not to cause some sense of guilt in them. I get the impression many posters don't WANT to let go and forgive, almost as if their anger hurt or distrust is somehow a good and necessary thing, or a natural response they would regret letting go of.

Accepting punishment, making restitution etc are the responsibility of the wrong doer.

Only the person wronged can forgive and this is to help themselves more than the wrong doer.

Some wrongdoers seek forgiveness and can benefit from it

Biblically there are three requirements of seeking forgiveness. To be truly sorry and remorseful, second to make restitution and set the wrong right, as far as possible, and third to sincerely make a promise to yourself never to do the same thing again. If a person is sincere in those three things then they deserve forgiveness, but it is up to the person wronged to give it freely. .

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Mr Walker

I saw a meme on FB that said, "Forgive your enemy, but remember the b******'s name."

I had a big yellow tom cat, (Actually, he was the dog's cat.) He was from a neighbor who was feeding a lot of strays. A guy came by and poisoned them, my yellow tom had got out that night and got caught up in it. I had to have him put down, he was in great pain. Should I forgive this guy? If I could have found enough proof I could have had him arrested for cruelty to animals, then there would be justice. But to forgive that kind of cruelty, it is not going to happen as long as I can remember the cries of my tom in pain.

I can forgive people for a lot of things, if you steal money from me out of need, I can forgive that. That don't mean I'll trust you. Forgiveness and trust must be earned. Just cause I don't forgive that guy, doesn't mean I am going to let it eat me up with hate and anger, but that don't mean I am going to let it go either. He lives behind me on the next street and I have to deal civilly with him occasionally, but If it was legal I would shoot the b*****d.

I think this illustrates why not forgiving is harmful to oneself. ( if it is given that i accept this as a true expression of your feelings and intent. )

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Stubbly_Dooright

That's the interesting thing though. No matter how much you forgive someone, there is always a seed of doubt growing in the back of your mind. You'll find yourself forever cautious.

I agree. I think this is something that the wrong doer needs to realize.

IMO - thats the idea.

I had a 'new friend' , still sussing him out, a couple of times I put trust in him and he failed miserably ... so I remembered that and didnt put myself in any more situations where I depended on him ... he still kept ******* up so I had little to do with him .

Then he wanted forgiveness and said I kept 'living in the past' ..... sure .... I bet he he wanted that !

I learn from past mistakes ... I dont wipe the memory and 'forgive' people . I dont hang on to it either , in that case , he failed, and I moved on, it was him that whinged and whined about it. It was him that needed the 'forgiveness' .... he wanted to be accepted for what he was ( an untrustworthy ' snake-in-the-grass ' ) ... nah ! Try someone else for that .

That gets me. Frankly, the wrong doer is in no position to lecture on how someone else forgives or deals with their pain in the wronged situation.

I would not be hesitant in saying that to that person.

I think you had the right outlook here, bte.

And did I thank you for this? :)

On the other end of the scale .... I had a lot of reactive issues with XGF .... did I need to 'forgive ' her for what happened ? Nope. I knew what I was getting into in the first place and what could potentially occur, and I chose to accept that .

Then again, I may be aberrant .... friends tell me mammoth things that bug then dont seem to effect me, yet things they think insignificant I give importance to .... shrug.gif

Now, this is an interesting bit for this thread. When you know what you get yourself into. In the end, you can't give forgiveness, because you kind of 'wanted it', if I'm getting that straight, bte?

I think this is something, that maybe some need to help deal with their pain, a bit of masochism there? ( again, if I'm getting that )

Sometimes, I wonder, do some need that, either before or after being wronged?

And that could be something for another thread as well. :cry::o ................... :devil:

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Mr Walker

I don't really take part in forgiveness in the traditional sense. Here's why.

It seems that most people, when speaking of forgiveness, expect some kind of active pretending that the forgivable act never happened, and I think that is garbage. If someone does something to me, or to someone else, that is something I consider reprehensible, I'm not going to forget, because I do not personally believe that people can change. I think we have our basic natures and while we may be able to change our behaviour, we do not change who we are or what our tendencies are. So, once a liar, always a liar, once physically violent always physically violent, etc.

