Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
MERRY DMAS

The Holy Dopamine Ghost; It Feels Good

763 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Habitat

I've never ever experienced any elation at all from the HDG, what am I doing wrong ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eight bits

davros

Congratulations on getting enough likes elsewhere to sally forth with this thread.

The problem with the theory in a nutshell is that learning cognition with a chemsitry set is like learning computer science with a voltmeter. That brains and computers are physical realizations of something is interesting. Knowing what they are realizations of is critical. We don't.

We have inklings. There definitely is a heuristic that we warm bloodeds embrace: if something you did felt good, then do that again. Often, doing it won't feel as good the second and subsequent times, but it will feel better than not doing it. Close enough to a reason to keep doing it.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I react strongly to meeting other animals in the woods. You really have to meet a moose (called an elk in some places outside North America) unexpectedly to appreciate the qualia of the experience. Maybe your reaction wouldn't be anything like mine, though.

From my reactions, you can infer nothing about the moose. The other side of that coin is that from my reactions, I can infer nothing about the moose, either. So, I need to be careful not to read more into an experience, any experience, than is really there.

It follows that it is a lucky break that I have good reasons for thinking that the moose was really there apart from my emotional reactions to him. By their lack of nature, gods, spirits, fairies, jinn and other such will not furnish such good reasons.

On the assumption that the unnatural being wasn't there, you can explain the experience entirely from chemical primitives (a variant of what is called "the brain in the vat" problem). The hitch is, why on earth would a believer in jinn grant your premise any more readily than I, a believer in moose, would grant the assumption that there are no moose?

On the contrary assumption that the unnatural being was there, you would come up with the identical explanation of the qualia of the expereince entirely from chemical primitives. It follows that the explanation from chemical primitives is irrelevant to the ontological status of the hypothetical stimulus.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jamesjr191

Under your name is a statement about star wars goose bumps and waves of emotion. That too must be the Holy 'dopomine Ghost'! :w00t::tu:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stubbly_Dooright

davros:

Neurochemical mechanisms EVOLVED for the drive to gather resources (reward system pleasure based motivator) for the perpetuation of the species that does not take account of our PRESENT COGNITION. The root force behind ADDICTIONS like GAMBLING & MISTAKEN as a DIVINE PRESENCE (imaginary friend) by some. We are PATTERN SEEKERS (to see that Lion in the tall Grass & discern which Berries made us sick), yearn for "WHAT FEELS GOOD", and when "MAYBE" is entered into the equation it has dynamic effects neurologicaly (our pitfall). Drugs like Alcohol, Cocaine, and Heroine release these REWARD neurochemicals, but PLEASURABLE thoughts like winning money, or John 3:16 is just as addictive. The release of the Holy Dopamine Ghost strengthens neural pathways (learning/memory) which leads to compartmentalizating CONFIRMATION & COGNITIVE BIASES (ever try to reason someone out of a bad habit?). The Holy Dopamine Ghost brings powers of CREATIVITY in turn making sense out of nonsense (notice that the many words of the blessed just tread Water in a River ?).

Research is uncovering new things daily, but for those that want to do their own research: Google "Dopamine Reward System", "Dopamine in Relation to Addiction", "Dopamine Creativity", "Dopamine Release Sleep Deprivation", "Dopamine Learning Memory", "Dopamine irrationality", "Dopamine Gambling", and "Dopamine Hypothesis". Also research "Oxytocin", "Serotonin", and "Cannabinoid Receptor" keeping in mind that many many more neurochemicals are being looked at by science.

I know, it took me a bit, I know see what you mean, when you discuss the HDG. ( part of me was thinking, how appropriate, talking about ghosts at UM. ;) )

But, there have been times, I wonder at how biologically, things affect me and it's usually because of that. I often have to take a moment to reflect how it's possible, and then realize, it is possible. ( and then that scares me even more, how much my body takes over!! )

I also then reflect on the 'sugar pill' if you will, and realize how more what you say, concludes your points, when so much of our body takes over.

( I think also, we should be aware of how much our mind takes over, and that simply 'talking ourselves into it' I think can be separated from that.)

