Germany: There is NO place for Islam

[+and-then]

I can't imagine feelings towards Islam are going to improve in Germany today:

Germany knife attacker kills man in Grafing

When the government ignores the legitimate concerns of the people long enough, there will come a backlash of extreme political parties and violence. There is no mystery here for anyone except the political whores who do not have to live in the conditions they create for everyone else.

[questionmark]

I can't imagine feelings towards Islam are going to improve in Germany today:

Germany knife attacker kills man in Grafing

Wherein, that guy is a German who was in psychiatric treatment until yesterday:

Bavaria's interior minister, Joachim Herrmann, said the suspect had recently been stopped by police in another part of Germany because of his behavior and on suspicion of drug use.

"So far there are no findings that are relevant to state security about this person," he told reporters, adding that the suspect did not appear in any database of Islamists or ISIS sympathizers.

Prosecutor Ken Heidenreich told a news conference that the suspect's statements were inconsistent and that they are doubtful as to whether he can be held criminally responsible.

Read more

But hey...lets just blame everything on Islam, maybe people will get crazy and start a new

[Phaeton80]

I can't imagine feelings towards Islam are going to improve in Germany today:

Germany knife attacker kills man in Grafing

Yes LV-426, yet again Islam is the real problem here.. not the fact we're dealing with an individual with psychological issues, drug addict to boot. Typical. Only the emotionally laden, irrational onlooker would judge Islam based on the actions of this extremely unstable individual.

[RavenHawk]

Yes LV-426, yet again Islam is the real problem here.. not the fact we're dealing with an individual with psychological issues, drug addict to boot. Typical. Only the emotionally laden, irrational onlooker would judge Islam based on the actions of this extremely unstable individual.

The actions of the machinery goes bad because the programing is bad. If this guy was just as fanatic a follower of Christ, he’d be Bible thumping or at least wearing a sign saying “the end is near” and perhaps being obnoxious but usually not violent. The guy is only following the programming of the doctrine. If he was following church dogma, then I can see where he could possibly become violent. The Christian Church has undoubtedly drifted further from the core message of Christ than the followers of Mohammed have wandered from his message. But if we base this on core values, it’s no wonder he became violent.

[LV-426]

Wherein, that guy is a German who was in psychiatric treatment until yesterday:

Yes LV-426, yet again Islam is the real problem here.. not the fact we're dealing with an individual with psychological issues, drug addict to boot. Typical. Only the emotionally laden, irrational onlooker would judge Islam based on the actions of this extremely unstable individual.

There was no mention of "psychological and drug problems" in the original link. The article has been updated.

Islam IS the problem though, and it will continue to be so until Islam itself takes a position of reformation rather than an insulated defense of its doctrines.

I'm honestly tired of this "Islam is a religion of peace" instant reply to any form of criticism. Anyone with half a brain will acknowledge that Muslims are as many and varied as any other religion in the world, and many are peaceful people just going about their daily lives. I don't go to an opthalmic appointment at my local hospital fearing that the Muslim consultant will take my eye out for being an infidel...

All this animosity and fear which seems to grow daily around the globe though isn't exclusively related to the extremes of terrorism. Take a look around Britain today for example, and you'll see on the one hand you have a shift towards secular society as Christianity declines - that's fine with me as I'm not religious - and you'll see other religions such as Hinduism and Sikhism that have found ways to either integrate into British culture, or at least not put themselves at direct odds with British society and laws.

Now take a look at Islam, whether its the brutal treatment of people such as Raif Badawi in backward nations such as Saudi Arabia, or groups campaigning for Sharia law on the streets of Western countries, it always seems to be Islam that takes centre stage. There's no point posting a long list of evidence. There are already plenty of posts and videos here on UM that highlight the issues.

Now... I can already hear the defence "Islam isn't the only religion that has a fundamentalist element." Absolutely true. It is however the religion with the most prominent fundamentalist element, and it is the religion that seems to find it hardest to get along with its neighbours, including factions within Islam itself.

Here's the bottom line; Islamophobia - for want of a better term - will continue to grow, and likely end in disater for all of us, until Islam stops instantly going on the defensive at criticism, and starts to accept and address the elements within that aren't acceptable in the twenty-first century.