As such, I don't forget. I'll forgive in the sense that I will cease being angry at whatever the offending action was, but I won't ever forget that it happened. For example, I had a friend many years ago that lied to me and our shared group of friends about something moderately important. He got caught, and professed remorse, but it was clear that he was only sorry that he got caught, not that he lied. After several months of distrust, he slowly began reintegrating into the group of friends, to my sole protests. But I let it go, I wasn't a dick to him, but I was always (on some level) skeptical of things that he said, promises he made, etc. And then, sure enough, less than six months later he got caught lying about something else. I, out of our entire friend circle, was the only one not burned by him on the second time, because I had learned not to trust him. We could still be friends, and we still occasionally see each other, but I will not forget that he is a demonstrated liar. I'm not salty about it, but I do not forget.

I think this is pragmatic. To fully forgive him would have been to open myself up to future issues, like my other friends did. I see no reason to risk myself that way. Transgressions need not be held against someone for the rest of their life, but they also should not be dismissed as though they have never happened. A person's transgressions follow them, and for good reason. I wear and own mine, and I expect the same from others.

I guess that shows why i disgree with you, All humanbeheviour is learned and thus can be relearned There are few if any human tendencies which are born into a person.

A few posters don't seem to get tha t it is not "active pretending" or false, when you actually alter your state of mind from one position to another. The forgiveness then is just as real and genuine as your anger or hate, or lack of forgiveness, held before hand Human emotions are CONSCIOUS constructs, and we get to choose them for ourselves if we have any sort of self discipline and self awareness.

I think it is much easier to forgive, if and when the wrong doer is also held accountable for their actions and pays a legal price for them, but this is not essential for forgiveness.

Leaving yourself open to being hurt or bitten again is really a separate issue I have lent money to a person many times and sometimes not got it back.

I am not a fool.

His family needed the money more than i did. I knew it was chance if i got it back, so when i lent it i was really giving it, with some chance of getting it back For me, at least, there is not even anything for that person to forgive, in that he did me no harm .

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Grandpa Greenman

I think this illustrates why not forgiving is harmful to oneself. ( if it is given that i accept this as a true expression of your feelings and intent. )

You mean wanting to shoot the b******d? I'm an american, guns are part of our culture and our lingo. :gun: And there is nothing more de-stressing than putting a few shotgun shells into a big pile of dirt. (Take that as you like.)

Have you even see an animal die from antifreeze poisoning? It is horrible suffering. The cat was has been just the tip if the iceberg with this guy. Usually when someone pushes me like he does, I just walk away and hope to never see them again. But I can't do that, so I tolerate his presents. He stays on his side of fence, I stay on mine. Just because he is there doesn't mean I have to like him. It isn't anything I spend my day seething about, I got other things to do. If it had been my service dog, then there may have been blood shed. I would consider that an attack on my person.

Edited by GreenmansGod
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Tatetopa

Great thread. I find I had a limited view of forgiveness. I still don't completely understand the nuances. Some great points.

People do change occasionally provided there is a significant emotional event in their lives to instigate change. One of my first teachers in the manufacturing world told me that people are creatures of habit. I have found over thirty years of working that this is true the greatest percentage of the time. Character, good or had has a way of resurfacing in all variety of circumstances. I guess when I think of forgiveness, it is for unconscious, accidental, or hasty actions that do not reflect a large character flaw but just the rough clanking of human rocks as we travel down the river of life and have our corners rounded off by the water of experience and wisdom. If a person's character is sound, then a few clinks here and there can be forgiven, especially when you know you can depend on them in a tough situation.

No matter what anyone does, I am not sure that they ever "deserve" forgiveness. It is a gift, not a right. A gift bonds a giver and a recipient. A right is granted by the impersonal state.

For most of society, I take Miguel Ruiz' advice from the Four Agreements: "Don't take anything personally."

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Sherapy

Great thread. I find I had a limited view of forgiveness. I still don't completely understand the nuances. Some great points.