The Holy Dopamine Ghost brings powers of CREATIVITY in turn making sense out of nonsense (notice that the many words of the blessed just tread Water in a River ?).
You know what?! I think I can see that. :yes:
I confess that my antitheism is in part a byproduct of being moved by the Holy Dopamine Ghost, and in one instance led to it's realization. The Holy Dopamine Ghost is in all of us pushing behaviors productive, negative, and stagnant. I used to believe that large marine reptiles were not extinct, but inhabited certain lakes. Luckily my scientific understanding overrode the pleasurable thoughts of seeing these creatures one day, and settled for visiting their fossilized bones in a Museum.
I think also, it can get ones to look even closer, and realize even more, that they are indeed, tires tied together to make what looks like a Lochness monster! :o

So, then ones can find the 'remains' of the 'monster', no wait, of the tires tied together!

The HDG has a neural commonality with someone pursuing a higher education, {'someone collecting Christmas Ornaments,'} someone playing Video Games, someone doing drugs, or someone ensuring themselves of something after their physical body is 6 feet under.
Should I know this person who collects Christmas ornaments??? :hmm::devil::tu:
Back around in 2002 I had a HDG event brought on by sleep deprivation. After 48 hours of working on a project I went to sleep. Not long after I became lucid of my dream (very uncommon for me). I then saw the dreamscape fall away to blackness with just a point of light looking distant. I did not realize at the time that at this point I was awake with a beam of Sunlight hitting my Eye Lids, and under the influence of the HDG. Being open minded I mentally asked "God?", and then it seemed to pulse in response.
Here's an interesting situation that I think might bear reflection. ( and with a question ) would you account all situations where there hasn't been sleep for days? What if someone doesn't have any 'experiences' of such after that? The reason I'm asking is, years ago, ( being a sufferer of occasional insomia ) I had gone 'three days' :o of no sleep. I even went to work. Despite the tiredness and such my body was going through, I didn't have any other such partaining experiences one would associate with this. No one told me I acted out of sync or such, so it's not like I can just say in my words only, weird things happened or I claimed at the time it did.

So, how can one tell the difference, from everyone without sleep, if there are weird experiences felt by some?

I opened my Eyes, and then went outside. Everything had an aura like sheen around it, and I felt intense joy. Any care was lifted off my shoulders, and everything made sense (even the light that pulsed a communication). I then started to recognise that I felt drugged, and it was in my Head (I could feel it), and I haven't taken anything.
Nope! Didn't happen to me. I wish.
I then noticed how simular everything was (minus the aura sheen) to the time a decade earlier I tried Valium once (do not do drugs kids). I went on to study the effects of sleep deprivation which showed I was under the effects of the HDG. Schizophrenics have higher than normal HDG in their system causing hallucinations hence the aura sheen I seen. The HDG causes pleasure which is a motivator to repeat it's release (core of addiction). I remember thinking the experience was better than any drug which is ironic because that's what drugs do (also designers are making ever increasingly dangerous drugs).
I find this a very interesting experience and reflection here. I do believe of the body taking over from such experiences and chemicals introduced to it. But, what of the varying differences each person has to them? One who is allergic to various chemicals, as opposed to some who don't? ( like people allergic pennicillian ) Some people don't get drunk fast, as opposed to some who do. ( on the same body weight and stomach contents )
I understand now how someone meditating for days, or stressed out can have an HDG event, then believe whatever dogma, or crank fantasy that was fed them. I understand how pure thought can have the same effect. Just imagine winning millions in the Lottery. Now you would feel great (pooring out of the HDG), but it would be hard pressed to convince you that the God Fortunea is smiling on you. Now imagine being addicted to drugs (which releases not the Kraken, but the HDG), and switching it to something that thought alone does the job (also your subconscious knows the safer bet). I have known addicts of all kinds. They do act as if an outside force is pushing them, but it's the neurology that is not thinking nor them. The HDG is just for gathering resources, survive, reproduce, and our thinking can be pushed aside.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe strongly, introducing and talking about the effects of the body and personal experiences have a big impact on how we should reflect on our experiences. The thing is, there are times, when a body clean from outside chemical influences, and meditating with a clear mind ( blank and such purposely ) can probably eliminate such interferences ( I said might, and it doesn't mean totally clean from it. ) and such experiences can occur.
For those that want to argue "How do you know it's not how the divine interacts with us?". Well I have to throw evolution, neurology, and psychology away first. Then I have to ignore that the same Block & Tackle God uses to communicate to us is also responsible for a multitude of horrors. Just try to reason someone out of a gambling habit....Good work Holy Dopamine Ghost!

