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Is religion about to die out?

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psyche101

Well look man I won't be arguing with you anyway about it. I'm not one to try and convince people otherwise or worry all that much about what you believe or don't believe. I don't get into afterlife debates because it doesn't matter to me. The way I look at it, you believe what you want to believe about whatever you may have experienced, that's you and you alone. Who am I to tell you otherwise, right? I put my pants leg on one leg a time just like you do. ;)

But really my comments were specifically directed at Psyche and his particular train of thoughts on the subject matter. The main subject matter is an old discussion between him and I, because we've had it before. So pay no attention to what I say and don't let my comments on the matter bother you. That's just me and the way I think. It doesn't mean I expect everyone else to do the same. To each his own, I say.

He is just trolling because he is upset about me posting a video that scientifically explains why there is no afterlife. I have banned him on my account over his bad behaviour.

As Shaun Carroll put it, he can even intimidate us with an equation as to why!!! :D

Everyday-Equation.jpg

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Gunn

"..... and it's the same truth with people in the real world, some people will believe in some things so blindly and nothing you can say can ever take that away from them......"

From where I stand, the irony of that is so stark, you have fallen into the exact trap you imagine others wallow in. But as I often point out, rabid atheists and religious "blind faith" fundamentalists have much in common, hardly surprising, as many have already done a stint as one, and switched to the other !

I'm not a atheist or a religious "blind faith" fundamentalist. I don't identify with such manmade labels, I'm just me.

Edited by Purifier
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psyche101

I'm not a atheist or a religious "blind faith" fundamentalist. I don't identify with such manmade labels, I'm just me.

I respect that! We do not all have to have "the answer" or even have it interest us. Those who do have such interests pave the roads we can all walk. Then we can move beyond "belief" into "knowing" at our own paces. Belief is a personal thing, when it remains that way, it is quite respectable.

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Habitat

I'm not a atheist or a religious "blind faith" fundamentalist. I don't identify with such manmade labels, I'm just me.

Fair enough mate, but if you start believing in Shaun the Sheep's equation, there is no way back ! (apparently) :tu:

Edited by Habitat

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Gunn

I really do not feel it is an outrageous proposal. Religion is declining and knowledge is becoming more freely available, it seems a well overdue inevitability to me. Science erodes religion and science is better distributed than it has ever been.

I honestly do not feel it must remain because a majority have felt that way for a long time. Most had no choice but to conform. And we have indoctrination. That puts religion in a limelight it does not deserve through emotional responses. There is much beyond ourselves, we just seem to reject natural explanations for anthropomorphised ones which I feel is a product of our development as we feel more comfortable being in control.

No, but I do see religion as being seen by all if not most as silly as I see it. 50 years ago, the majority believed in Adam and Eve over evolution. Atheists were akin to or worse than satanists. Gay people were an abomination of God. Times are changing and people will change with them.

I just simply canot explain it, it is indeed a true Unexplained Mystery. What I do notice is those scientists tend to gravitate toward medical fields, and more hardcore sciences such as physics have a great deal less faithful. WHilst that emotional response remains amongst some, they do not publish papers on these beliefs, nor do they entertain them from a serious perspective with tier work. Fringe Science tries to breach the divide with misinterpretation of Physics, but again, when it comes down to recognised serious papers, faith is nonexistent. If you go to a lecture on Cosmology of Physics, not one person in the room ever utter Goddidit or "maybe a creator could explain "X". We see equations and models, no pondering about God. In a serious world where things actually happen, God does not get a look in.

But they like the Heaven's Gate whackos, will become the minority. Westboro level minority I can see a time where people would indeed laugh at what we considered as history, and marvel at how long it managed to remain as a hypothesis when we normally supercede redundant hypotheses. I can see people laughing at once believing we came from an Adam and Eve, or that a creator "made the universe perfect in every way". It's laughable now, many just refuse to let go that security blanket of relgion and step out into the light.

I'd like to see it made redundant. I think it should be preserved as historical record, because I feel it was a very important part of our development, it just overstayed it's welcome by about 1500 years IMHO.

