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Is religion about to die out?

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Habitat

Your God is a loving, patient, and mericful God... interesting.

Is this the same God that allows for parasites to eat outwards from behind the eyes of children, or allowing such atrocities like mass shootings/warfare to happen? To allow things like cancer to exist? To allow a person to rape a toddler? I could go on... but if your God is "loving, patient, and merciful"... I'd like to know where he is in such situations.

this is an old chestnut, of course, that needs to be thought through a bit more, because a world where nothing "bad" happens, is a place where nothing "good" happens either, they being the two sides of the one coin. You would be reduced to the status of a non-entity.

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Nuclear Wessel

this is an old chestnut, of course, that needs to be thought through a bit more, because a world where nothing "bad" happens, is a place where nothing "good" happens either, they being the two sides of the one coin. You would be reduced to the status of a non-entity.

I was addressing the "loving, patient, and merciful" nature of barbco's god... not a world where nothing "bad" happens. It simply does not fit the definition of "loving" and "merciful"... patient, perhaps... in the context that god would be patient in seeing the results of the child's ailments, but hardly merciful and loving.

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Habitat

Oh, OK, you don't want all the "bad" stuff stopped, only the eye-eating worms !

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Nuclear Wessel

Oh, OK, you don't want all the "bad" stuff stopped, only the eye-eating worms !

I did not say that. Do not misrepresent what I am saying, please... what I said was that I was addressing barbco's claims of her god being "loving, patient, and merciful"...

EDIT: Probably not making sense... I've had a bit too much to drink....

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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Mr Walker

Your God is a loving, patient, and mericful God... interesting.

Is this the same God that allows for parasites to eat outwards from behind the eyes of children, or allowing such atrocities like mass shootings/warfare to happen? To allow things like cancer to exist? To allow a person to rape a toddler? I could go on... but if your God is "loving, patient, and merciful"... I'd like to know where he is in such situations.

There are many logical theological answers to this one, but also a practical one You may have a mistaken concept of the nature and power of god, and "his" connection to human beings.

Maybe god cannot do anything about parasites Maybe he is not the omniscient omnipresent entity some humans believe him to be, but he can work with humans to do something. For example the laws of Leviticus are designed to minimise the eating of foods likely to carry parasites and also do other long term harm When a child dies from a parasite infection is the mother strengthened or weakened by a faith in god? Does a faith allow for continued existence in a world where parasites and many other natural forces have the power to kill and wound, and we KNOW this to be true; whereas a lack of faith might result in fatalism and giving in.

God is where he always is in such tragedies; standing shoulder to shoulder with those wounded hurting and dieing, and offering peace, power, release from physical and emotional pain, dignity, strength and healing. You only have to observe the difference in people who accept his offer, and power, at such times (and the outcomes for such people) and compare them with those who have no hope, and no faith, to see why god is such a powerful being.

Even If god was no more than a psychological avatar/archetype, constructed in the minds of humans, this power exists, and is real, because it is a psychological product of faith/belief it is strongg enough to heal both physical and mental illnesses and to make a new man from an old one, as he reconstructs his very existence and being, on the basis of faith..

ps If you were god how would you prevent parasites being a part of the ecosystem of earth, and how would you stop one human being wanting to kill another?

Edited by Mr Walker

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Grandpa Greenman

ps If you were god how would you prevent parasites being a part of the ecosystem of earth, and how would you stop one human being wanting to kill another?

By not creating them in the first place or I am I wrong in my thinking God transcends space and time. If God isn't omniscient omnipresent entity then I would say such a creature isn't God. In the words of his holiness, James T Kirk, "What does God need with a starship? :nw:

How to stop one human for killing another, by stopping at evolution at a Bonobo type hominid and figuring that is about as good as that line is going to get.

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Hammerclaw

Wow. Quite a difference from going from a thoroughly cleansed thread about a weeping statue of the blessed virgin, or a closed thread about Islam, to this thread. Apparently, some religious nonsense garners reverence and respect while it's still open season on Protestant Christianity, as usual.

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Grandpa Greenman
:gun:
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Liquid Gardens

this is an old chestnut, of course, that needs to be thought through a bit more, because a world where nothing "bad" happens, is a place where nothing "good" happens either, they being the two sides of the one coin. You would be reduced to the status of a non-entity.