With a world we have today, I hope some see the further implications of the HDG that I did not touch on?

We are wired for what feels good. Keep in mind that people that hold doctorates are not of immunity to addictive behavior, or irrational beliefs even though less of them do.

I do agree, that a lot of what you discuss and your sources and such, do make a lot of sense to me. As someone who has been with a 'slight learning disability' through out her life, doesn't think that it can be eliminated from her body, but has to 'work around it' to deal with life. I feel, there are a lot of things, that we are 'wired with'.

And I wonder if it's either 'nature' or 'nurture' when it comes to the love to read. ( based by experience, observation, and my job with both ) and the jury is still out on that one. I do not usually see a clear connection of one or the other is one hundred percent correct.

But, and I do say but, ( further time in the future to go through your links, and I think I have watched most or some of your links there in the past, (( some look familiar)) and such))

I feel that it's not totally linked under such a strong biological reaction. Like I said, I see your points here. ( more so, with our discussion of my experience of Christmas lights and houses ) how I 'worship' them out of what they do to me, I sometimes feel that it's not a usual pattern though. And I wonder how the 'effect' can wear off, or that just having the houses, without them lit up can have that effect. ( I come to this conclusion just now, as I look over my collection and they're not turned on. (( seriously, there are no bulbs or chords attach to them at the moment)

Plus, a lot of the times, I have read and heard, and experienced situations, where one is not even under any sort of 'influence' and or thinking of things, and out of the ordinary things occur without sound explanations. I think about my experiences of what my 'spirit' says to me, when no other 'influences' are going on. I a including when my body is at peace and calmness, and nothing is 'spiking' when I feel good 'after' an 'experience'

( I am also remembering and reflecting of the experiences of when I saw varying 'UFO's' that during the time my body was not having an effect to assume the 'weird sightings'. )

Have there been different patterns to what the body is going through ( emotions and different chemical influences ) when a consistent 'experience' is resulting all the time?

I do realize, I still am 'disagreeing' here, but maybe it's because I want to explore this further and I'm glad you brought this into a full thread. :yes:

( and that I promised to take part too! :D )

I then read 8bits's post, and feel, it's kind of close to what I'm asking.

It is, right? :hmm::cry:

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liquid Gardens

It follows that the explanation from chemical primitives is irrelevant to the ontological status of the hypothetical stimulus.

Agreed, which seems to then rebut whom davros mentions: "those that want to argue "How do you know it's not how the divine interacts with us?"."

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eight bits

Ms Mustard

I then read 8bits's post, and feel, it's kind of close to what I'm asking.

It is, right?

Yes, bullseye.

Also, I think the point you make about "resting" experiences is important. Organized religion is doing something together, so "religious experiences" trace to "doing something:" fasting, or dancing, or drumming or breathing in unusual ways ... But many intense experiences come when just letting go, nobody around, not looking for any trouble.

Interpretation is everything, and that might not happen until long after the dopamine hit has worn off. The dopamine can explain why you're still thinking about it, but it doesn't explain what you think you about it.

LG

Agreed, which seems to then rebut whom davros mentions: "those that want to argue "How do you know it's not how the divine interacts with us?"."

To which the surrebuttal is: a moose can find ways to assure me that he's actually there and that it is him and not just me, surely THE DIVINE can manage that. What've you got?

What should happen at that point, one way or the other, is that the conversation moves away from dopamine and onto whatever this other thing (or nothing) is that supports their interpretation of their experience.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liquid Gardens

To which the surrebuttal is: a moose can find ways to assure me that he's actually there and that it is him and not just me, surely THE DIVINE can manage that. What've you got?

Ha, what I've got is a near guarantee that I have ways to assure you the moose actually exist; thankfully there are enough of those beasties still around, besides photos, videos, etc, of their existence, that I don't have to rely much on 'a moose' itself to make itself known. What do 'you' have for the divine? Nothing close in my experience. So as yet, apparently the divine can't manage this to the degree a moose can and the moose isn't even trying, which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for the existence of the divine.

What should happen at that point, one way or the other, is that the conversation moves away from dopamine and onto whatever this other thing (or nothing) is that supports their interpretation of their experience.

And in your experience, has anyone actually moved on to this other 'thing'? Not in mine, at least one that is accepted as valid and is not special pleading. If it's really 'nothing', then by process of elimination dopamine's looking better and better.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eight bits

LG

And in your experience, has anyone actually moved on to this other 'thing'? Not in mine, at least one that is accepted as valid and is not special pleading. If it's really 'nothing', then by process of elimination dopamine's looking better and better.

