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Is religion about to die out?

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Elsupremo
4 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Habitat: 

You have to look at things on balance, you may imagine a utopia where organized religion never existed, in reality you might have had something much worse. after all, Stalin shut down the church, and the paradise you anticipate did not happen.

In some sense, I can see your point. In another, I'm not so dead set that it's all that great be it under one religious rule or total Atheist rule. I do feel, that secular rule, with the freedom of practicing subjectively religion or no religion, tends for me to see that is more in a paradise outlook, then one rule governments and it's people. I feel that Atheism as a sole forced outlook didn't work out as I see Catholicism, Islam, and the sort in the areas where they are the sole legal belief and regime, they either failed, or show how they fail now. 

Frankly, we are all lucky, to believe or not believe without ramifications.

Elsupremo:

Now through meditation we come to realize that the sun is not a ball of fire but a light skinned colored girl with a huge Afro dressed in a long white robe holding a lantern whose light is the light of the sun. Now upon further investigation through meditation again, we discover the light of the sun that is actually coming from her lamp is her inside her own lantern holding another lantern. And the light that lantern, well you get the picture. So Liberty should be holding a lantern not a torch.  

I'm not knocking meditation, and I do it from time to time. And I feel, it helps me. Using it to prove things in the objective sense, that I don't see as the common sense thing to do. Are you saying that society came to it's conclusions of things by meditating? Wasn't it actually scientific and logical thinking and actual investigating and learning that gave society that knowledge? 

Frank Merton: 

Alcoholics do not like non-drinkers for defensive reasons.  They want the excuse that everybody does it.

And there happens to be those, who cannot stand the taste of beer,........................ but is a lover of various alcoholic beverages though. ;) Frankly, the remark about not guzzling beer is frowned upon, I find with distaste and insensitive like I found the commercial on cheese, having a town react negatively to a prospective politician who claimed he hates cheese. I do love most cheeses myself, ( well except blue cheese ) so that wouldn't be me. But as someone who has some issues with eating and being forced to eat some things, I will get very <_< toward those who think that they can look down on someone who cannot eat or drink what they do. 

Maybe, this might be a good point to make, since it seems that there is negative ramifications to still pushing those to do things, believe in the most point of what this thread is about, and not allowing freedom to believe or something else you want and still be respected for it. Kind of like one customer said to me about not wanting Oprah telling her what to read, when talking about the Oprah book suggestions. 

 

I have often wondered about the Celts. They're so mysterious. I think I might like them, they are so not British. I was once having a conversation with a Druid in a bar in Sausolito, a big white guy who somehow reminded me of Santa, we were good until he mentioned something about leprechauns. That's when things made an extreme left turn. I remarked, because I was an idiot in those days, "How could a grown man believe in leprechauns" what did I say that for? He remarked quite angrily, "Be fore the night is over, you are going to believe in leprechauns to." He finished his drink and stormed out of the bar. Later that night while in bed, I about to doze off when I could a feel the vibration of a gentle tapping on my pillow which reminded me of a mouse crawling on my pillow, just as I was about to turn my head an look, I could feel it running towards my head and before I knew it POW. Something hit my jaw so hard I was temporarily stunned, then as my head hit the pillow I could hear little feet scampering away. Being knocked out by a leprechaun. God, have I had a rich life!

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Frank Merton
10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

For your perusal: there is an interesting and odd quality/ element to implicit memory ( in particular; the area of the brain that is fully concious/ aware; in other words, it plays a part in belief formation) memories create mental models, these mental models can show up as feelings in our bodies, emotions or perceptual biases in our conscious awareness. As the neuropsych my friend sees explained to me, we do not know how biased we are to the past, oh we tend to argue ( me too) passionately that our beliefs and reactions are based in sound present good judgment or faith etc. etc. and if you have any experience with Alzheimer's you can see this aspect of the human mind clearly. Faith is similar for ex: your last quote is an implicit memory this is one way it shows up " look you can worship however you like, but you have to stop being selfish, materialistic, and destructive." This is a powerful belief for you and it shows itself in many of your posts. So you are not acting on "faith" you are acting on implicit memory. Just a fun add too. 

You've been away a little while; missed you.