People do change occasionally provided there is a significant emotional event in their lives to instigate change. One of my first teachers in the manufacturing world told me that people are creatures of habit. I have found over thirty years of working that this is true the greatest percentage of the time. Character, good or had has a way of resurfacing in all variety of circumstances. I guess when I think of forgiveness, it is for unconscious, accidental, or hasty actions that do not reflect a large character flaw but just the rough clanking of human rocks as we travel down the river of life and have our corners rounded off by the water of experience and wisdom. If a person's character is sound, then a few clinks here and there can be forgiven, especially when you know you can depend on them in a tough situation.

No matter what anyone does, I am not sure that they ever "deserve" forgiveness. It is a gift, not a right. A gift bonds a giver and a recipient. A right is granted by the impersonal state.

For most of society, I take Miguel Ruiz' advice from the Four Agreements: "Don't take anything personally."

Well said!

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Stubbly_Dooright

And there is nothing more de-stressing than putting a few shotgun shells into a big pile of dirt. (Take that as you like.)

I think that is a healthy way of working through it. I have my ways, and in the end, I'm calmer and I'm usually able to go through out my day, in peace. Frankly, GmG, it seems you know how to control it, even in the presence of the worst of them.

Frankly, forcing yourself to 'forgive' monsters like that, is not the wisest thing to do, in my boat.

Great thread. I find I had a limited view of forgiveness. I still don't completely understand the nuances. Some great points.

People do change occasionally provided there is a significant emotional event in their lives to instigate change. One of my first teachers in the manufacturing world told me that people are creatures of habit. I have found over thirty years of working that this is true the greatest percentage of the time. Character, good or had has a way of resurfacing in all variety of circumstances. I guess when I think of forgiveness, it is for unconscious, accidental, or hasty actions that do not reflect a large character flaw but just the rough clanking of human rocks as we travel down the river of life and have our corners rounded off by the water of experience and wisdom. If a person's character is sound, then a few clinks here and there can be forgiven, especially when you know you can depend on them in a tough situation.

I think you brought up something worth noting, I feel. Sometimes, there are things that do happen, and probably look at the human condition for that. I think you are talking about the little things, in which, is probably not so much of a concern. So, I think there is those little forgiveness that one does, because it's something that was caused by usual day to day things. I would think, yes, one can instantly 'forgive' because it's probably something that the wronged ( if it's little ) has probably done themselves in the past.

Yes, I would think, don't let the little things get to you, and forgiveness for them is probably best. Well, because they're little situations.

I wonder, could there be a spiritual and a secular way of day to day nuances and wronged situations, that have different perspectives of 'forgiveness' for them?

Kind of curious on that one. :)

No matter what anyone does, I am not sure that they ever "deserve" forgiveness. It is a gift, not a right. A gift bonds a giver and a recipient. A right is granted by the impersonal state.
This is very nice to read. I like that. Kind of close to what Hammer was talking about. And I would believe handing out gifts, should not be something that is easy to do. ;)
For most of society, I take Miguel Ruiz' advice from the Four Agreements: "Don't take anything personally."

I'm gonna need to read that book. Still a seller and asked for all of these years.
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Hammerclaw

That's the interesting thing though. No matter how much you forgive someone, there is always a seed of doubt growing in the back of your mind. You'll find yourself forever cautious.

That is a good thing. Fool me once; shame on you. Fool me twice; shame on me. Just because you forgive someone doesn't mean you have to trust them. They have to earn that back, too. It is the most wonderful feeling when someone who once failed you comes through for you.
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Sherapy

That is a good thing. Fool me once; shame on you. Fool me twice; shame on me. Just because you forgive someone doesn't mean you have to trust them. They have to earn that back, too. It is the most wonderful feeling when someone who once failed you comes through for you.

OMG, yes, yes, yes, and this happens too.

I have had two of these wonderful surprises in my lifetime that I can say I had no hope for change and had resolved myself to this reality, and bam they proved me wrong and it was wonderful being wrong.

It doesn't happen enough though. :/

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back to earth

I agree. I think this is something that the wrong doer needs to realize.