Sure. Not everyone interprets these experiences in fantastical ways, for one thing. Apart from religion, some experiences carry "metaphysical" meanings (you hear about "oneness" for example), or "epistemological" meanings (a feeling of great confidence in a message that sometimes the person can't remember afterwards beyond an impression). Meanwhile, there are anomalous experiences thought to be religiously important that don't have any ecstatic component (see Habitat's first post in this thread).

There's plenty to talk about besides dopamine. Not always; I'm not denying your experience, just saying that other experience is possible.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doug1o29

The problem: how does the brain generate mind?

In the process of generating mind, does it also generate god?

Doug

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eight bits

Doug

In the process of generating mind, does it also generate god?

That's easy.

Do polytheists have minds? If so, then mind can be made with making god singular. Do non-theist people have minds? If so, then minds can be made without making gods.

Not so long ago, we were thinking in another thread about the Piraha, who have some "possession" and other "invisible intelligent power" ideas without necessarily hypostasizing a "possessing entity" (although apparently sometimes the possessor is an identifiable dead person), much less deifying it (he? she?). The Piraha seem to have minds. They surely have a language.

It's oddly Protestant to think that if God were a mental construct, then it must be the construct of the mind that experiences something to which the construct is applied. As opposed to, say, an entrepeneurial figure who might see economic opportunity in serving other people's wishes for a meaningful interpretation of their dreams, etc.

Wear a funny hat. Tell a funny story. Serve adult beverages. Profit.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doug1o29

That's easy.

I need to be clearer.

Anybody can make up a god - ex.: Flying Spaghetti Monster. But is the experience referred to as "god," only a product of the mind's internal workings, quite apart from external learning and input? I think that is what Davros is getting at, but it seems to me there is more to it than dopamine.

Doug

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Clockwork_Spirit
In the process of generating mind, does it also generate god?

Doug

This is one of those thread where the OP attempts to convince us that spiritual and mystical experiences are merely the products of mechanistic processes in the brain. You're a biological robot living in a meaningless Universe, so obviously your personal experiences must either be hallucinations or delusions. Case closed.

(LINK) Materialism | Philosophy | - Encyclopedia Britannica

Edited by TruthSeeker_
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Habitat

This is one of those thread where the OP attempts to convince us that spiritual and mystical experiences are merely the products of mechanistic processes in the brain. You're a biological robot living in a meaningless Universe, so obviously your personal experiences must either be hallucinations or delusions. Case closed.

(LINK) Materialism | Philosophy | - Encyclopedia Britannica

As much an attempt to convince himself, I think.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eight bits

TruthSeeker

The problem may be one step subtler. It is entirely possible that whatever meaning there is in the universe is made by its resident consciousnesses. The universe is a big place, and I don't know how things are everywhere, but on this world, consciousness is situated and embodied. We are the conscious, we make the meaning in this neck of the woods.

If there is another consciousness lurking hereabouts, unsituated and incorporeal, then perhaps it, too, makes meanings appropriate for itself. It remains to be established why its meanings and my meanings ought to coincide.

Doug

FSM isn't a god, it's a joke, a parody of religion by the irreligious. Laughter feels good, too, but it's not the kind of thing that is easily confused with reverence.

The trick in making up a powerful character of any type is to "touch a chord." Only a nerd could imagine that Zeus was "made up" to "explain" lightning to people who lacked the knowledge to make up Bill Nye instead.

Zeus was crafted to elicit what thunder and lightning make typical people feel. The least interesting thing to be said about Zeus is that he doesn't exist, the second least interesting is that he is a poor explanation for thunder.

Zeus doesn't exist and doesn't explain, but he does resound. That's what gets the dopamine going: correlated meaning, a.k.a. resonance. Why Zeus gets the dopamine going, and FSM doesn't, is what needs to be explored.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MERRY DMAS

davros

Congratulations on getting enough likes elsewhere to sally forth with this thread.

Thank you. At first I was going to go by 3 likes, then 4, then decided on 5 to challenge the opposition. ;)

The problem with the theory in a nutshell is that learning cognition with a chemsitry set is like learning computer science with a voltmeter. That brains and computers are physical realizations of something is interesting. Knowing what they are realizations of is critical. We don't.