I'm certainly not "emotionally laden or irrational." I'm about as easy-going as a person can be, but I have a pair of eyes. They see problems in local towns and cities in the Northwest of England that led to riots fifteen years ago, and reportedly haven't improved. They also see the bigger issues around the world.

Something will change. I just hope it's for the better, rather than the worse.

[questionmark]

There was no mention of "psychological and drug problems" in the original link. The article has been updated.

Quite, quite. Four hours before you posted the link.

[LV-426]

Quite, quite. Four hours before you posted the link.

Or not...

The headline on the article I linked this morning was exactly as posted. Any links I post from news sites, I simply copy the headline:

Germany knife attacker kills man in Grafing

It now reads:

Germany knife attacker 'had psychological and drug problems'

The BBC site regularly does this with articles it posts.

Please continue to believe otherwise though if it makes you feel superior.

[questionmark]

Or not...

The headline on the article I linked this morning was exactly as posted. Any links I post from news sites, I simply copy the headline:

Germany knife attacker kills man in Grafing

It now reads:

Germany knife attacker 'had psychological and drug problems'

The BBC site regularly does this with articles it posts.

Please continue to believe otherwise though if it makes you feel superior.

Well, that was announced in Germany at 1:30 local time (which would be 5:30 EST) and been on the news ticker since 2:00 local time. If the news source you use did not have it updated by 3:00 local time you might be better off getting your news somewhere else.

[ellapenella]

People often forget about history.

Vlad Tepes impaled Turks to keep Islam outta of Europa.

John III Sobieski headed a winged lancer charge against Islam under the smile of the Black Madonna.

The crusader ate Muslims in the Holy Land.

https://en.wikipedia...lad_the_Impaler

https://en.wikipedia...attle_of_Vienna

https://en.wikipedia..._of_Ma'arra

yes they have forgotten, remember India?

[XenoFish]

And these crazed individuals, fringe groups, should be hunted down with extreme prejudice.

I will agree that they should be hunted down. However they had to get their ideas from a source. Religions are a tool for manipulating people. Anyone can use any religion to cause havoc. Islam just happens to be one of the easier one's. I think religion should be kept out of all government offices and shouldn't be a deciding factor in any election. Keep your faith to yourself. Not everyone care's what you want to believe in.

Edited May 11, 2016 by XenoFish

[LV-426]

Well, that was announced in Germany at 1:30 local time (which would be 5:30 EST) and been on the news ticker since 2:00 local time. If the news source you use did not have it updated by 3:00 local time you might be better off getting your news somewhere else.

It had 38 minutes on the clock when I linked it as far as I can remember. The BBC may not be the sharpest news agency on the block, but it certainly isn't the worst.

I'll be sure to call multiple news agencies in Germany to check and countercheck that the suspect hasn't already had a psychological profile next time though, so as to meet your exacting standards.

[+and-then]

There was no mention of "psychological and drug problems" in the original link. The article has been updated.

Islam IS the problem though, and it will continue to be so until Islam itself takes a position of reformation rather than an insulated defense of its doctrines.

I'm honestly tired of this "Islam is a religion of peace" instant reply to any form of criticism. Anyone with half a brain will acknowledge that Muslims are as many and varied as any other religion in the world, and many are peaceful people just going about their daily lives. I don't go to an opthalmic appointment at my local hospital fearing that the Muslim consultant will take my eye out for being an infidel...

All this animosity and fear which seems to grow daily around the globe though isn't exclusively related to the extremes of terrorism. Take a look around Britain today for example, and you'll see on the one hand you have a shift towards secular society as Christianity declines - that's fine with me as I'm not religious - and you'll see other religions such as Hinduism and Sikhism that have found ways to either integrate into British culture, or at least not put themselves at direct odds with British society and laws.

Now take a look at Islam, whether its the brutal treatment of people such as Raif Badawi in backward nations such as Saudi Arabia, or groups campaigning for Sharia law on the streets of Western countries, it always seems to be Islam that takes centre stage. There's no point posting a long list of evidence. There are already plenty of posts and videos here on UM that highlight the issues.

Now... I can already hear the defence "Islam isn't the only religion that has a fundamentalist element." Absolutely true. It is however the religion with the most prominent fundamentalist element, and it is the religion that seems to find it hardest to get along with its neighbours, including factions within Islam itself.