That gets me. Frankly, the wrong doer is in no position to lecture on how someone else forgives or deals with their pain in the wronged situation.

I would not be hesitant in saying that to that person.

I think you had the right outlook here, bte.

And did I thank you for this? :)

Now, this is an interesting bit for this thread. When you know what you get yourself into. In the end, you can't give forgiveness, because you kind of 'wanted it', if I'm getting that straight, bte?

I think this is something, that maybe some need to help deal with their pain, a bit of masochism there? ( again, if I'm getting that )

Sometimes, I wonder, do some need that, either before or after being wronged?

And that could be something for another thread as well. :cry::o ................... :devil:

Oh I dont know ... maybe I just eventually 'got over myself ' ..... errrm ... I'm not too clear on it myself at the moment ... I'm really hungry , I need to raid the cupboard .... which has no snacks in it :(

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Mr Walker

You mean wanting to shoot the b******d? I'm an american, guns are part of our culture and our lingo. :gun: And there is nothing more de-stressing than putting a few shotgun shells into a big pile of dirt. (Take that as you like.)

Have you even see an animal die from antifreeze poisoning? It is horrible suffering. The cat was has been just the tip if the iceberg with this guy. Usually when someone pushes me like he does, I just walk away and hope to never see them again. But I can't do that, so I tolerate his presents. He stays on his side of fence, I stay on mine. Just because he is there doesn't mean I have to like him. It isn't anything I spend my day seething about, I got other things to do. If it had been my service dog, then there may have been blood shed. I would consider that an attack on my person.

i think the guy should get a long prison sentence, and if he was in australia and was found guilty of this offence, he would do so. i' ve had to put down dogs and cats which were poisoned (and shot and hit by careless drivers. )

I sympathise with your feelings But if you honestly feel like shooting the guy this illustrates why you need to forgive. That degree of anger and desire for vengeance is harmful and destructive to you, even if you say you put the emotion to one side.. In the end it will hurt you, and the guy wont even know or care. .It sounds like you have trouble forgiving, if you cant forgive an attack on your person. That's normal because of the way most of us are brought up to think about things, but it doesn't mean it should be normal or that it is natural or healthy.

To me it is a part of the problem humans have with recognising the nature of human emotional responses and our refusal to learn better, more healthy and productive responses, than those we are taught from childhood. To twist the point. Why should i think that am so important that it is wrong for someone else to hurt me? Do i take care never to hurt or harm another? Do i think of their feelings and welll being all the time and put aside my needs or wants in order to not hurt them. . Why are my rights any more important than those of the person who wronged me Why should i get angry or hurt when another person does me harm? Indeed what IS harm and just how much harm has the person actually done me, and how much is in my perception beliefs or values.

While i would want justice and i would like an offer of restitution, an a admission of guilt, and an expression of regret there is probably nothing i could not forgive ie empty my heart/mind of all negative emotions, and go on as if it had not happened. Even when loved ones have been killed, i have forgiven those who caused the deaths, because this is the best thing for ME and it allows me to move on in a future free from hate, anger, frustration guilt or a desire for revenge. Not forgiving is a fruitless, pointless and non productive choice.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Grandpa Greenman

Oh my Gods and Goddesses, Walker, my forgiveness is a gift you have to earn. So far, he has fallen short of it. I am at peace and happy with myself. His karma is his problem not mine, he brings that all on himself. The more I see him whine the happier I am. I don't even seen him that much. He put up a big fence and I helped. :innocent: I get on fine with his son, he's a good kid with a kind heart, despite having an a**hole of a father. If I saw the guy clutch his chest and fall in his yard I would call 911, CPR, I guess that too, though, it would be pushing it. I am not, so sure his son would. Karma bites. :yes:

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Stubbly_Dooright

That is a good thing. Fool me once; shame on you. Fool me twice; shame on me. Just because you forgive someone doesn't mean you have to trust them. They have to earn that back, too. It is the most wonderful feeling when someone who once failed you comes through for you.

Yes, I agree with you. I think it is.

I think that is part of the healing, when you see someone honestly feels for you, being concerned for you. And that they go out of their way to help you. Probably not even thinking that they are making it up for you, but end up starting to anyways.

