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Is religion about to die out?

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Rlyeh
15 minutes ago, Alan McDougall said:

 

That is not correct he said "Don't tell God what to do"

Einstein vacillated between that of an outright atheist to a deist, he said if he believed in a God It would be the God of the Dutch philosopher Spinoza

By your reasoning he must be burning in hell.

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Alan McDougall

"Lord Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do"

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Rlyeh
7 hours ago, Habitat said:

The real puzzle is why so many people are so resistant to the idea of a "God", as if they have something to lose by it.

If you're any indication, they lose their rationality.

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Habitat
Just now, Rlyeh said:

If you're any indication, they lose their rationality.

Thanks ! Don't worry, I am infuriatingly sane. I think ?

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Alan McDougall
1 minute ago, Rlyeh said:

By your reasoning he must be burning in hell.

No that is your reasoning and your statement

It is depravity that will put a person in hell Einstein is not in hell but Hitler is with Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and a host of paedophiles

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Rlyeh
1 minute ago, Alan McDougall said:

No that is your reasoning and your statement

It is depravity that will put a person in hell Einstein is not in hell but Hitler is with Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and a host of paedophiles

Go back and read what you said about Voltaire, Voltaire was a deist. 

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Frank Merton
6 hours ago, Horta said:

I don't see why existence has to have  a point Frank? It might not.

There are other possibilities apart from the ideas of religion and the soul etc. that could allow for a type of free will. Neuroscientists are open to, and exploring some of them at least intellectually, if not experimentally as yet. We don't know how consciousness works yet, when we do we'll probably understand a lot more about this. Our current understanding of nature doesn't really allow for libertarian free will, but it is possible that our current understanding is either wrong, it certainly is incomplete.

 

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Frank Merton

If they can't fix this posting system we should all go elsewhere.

1 minute ago, Frank Merton said:

 

I am quoted as saying something I didn't say, although I agree with it.  Existence does not have to have a purpose, and probably doesn;t, nor do our own lives have purposes, and it is futile to try to give them one.  This is just ego and leads only to frustration and unhappiness.

I do think free will is possible, but not normal.  Usually we are tossed there and there by our wishes and chemicals and by random events.  It takes mindful, considered thought to make a true free-will decision.  Even then we can't "know" its really free will, but this is the closest we can come.

 

 

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Frank Merton

We have consciousness (the awareness or our personal existence) and we have sentience (the illusions we are surrounded with of vision, sounds, odors, pains, itches, pressures, and emotions (which are part of sentient existence and part of the same brain systems).  Where they come from are both unknown.  We can associate certain brain chemicals and brain regions with certain of these, but this is association -- what "blue" is can only be something invented by our brains that our minds appreciate.  These are what neurologists call "the hard questions."  We are conscious, many animals are sentient.  They both obviously evolved although we are at a loss at this point to trace it.

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Frank Merton

Freedom should not be denied because some religious group has a teaching against it.  The only grounds for restricting freedom should be society's need.

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aquatus1

Multiple genders have always existed.  Transgenders have always existed.  Homosexuality has always existed.  That you only found out about it just now won't change that.  The world has kept moving forwards regardless, and in many, many ways, it is much, much better than in used to be, now that morality is more concerned with "live and let live", as opposed to "we will tell you how to live".

The only thing you have lost is the ability to publicly condemn these things without fear of opposition.  But frankly, that was never really your right to begin with.  It was nothing more than a privilege claimed through brutality.

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XenoFish

The more I read from the religious side of the fence the more faith I lose in humanity.

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Frank Merton
16 hours ago, Alan McDougall said:

 

That is not correct he said "Don't tell God what to do"

Einstein vacillated between that of an outright atheist to a deist, he said if he believed in a God It would be the God of the Dutch philosopher Spinoza

Thanks for the "correction." You are the sort that would post such corrections -- is that really different from the quote as I have it?  It is quoted various ways in various sources.  

I think Einstein was a genteel atheist, and didn't want to argue religion, and used "God" as a metaphor.  

For the life of me I have never understood Spinoza -- oh I know his teaching well enough but it makes no sense logically -- it's a sort-of god who doesn't really exist but is useful for ethical thinking.  I can see where Einstein might resort to something of that sort to avoid being said to be an outright atheist, given his temperament and the times he was living in.