No, I do not think it is a pip dream at all. Yes, there will always be pocket, and they will not matter. They will be steamrolled over with discovery and knowledge. We still have people who believe in Unicorns, Fairies and Mermaids too, but look at how we view them today.

No I do not think it is wishful thinking at all. I feel relgion is an enemy of reason, and will be recognised as such within a generation or two. I feel relgion could easily be made redundant in even one generation with the right approach, but so many refuse to let go and move on that such a task would take more time due to those who refuse to budge. I can tell you right now that much of the Bible has been made redundant, yet some still hang onto those failed claims and now label them as metaphors. Religion has to rely on tradition and the faithful. It simply cannot compete with discovery. Adam and Eve have already proven that. That is how they went form being the Ultimate Grandparents to a metaphor themselves. Who would have believed that could happen 100 years ago? Who would believe gay people would be accepted by Churches? Same with God, he did not make the Universe, he did not let there be light, he did not even fulfill the claims of Adam and Eve. People have swallowed this BS for so long only because the Church directed it. With a huge multicultural world out there, relgion has to compete with real answers. Just like Adam and Eve, relgion itself will be reduced to no more than a chapter in history, John Lennon knew what he was on about.

I see it in my kids. They do not see religion how I did when I was brought up. Neither do their friends. And not though an atheist influence, but personal evaluation with as many resources as anyone else might have, as hard as that might be to believe.

All good points, Psyche. But I'm afraid you'll never convince me that religion will be reduced to a minority. I just can't see it. Because now we have in this day and age people who are twisting and turning scientific information into science fiction religions or some kind of new age cult following. From UFO cults to worshiping aliens\ancient aliens to Scientology.

No they're not dying out or being reduced to a minority, Psyche, there just changing their religions to roll with the the modern age and the rise in scientific discoveries. And the scary part is they're gaining followers. I just don't see it ever happening from my point view. Not when these type of new age religions are coming out of the woodwork and adapting to science.

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Mr Walker

Is religion about to die out? Growing wealth is causing belief in moralising gods to decline - and it could make it vanish entirely

Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism are moral religions

They may have emerged to help the rich elite control the general populous

But as affluence increases the need for this is decreasing, scientists argue

But the y did not arise, sociologically speaking, to control human beings. They are a response to the need of people for a structure and order, in beliefs as well as in all things physical. These give a sense of safety and security which cannot exist if your world is unknowable. If people surrender some individual control to a religious belief it is generally to benefit from the security and safety perceived by having known /familiar routines, structures and practices in place. it is not that giving a sacrifice to the sun god will cause a better harvest but that the sense of control and power invested in the sacrifice, mitigating the power of nature to destroy your harvest and thus your life, gives us some sense of order amidst the chaos of nature. .

It is argued that religions allowed the first civilizations to form, because they were the sociological glue which held otherwise diverse individuals, groups, clans, families, etc., together. They enabled and motivated the construction of the first great building works of mankind (and hence the complex social and economic organisation on a large scale, required for such building) because they motivated humans not just in a spiritual sense, but with a spirituality/religious belief tied to things like seasons, harvests, and hence food supply and prosperity.

Humans have an evolved psychological cognitive need for belief and belonging, order and stabilty, and hence religions will remain as long as humans remain human

Edited by Mr Walker

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eight bits

If there is any evidence that any revealed religion ever effectively controlled any "masses," then that would be a welcome aspect of the topic to discuss. How odd that a leading scholarly journal like The Daily Mail should have overlooked that aspect of the problem.

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psyche101

All good points, Psyche. But I'm afraid you'll never convince me that religion will be reduced to a minority. I just can't see it.

Cheers, I will just wait and watch ;)

Did you notice that the link sports a video which makes the claim that pew research results prove that people are becoming more secular?

It does seem to be supported:

LINK - U.S. Public Becoming Less Religious

An extensive new survey of more than 35,000 U.S. adults finds that the percentages who say they believe in God, pray daily and regularly go to church or other religious services all have declined modestly in recent years.

And science has become more user friendly of late with these fancy and impressive documentaries.

Because now we have in this day and age people who are twisting and turning scientific information into science fiction religions or some kind of new age cult following. From UFO cults to worshiping aliens\ancient aliens to Scientology.