Here's the bottom line; Islamophobia - for want of a better term - will continue to grow, and likely end in disater for all of us, until Islam stops instantly going on the defensive at criticism, and starts to accept and address the elements within that aren't acceptable in the twenty-first century.

I'm certainly not "emotionally laden or irrational." I'm about as easy-going as a person can be, but I have a pair of eyes. They see problems in local towns and cities in the Northwest of England that led to riots fifteen years ago, and reportedly haven't improved. They also see the bigger issues around the world.

Something will change. I just hope it's for the better, rather than the worse.

Thank you for a calm, cogent and concise explanation of your point - and of the problem we face. You will see only a continuation of past rhetoric from those who feel the need to defend Islam - WITH NO CHANGE WHATEVER - against those who attack it for it's abusive followers. For them there can be no agreement with non Muslims on anything in the slightest bit negative about the religion. This is exactly what makes these doctrines impervious to change. They trade in fear, anger and denial. Yes, it WILL end badly for all of us.

[Phaeton80]

Now take a look at Islam, whether its the brutal treatment of people such as Raif Badawi in backward nations such as Saudi Arabia, or groups campaigning for Sharia law on the streets of Western countries, it always seems to be Islam that takes centre stage. There's no point posting a long list of evidence. There are already plenty of posts and videos here on UM that highlight the issues.

A backwad nation with whom your government has the closest political ties in that region, one of the main arms sales clients. The fact you suppose the acts of this 21st century political entity, or those fringe crazies roaming the Western streets claiming to be Sharia enforcers (curiously not drawing the attention of law enforcement) indicates anything at all about Islam.. says it all really.

If you want to act against the present day Islamic extremist trend - hailing from Wahhabism - you might want to adress the source (ideological and financial), being your close allie SA. Its so very easy to just blame Islam as a whole for this mess, but in almost every instance (like, say, ISIS), we ourselves have a considerable part to play. We have consciously armed and funded a rowdy disorganised bunch of 'moderate' mercenaries in our most recent Samaritan effort to rid the locals of another tirant; Assad, indirectly breathing life into ISIS (Wahhabi), in turn creating the refugee crisis we all so love to lament. All these 'Christians' falling over themselves to claim most of these people are 'criminals', therefor wanting all rafts barred from entering 'their nation'. To subsequently have the nerve to point your finger to Islam as the main source of all this trouble, evil.. more or less completely ignore your own (government's) part in all these events. The shallow minded egotism, black & white simplistic 'reasoning' - bred by ignorance and irrational fear - resulting in blatant discrimination, racism, bigotism.. is absolutely disgusting. I dont think I need to remind anyone the very same pattern was present in Germany around ~1938.

Completely ignoring the fact SA is the closest allie of GB/USA in the ME, but blaming Islam for all its crimes / inhumane behaviour. Brilliant.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Phaeton80

[aztek]

You quoted "Meanwhile 60 per cent of voters said "there is no place for Islam" in German politics." Is there a place for Sikhism, Buddhism, Scientology in politics?

I'm not arguing against you Seeder, just against the 60% in the poll.

is there an evidence, even anecdotal, that those exist in german politics? or at least try to get into it?

Edited May 12, 2016 by aztek

[Avanter]

The Crusader failed the battle in Jerusalem, but we won in Spain. The Spain reconquest was a crusade.

In the decisive battle of Navas de Tolosa, about year 12000 ( sorry if im not very accurate), cristians soldiers from sapin, france, germany ... Won to the islamic hordes.

We did again in Lepanto, where the turkis were copletely defeat by the Spanish fleet and our marines. Yes we had the first Marines of the world. The Tercios. That won for more than 200 years all the battles against the muslims, french, british, swedden, dutch, germanincas, aztecas, ... Armies.

We sent outside Spain to all muslims, and it allowed a paceful nation that conquered thw widest empire of the history: big part of Europe, spain, america, philippines, ....several islands in the Pacific, etc.

[Likely Guy]

is there an evidence, even anecdotal, that those exist in german politics? or at least try to get into it?

Boy, did you miss the bus.

Does Germany allow any religion into it's constitution? You're asking the same damn thing I was. It was rhetorical.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Likely Guy

[Likely Guy]

The Crusader failed the battle in Jerusalem, but we won in Spain. The Spain reconquest was a crusade.