What your psych friend tells you is no doubt accurate and based on lots of studies.  What I draw from that, though, is that our opinions are not necessarily so based, but only probably so based if we do not go about the business mindfully, aware that this can happen, and as part of the mindful consideration of an issue, we are aware that past experience strongly influences our approaches.  To the extent these past experiences are valid, this is to the good, and that usually is the case -- especially if mindful consideration has long been our practice -- but the process also helps us avoid the trap of being so controlled by past opinions (and, hopefully not, beliefs).

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Frank Merton

I discourage the consumption of alcohol -- any alcohol -- on the basis that there is an established association between its consumption and a variety of cancers, as well as other problems like cirrhosis.  I figure if that is the case the best course, especially here where (in spite of the wine industry's obfuscation of the resveratrol issue), is abstinence.  I have the same view of fructose loaded soft drinks and fruit juices, and all sorts of other unhealthy things.

I also think freedom is important, and the issue is not something where I would call for banning it (indeed I would vote against such measures), nor would I even disparage it when others imbibe.  It goes without comment from me (we must assume they are making an informed choice).

Alcoholism and the social and violence problems associated with it are another issue, and I do sometimes insert encouragements for moderation when I see someone plainly getting drunk.  Of course my words often get rejected, and I may even lose a friend, but there comes a time when someone who has the ability to do whatever is possible to prevent harm has a moral obligation to do so.  (Usually I don't actually say anything but instead resort to various sorts of redirection away from the bar).

This is a balancing act (between doing and saying nothing and active intervention to prevent harm).  This sort of dilemma arises all the time in all sorts of contexts, and we each have to try to think through what is the right course using objective reasoning, and then act accordingly, and not be critical if someone else reaches a different conclusion.

 

 

 

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psyche101
9 hours ago, Elsupremo said:

Well God plays games, why can't I?

I am not sure he does, he gambles is that quite the same thing?

goddice.jpg

Quote

 

As a matter of factoid, reminds me of a dream I had about Brainiac, who was a villain in the old Superman Comics. Now if you are fan of Superman comics from the 60s when I was a kid you remember that the android Brainiac shrunk an entire city down to put it in a bottle. Major hint people. Anyway, in my dream I wake up on an odd plan of existence where Braniac greeted me with the question, "What's it like being human? I was getting ready to tell the truth as I am know to do, being stupid as I am, but I stopped and for the first time in my life I felt a benevolent hatred for another life form or maybe it was jealousy that Braniac had not experienced how ridiculous humans are and I hated him for it, so I lied and said barely able to keep the smile of my face, "Not bad". I woke up immediately laughing my butt off saying, "Poor, poor Braniac soon he will be able to appreciate the greatest cosmic joke of all time and I will have an enemy for eternity.image.jpeg

 

 

Any chance you have Wonder Woman's number? 

Edited by psyche101
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psyche101
3 hours ago, Elsupremo said:

I have often wondered about the Celts. They're so mysterious. I think I might like them, they are so not British. I was once having a conversation with a Druid in a bar in Sausolito, a big white guy who somehow reminded me of Santa, we were good until he mentioned something about leprechauns. That's when things made an extreme left turn. I remarked, because I was an idiot in those days, "How could a grown man believe in leprechauns" what did I say that for? He remarked quite angrily, "Be fore the night is over, you are going to believe in leprechauns to." He finished his drink and stormed out of the bar. Later that night while in bed, I about to doze off when I could a feel the vibration of a gentle tapping on my pillow which reminded me of a mouse crawling on my pillow, just as I was about to turn my head an look, I could feel it running towards my head and before I knew it POW. Something hit my jaw so hard I was temporarily stunned, then as my head hit the pillow I could hear little feet scampering away. Being knocked out by a leprechaun. God, have I had a rich life!

 


Where the HELL is that bar????? Whatever they serve, I want one. On my bucketlist........

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Frank Merton

There are several distinct kinds of Brit.  One must be patient and ascertain which type you are dealing with before committing yourself.  

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Sherapy
3 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

You've been away a little while; missed you.

What your psych friend tells you is no doubt accurate and based on lots of studies.  What I draw from that, though, is that our opinions are not necessarily so based, but only probably so based if we do not go about the business mindfully, aware that this can happen, and as part of the mindful consideration of an issue, we are aware that past experience strongly influences our approaches.  To the extent these past experiences are valid, this is to the good, and that usually is the case -- especially if mindful consideration has long been our practice -- but the process also helps us avoid the trap of being so controlled by past opinions (and, hopefully not, beliefs).