Yes, but look at them People outright laugh at the small groups of desperates who join crazy things like UFO cults, and they are not policed in any way, not do they have the moral relgion claims to uphold, Raelism is a sex cult created to feed young people to the founder of the cult, he has been banned in several countries due to his liberal views on underage sex. Crationists have the largest following by far, but again, the majority laugh at them. And loudly.

No they're not dying out or being reduced to a minority, Psyche, there just changing their religions to roll with the the modern age and the rise in scientific discoveries. And the scary part is they're gaining followers. I just don't see it ever happening from my point view. Not when these type of new age religions are coming out of the woodwork and adapting to science.

I am afraid they are, Have you seen the Creationist debate between Bill Nye and Ken Ham? The result went like:

even-a-christian-website-poll-says-bill-nye-pummeled-ken-ham-in-the-creation-debate.jpg

Those people lie and misrepresent the information they have to come to a predetermined conclusion. That is where relgion fails. It is predetermined in a Universe that is chaotic. Ken Ham goes so far as to explain that according to him, and in order to reconcile with the Bible "Physics were different 6,000 years ago" I m,ean, who really is stupid enough to believe tripe like that?

And that my friend, is what will be the undoing of relgion, It;s overconfidence. Some recognise it and try to rationalise it as you have mentioned, but they fail. Look at any debate on the Net with Shaun Carroll or Richard Dawkins, Lawrence Krauss, they too are getting out there and battling the enemies of reason. I do see religion as having had it's day and now in it's twilight. You can only pull the wool over everyones eyes for so long.......

Not to try to convince you, but I see a direction moving that will rationalize religion back into the halls of Myth where it belongs with The Greek, Roman and all the other Gods we have created in our history. As long as relgion does not take hold as it did, and steer us into another dark age, but with real world people like Krauss and Caroll, people are going to find out what is really going on soon enough.

If you are interested, here is Ken Ham and Bill Nye - worth a watch to see how relgion fails as a real world explanation.

Edited by psyche101
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Grandpa Greenman

Pew research, sometimes I don't understand what their premise is in their research. What do they mean when they say moral religion. It like they mean people didn't have morals in prehistory. They had morals, they just didn't have writing. If you look modern tribal cultures they have moral structure in their culture. Moral structure can differ from culture to culture and change doesn't mean there is no moral structure. This study they did seems to me to be very ethnocentric as a lot of their studies are. :td:

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eight bits

GmG

Pew's OK. Don't shoot the bean counter. "Moralizing" as a category of religion is from here:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23030710-800-why-are-religions-so-judgemental-ask-evolution

Once Baumard defined what religions he has in mind, then we can go to Pew for estimates of how many adherents of those there are compared with how many there used to be.

Inevitably, it is easier to survey representative samples of people in some places than in others, and easier for an organization located in North America to survey English speakers, and if anybody else, then Spanish-speakers. That doesn't make Pew's work culpably "ethnocentric." Some emphasis on the United States (by name) is in its mission profile, which is the basis on which it gets its money.

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Doug1029

Religion about to die out? Really?

We've had religion since forever. Religion is very good at morphing into something new as times change. I doubt we'll ever be without it.

Doug

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third_eye

Organised Religion ... now that's a whole different sack of beans ...

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Grandpa Greenman

But they included Hinduism and it's offshoots, which have a different moral structure from the western religions. And the only thing they are comparing them to is Greek based polytheism. I think they are making assumptions on too small a base for what they are trying to say, IMO. I guess I am very much an outsider when it comes to mainstream religion. I am part of that so called 1% when it comes to religion. Modern Paganism and new age does a lot of looking at a wider picture when it comes to religion. You might say it cherry picks religion and history without shame, new age especially. It works in the way world music works. You go to a Pagan concert and bands are playing African drums, NA flutes, didgeridoos, etc... you put it all together and it sounds good. Religion is never going to actually die out, but it will change for better or worse. Hopefully for the better.

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Podo

Will religion die out? I surely hope so. I doubt it will be completely eradicated, but I hope I see its decline in my lifetime.