That's a rather old chestnut itself. Not everything is good or bad; all we need is some neutral ground, or even various degrees of just good, to still be able to differentiate 'good'.

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Liquid Gardens

You have seen the dark and ugly side to religion. I, on the other hand, have not. I had blinders on for the first 38 years of my life.

Then I don't know why you are criticizing Dawkins, he's 'debating' or criticizing the theist beliefs in the real world. And in the real world, these debates are not pointless and I think have changed people's minds. That's great that you personally have a good and inclusive belief system, but other Christians do not.

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Habitat

That's a rather old chestnut itself. Not everything is good or bad; all we need is some neutral ground, or even various degrees of just good, to still be able to differentiate 'good'.

You would have just "good" ? Feel no grief when a loved one dies ? Everyone a winner, no one suffers disappointment and hurt in a broken romance, or failure to reach a cherished career position, etc ? Anything that has the potential for great joy, has a corresponding potential for anguish. If you only want mild disappointments at worst, then you will have to settle for mild satisfaction.

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GlitterRose

It certainly doesn't appear that way.

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Doug1029

this is an old chestnut, of course, that needs to be thought through a bit more, because a world where nothing "bad" happens, is a place where nothing "good" happens either, they being the two sides of the one coin. You would be reduced to the status of a non-entity.

The Paradox of Evil is discussed in the Book of Job - without coming to a conclusion. I believe it to be an artificial construct, a consequence of the artificial construct we call "god."

Doug

P.S.: That sounds derogatory, but I don't mean it that way. The human mind cannot encompass all of the universe. So it tries to make sense of that part it can encompass. And that produces a limited and incomplete construct, whether we believe in god or not.

Doug

Edited by Doug1029
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Liquid Gardens

You would have just "good" ? Feel no grief when a loved one dies ? Everyone a winner, no one suffers disappointment and hurt in a broken romance, or failure to reach a cherished career position, etc ? Anything that has the potential for great joy, has a corresponding potential for anguish. If you only want mild disappointments at worst, then you will have to settle for mild satisfaction.

As I said, I don't know why you think you need bad things in equal amount to good things in order to experience those good things to the extent that we can. I see no reason why we couldn't live in a world where ecstacy/bliss is possible but our bad feelings were capped at 'mild disappointments'; you're imposing some necessary balance that I don't think is at all necessary.

At least in this world, the things you mention usually serve some purpose sometimes; heartbreak many times ends up eventually being beneficial as it strengthens those who have to experience it (and sometimes utterly and forever devastates some people), they grow and mature from the experience, or are better ready to handle their next relationship. I'm not seeing those same benefits as being as likely in the case of 'eye-eating worms' or bone cancer in children; unlike broken hearts, I rarely hear anyone say, 'well there were some beneficial things to losing my child to a horrible disease', exactly the opposite in my experience.

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barbco196

Your God is a loving, patient, and mericful God... interesting.

Is this the same God that allows for parasites to eat outwards from behind the eyes of children, or allowing such atrocities like mass shootings/warfare to happen? To allow things like cancer to exist? To allow a person to rape a toddler? I could go on... but if your God is "loving, patient, and merciful"... I'd like to know where he is in such situations.

Considering I have never had parasites eating MY eyes, or cancer, or anything else you said, I can safely say God is right by my side. I can't speak for the rest of humanity. That's between them and God.

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barbco196

Then I don't know why you are criticizing Dawkins, he's 'debating' or criticizing the theist beliefs in the real world. And in the real world, these debates are not pointless and I think have changed people's minds. That's great that you personally have a good and inclusive belief system, but other Christians do not.

Good point.

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Podo

Considering I have never had parasites eating MY eyes, or cancer, or anything else you said, I can safely say God is right by my side. I can't speak for the rest of humanity. That's between them and God.

"Nothing bad has happened to me, and I believe in [deity], therefore [deity] is on my side."

Confirmation bias.

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Nuclear Wessel

Considering I have never had parasites eating MY eyes, or cancer, or anything else you said, I can safely say God is right by my side. I can't speak for the rest of humanity. That's between them and God.