We have inklings. There definitely is a heuristic that we warm bloodeds embrace: if something you did felt good, then do that again. Often, doing it won't feel as good the second and subsequent times, but it will feel better than not doing it. Close enough to a reason to keep doing it.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I react strongly to meeting other animals in the woods. You really have to meet a moose (called an elk in some places outside North America) unexpectedly to appreciate the qualia of the experience. Maybe your reaction wouldn't be anything like mine, though.

From my reactions, you can infer nothing about the moose. The other side of that coin is that from my reactions, I can infer nothing about the moose, either. So, I need to be careful not to read more into an experience, any experience, than is really there.

It follows that it is a lucky break that I have good reasons for thinking that the moose was really there apart from my emotional reactions to him. By their lack of nature, gods, spirits, fairies, jinn and other such will not furnish such good reasons.

On the assumption that the unnatural being wasn't there, you can explain the experience entirely from chemical primitives (a variant of what is called "the brain in the vat" problem). The hitch is, why on earth would a believer in jinn grant your premise any more readily than I, a believer in moose, would grant the assumption that there are no moose?

On the contrary assumption that the unnatural being was there, you would come up with the identical explanation of the qualia of the expereince entirely from chemical primitives. It follows that the explanation from chemical primitives is irrelevant to the ontological status of the hypothetical stimulus.

Well I'm not going on the "Brain in a Vat" assumption. Just an hour ago a scared Bear ran past me out from the dark. It had to travel along the fence line coming within 15 feet of me. I was surprised, and do not doubt it was real. Sure I can entertain philosophical skepticism, but to what end?

I'm going on what we do know, and there's more to know. If I was in a Bicycle race? I would not sit at the starting line thinking if peddling actually makes me move.

If an entity can interact with my biology, then it can act on the physical. If it only chooses to do the former, then it just wants those that cannot distinguish between the natural, and unnatural.

The Holy Dopamine Ghost is in all of us. A video that I did not include had a woman who has clinical depression. Scientists installed electrodes in her brain that activates the HDG. She was smiling, and kept on wanting to press the button. What she had to do externally, people can do with just thought.

I say evidence is more on my side, and philosophical epistemology is mostly empty criticism to me.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MERRY DMAS

I've never ever experienced any elation at all from the HDG, what am I doing wrong ?

It's called "cognitive dissonance". LOL!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MERRY DMAS

Under your name is a statement about star wars goose bumps and waves of emotion. That too must be the Holy 'dopomine Ghost'! :w00t::tu:

No that's the Holy Dopamine Force. HA! HA!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MERRY DMAS

davros:

I know, it took me a bit, I know see what you mean, when you discuss the HDG. ( part of me was thinking, how appropriate, talking about ghosts at UM. ;) )

But, there have been times, I wonder at how biologically, things affect me and it's usually because of that. I often have to take a moment to reflect how it's possible, and then realize, it is possible. ( and then that scares me even more, how much my body takes over!! )

I also then reflect on the 'sugar pill' if you will, and realize how more what you say, concludes your points, when so much of our body takes over.

( I think also, we should be aware of how much our mind takes over, and that simply 'talking ourselves into it' I think can be separated from that.)

You know what?! I think I can see that. :yes:

I think also, it can get ones to look even closer, and realize even more, that they are indeed, tires tied together to make what looks like a Lochness monster! :o

So, then ones can find the 'remains' of the 'monster', no wait, of the tires tied together!

Should I know this person who collects Christmas ornaments??? :hmm::devil::tu:

Here's an interesting situation that I think might bear reflection. ( and with a question ) would you account all situations where there hasn't been sleep for days? What if someone doesn't have any 'experiences' of such after that? The reason I'm asking is, years ago, ( being a sufferer of occasional insomia ) I had gone 'three days' :o of no sleep. I even went to work. Despite the tiredness and such my body was going through, I didn't have any other such partaining experiences one would associate with this. No one told me I acted out of sync or such, so it's not like I can just say in my words only, weird things happened or I claimed at the time it did.

So, how can one tell the difference, from everyone without sleep, if there are weird experiences felt by some?

Nope! Didn't happen to me. I wish.