Someone I knew, who took way too much advantage of me, put me on the spot. The whole situation was a horrible even in my memory, and I'm still very numb for it. We kept a cordial relationship to a point, but I think she knew I was trying to break it off. She tried to make amends, ( purchasing something where I worked to try to make up for it) that only put me more on the spot, and me feeling uneasy about it. But, that was all she did. She was a nice and pretty much a caring person, but what she did was probably very unintelligent to do. She should have called the authorities. She expected too much from me, in which I couldn't do, more so because there were other things going on that took up my concentration at the time.

I do not even consider if I was wrong to cut it off with her. I feel, that I had to. There is a relief in doing so.

As opposed to another friend sometime later, in a marriage that was painful, and she never wanted me to be involved for my sake. The thing is, I wanted to help out and I went in ( and I think I taught the husband a thing a two about how to treat a person ) and I don't look back and regret on that. She was more of a person who went out for others, ( and I made sure I went out for her too. ) Even her mother got into the act and making sure I was appreciated for my actions.

I do reflect on both situations and on both friends. I wonder, at the same time of the kind of person I am with both, but consider the expectations of both of them with me. One expected me to behave a certain way, in which I couldn't, and the other didn't and actually worried about how to behave around me ( she was perfect, she didn't have to worry ) and in the end, those who actually care are the ones, you not only think, 'of course I forgive' but think, 'there is no reason so forgive, nothing wrong was done by them'

Now, here's the thing, the first friend, very very religious. Definitely lived her life in a religious way, ( it kind of spilled out into me, which got me uncomfortable with me ) I may have felt an expectation to forgive, because that is what you are suppose to do in her eyes. It didn't work out that way.

The second friend did come from a religious environment, but there really wasn't any expectations, and she looked at life outside of it and in a secular way. I think she thought she can't make up for how I was involved in her life. Despite that being a positive attitude toward hoping for forgiveness, she never had to worry about that, the way I saw it. She was the type of person who one cared about no matter what. I think, with my help, I felt it was the least I could do. I think she may have felt she couldn't forgive herself. I made it an extreme effort to make sure, she was more than a person who was in the position to need forgiving. That she was a person, who did more good than bad. She certainly has gone to bat for me on more than one occasion. ( I like to point out, she did end up in a happier situation, in which I am so happy for her and relieved she is happy :) :)

So, I'm thinking. ................................. ( coming from your point here Hammer :yes: ) yes, one needs to work at healing yourself if you are the wronged, but should not have to follow some expectations of how to, by others who lecture and think they should be forgiven just like that. The first friend should see, by the end of the situation, that it does not work out like that.

If anything, when you have something like a person constantly concerned for others, and work at it, you are a humble and caring person to begin with, and forgiveness will always be there, if indeed it's something to be labeled as such, because the situation never ended up like that.

Oh I dont know ... maybe I just eventually 'got over myself ' ..... errrm ... I'm not too clear on it myself at the moment ... I'm really hungry , I need to raid the cupboard .... which has no snacks in it :(

What!?!? That's unforgivable!!!!! Beat that cupboard!!!!! How dare it!!!!

;) *looks sheepish*

I wonder though on that thought, 'getting over myself'.

It's something to reflect, mostly so when dealing with situations with others. Is that something to consider when dealing with forgiveness?

I know, this was probably just something you weren't really depending too highly as a communicative point, but I like it.

And go eat, go out and raid a drive thru.

(that didn't come out too well :o )

Oh my Gods and Goddesses, Walker, my forgiveness is a gift you have to earn. So far, he has fallen short of it. I am at peace and happy with myself. His karma is his problem not mine, he brings that all on himself. The more I see him whine the happier I am. I don't even seen him that much. He put up a big fence and I helped. :innocent: I get on fine with his son, he's a good kid with a kind heart, despite having an a**hole of a father. If I saw the guy clutch his chest and fall in his yard I would call 911, CPR, I guess that too, though, it would be pushing it. I am not, so sure his son would. Karma bites. :yes:

BINGO!!!!! Well put, GmG :tu:

I agree with you. I don't see how you can get rid of your anger, by just 'instant forgiving'. To me, that's like wrong, somehow. Mostly so, on that a**hole. A a**hole needs to live through the repercussions of his actions. 'Instant forgiveness' does not do that. It seems like message that you can still do that to me.