This is a delusional way of thinking, and I really am in awe that you've responded with this.

I'm curious. What do you think is so special about you which would have made God want to prevent these bad things from happening to you? What separates you, in your God's eyes, from the toddler who was raped? Why did God allow for that to happen to them, and not to you? Do you feel that you're more "special" to God than what they are?

You need to re-evaluate your belief system, in my opinion. It is not logical and, frankly, seems quite delusional.

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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Doug1029

Wow. Quite a difference from going from a thoroughly cleansed thread about a weeping statue of the blessed virgin, or a closed thread about Islam, to this thread. Apparently, some religious nonsense garners reverence and respect while it's still open season on Protestant Christianity, as usual.

I know several people who have been hurt by the fire-and-brimstone, vengeful, hateful nature of god taught by many Protestant churches. Admittedly, not all churches are like that, but enough are that they have created a perception of churches as hateful places. So what else would you expect people to think about such organizations?

I once took a course on public relations. There were a dozen phys.ed. students in the course. One of them asked the instructor how they could overcome their image of being sweat-shirt wearing, whistle-blowing jocks. The instructor told them to look around the room. Most of them were wearing sweatshirts and some had whistles. So if one wants to create an image of being a peaceful, loving community, one must actually create a peaceful, loving community. If your members are constantly telling people they are going to hell, you're going to acquire a devil-worshipping reputation.

I have visited several Protestant churches where I was made to feel distinctly unwelcome. Those churches wonder why their membership is declining. I think I could tell them.

Doug

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crookedspiral

Religion will always exist. It's a form of 'organized spirituality'. Many people intuitively realize that life and the Universe aren't the product of blind, random processes. Call it God, YAHWE, Allah, Brahma or Buddha they all express similar feelings in the end. But of course not really knowing what it's all about can cause a great deal of anxiety. Which is why I think certain people, in religion, cling to dogmas and irrational doctrines as a way to quell the existantial angst.

Edited by TruthSeeker_
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Hammerclaw

I know several people who have been hurt by the fire-and-brimstone, vengeful, hateful nature of god taught by many Protestant churches. Admittedly, not all churches are like that, but enough are that they have created a perception of churches as hateful places. So what else would you expect people to think about such organizations?

I once took a course on public relations. There were a dozen phys.ed. students in the course. One of them asked the instructor how they could overcome their image of being sweat-shirt wearing, whistle-blowing jocks. The instructor told them to look around the room. Most of them were wearing sweatshirts and some had whistles. So if one wants to create an image of being a peaceful, loving community, one must actually create a peaceful, loving community. If your members are constantly telling people they are going to hell, you're going to acquire a devil-worshipping reputation.

I have visited several Protestant churches where I was made to feel distinctly unwelcome. Those churches wonder why their membership is declining. I think I could tell them.

Doug

Exactly how were made to feel "distinctly unwelcome" and why? Did you walk in with your confirmation biases in hand and start blathering your stereotypical preconceptions? Please don't tell you are yet another apostate Catholic without the courage to take on your own Church and seek an easier mark. Edited by Hammerclaw

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Doug1029

Exactly how were made to feel "distinctly unwelcome" and why? Did you walk in with your confirmation biases in hand and start blathering your stereotypical preconceptions? Please don't tell you are yet another apostate Catholic without the courage to take on your own Church and seek an easier mark.

I was baptized Lutheran, raised Methodist and ended up Presbyterian by the time I entered college, so I'm not and never was an apostate Catholic.

I had the opportunity to attend the Baptist facility at Glorietta, New Mexico. I made the mistake of discussing religion and asking difficult questions that probably revealed my skepticism of the party line. The mood became hostile rather quickly. When I saw this happening, I changed my sales pitch and became as "saved" as they were. I was then able to leave and got a bus headed north as soon as I could - narrow escape.

In college I attended a revival and learned how the earth would be ending soon (That was in 1970.). They produced a list of ten Bible verses that "proved" it. I looked them up: two didn't exist. Four more didn't have anything to do with the subject and the remaining four had only a vague resemblance to end-of-the-world prophecy. Needless to say, my confidence in fundamentalism took a major hit.