Awww, I missed you too Frank, and as usual you make an excellent point. Thankyou for adding that in it does make a difference if one is aware of how their brain works and accounts for it, 

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Sherapy
3 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

I discourage the consumption of alcohol -- any alcohol -- on the basis that there is an established association between its consumption and a variety of cancers, as well as other problems like cirrhosis.  I figure if that is the case the best course, especially here where (in spite of the wine industry's obfuscation of the resveratrol issue), is abstinence.  I have the same view of fructose loaded soft drinks and fruit juices, and all sorts of other unhealthy things.

I also think freedom is important, and the issue is not something where I would call for banning it (indeed I would vote against such measures), nor would I even disparage it when others imbibe.  It goes without comment from me (we must assume they are making an informed choice).

Alcoholism and the social and violence problems associated with it are another issue, and I do sometimes insert encouragements for moderation when I see someone plainly getting drunk.  Of course my words often get rejected, and I may even lose a friend, but there comes a time when someone who has the ability to do whatever is possible to prevent harm has a moral obligation to do so.  (Usually I don't actually say anything but instead resort to various sorts of redirection away from the bar).

This is a balancing act (between doing and saying nothing and active intervention to prevent harm).  This sort of dilemma arises all the time in all sorts of contexts, and we each have to try to think through what is the right course using objective reasoning, and then act accordingly, and not be critical if someone else reaches a different conclusion.

 

 

 

And alcohol can be the contributing factor in vascular dementia, especially over many years of chronic drinking. As you I avoid it too. 

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Stubbly_Dooright

Elsurpremo: 

20 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Habitat: 

You have to look at things on balance, you may imagine a utopia where organized religion never existed, in reality you might have had something much worse. after all, Stalin shut down the church, and the paradise you anticipate did not happen.

In some sense, I can see your point. In another, I'm not so dead set that it's all that great be it under one religious rule or total Atheist rule. I do feel, that secular rule, with the freedom of practicing subjectively religion or no religion, tends for me to see that is more in a paradise outlook, then one rule governments and it's people. I feel that Atheism as a sole forced outlook didn't work out as I see Catholicism, Islam, and the sort in the areas where they are the sole legal belief and regime, they either failed, or show how they fail now. 

Frankly, we are all lucky, to believe or not believe without ramifications.

Elsupremo:

Now through meditation we come to realize that the sun is not a ball of fire but a light skinned colored girl with a huge Afro dressed in a long white robe holding a lantern whose light is the light of the sun. Now upon further investigation through meditation again, we discover the light of the sun that is actually coming from her lamp is her inside her own lantern holding another lantern. And the light that lantern, well you get the picture. So Liberty should be holding a lantern not a torch.  

I'm not knocking meditation, and I do it from time to time. And I feel, it helps me. Using it to prove things in the objective sense, that I don't see as the common sense thing to do. Are you saying that society came to it's conclusions of things by meditating? Wasn't it actually scientific and logical thinking and actual investigating and learning that gave society that knowledge? 

Frank Merton: 

Alcoholics do not like non-drinkers for defensive reasons.  They want the excuse that everybody does it.

And there happens to be those, who cannot stand the taste of beer,........................ but is a lover of various alcoholic beverages though. ;) Frankly, the remark about not guzzling beer is frowned upon, I find with distaste and insensitive like I found the commercial on cheese, having a town react negatively to a prospective politician who claimed he hates cheese. I do love most cheeses myself, ( well except blue cheese ) so that wouldn't be me. But as someone who has some issues with eating and being forced to eat some things, I will get very <_< toward those who think that they can look down on someone who cannot eat or drink what they do. 

Maybe, this might be a good point to make, since it seems that there is negative ramifications to still pushing those to do things, believe in the most point of what this thread is about, and not allowing freedom to believe or something else you want and still be respected for it. Kind of like one customer said to me about not wanting Oprah telling her what to read, when talking about the Oprah book suggestions. 