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Grandpa Greenman

Playing For Change. :wub:

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GoldenWolf

We have never had freedom from relgion like we do in the present either. There is a first time for everything, I am crossing my fingers. Let's hope we give up superstition and start recognising the real world for what it is.

I expect at some point in the future we will look back and religion and laugh at how we were so heavily influenced by such utter nonsense.

Humanity should feel shame.

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psyche101

Religion about to die out? Really?

We've had religion since forever. Religion is very good at morphing into something new as times change. I doubt we'll ever be without it.

Doug

Just because something "has always been" does not make it right, nor a protected species. We have never had the knowledge database we now do so freely available either. "About to" might be something of an exaggeration depending on your perspective, but times are a changing, and religion is being put into the light it deserves to be in - myth.

I find such defeatist attitudes somewhat annoying. We do not have to deny a better world because it's has never been that way before. There is always a first time for everything. Science has taken photos of Pluto, cured polio and built supercomputers that can calculate a billion inquiries a second. A return to superstition is only working backwards.

Edited by psyche101
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Gunn

Cheers, I will just wait and watch ;)

Did you notice that the link sports a video which makes the claim that pew research results prove that people are becoming more secular?

It does seem to be supported:

LINK - U.S. Public Becoming Less Religious

An extensive new survey of more than 35,000 U.S. adults finds that the percentages who say they believe in God, pray daily and regularly go to church or other religious services all have declined modestly in recent years.

And science has become more user friendly of late with these fancy and impressive documentaries.

Yes, but look at them People outright laugh at the small groups of desperates who join crazy things like UFO cults, and they are not policed in any way, not do they have the moral relgion claims to uphold, Raelism is a sex cult created to feed young people to the founder of the cult, he has been banned in several countries due to his liberal views on underage sex. Crationists have the largest following by far, but again, the majority laugh at them. And loudly.

I am afraid they are, Have you seen the Creationist debate between Bill Nye and Ken Ham? The result went like:

Those people lie and misrepresent the information they have to come to a predetermined conclusion. That is where relgion fails. It is predetermined in a Universe that is chaotic. Ken Ham goes so far as to explain that according to him, and in order to reconcile with the Bible "Physics were different 6,000 years ago" I m,ean, who really is stupid enough to believe tripe like that?

And that my friend, is what will be the undoing of relgion, It;s overconfidence. Some recognise it and try to rationalise it as you have mentioned, but they fail. Look at any debate on the Net with Shaun Carroll or Richard Dawkins, Lawrence Krauss, they too are getting out there and battling the enemies of reason. I do see religion as having had it's day and now in it's twilight. You can only pull the wool over everyones eyes for so long.......

Not to try to convince you, but I see a direction moving that will rationalize religion back into the halls of Myth where it belongs with The Greek, Roman and all the other Gods we have created in our history. As long as relgion does not take hold as it did, and steer us into another dark age, but with real world people like Krauss and Caroll, people are going to find out what is really going on soon enough.

If you are interested, here is Ken Ham and Bill Nye - worth a watch to see how relgion fails as a real world explanation.

Lol. Well I tell you what, Psyche. When you get into your late senior years and I see you're still arguing with many superstitious cult-like individuals about UFOs, aliens, ghosts and science fiction beliefs on websites like this one and you see more of it in the future, then there ever was now, you get back to me way into the future (lol, if I'm still alive at that time of course) on this particular subject and then tell me what you think. Because I'll be waiting and watching too. :tu:

Cheers my friend!

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Gunn

Just because something "has always been" does not make it right, nor a protected species. We have never had the knowledge database we now do so freely available either. "About to" might be something of an exaggeration depending on your perspective, but times are a changing, and religion is being put into the light it deserves to be in - myth.

I find such defeatist attitudes somewhat annoying. We do not have to deny a better world because it's has never been that way before. There is always a first time for everything. Science has taken photos of Pluto, cured polio and built supercomputers that can calculate a billion inquiries a second. A return to superstition is only working backwards.

I want to interject something here, but I'm not speaking for Doug when I say this....