A couple years later I was hitchhiking through Whitebird, Idaho (That was before they built the bypass.). I stood outside the Church of Christ with my thumb out while the entire congregation drove past. My assumption that Christians practice what they preach took a big hit from that.

Five years later I attended a Four Square Gospel Church. I heard the preacher telling his congregation how evil atheists are - hate from the pulpit, yet. I was floored - that's not the kind of church I grew up in. How is a Christian going to engage an atheist if he drives them away before even knowing they're an atheist? I don't believe I revealed my beliefs while in church - all I did was attend a service. And I would fear for my life if they ever thought I was an atheist (At that time I was searching for a church.). I wound up becoming a Quaker. You could call me an agnostic Quaker. That may not make sense to you, but unprogrammed Quakers will know what I mean.

That same preacher told his citified congregation that Jesus' donkey-ride was some sort of miracle because the donkey didn't buck. If that's a miracle, then there are thousands of miracle-performing cowboys on ranches throughout the west. A greenbroke horse does not often buck the first time it is ridden. It doesn't know it can; being ridden is a new experience. This preacher either didn't know this himself, or was counting on his congregation not knowing any better. An interesting sidenote: I told another preacher about this. He makes his living farming and preaches part-time on weekends. He knew all about greenbroke colts. His wife, however, thinks it was a miracle. So it's a miracle if Jesus did it, but not if a cowboy did it. Oh, well.

My wife is a member of Church Women United. A Muslim woman attended one of their meetings. She wore a scarf and in keeping with Muslim modesty, wore it during the meeting and luncheon that followed. She encountered strong pressure from several "Christian" women to remove her scarf. When that failed, they resorted to snide comments about it until my wife felt compiled to apologize to her in front of the entire group. Now they wonder why Muslims don't participate in CWU.

But, even if a visitor expresses contrary opinions when attending a church, why drive him away? You may never get another chance to change his mind. Why throw it away?

Doug

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Hammerclaw

I was baptized Lutheran, raised Methodist and ended up Presbyterian by the time I entered college, so I'm not and never was an apostate Catholic.

I had the opportunity to attend the Baptist facility at Glorietta, New Mexico. I made the mistake of discussing religion and asking difficult questions that probably revealed my skepticism of the party line. The mood became hostile rather quickly. When I saw this happening, I changed my sales pitch and became as "saved" as they were. I was then able to leave and got a bus headed north as soon as I could - narrow escape.

In college I attended a revival and learned how the earth would be ending soon (That was in 1970.). They produced a list of ten Bible verses that "proved" it. I looked them up: two didn't exist. Four more didn't have anything to do with the subject and the remaining four had only a vague resemblance to end-of-the-world prophecy. Needless to say, my confidence in fundamentalism took a major hit.

A couple years later I was hitchhiking through Whitebird, Idaho (That was before they built the bypass.). I stood outside the Church of Christ with my thumb out while the entire congregation drove past. My assumption that Christians practice what they preach took a big hit from that.

Five years later I attended a Four Square Gospel Church. I heard the preacher telling his congregation how evil atheists are - hate from the pulpit, yet. I was floored - that's not the kind of church I grew up in. How is a Christian going to engage an atheist if he drives them away before even knowing they're an atheist? I don't believe I revealed my beliefs while in church - all I did was attend a service. And I would fear for my life if they ever thought I was an atheist (At that time I was searching for a church.). I wound up becoming a Quaker. You could call me an agnostic Quaker. That may not make sense to you, but unprogrammed Quakers will know what I mean.

That same preacher told his citified congregation that Jesus' donkey-ride was some sort of miracle because the donkey didn't buck. If that's a miracle, then there are thousands of miracle-performing cowboys on ranches throughout the west. A greenbroke horse does not often buck the first time it is ridden. It doesn't know it can; being ridden is a new experience. This preacher either didn't know this himself, or was counting on his congregation not knowing any better. An interesting sidenote: I told another preacher about this. He makes his living farming and preaches part-time on weekends. He knew all about greenbroke colts. His wife, however, thinks it was a miracle. So it's a miracle if Jesus did it, but not if a cowboy did it. Oh, well.