And you cannot get rid of the negative feelings under a fake label. You work at it on your own, like I think you do. It sounds like, you are definitely the better person here.

I feel bad for the son to have such a father. :o

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Xeno-Fish

I also use conditional forgiveness on special occasions. Meaning I'll forgive them after my conditions are met. Really depends on the situation though.

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Stubbly_Dooright

I also use conditional forgiveness on special occasions. Meaning I'll forgive them after my conditions are met. Really depends on the situation though.

Something, I do believe, is something that I adhere to as well. :yes:

Edit: A 'something' redundancy!!! Egads Stubbs, get a grip!!!! :no:

Ah well, had my coffee, so it's all good. :tu:

Edited by TheMustardLady
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quiXilver

My experience with forgiveness is that it has nothing to do with absolution for the transgressor, nor forgetting the transgression, nor acceptance of it.

It has, in the end, nothing much to do with the person being forgiven at all... it has everything to do with who I am, how I live my life and what I intend to do with the energy of my life and in that, I no longer make room for harboring resentment, or holding coals of bitterness in the hopes that these repetitious thoughts will somehow transmit some glorified personal ideal of burning karmic retribution to the one who has wronged me.

Forgiveness, to me, is about releasing myself from anger, resentment and the host of other cyclical self abusive thought forms that have no value, no healing and serve only to make my life a living hell while I perpetuate them.

Edited by quiXilver
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Stubbly_Dooright

My experience with forgiveness is that it has nothing to do with absolution for the transgressor, nor forgetting the transgression, nor acceptance of it.

It has, in the end, nothing much to do with the person being forgiven at all... it has everything to do with who I am, how I live my life and what I intend to do with the energy of my life and in that, I no longer make room for harboring resentment, or holding coals of bitterness in the hopes that these repetitious thoughts will somehow transmit some glorified personal ideal of burning karmic retribution to the one who has wronged me.

Forgiveness, to me, is about releasing myself from anger, resentment and the host of other cyclical self abusive thought forms that have no value, no healing and serve only to make my life a living hell while I perpetuate them.

Thank you for replying back. :yes:

I see, and I find this very educational. You see, for me, ( and I wonder if others here thought the same thing as well ) but I always thought that forgiveness was like instant wipe of the slate and go back reset your point of view to before. ( kind of like resetting your computer to an earlier time, before certain added events. )

But here's the thing, from what you wrote here, seems to be the opposite to what I have found certain others say it is. Complete wipe of feelings and point of views of the wrong doer.

I can tell you, that I have come to get rid of anger.............. most of the time. I wonder though, do you feel that it is completely gone?

Do you feel it bubbling up from time to time?

When that happens to me, I face it and deal with it in a healthy, harmless manner. I find that a secular way of doing that. And then, I have faith in my belief to ease the pain ( long story on how it's done, but it does the job for me :yes: )

I think, pain and it's emotions, are not completely wiped away, like some think it is when they 'forgive'. If they are, I don't think they thought they forgave or not, they just acknowledged what they need to do for themselves. I feel, pretty much helping themselves heal, with no help or thought toward who caused it.

Is forgiveness actually releasing the anger, or pushing it away? To me, it seems it's like capping it, and then going to another valve of emotion. Kind of a mislabeled identity. My take on that, mind you.

I am still trying to get an understanding how forgiveness takes care of or releases the anger, when it's just telling you you feel differently about someone, when you probably don't. Where is the description of how it's done?