I find this a very interesting experience and reflection here. I do believe of the body taking over from such experiences and chemicals introduced to it. But, what of the varying differences each person has to them? One who is allergic to various chemicals, as opposed to some who don't? ( like people allergic pennicillian ) Some people don't get drunk fast, as opposed to some who do. ( on the same body weight and stomach contents )

Don't get me wrong, I do believe strongly, introducing and talking about the effects of the body and personal experiences have a big impact on how we should reflect on our experiences. The thing is, there are times, when a body clean from outside chemical influences, and meditating with a clear mind ( blank and such purposely ) can probably eliminate such interferences ( I said might, and it doesn't mean totally clean from it. ) and such experiences can occur.

I do agree, that a lot of what you discuss and your sources and such, do make a lot of sense to me. As someone who has been with a 'slight learning disability' through out her life, doesn't think that it can be eliminated from her body, but has to 'work around it' to deal with life. I feel, there are a lot of things, that we are 'wired with'.

And I wonder if it's either 'nature' or 'nurture' when it comes to the love to read. ( based by experience, observation, and my job with both ) and the jury is still out on that one. I do not usually see a clear connection of one or the other is one hundred percent correct.

But, and I do say but, ( further time in the future to go through your links, and I think I have watched most or some of your links there in the past, (( some look familiar)) and such))

I feel that it's not totally linked under such a strong biological reaction. Like I said, I see your points here. ( more so, with our discussion of my experience of Christmas lights and houses ) how I 'worship' them out of what they do to me, I sometimes feel that it's not a usual pattern though. And I wonder how the 'effect' can wear off, or that just having the houses, without them lit up can have that effect. ( I come to this conclusion just now, as I look over my collection and they're not turned on. (( seriously, there are no bulbs or chords attach to them at the moment)

Plus, a lot of the times, I have read and heard, and experienced situations, where one is not even under any sort of 'influence' and or thinking of things, and out of the ordinary things occur without sound explanations. I think about my experiences of what my 'spirit' says to me, when no other 'influences' are going on. I a including when my body is at peace and calmness, and nothing is 'spiking' when I feel good 'after' an 'experience'

( I am also remembering and reflecting of the experiences of when I saw varying 'UFO's' that during the time my body was not having an effect to assume the 'weird sightings'. )

Have there been different patterns to what the body is going through ( emotions and different chemical influences ) when a consistent 'experience' is resulting all the time?

I do realize, I still am 'disagreeing' here, but maybe it's because I want to explore this further and I'm glad you brought this into a full thread. :yes:

( and that I promised to take part too! :D )

I then read 8bits's post, and feel, it's kind of close to what I'm asking.

It is, right? :hmm::cry:

I'm pressed for time so I cannot address everything now.

Please tell me (here or pm) the weird things during your insomnia. I have on rare occasions hallucinated when my asleep neurological state overlapped into my awakening state (both visual and auditory).

Just to make clear the HDG is metaphor for neurological processes that may include more than Dopamine, and also to blaspheme the fictional Holy Ghost.

We need these things to survive.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MERRY DMAS

Agreed, which seems to then rebut whom davros mentions: "those that want to argue "How do you know it's not how the divine interacts with us?"."

Sure, if you want to throw away evidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eight bits

davros

Lol. I am not recommending that you adopt the brain in the vat as your model of the human situation, nor do I doubt your bear.

Your bear and my moose don't choose to interact with us physically, we're all physical and so off we go, physically interacting. I am completely unsure how a nonphysical entity would interact with anything, but my thinking suffices for a physical reaction to occur in me. That would not be anybody's choice, not even mine. If something interesting happens and I apprehend it cognitively, then many apprehensions elicit some bodily response.

Assuming that I survive the experience, then I may think of it long after the bodily response has subsided. I will look for some meaning in it. Odds are that I'll find a meaning, because my being makes meaning as surely as it makes dopamine.

Evidence? Observations that are more likely under one uncertain hypothesis of interest than another. The hypotheses of interest are ontological. Your observations are identically likely under the ontological hypothesis you favor as under any ontological hypothesis advocated here against yours. It follows that your observations aren't evidence, with respect to any uncertainty discussed here.

It's a rookie mistake to obsess on how well an observation comports with a favored hypothesis, not to ask "Compared with what?" How well does the observation comport with an alternative hypothesis? Just as well, as it happens, with every alternative that has actual advocates. Ooops.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stubbly_Dooright

8bits:

Yes, bullseye.

Also, I think the point you make about "resting" experiences is important. Organized religion is doing something together, so "religious experiences" trace to "doing something:" fasting, or dancing, or drumming or breathing in unusual ways ... But many intense experiences come when just letting go, nobody around, not looking for any trouble.

