Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3251 Share Posted July 25, 2016 I recently had a dream where I asked a long-dead relative why God does not reveal himself to all and sundry. He replied that we could not stand the light of God for a second ! Just a dream, but it made me wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted July 25, 2016 #3252 Share Posted July 25, 2016 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Habitat said: what demonstration would convince people, in your opinion ? He could "move a mountain", he wouldn't even need to use the faith of a mustard seed, whatever way he chooses would do. If god were to move Mt. Everest for a day to say, the middle of the Sahara and then move it back, that would be convincing. We could get scientists to document it. Should be no problem for someone who can make a universe and speak light into existence. Funny how the miracles have dried up in modern times, with the advent of science, literacy and education. Edited July 25, 2016 by Horta 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3253 Share Posted July 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, Horta said: He could "move a mountain", he wouldn't even need to use the faith of a mustard seed, whatever way he chooses would do. If god were to move Mt. Everest for a day to say, the middle of the Sahara and then move it back, that would be convincing. Should be no problem for someone who can make a universe and speak light into existence. And what would ensue from such a demonstration, do you think ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted July 25, 2016 #3254 Share Posted July 25, 2016 6 minutes ago, Habitat said: And what would ensue from such a demonstration, do you think ? A worldwide acceptance that god exists. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3255 Share Posted July 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, Horta said: A worldwide acceptance that god exists. And how would that play out ? It would hardly be business as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted July 25, 2016 #3256 Share Posted July 25, 2016 6 minutes ago, Habitat said: And how would that play out ? It would hardly be business as usual. It would be great for some, awful for others. But at least we would know that we have a loving god evil sky overlord watching over us. Many would be subservient without a whimper, but perhaps it would galvanise efforts of science, to find a way to rid the universe of such a tyrant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3257 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Just now, Horta said: It would be great for some, awful for others. But at least we would know that we have a loving god evil sky overlord watching over us. Many would be subservient without a whimper, but perhaps it would galvanise efforts of science, to find a way to rid the universe of such a tyrant. It would be no good to anyone that I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted July 25, 2016 #3258 Share Posted July 25, 2016 5 minutes ago, Habitat said: It would be no good to anyone that I can see. Is this leading up to another special pleading type of argument/fallacy somewhere? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3259 Share Posted July 25, 2016 It is not immediately apparent to me how such a demonstration would benefit anyone, that's all. It could be utterly disastrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted July 25, 2016 #3260 Share Posted July 25, 2016 1 minute ago, Habitat said: It is not immediately apparent to me how such a demonstration would benefit anyone, that's all. It could be utterly disastrous. God requires people to believe in him. It is not unreasonable therefore, that he demonstrates that he does actually have an existence. Then we could take it from there. It's not like it (religion) hasn't already been quite disastrous. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3261 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Just now, Horta said: God requires people to believe in him. It is not unreasonable therefore, that he demonstrates that he does actually have an existence. Then we could take it from there. It's not like it (religion) hasn't already been quite disastrous. Supposition on your part. Please try again ! And as for religion having been disastrous......... more guesswork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted July 25, 2016 #3262 Share Posted July 25, 2016 '"God requires people to believe in him." Why? Seems to me that paints an ugly, egoistic, vain, domineering, picture of God. I don't think if an infinite being really existed his presence would be deniable, but that is another issue. The idea that God does what he does for his "praise" and "glory," and that those who don't believe are gonna "get it" is a primitive, vengeful, arrogant god and plainly derived from the imaginings of small autocratic peopple. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3263 Share Posted July 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, Frank Merton said: '"God requires people to believe in him." Why? Seems to me that paints an ugly, egoistic, vain, domineering, picture of God. I don't think if an infinite being really existed his presence would be deniable, but that is another issue. The idea that God does what he does for his "praise" and "glory," and that those who don't believe are gonna "get it" is a primitive, vengeful, arrogant god and plainly derived from the imaginings of small autocratic peopple. I'd generally agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted July 25, 2016 #3264 Share Posted July 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, Habitat said: Supposition on your part. Please try again ! And as for religion having been disastrous......... more guesswork. That's quite bizarre Habitat. Do you really require biblical verses explaining this...? You haven't heard of Tomas de Torquemada, the Cathars, the racist idiocy of Martin Luther, people flying planes into buildings...and on and on...that sort of thing? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3265 Share Posted July 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, Horta said: That's quite bizarre Habitat. Do you really require biblical verses explaining this...? You haven't heard of Tomas de Torquemada, the Cathars, the racist idiocy of Martin Luther, people flying planes into buildings...and on and on...that sort of thing? And yet we are here discussing it freely. I don't see the disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted July 25, 2016 #3266 Share Posted July 25, 2016 1 minute ago, Habitat said: And yet we are here discussing it freely. I don't see the disaster. Do you realize your imaginings about the perils of god undeniably demonstrating that he exists to all, are by their very definition, complete supposition? Yes, but that is your own narrow egocentric view. You're alright, so those other things never happened and religious based problems don't exist. You do realize (or not) that one particular group are causing quite a few problems to the west on god's behalf? It's well known that immense misery and ignorance has accompanied religion not only throughout our history, but continues to do so. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3267 Share Posted July 25, 2016 1 minute ago, Horta said: Do you realize your imaginings about the perils of god undeniably demonstrating that he exists to all, are by their very definition, complete supposition? Yes, but that is your own narrow egocentric view. You're alright, so those other things never happened and religious based problems don't exist. You do realize (or not) that one particular group are causing quite a few problems to the west on god's behalf? It's well known that immense misery and ignorance has accompanied religion not only throughout our history, but continues to do so. You have to look at things on balance, you may imagine a utopia where organized religion never existed, in reality you might have had something much worse. after all, Stalin shut down the church, and the paradise you anticipate did not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted July 25, 2016 #3268 Share Posted July 25, 2016 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Habitat said: You have to look at things on balance, you may imagine a utopia where organized religion never existed, in reality you might have had something much worse. after all, Stalin shut down the church, and the paradise you anticipate did not happen. Yes, but Stalin was insane. He simply replaced one brainwashing cult for another, with himself as grand pooh-bah instead of some vague god. If you took away the magic, god and stalin share lots of commonalities, there are lots of similarities between those two. There will never be a Utopia and religious belief delusion itself isn't necessarily the problem. As shown in Nordic/Scandinavian Europe where people have largely turned to their own personal religion that doesn't necessarily include a god (and they are amongst the most functional societies on earth). Organised religions, fanatics, or anyone who claims to be intermediary of god and pretends to dictate what people must believe and who wish to enforce this on others, or base legislation, mobilise forces and so forth based on their delusion, that is more of a problem though. Religion (particularly organised religion) is famous for this and the deluded and fanatical nutters it breeds. It (god based religion) is in general based on personal delusion and credulity though, so it's debatable whether that is a good thing in the end regardless. It wouldn't have to be a delusion if god chose to show he exists. It might stop many of the squabbles. Edited July 25, 2016 by Horta 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted July 25, 2016 #3269 Share Posted July 25, 2016 4 hours ago, Habitat said: You have to look at things on balance, you may imagine a utopia where organized religion never existed, in reality you might have had something much worse. after all, Stalin shut down the church, and the paradise you anticipate did not happen. We don't know what the world would be like if organized religion had never existed, but there are religions around that show little if any organization, such as animists and Buddhists and certainly the religious traditions of China. Here there was history alright, but mostly either civil wars or foreign invasions, but not until quite late were there religious wars, and I know of only one. Americans and some other Westerners tend to think of religion in the Indo-European sense (Jews, Christians and Muslims and, unfortunately, Hindus), their problem is they are sectarian -- they claim to have the truth and other are evil. That is obviously a road to all sorts of the sorts of things we see in the history of Europe and the Americas and the Middle East, and now in Africa. Religions that have a spiritual sense of openness and while they may think some things are delusional they don't denounce them as evil and often are ready to incorporate or even accept them as valid -- such religions tend to be not terribly well organized and tend to be much less violent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3270 Share Posted July 25, 2016 4 hours ago, Horta said: Yes, but Stalin was insane. He simply replaced one brainwashing cult for another, with himself replacing god. Lots of similarities between those two. There will never be a Utopia and religious belief itself isn't the problem. As shown in Nordic/Sandanavian Europe where people have largely turned to their own personal religion (and they are amongst the most functional societies on earth). Organised religions that dictate what people must believe and who wish to enforce it on others, or base legislation or mobilise forces and so forth based on their delusion, that is more of a problem though. organised religion is famous for this and the resultant nutters. An idiotic comparison, imo, no church forces anyone to do anything, Stalin, on the other hand had the power of life and death, and used it relentlessly. In a secular society, there is no grounds to be be whining about organized religion, than there is about commercial advertising. In neither case is there force or compulsion to "buy". Try again ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted July 25, 2016 #3271 Share Posted July 25, 2016 At this very moment in some countries it is against the law not to believe in god. In some of the more modern "secular" countries it is not unlawful, it is only heavily discriminated against (the USA). Try again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3272 Share Posted July 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, Horta said: At this very moment in some countries it is against the law not to believe in god. In some of the more modern "secular" countries it is not unlawful, it is only heavily discriminated against (the USA). Try again. Heavily discriminated against ? In what way ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 25, 2016 #3273 Share Posted July 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, Habitat said: Heavily discriminated against ? In what way ? If you want to get on in politics, it certainly seems to help to pretend, at any rate, that you're a practising Christian. I remember when they tried to reassure everyone that Barack H. Obama prays every night before bed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted July 25, 2016 #3274 Share Posted July 25, 2016 You are not that dumb. Despite your belief in the airy fairy. How many openly non believing leaders has the US had? God is still used as an acceptable pretext for military invasion by modern "secular" leaders (US and England). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 25, 2016 #3275 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Politicians will align themselves with whatever works to get elected. No one gives them the truth serum injection to establish how genuine they are about it. I would imagine in strongly secular democratic states, waxing enthusiastic about God would turn voters away. So really you are just complaining about populist tactics of politicians. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now