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Frank Merton
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The more I read from the religious side of the fence the more faith I lose in humanity.

Just lose faith in religion.

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XenoFish
Just now, Frank Merton said:

Just lose faith in religion.

Why not just lose faith in everything?

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Alan McDougall
1 hour ago, Frank Merton said:

Thanks for the "correction." You are the sort that would post such corrections -- is that really different from the quote as I have it?  It is quoted various ways in various sources.  

I think Einstein was a genteel atheist, and didn't want to argue religion, and used "God" as a metaphor.  

For the life of me I have never understood Spinoza -- oh I know his teaching well enough but it makes no sense logically -- it's a sort-of god who doesn't really exist but is useful for ethical thinking.  I can see where Einstein might resort to something of that sort to avoid being said to be an outright atheist, given his temperament and the times he was living in.

 

http://www.bethinking.org/god/did-einstein-believe-in-god

Einstein qouted the below

“Behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force is my religion. To that extent, I am in point of fact, religious.”[8]

“Every scientist becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that of men.”[9]

“Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe – a spirit vastly superior to that of man.”[10]

“The divine reveals itself in the physical world.”[11]

“My God created laws… His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking but by immutable laws.”[12]

“I want to know how God created this world. I want to know his thoughts.”[13]

“What I am really interested in knowing is whether God could have created the world in a different way.”[14]

“This firm belief in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God.”[15]

“My religiosity consists of a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit, …That superior reasoning power forms my idea of God.”

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Mr Walker
On 11/07/2016 at 1:41 PM, Frank Merton said:

I too have reasons to think that there is an afterlife, however, there is no way to show any mechanism for how this works nor any unbiased way to test the various claims.  Therefore it is just speculation.  I have no problem with this sort of thing so long as it is clearly labeled as speculation and not as a teaching.  I have to say though that I, and a lot of others, have little patience with people who have claims that have no objective basis and still people get in a huff if they are ridiculed or otherwise questioned.

It sounds like your experiences are different to habitats. His convinced him of their objective and universal  reality  but yours did not so convince you.   in this you are both correct  if an experience is real/valid enough to convince you then it is worthy of being described to others as a form of reality or example.  If it does not convince even you, then it is not worthy to be used as an example  to convince another. 

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Frank Merton
2 hours ago, Alan McDougall said:

http://www.bethinking.org/god/did-einstein-believe-in-god

Einstein qouted the below

“Behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force is my religion. To that extent, I am in point of fact, religious.”[8]

“Every scientist becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that of men.”[9]

“Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe – a spirit vastly superior to that of man.”[10]

“The divine reveals itself in the physical world.”[11]

“My God created laws… His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking but by immutable laws.”[12]

“I want to know how God created this world. I want to know his thoughts.”[13]

“What I am really interested in knowing is whether God could have created the world in a different way.”[14]

“This firm belief in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God.”[15]

“My religiosity consists of a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit, …That superior reasoning power forms my idea of God.”

 

Typical of people like you who don't understand how to think clearly -- and unconvincing as to what I said about him.  I can be described as very spiritual too but am still an atheist.  Such "cherry picked" proof texts achieve nothing except show your ability to cut and past from web sites you like.  If you did some research you could find places where he is not quite so compliant with your slant.

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Frank Merton
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Why not just lose faith in everything?

Faith is not a virtue but a vice.  It involves believing in things when there is not enough evidence to believe in it.  It is the excuse people who want to believe certain things that are not supportable rationally or scientifically use to continue (without intellectual honesty and with a great deal of intellectual laziness) rely on. 

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Mr Walker
On 12/07/2016 at 10:48 AM, Frank Merton said:

It sounds as though you think you are a special person being given special secrets from the universe.  I would be careful about such thinking.

All of us are special and all of us receive  special secrets from the universe. (at least that is what i believe given my own experiences i life   )

Which is more illogical; to deny a reality just because it doesn't fit into what you believe is possible, or to accept as real something you experience and can validate personally, yet is unique to yourself and cannot be proven or demonstrated to another ?