 

I have often wondered about the Celts. They're so mysterious. I think I might like them, they are so not British. I was once having a conversation with a Druid in a bar in Sausolito, a big white guy who somehow reminded me of Santa, we were good until he mentioned something about leprechauns. That's when things made an extreme left turn. I remarked, because I was an idiot in those days, "How could a grown man believe in leprechauns" what did I say that for? He remarked quite angrily, "Be fore the night is over, you are going to believe in leprechauns to." He finished his drink and stormed out of the bar. Later that night while in bed, I about to doze off when I could a feel the vibration of a gentle tapping on my pillow which reminded me of a mouse crawling on my pillow, just as I was about to turn my head an look, I could feel it running towards my head and before I knew it POW. Something hit my jaw so hard I was temporarily stunned, then as my head hit the pillow I could hear little feet scampering away. Being knocked out by a leprechaun. God, have I had a rich life!

:blink:

 

 

:unsure: 

 

 

:unsure2: 

 

 

I'm sorry, what does your post here have anything to do with mine that you replied to? And I really tried to see a commonality to it, but I couldn't. Leprechauns were mentioned before, but in another thread!

I believe I asked, how is it that meditation, a subjective activity in essence, get the results done by an objective activity? How does your personal meditation get you the understanding of the results that comes by universal education and science? If you have dreams about Leprechauns, bully for you. ( and that's despite the fact that the other thread was showing how a topic like Leprechauns, could be disproved yet believed. :no: ) 

Sorry, Elsupremo, I don't get your post. :w00t: 

Frank Merton: 

You've been away a little while; missed you.

What your psych friend tells you is no doubt accurate and based on lots of studies.  What I draw from that, though, is that our opinions are not necessarily so based, but only probably so based if we do not go about the business mindfully, aware that this can happen, and as part of the mindful consideration of an issue, we are aware that past experience strongly influences our approaches.  To the extent these past experiences are valid, this is to the good, and that usually is the case -- especially if mindful consideration has long been our practice -- but the process also helps us avoid the trap of being so controlled by past opinions (and, hopefully not, beliefs).

I like this, ( and what Sheri wrote to another poster as well ) And I think common sense plays a very big part in dividing and putting a priority of how we perceive ourselves and our world so we act accordingly. I am a full believer in understanding your past. Positive and negative, if understood, it can make us and it can in a positive way. 

The memory, can be so tenuous too, and I see Sheri's point where it concerns Alheimer's and using my example of me in an accident in the past. I often wonder about my memory from that point on. Even though I may have completely healed from that accident, there are still extreme gaps in my memory from that night, and my memory feels like it has been definitely affected since then. I wonder of what I do remember. But, I try to put a common sense spin on it, and concentrate on it and see how it affects my environment around me and how it affects me. Then I can put the pieces together, with my mind helping myself later in filling the gaps in later. ( if that makes sense )

If I can understand this, from you and Sheri are describing, thinking and concentration of how memories and present experiences and how they fit into the scheme of things is probably best. If I'm am getting this, and seeing it in how I perceive life and society, there should always be an understanding of others, more of yourself, and that would fit for a better participation in communication and teamwork. If I fit this into the theme of this thread, as more as we learn, educate ourselves, and such, instead of depending on beliefs for our guidance, the belief depends on us for it's guidance. 

Frank Merton: 

I discourage the consumption of alcohol -- any alcohol -- on the basis that there is an established association between its consumption and a variety of cancers, as well as other problems like cirrhosis.  I figure if that is the case the best course, especially here where (in spite of the wine industry's obfuscation of the resveratrol issue), is abstinence.  I have the same view of fructose loaded soft drinks and fruit juices, and all sorts of other unhealthy things.

I also think freedom is important, and the issue is not something where I would call for banning it (indeed I would vote against such measures), nor would I even disparage it when others imbibe.  It goes without comment from me (we must assume they are making an informed choice).

Alcoholism and the social and violence problems associated with it are another issue, and I do sometimes insert encouragements for moderation when I see someone plainly getting drunk.  Of course my words often get rejected, and I may even lose a friend, but there comes a time when someone who has the ability to do whatever is possible to prevent harm has a moral obligation to do so.  (Usually I don't actually say anything but instead resort to various sorts of redirection away from the bar).

This is a balancing act (between doing and saying nothing and active intervention to prevent harm).  This sort of dilemma arises all the time in all sorts of contexts, and we each have to try to think through what is the right course using objective reasoning, and then act accordingly, and not be critical if someone else reaches a different conclusion.