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Mr Walker

Oh my Gods and Goddesses, Walker, my forgiveness is a gift you have to earn. So far, he has fallen short of it. I am at peace and happy with myself. His karma is his problem not mine, he brings that all on himself. The more I see him whine the happier I am. I don't even seen him that much. He put up a big fence and I helped. :innocent: I get on fine with his son, he's a good kid with a kind heart, despite having an a**hole of a father. If I saw the guy clutch his chest and fall in his yard I would call 911, CPR, I guess that too, though, it would be pushing it. I am not, so sure his son would. Karma bites. :yes:

You don't see the innate contradiction in your very words?

my forgiveness is a gift you have to earn.

In which case, it is not a gift at all.

And that is my point.

The hurt person gives forgiveness freely, and without conditions, but not to benefit the wrongdoer, rather to benefit themselves.

However, you actually seem, in reality, to be part way to forgiveness, and if you genuinely are not hurting, or angry, or upset, then you are not being harmed.

If, however you retain even small amounts of those feelings, your body and mind are being unnecessarily stressed, and it will have a negative impact on your health and well being .

I accept your word that you are fine . There isn't anything else i can do . The fact that you would call 911, and consider administering CPR, speaks volumes to me about your true nature.

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Stubbly_Dooright

I thought I would do some web searching here. ( to be honest, I binged, not googled. ;) Have to be close to well rounded, :D )

Anyways, I found this site:

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/topic/forgiveness/definition

I'm going to consider this more of a secular site, and it seems to have the usual way of the acts of how you forgive and it's good for you.

One thing, I am finding again, is what it's kind of instantly suppose to do for you when you forgive, but I'm not seeing any examples of results. So, to me, how am I suppose to know this works. Deep in my heart, there maybe some points I can see as understandable, but I don't think it works just like it's saying.

There does seem to be the thing about not forgetting, that a lot of posters in this thread that have importantly have pointed out.

IN which, I understand, forgiveness is not about forgetting. I do understand that. I even think forgetting the negative time in your life is wrong, it's essential for a person and their growth as much as the positive times.

But, I really do not see how you are helping yourself, by letting the wrong doer off the hook.

In fact, I have found immensely, even by telling some, or keeping it to myself, that I am firmed in not letting them off the hook, not letting them have an excuse for their behaviors, and telling them what kind of person they are for doing what they did, ( or telling myself in my head ) seems more freeing than ever.

I'm still not lashing out. I'm not reacting. ( actually for to not do that, it's because I have understood how I feel honestly, and so my body doesn't automatically react, it's already understands feelings know why they are there)

I wish this site had examples, or a comment section.

Here's the thing, there seems to be a big thing about letting go resentment and anger. Believe it or not, I'm all for that. I think my belief does that for me. I think it told me not to forgive ( let them off the hook ) and yet feel at peace. I think it considered it a label with a solved solution, so I can be at peace.

So, the question is, should the lack of forgiveness mean you have bitterness and resentment? I don't think so, because I think that comes, when you told yourself, you forgive them ( in a sense, let them off the hook ) without dealing with your feelings from the pain they had afflicted on to you. Once you realize you still hold them accountable, you can just know, from that day onward, how the relationship is and what you know needs to be done, if the relationship to be, ( if the wrong doer desires it ) if to 'repair' it.

When I have come to the conclusion, I don't forgive, I have actually felt peace and was healing, because I work at it myself ( not depending on them to do so (( and feeling freerer because of it)) and the bitterness and resentment goes away. Yes, the relationship is hurt, but life has it's ups and downs in everything. Just because it looks good in one standpoint of lecturing, doesn't mean it will.

I think, once you identify you cannot forgive, I think you can actually move beyond that, lose the anger and resentment, ( because you don't have to worry about it coming back up because you tried to ignore it ) and go on concentrating on other things.

But, this is how I see it and the positive responses from my life. Some may not agree ( understandably ) or believe it for me ( yes, but I'm saying it that's what happened ) but that is why I started this thread.

Considering I think forgiveness is not an instant thing, and there are many philosophicle and spiritual ways of looking at it and living it, I would love to see examples of them.

I still love most all of the responses here! :tu:

Then I found this page within the BING search engine and lo and behold! http://www.elderwisdom.com/ElderWisdom.com/Forgiveness.html

NOTHING THERE!!!!!!???

I can't forgive them for that!!! <_< grrrrrrr!