  I've been followed by a great white shark while water skiing. (in a scene reminiscent of jaws and in waters not far from where that was filmed)

 I cant prove that to anyone else and the witnesses to it are now dead,but i know it happened. More importantly i know how my mind responded and worked  and adjusted to the reality .  Every experience we have causes anyone who thinks consciously, and with self awareness, to be given secret and unique understandings about themselves and their relationship to the universe. 

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Mr Walker
On 16/07/2016 at 11:12 AM, Frank Merton said:

As a matter of fact, the very existence of atheists is evidence there is no God -- at least not an infinite one, since the very presence of such a being in the universe would be so overwhelming its existence could not possibly be doubted.

That presupposes a certain nature to god(s) and also to the way a self aware being will connect to, and relate with, such a being.

 Why is it hard to comprehend that a god may indeed, by its nature, require a LACK of knowledge to establish a working relationship with a human being? ie that FAITH, not knowledge, is the normal basis for connection between a human and a god. (probably because belief/faith is a much more powerful driver/motivator in human beings than knowledge is)

In a sense, because i KNOW god as a physical being, i cannot have a belief /faith based relationship with god. Because of this God cannot compel or make me  act or think in any way. My wife on the other hand has an absolute faith based relationship and is much more amenable to the power and instructions of god than i will ever be.   I listen to god and weigh his advice and thoughts but am free to disagree with him  She acts completely in accord with the word of god from scripture or teachings,  because her connection ito god is based on faith and inner belief.   You can rationally argue with a real being, even  a god, but you can't argue with a belief construct held strongly in your own mind.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Alan McDougall

 

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Horta
On 7/20/2016 at 1:40 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Sure, if we look at it that way. I like to think my creative mind, (in which I think everyone has) has was to be free and to be the free will to deal with it. But, I get what MC and Xeno is talking about. I have found, by experience by those who adhere strongly to a belief, that I'm not suppose to have a certain point of view, not even if it has nothing to do with them. If I'm not 'thinking', and behaving like they think I should according to their belief, I am wrong, and shouldn't have the free will to do, just obey their ****ing dogma! 

Yes, free will seems to be a forbidden taboo, well according to my observations of some obsessive believers. <_< 

So, the way I see it, if one can accept and understand they are able to think opposite of it and feel comfortable about it, then they are free. :yes: 

Yes, there are many different understandings of what "free will" is to begin with and debates are often confused this way. The mind is certainly creative (that religion exists demonstrates this) and no one (usually) forces you to think a certain way. Yet in a different sense, not saying it has to be so, but something to ponder...

People are the result of billions of years of cosmic, chemical and biological evolution, where they inherit their genetic makeup from their parents, which gives them their own particular nervous system made of matter that works according to the principles of physics and chemistry, which also gives them their proclivities and predispositions, and they also arrive in an environment they have no say in which forms their early neural pathways. None of this of their own choosing. Free will so far?

People think they have freedom of choice (they certainly are free to choose), but the choice itself is probably the only possible one that was ever going to be made at that point, regardless of the illusion they could have made another. It has little to do with "free will", every step of this procedure is the result of cause and effect dictated by physics and chemistry, not some little homunculus living in people's heads. The little homunculus itself is an illusion generated in the brain, by mundane physical interactions.

People also don't make decisions the way they think they do. The brain is always interpreting stimuli and generating thoughts, decisions are made in unconscious areas of the brain before people are aware of them, then they wrongly think they have made a "conscious decision". Experiments are demonstrating this, no experiments have really demonstrated the opposite. At times the brain dispenses with the "conscious" part altogether, when necessary. When you lift something hot for example, and react before there is any conscious awareness of it, let alone decision.

So if people are formed by processes they have no control of, into an environment not of their choosing, with the brain that runs on physical processes they have no control of, and choices are formed unconsciously first...where is free will? How is a such physical system able to make choices that are not 100% dictated by physics, cause and effect? 

Not saying it can't be, but how?

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Rlyeh
2 hours ago, Alan McDougall said:

 

For someone who follows no dogma you sure like mindlessly regurgitating Christian propaganda.

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Frank Merton

It is a long established Christian teaching that it is acceptable to lie about history and about who you really are in order to win souls.

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