Interpretation is everything, and that might not happen until long after the dopamine hit has worn off. The dopamine can explain why you're still thinking about it, but it doesn't explain what you think you about it.

I have found, there have been way too many variables, that cannot conclude one type answer. I do think davros is on to something. I often wonder how some believers, ( and I'm thinking of those who are so dramatically happy and speak Jesus's name ever sentence and so exhubarantly ) that would explain to me davros's point. It is like they are on something, ....... biologically. Not Jesus, like these dramatically type individuals like to say. Sometimes, I wonder how is it they are like deep core fans, like you see at teen idol concerts, or sports arenas. So, I can see how there must be something going on in the wiring that does these, I guess. *shrugs*

But to those, like a friend of mine in the past, who is just peaceful and matter of course, ( I know, there might be something chemically inducing peace ) but this is something that looks like from grabbing as much of it as you can. It looks like from an 'understanding' if you will. ( though if some forms of the 'instant forgiveness' from my thread does this. ) * just wondering, that's all! :o *

Plus, there have been experiences, that don't always get achieved on demand, and the body is in different states to get them.

So, yeah, :yes:

doug:

The problem: how does the brain generate mind?

In the process of generating mind, does it also generate god?

Doug

Yikes! Too early in the morning for me, for that one!! :o

Kidding, and that is something that I always reflect on as well. Sometimes, I wonder how much is chemically induced and how much is the 'spirit'.

TruthSeeker:

This is one of those thread where the OP attempts to convince us that spiritual and mystical experiences are merely the products of mechanistic processes in the brain. You're a biological robot living in a meaningless Universe, so obviously your personal experiences must either be hallucinations or delusions. Case closed.
I think, ... maybe. But, if one gets more time to read the OP and his posts through out the forum, I think one will end up getting surprised at exactly what the message or point is. I just don't think one can pinpoint exactly various people and posters, so this thread could just have some more information that was not around before. I say, read on and see! :D

Habitat:

As much an attempt to convince himself, I think.
Self-confidence is one of the many characteristics is one of the first quick descriptions I would think of the OP. So, I personally doubt it.

8bits:

Doug

FSM isn't a god, it's a joke, a parody of religion by the irreligious. Laughter feels good, too, but it's not the kind of thing that is easily confused with reverence.

The trick in making up a powerful character of any type is to "touch a chord." Only a nerd could imagine that Zeus was "made up" to "explain" lightning to people who lacked the knowledge to make up Bill Nye instead.

Zeus was crafted to elicit what thunder and lightning make typical people feel. The least interesting thing to be said about Zeus is that he doesn't exist, the second least interesting is that he is a poor explanation for thunder.

Zeus doesn't exist and doesn't explain, but he does resound. That's what gets the dopamine going: correlated meaning, a.k.a. resonance. Why Zeus gets the dopamine going, and FSM doesn't, is what needs to be explored.

I always thought, when Doug brought the FSM (thank you for initialing it ) that he was aware it came into being as a comparising point for religious discussions.

Though, I wonder if it itself, could end up just as holy in thinking and believing in the far future, that it too and it's 'benefits' ( ;) ) could be just as much as a study in this thread as well. :P

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stubbly_Dooright

davros:

Well I'm not going on the "Brain in a Vat" assumption. Just an hour ago a scared Bear ran past me out from the dark. It had to travel along the fence line coming within 15 feet of me. I was surprised, and do not doubt it was real. Sure I can entertain philosophical skepticism, but to what end?
Seriously?!?! :cry::o That happened?!

Well, than, if it did, than it coming back or at the time, giving you a good mawing, might just be a good time to come to the conclusion ....

.... that it's real??! *cringes* ( I will pay for that one! )

The Holy Dopamine Ghost is in all of us. A video that I did not include had a woman who has clinical depression. Scientists installed electrodes in her brain that activates the HDG. She was smiling, and kept on wanting to press the button. What she had to do externally, people can do with just thought.
I think bringing up those with things like clinical depression does bear note in your OP and such. I think we are all aware of how things now that are diagnosed as biolgoically happening now, were considered something of a spiritual nature or just the wrong kind of attitude! :no:

And now, things like that, in the most part, are taken seriously. Then again, we also have those who clammer on about being a nation of doping up everyone now, and that it's lazy parenting to dope up their very hyperactive children.