It's not a defeatist attitude, Psyche, it's just generally knowing how people, especially groups of people, are in the world and the way people think. People are predictable. They tend to do the same ol' things time after time throughout history. Just like when - People kill one another and people save one another, people rape and pillage, people conquer one another, people form nations with governments, people marry one another, people have families and raise children, and they will always have beliefs in things no matter what is scientific fact or not scientific fact. It's just the way we as a human species are. It's just one of those things that is a will of human nature that's just there and you can't purge it from everybody's minds. But of course I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but then again...we shouldn't get our hopes up either. Because much like in the case of people murdering each other, I would love to see that completely stopped, but I know better, because that can only happen in perfect world.

Edited by Purifier
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rashid

Nope, they are not going anywhere anytime soon. There are things that science can't prove. And there are things that science is just proving 50 years ago but religious books have mentioned them like a thousand years ago. So I think religions are like way ahead of science.

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XenoFish

Nope, they are not going anywhere anytime soon. There are things that science can't prove. And there are things that science is just proving 50 years ago but religious books have mentioned them like a thousand years ago. So I think religions are like way ahead of science.

So does religion have a cure for cancer or maybe aids? Perhaps religion can get people to mars because of some mystical magical technology? Maybe religion can create world peace, create a powerful clean energy source? I guess people need to pray really really hard to fix the world. I'm sure 'god' will make everything just peachy.

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Habitat

So does religion have a cure for cancer or maybe aids? Wow ! Perhaps religion can get people to mars because of some mystical magical technology? Maybe religion can create world peace, create a powerful clean energy source? I guess people need to pray really really hard to fix the world. I'm sure 'god' will make everything just peachy.

Getting people to Mars is some kind of priority matter, in your mind ? You have fallen into the trap of thinking science and religion must be in opposition to one another, which is not the case. They are the external mainifestations of two different aspects of the mind, and it strikes me as decidedly unlikely that evolution would have preserved one that is "wrong" or useless. Your error is to neglect one in favour of the other, where a fundamentalist religious fanatic does the reverse. Both failing to find a suitable, sensible balance.

Edited by Habitat
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psyche101

Lol. Well I tell you what, Psyche. When you get into your late senior years and I see you're still arguing with many superstitious cult-like individuals about UFOs, aliens, ghosts and science fiction beliefs on websites like this one and you see more of it in the future, then there ever was now, you get back to me way into the future (lol, if I'm still alive at that time of course) on this particular subject and then tell me what you think. Because I'll be waiting and watching too. :tu:

Cheers my friend!

With seeing people like Ken Ham being taken down by the likes of Bill Nye in public arenas, it is only a matter of time. The great minds are starting to weigh in on the debate. They are dumbing down things like Quantum Mechanics so even I can understand it. They are bringing knowledge to the people, which is how relgion managed to remain in power for so long, it curbed that with indoctrination and threats to the ignorant. As I say, ask anyone who still believes that Adam and Eve were actually the first man and woman, only the minority of creationists will agree with you. Look at all the people on this board not only questioning organised relgion, but coming up with their own versions. This is to be expected. We have had to consider relgion as "fact" for a very long time, and that will take a good couple of generation to scrape of our collective shoes. People are finding their own Gods, they are taking control. We the evidence becomes more widely dispersed inevitably, that will erode relgion away to what it is - myth. We still have small pockets of people who are deliberately ignorant who still believe in Fairies and Unicorns, but we do not have AFairisists or AUnicornists today. The day will come when the term "Atheist: too will be redundant.

Because the big names are weighing in, I have more hope than ever. IT is another way of disseminating knowledge, and as I say, knowledge does erode relgion. Eventually something will have to give, we can either leap forward, or step back into darkness, and I think too many people are aware and knowledgeable to allow the latter to happen again. I guess you could say if I have faith, it is in humanity. I'd like to hope others can see the value in that.

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psyche101

Nope, they are not going anywhere anytime soon. There are things that science can't prove. And there are things that science is just proving 50 years ago but religious books have mentioned them like a thousand years ago. So I think religions are like way ahead of science.

What do you specifically refer to with regards to science?

I am sad to see such an ignorant view, relgion has never been ahead of science.

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