Just kidding folks. :D:P A little comic relief.

I totally believe in that. I so believe in the phrasse, 'laughter: the best medicine' (reader's digest anyone?!?! )

Weeeellllllll, not totally, you need to get drugged up or go to the hospital, do it! I'm not that crazy!

Still searching, I came across this Bhuddah site: http://tinybuddha.com/blog/why-forgiveness-doesnt-work-and-how-to-change-that/

And I read this paragraph:

When I was younger and in my first marriage, my wife and I ran the typical “I’m sorry” process. We’d bicker and fight until one or the other of us would say, “I’m sorry.” Then the other of us would say, “I’m sorry, too”—and we really, really meant it!

But within 10 days or 10 hours (or sometimes 10 minutes), we’d be back at it.

What’s up with that? Our apologies were heartfelt. Neither of us enjoyed fighting. Yet…

Now, I find this interesting, because I think it goes deeper into not just the feelings, but what one can do, both parties. ( in which I find important )

You’re kidding me, right? I’m supposed to stream love energy to the person who has just wronged me?!? Yep. Part of the ho`oponopono process is to open your heart, acknowledge that the other is doing the best that he or she can at the moment, and offer love and compassion.

The only thing is, what about the times, you honestly do not have that kind of feeling for the other. I would think one needs to acknowledge this.

This site actually had comments, and I noticed the first one said, despite reading the site with an open mind, it didn't work. She made some good points, what if the other was irrational?

Then the comment that replied to her, I find interesting.

Forgive yourself for tolerating it to the point that you did.

Forgiving yourself for tolerating it. Hummmmm :hmm:

One part of me considers that interesting, the other..........

Well, when does one have to forgive themselves for taking the pain?

The following comment by a DR. James says this:

The reason a lot of people have trouble with forgiveness is because they feel that holding onto the black bags is protecting themselves in some way (physically, emotionally or otherwise). And while it can feel like protection… holding onto the black bags does not protect us. It only hinders us. When you’re ready, learning from the events that caused the black bags in the first place will be what will allow you to forgive. In other words, taking action that’s different from whatever it is that put you in your current situation is what will protect you. The negative emotions do not. Make sense?
I think that's what I'm talking about. I think this is a good point. :yes:

So, hence, a couple of examples from both a secular site and a spiritual site.

I find it interesting of the results I got there. :)

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Cookie Monster

As I have said in another thread, I think in Sheri's 'Christianity without God' thread, I have been lately contemplating starting a thread on forgiveness and the religious and secular way of looking at it, and if there are good and bad examples of it working or not with both.

Forgiveness: from this site: http://www.newworlde...try/Forgiveness

I am mystified at the various ways of the emotional act of forgiveness, and some, who somehow 'demand' it from others, and then assure that it's the best thing to do for you even though in the end it may play out that it's not.

Life is about systems thinking. To avoid encountering any problems you have to relate to the things in your environment properly. The only way you can achieve such a balance is by adapting your patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving to allow you to relate to those external things properly.

When it comes to dealing with toxic people you have to start by noticing what negative patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving they create in you. Then reflect on how these make you react. You'll discover your own bruised ego is at the centre of how you respond to them. It makes you react by standing up for yourself, arguing with them, raging at them, even hitting them if they wind you up quite badly.

The thing to realise about toxic people is they're all attention seekers. They are experts in pressing peoples buttons in such a way that their ego's force them to react. And despite what you might think every single one of them is fully aware of the game that they're playing. They press your buttons, your ego makes you react, and hey presto you're providing the attention seeker with their favourite drug (attention). Once you've provided this junkie with what they're after they will come again and again for their repeat fix.

You deal with toxic people by totally ignoring them. This means having identified the negative patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving they cause in you along with how this bruises your ego you override your urge to want to react to them. Ignore them instead. Do not engage with them in any way shape or form. Forgiveness is about you not the toxic people. By working yourself into the frame of mind where you forgive them it helps you override your urge to want to react to them.

After ignoring people like that for about 3 months you'll discover they no longer have the same effect on you. Ignoring them has become easy.

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