In the decisive battle of Navas de Tolosa, about year 12000 ( sorry if im not very accurate), cristians soldiers from sapin, france, germany ... Won to the islamic hordes.

We did again in Lepanto, where the turkis were copletely defeat by the Spanish fleet and our marines. Yes we had the first Marines of the world. The Tercios. That won for more than 200 years all the battles against the muslims, french, british, swedden, dutch, germanincas, aztecas, ... Armies.

We sent outside Spain to all muslims, and it allowed a paceful nation that conquered thw widest empire of the history: big part of Europe, spain, america, philippines, ....several islands in the Pacific, etc.

While I'd love to sit around and discuss past glories from almost 1000 years ago, NO!

Stop basking in your stagnant colonial past and do something. Maybe read current history.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Likely Guy

[bmk1245]

While I'd love to sit around and discuss past glories from almost 1000 years ago, NO!

Stop basking in your stagnant colonial past and do something. Maybe read current history.

Lets do dat... (reposting, since original text unavailable for now):

[...]

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness

[...]

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs

[...]

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves - along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

[...]

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).

[...]

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning

[...]

[Duke Wellington]

'There is NO place for Islam in our politics' Shock poll highlights Germany's discontent

Some will no doubt try to paint a picture where those opposed to mass Islamic migration into Germany are racists.

But there is a very real problem going on with terrorist attacks, sexual assaults on women and ISIS determined to establish a world-wide caliphate using violence. So if there is a legitimate problem, and that problem is behind someone being against Islamic immigration, then they aren't a racist. In fact they have a perfectly valid point.

[Phaeton80]

Some will no doubt try to paint a picture where those opposed to mass Islamic migration into Germany are racists.

But there is a very real problem going on with terrorist attacks, sexual assaults on women and ISIS determined to establish a world-wide caliphate using violence. So if there is a legitimate problem, and that problem is behind someone being against Islamic immigration, then they aren't a racist. In fact they have a perfectly valid point.

Indeed, and all these real issues you mention hail from... Islam! Not culture, not extremism funded and armed by.. well.. us (in our regional political chessgame - Mujahideen > Taliban / AQ, Free Syrian Army > ISIS). Instead of acting against extremist, hypocrit nations like Saudi Arabia - which is the ideological and financial heimat of Wahhabism, ISIS' school of thought - we simply blame a world religion! Yeah, because.. everybody around me is doing it; why make it unnecessarily complex by considering our own role in all this nonsense.. Thats how we roll, how we sleep at night, can continue to claim cultural highground. Its all them and their backward culture! The problem isnt refugee immigration from a warstricken ME where our good Samaritan Western Allience has been ridding the locals of their terrible tirants in consecutive order, consisting of mixed religions and cultures.. No no, its an 'Islamic immigration', secretly trying to inject the West with Muslim hordes in their shrewd plan to take over Europe.. How ungrateful, after we in the West took so much effort to partition their lands as to safeguard peace and prosperity after WWI! The fact these people are still governed by aristocratic tirants has nothing to do with us, but simply follows from their backward culture and religion.

If you want to end ISIS, follow the moneytrails into your political allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and UAE and persecute all who are involved, rout them out. Kill the hands that feed them. Only then will you have a real chance of turning things around. Your nation wont do that though, and you wont call for it. Why? Because its so very easy to just blame Islam.

Look, there certainly are some real, serious issues. But they are mainly sociological, cultural and political in nature. The extremist few that commit crimes under the banner of Islam are the absolute margin, often facilitated by our own misguided strategical foreign policy.

[+and-then]

The Crusader failed the battle in Jerusalem, but we won in Spain. The Spain reconquest was a crusade.

In the decisive battle of Navas de Tolosa, about year 12000 ( sorry if im not very accurate), cristians soldiers from sapin, france, germany ... Won to the islamic hordes.

We did again in Lepanto, where the turkis were copletely defeat by the Spanish fleet and our marines. Yes we had the first Marines of the world. The Tercios. That won for more than 200 years all the battles against the muslims, french, british, swedden, dutch, germanincas, aztecas, ... Armies.