I think, we need to study further, and not be quick to say one way or another. As someone who was diagnosed with a slight learning disability later in college, who has relatives, couple of siblings, and a child of a sibling ( I even tested my kids for it ) with Tourette's Syndrom, I sometimes have to consider biology over spirit.

I'm just saying, yes, it's good not to jump fully into the spiritual answer ( even though I'm very much into that, believing that ) we should also shouldn't jump into the biology mode, ( well mostly so toward very subjective finger pointing ;) )

But it is important, as I know by experience. :yes: I think, that I can understand that we're probably making up for lost time, so to speak, but I think we shouldn't go full blast into it either.

Davros:

I'm pressed for time so I cannot address everything now.

Just to make clear the HDG is metaphor for neurological processes that may include more than Dopamine, and also to blaspheme the fictional Holy Ghost.

We need these things to survive.

Don't get me wrong, I agree. Like I said, it's more understood now, and I can see that. I just think, there is still too much out there, to make a definitive conclusion. We could say that is a subjective conclusion for me. :D

Your question here:

Please tell me (here or pm) the weird things during your insomnia. I have on rare occasions hallucinated when my asleep neurological state overlapped into my awakening state (both visual and auditory).
I don't think I had that, when I mentioned that experience:
Here's an interesting situation that I think might bear reflection. ( and with a question ) would you account all situations where there hasn't been sleep for days? What if someone doesn't have any 'experiences' of such after that? The reason I'm asking is, years ago, ( being a sufferer of occasional insomia ) I had gone 'three days' :o of no sleep. I even went to work. Despite the tiredness and such my body was going through, I didn't have any other such partaining experiences one would associate with this. No one told me I acted out of sync or such, so it's not like I can just say in my words only, weird things happened or I claimed at the time it did.

So, how can one tell the difference, from everyone without sleep, if there are weird experiences felt by some?

Nope! Didn't happen to me. I wish.

I didn't have any experiences, out of the ordinary or to be pointed back to my lack of sleep. That is what I am talking about. I even worried very much, that I would have. Luckily, I didn't. It was all the biological tiredness and such. No, halicinations at all. Unless of course, when I did go to work on the third day of no sleep, I wasn't really at work. :o

No, wait! I am told I was.

Anyways, that is what I am saying, I didn't have any kind of experiences that would understandably have during that. When I have had varying experiences, some of them were experienced when I had sleep, no forms of medications in the body, and such, my body wasn't producing anything differently, and then I experienced these things. So, it's up in the air with me. But as for the insomia situation, nada!

LG:

Agreed, which seems to then rebut whom davros mentions: "those that want to argue "How do you know it's not how the divine interacts with us?"."

Sure, if you want to throw away evidence.

What evidence? *cringes*

8bits:

davros

Lol. I am not recommending that you adopt the brain in the vat as your model of the human situation, nor do I doubt your bear.

Your bear and my moose don't choose to interact with us physically, we're all physical and so off we go, physically interacting. I am completely unsure how a nonphysical entity would interact with anything, but my thinking suffices for a physical reaction to occur in me. That would not be anybody's choice, not even mine. If something interesting happens and I apprehend it cognitively, then many apprehensions elicit some bodily response.

Does this in anyway go hand in hand to my three cats, and very suspicious scratches on my body each morning? :w00t:
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liquid Gardens

Zeus doesn't exist and doesn't explain, but he does resound.

To be honest, I'm not sure why you say that Zeus doesn't exist and yet are agnostic about 'God', if you are. I may be wrong, maybe you say also that the Christian God doesn't exist, but you are agnostic because you aren't comfortable saying that the set 'gods' is empty. You of course can only guess that 'Zeus was crafted to...', and I'm not sure why we can't come up with a similar, 'Yahweh was crafted to...' statement of equal validity and credibility, but maybe you wouldn't dispute that.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liquid Gardens

It's a rookie mistake to obsess on how well an observation comports with a favored hypothesis, not to ask "Compared with what?" How well does the observation comport with an alternative hypothesis? Just as well, as it happens, with every alternative that has actual advocates. Ooops.

Not sure if I'm following this. I drop acid and have a conversation with God. How well does this observation comport with the fact that this only occurred in my brain because I'm tripping? Very well. How does this observation comport with the alternative hypothesis that I'm actually talking with the actual God? "Just as well"?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.