Now this is a post that would be a great way of showing it answers mine that was linked to an answer about ........leprechauns. :o    :blink:   

Anyhow, I have felt that that is why there is an age limit, to imbibing various drinks and such, because it takes an adult's experience common sense to use it moderately. ( well, yeah, it doesn't work in many cases, I know. ;) ) And when dealing with the lack of freedom of it, well I always have felt that the 'prohibition' here in the earlier 20th century really did not work out. ;) 

Anyhow, I agree with you, and feel that one must moderate with their 'vices' ( unless it's book reading, than go crazy! ) or stay away from it for your own good. 

Sheri: 

And alcohol can be the contributing factor in vascular dementia, especially over many years of chronic drinking. As you I avoid it too. 

As I have felt with Frank's post, I think you made some really good points. 

.............. as to avoiding it............................................ I fail.................................. but I ....................don't ..............mind.   :w00t: .................................. :blush: ..................................................... 

................................. but I use it in moderation!!!!!  I do, I swear I do!!! ...........................................

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Elsupremo
14 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I am not sure he does, he gambles is that quite the same thing?

goddice.jpg

 

 

Any chance you have Wonder Woman's number? 

No, but she lives in San Francisco. By the time you see her blinding light, you're buttocks is toast.

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Forever Cursed

Is religion about to die out ?  Some of histories bloodiest battles have been over religion ..... and based upon current news reports religion seems to be doing just fine ....  once we have world peace we will see if man needs God as much as he does now ... but until then there is no shortage of heathens. :o

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Elsupremo

God is the war monger. I know people want to think of God as a sissy Jesus, but when you consider how God deals with mankind in the fictional battle of Armegidan, where instead of instantly changing our hearts to righteousness, God prefers to instantly annihilate us. Now all these things will be done to mankind for the sake of the chosen, the Isrealites. Can a brother get a brake? God is the one, according to the scriptures, that keeps men divided. Ever since the Tower of Babel, where God decided we were getting a little bit too smart and scattered us against each other. God is the one who keeps us divided. All that being said, there is no God but God. What can we do but complain.

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back to earth

Well, I railed about it on these threads for a while .

'Certain people' here tried to discredit it . But it is all coming out .    I mean, we knew about the sex abuse here in  RC religion.   But some here defended this guy .... and I got very p***ed off about that .

Well, they seem to have pulled their heads in , and I was right all along .

Cardinal George Pell - the Aussie one that just escaped and is hiding in the Vatican  ( the one that the term 'Pellophile' * came from ) may well have gone from Pellophile to pedophile .... as I said , and as I was disabused for . 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-27/victoria-police-investigating-george-pell-over-abuse-complaints/7664674

people are popping up all over the place with various witness testimony about it.

 

And on another note , where I was also disabused  and accused of making things up about our 'wonderful' country of Australia, and 'someone' was trying to justify our practice of locking up children in detention camps behind razor wire, now we find out that  children in detention are subject to Guantanamo bay type torture practices ! 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2016/jul/26/northern-territory-juvenile-detention-reaction-royal-commission-footage-four-corners-tear-gas-restraint-live

 

And the person / people here that opposed me on this declared they were very 'religious'  ... the whole thing is so pathetically hypocritical and ... yes, downright evil ....!  .... IMO . 

 

 

* Pellophile - one who, although may not have actually committed child sex abuse, has helped to cover it up )

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psyche101
6 hours ago, Elsupremo said:

No, but she lives in San Francisco. By the time you see her blinding light, you're buttocks is toast.

I'll take the risk. PM me that number. 

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psyche101
2 hours ago, Elsupremo said:

God is the war monger. I know people want to think of God as a sissy Jesus, but when you consider how God deals with mankind in the fictional battle of Armegidan, where instead of instantly changing our hearts to righteousness, God prefers to instantly annihilate us. Now all these things will be done to mankind for the sake of the chosen, the Isrealites. Can a brother get a brake? God is the one, according to the scriptures, that keeps men divided. Ever since the Tower of Babel, where God decided we were getting a little bit too smart and scattered us against each other. God is the one who keeps us divided. All that being said, there is no God but God. What can we do but complain.

 

You didn't hear how William Lane Craig justifies that?

All the kiddies God kills are heathens but they get to go to Heaven and have a glorious afterlife, so it all works out in the end...........