We sent outside Spain to all muslims, and it allowed a paceful nation that conquered thw widest empire of the history: big part of Europe, spain, america, philippines, ....several islands in the Pacific, etc.

That's wonderful to know. I seem to recall your government running from the fight like a whipped cur after the Madrid train bombings. No doubt it may not have represented all Spaniards but the action gave the same impression of your country. The French, Germans, Spanish, most of the Scandinavian countries and even GB are losing to this tide. But hey! It's not ALL Muslims, so, no worries.

[+and-then]

Indeed, and all these real issues you mention hail from... Islam! Not culture, not extremism funded and armed by.. well.. us (in our regional political chessgame - Mujahideen > Taliban / AQ, Free Syrian Army > ISIS). Instead of acting against extremist, hypocrit nations like Saudi Arabia - which is the ideological and financial heimat of Wahhabism, ISIS' school of thought - we simply blame a world religion! Yeah, because.. everybody around me is doing it; why make it unnecessarily complex by considering our own role in all this nonsense.. Thats how we roll, how we sleep at night, can continue to claim cultural highground. Its all them and their backward culture! The problem isnt refugee immigration from a warstricken ME where our good Samaritan Western Allience has been ridding the locals of their terrible tirants in consecutive order, consisting of mixed religions and cultures.. No no, its an 'Islamic immigration', secretly trying to inject the West with Muslim hordes in their shrewd plan to take over Europe.. How ungrateful, after we in the West took so much effort to partition their lands as to safeguard peace and prosperity after WWI! The fact these people are still governed by aristocratic tirants has nothing to do with us, but simply follows from their backward culture and religion.

If you want to end ISIS, follow the moneytrails into your political allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and UAE and persecute all who are involved, rout them out. Kill the hands that feed them. Only then will you have a real chance of turning things around. Your nation wont do that though, and you wont call for it. Why? Because its so very easy to just blame Islam.

Look, there certainly are some real, serious issues. But they are mainly sociological, cultural and political in nature. The extremist few that commit crimes under the banner of Islam are the absolute margin, often facilitated by our own misguided strategical foreign policy.

No, our nation won't do that, yet. And I agree that a large part of the problem is our business with these countries due to the oil. But if the US presented the evidence to the world, then proceeded to attack these countries on every level, ending with the military if necessary, your premise that it would be the death of radicalism is wrong and I think you know that full well. All it would accomplish is the rise of Shia Islam under Iran's banner. In fact it might well cause a nuclear conflict first because the Sauds probably already have access to nukes. You can make all the excuses for the religion that you like and it does not remove a single incident where the atrocity was accompanied by a quote from the Qur'an. There is no other religion on the planet today that has less desire to coexist than Islam, NONE. It is apparent in every place it takes root. The EU countries will probably fall into Fascism at some point because of allowing this influx. The indigenous people will eventually resist. So by all means, keep blaming the victims and telling them why they deserve it. That song is growing old though and a new tune may be warming up soon.

[Phaeton80]

No, our nation won't do that, yet. And I agree that a large part of the problem is our business with these countries due to the oil. But if the US presented the evidence to the world, then proceeded to attack these countries on every level, ending with the military if necessary, your premise that it would be the death of radicalism is wrong and I think you know that full well. All it would accomplish is the rise of Shia Islam under Iran's banner. In fact it might well cause a nuclear conflict first because the Sauds probably already have access to nukes. You can make all the excuses for the religion that you like and it does not remove a single incident where the atrocity was accompanied by a quote from the Qur'an. There is no other religion on the planet today that has less desire to coexist than Islam, NONE. It is apparent in every place it takes root. The EU countries will probably fall into Fascism at some point because of allowing this influx. The indigenous people will eventually resist. So by all means, keep blaming the victims and telling them why they deserve it. That song is growing old though and a new tune may be warming up soon.

So, your logic is to not engage the source of this anti Islamic BS (yes, these extremist fools are per very definition anti Islamic) because... wait for it.. 'another group would inadvertantly take its place'.

Dude..

Edit: wanna take a trip throughout history and lavish in the rich body of instances where atrocities were committed accompanied by a quote from the Bible? Come the f on.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Phaeton80

[aztek]

Boy, did you miss the bus.

Does Germany allow any religion into it's constitution? You're asking the same damn thing I was. It was rhetorical.

so is it yes or no?