Good thing religion is so heavily based in morals hey.....................

 

LINK

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Habitat
1 hour ago, back to earth said:

Well, I railed about it on these threads for a while .

'Certain people' here tried to discredit it . But it is all coming out .    I mean, we knew about the sex abuse here in  RC religion.   But some here defended this guy .... and I got very p***ed off about that .

Well, they seem to have pulled their heads in , and I was right all along .

Cardinal George Pell - the Aussie one that just escaped and is hiding in the Vatican  ( the one that the term 'Pellophile' * came from ) may well have gone from Pellophile to pedophile .... as I said , and as I was disabused for . 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-27/victoria-police-investigating-george-pell-over-abuse-complaints/7664674

people are popping up all over the place with various witness testimony about it.

 

And on another note , where I was also disabused  and accused of making things up about our 'wonderful' country of Australia, and 'someone' was trying to justify our practice of locking up children in detention camps behind razor wire, now we find out that  children in detention are subject to Guantanamo bay type torture practices ! 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2016/jul/26/northern-territory-juvenile-detention-reaction-royal-commission-footage-four-corners-tear-gas-restraint-live

 

And the person / people here that opposed me on this declared they were very 'religious'  ... the whole thing is so pathetically hypocritical and ... yes, downright evil ....!  .... IMO . 

 

 

* Pellophile - one who, although may not have actually committed child sex abuse, has helped to cover it up )

If recent reports are to be believed, child sex abuse was rampant in the old C of E as well, but the organization was somewhat more adept at concealing it than the "cattle ticks". The reality of it seems to be that child sex abuse is everywhere when inclination and opportunity intersect.

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Frank Merton

Attitudes about pedophilia are similar to attitudes about slavery -- in the last hundred years or so the evils of both have come to be recognized where they weren't so much before (if I recall right Poe married a 14 year-old niece and no one thought much of it).

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back to earth
6 hours ago, Habitat said:

If recent reports are to be believed, child sex abuse was rampant in the old C of E as well, but the organization was somewhat more adept at concealing it than the "cattle ticks". The reality of it seems to be that child sex abuse is everywhere when inclination and opportunity intersect.

Its about to split another Christian demon in nation  .....  denom ....  <splutter>  de nom in at ion  ... here apart . Cant remember which one .   

I can agree with what you wrote but the thing is IMO this is extra insidious  and supra evil... as the people say, the victims, I mean , and I can imagine, as a little tyke I too did the same , relied on the priests, trusted them more than anything -  I mean, they even superseded my own parents , according to them  - and , as a victim put it yesterday ' My God !  I would sit in that confessional  box  ..... ( and I know what that entails ... you fess up and the guy in the box lets the little kid off so he will not  burn in hell for eternity)  a... I was  terrified of him !   And then later he would ....  " 

Its a total breaking of spiritual and social hierarchical trust .   Thats why so many victims ended up failing socially and killing themselves.  

 

I mean , one can even say, well, such vulnerability might attract a pedo to get in and gain trust and access.  But the whole institution covered it up ... and , get this , Pell was the one responsible for setting u the churches investigation and remedy into sex abuse !  Even after the previous court case where a victim witness accused him directly,  and the judge didnt rule it false testimony ... nor rule Pell's denial as false testimony , so stalemate .  But then he ran at the last minute and is hiding out 'sick' at the vatican and cant be bought back

 

a LOT of people are p***ED about that, not just me .... the police investigation on him is very much active .... its a matter of time (or cover up)  .

 

 

 

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back to earth
5 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Attitudes about pedophilia are similar to attitudes about slavery -- in the last hundred years or so the evils of both have come to be recognized where they weren't so much before (if I recall right Poe married a 14 year-old niece and no one thought much of it).

went with friends and their little kids to 'Cony Island'   Luna Park , in Sydney last year - they still had a lot of the old  mid last century decor and slot machines  and   'funny' cartoon art on the walls ... drunks beating wives and such .... back then : "Oh ! ...  ha ha har  ... look at  that ! "

Now ; " Oh !  .....  my .... God .....   look at that  !  "  :wacko:

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Habitat
8 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

Its a total breaking of spiritual and social hierarchical trust .   Thats why so many victims ended up failing socially and killing themselves.  

 

 

 

 

I am unable to fully understand this phenomenon of suicides stemming from childhood abuse. I think it is at least partly the result of only the weak or vulnerable being those targeted, and then molested, weakening an already impaired capacity to cope in the world.

Edited by Habitat

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Frank Merton
2 hours ago, Habitat said:

I am unable to fully understand this phenomenon of suicides stemming from childhood abuse. I think it is at least partly the result of only the weak or vulnerable being those targeted, and then molested, weakening an already impaired capacity to cope in the world.

Yes. I would like to see some evidence, not just a claim.  Lots of us were abused as children in various ways, maybe all of us (child abuse has many forms, not just sexual), but suicide seems to have different origins (disease processes such as depression that seem to stem from chemical imbalances).

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Habitat

The term "predator" being used to describe paedophiles is quite apt, imo. And like all predators, they have an uncanny way of singling out the weakest, and least able to resist. It is possible these victims were set up to struggle in life even before they attracted the unwelcome attention of the offenders. None of which lessens the severity of the offence, though. But may explain the adverse downstream effects being seemingly so intractable.

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Elsupremo
11 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

Information on Job

"Edwin M. Good writes: "If we cannot say where Job originated, it is equally difficult to say when. Ezekiel referred to Job as an important person alongside Noah and Daniel (Ezek. 14:14-20). Moreover, tradition put him in the patriarchal period and made the book one of the oldest in the Bible. Modern scholars are skeptical of this claim to antiquity, but dates proposed range from the tenth to the third century B.C. The book itself is completely silent about its time, with no allusions to historical events or topical subjects (some take 12:17-19 as a depiction of the Exile). If we could be certain of the history of the Hebrew language or of the relations between one text and another, we could more confidently assign a date. Some affinities of Job 3 with Jer. 20:7-18, for example, do not allow certainty of which passage came first. Stylistic similarities between Job and Isaiah 40-55 have also been alleged. Those connections suggest a time either before the early sixth century B.C. (if Job is prior) or in the late sixth or early fifth century B.C. (if Job is later). Job 7:17-18 is almost surely a parody of Psalm 8, but no one can be sure when Psalm 8 was written. Job 3:4 is a parodistic allusion to Gen. 1:3, a creation account usually dated after the Exile in the sixth century B.C. Such evidence suggests but does not prove that Job was composed and completed after the Babylonian exile." "

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/job.html

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Yes. I would like to see some evidence, not just a claim.  Lots of us were abused as children in various ways, maybe all of us (child abuse has many forms, not just sexual), but suicide seems to have different origins (disease processes such as depression that seem to stem from chemical imbalances).

Here is an interesting form of child and parent abuse by God when telling Abraham to sacrifice his son as a burnt offering. God later told him. "Don't do that, I was just kidding."

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Davros of Skaro
17 hours ago, Habitat said:

*Snip*

 

Edited by kmt_sesh
Use quotes accurately.

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back to earth
14 hours ago, Habitat said:

I am unable to fully understand this phenomenon of suicides stemming from childhood abuse. I think it is at least partly the result of only the weak or vulnerable being those targeted, and then molested, weakening an already impaired capacity to cope in the world.

That is because you dont fully understand the dynamic involved .  Go back to the first part of the partial quote of my post you used : "  Its a total breaking of spiritual and social hierarchical trust  " ... that is very significant. 

Also my comment about the priest , in many RC families over ruling the parents - the church knows best. 

God > Priest > Father (Mother )  > children.   One of those stories was; kid was getting sexually molested by priest , he confides in his father and seeks help, father goes ballistic  and beats own kid to a pulp for 'saying bad things about the church', then kid kills himself. 

Of course the victim thing / dynamic is present , as it is in most crimes . A soft target is preferred , a bully or mugger will, often unconsciously, select the victim , due to a range of feelings and observed traits, their gate, body posture, language, even thoughts.

THis is well known and understood nowadays. 

I suppose you are 'unable to understand'   because you  dont seem to be able to comprehend that most children , by their nature are actually weak and vulnerable ....   your comment could be interpreted in a really bad way ,  as if you dont understand that,  and are somehow trying to shift some of the blame, even if it is a tiny bit, on to them . 

I hope not . And I hope you can clarify what you actually mean here . 

Of course children are weak and vulnerable  !     Thats why we ... well some of us .... are so outraged about these crimes.  

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