My wife is a member of Church Women United. A Muslim woman attended one of their meetings. She wore a scarf and in keeping with Muslim modesty, wore it during the meeting and luncheon that followed. She encountered strong pressure from several "Christian" women to remove her scarf. When that failed, they resorted to snide comments about it until my wife felt compiled to apologize to her in front of the entire group. Now they wonder why Muslims don't participate in CWU.

But, even if a visitor expresses contrary opinions when attending a church, why drive him away? You may never get another chance to change his mind. Why throw it away?

Doug

What you did was the equivalent of farting in an elevator, something best done in the open air. You weren't driven away; you just stayed long enough to confirm your biases.

The concept of Hell you so detest wasn't created in Protestantism, it was brought over from Catholicism.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

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barbco196

"Nothing bad has happened to me, and I believe in [deity], therefore [deity] is on my side."

Confirmation bias.

Well, no. My life has been anything but that. I was talking about the specific ailments that I quoted. I haven't experienced those things personally, so I have no answer.

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Stubbly_Dooright

barbco:

Psyche, have you ever asked yourself why you feel the need to discuss the subject of God? Would it bother you to find out God does exist? Would that somehow make you feel inferior? I look at all the time and energy people spend debating God's existence and how those brilliant minds could be tackling things that really matter. How much time do you think people like Mr.Dawkins have spent researching The Bible and God, and for what? What does he gain at the end of the day besides an ego boost?

I have said before why I won't engage in a debate: I don't feel the need to convince anyone God exists and how I came to that conclusion. This isn't a debate forum. I come here to learn and engage in discussions. I've been in a few threads where I actually have anxiety, waiting to read a response, or how I should reply. I think that's foolish.

Although, that is something everyone must expect and keep calm in message boards, ( I for one, am guilty of it a lot :yes: ) I think you made a good point.

I believe psyche feels he has a reason for the need to discuss it.

I agree with you, there a lot of people or I see a group of people, that debate the existence of God, when they don't think God exists. I always feel, some of them are doing it as a form of therapy, from growing up either hiding, have been victim from prosetylizers, and now are trying to deal with it. Some do feel that they want to get rid of the notion of religion, from what they see in their point of view.

( in which, no matter what, and no one should feel what other people believe should be their place to encourage it. )

I think, what we must always remember, what might be a bit intense to read, is probably not for the writer.

But I think, you asked a good question.

LG:

Actually I think it kinda is, informally; ergo the name, 'Spirituality vs Skepticism'.
Well, :blush: Sorry, Barbco, but I think LG made a good point.

Have to look at this one first, Ms Mustards reply deserves some time I do not have this morning.

Not really, as I have mentioned before it is in my nature to be methodical. I can see the bad relgion does and have the blinders lifted from my eyes. Becoming Atheist was an epiphany, that realisation brought me to a point where real truths matter to me. If I see a ET story, Cryptid or other I respond in the very same manner. Cryptozoology was what originally brought me to the forum.

Barb, honestly, I would be over the moon. To know there is an entire new field to understand, and the hope I would see long lost loved ones again is a powerful aphrodisiac, but not enough to seduce me from the real knowledge and evidence.

Not at all. I am inferior to the people I quote. As I mentioned before, my detractors are entirely correct when they state "this is not my work, I did not come up with anything" and that is entirely correct. All I can hope to do is understand it in it's entirety. A "God" would only expand that field for me.

Truth does matter Barb, frankly, that is my motivation. It is why I can answer to certain people with pure data. Religion is an assault on logic, knowledge and common sense. I see Religion as the aggressor here. A fair system would admit when evidence shows when it is wrong. Religion will never do that, and religious people say that themselves. While science does leave a door open for evidence of the supernatural, religion does not return that courtesy to science. Religion allows for science when it can fit within the confines of religious doctrine.

Not a great deal on the personal aspects of the Bible itself, but many here who subscribe to religious outlooks or spirituality say the very same. I do not really care who begat who, enough of the factual claims have been debunked to prove the Bible is flawed and heavily. A personal outlook is a good way to begin to break away form the tyranny of organised religion. I find the question Jeanne asked on the Historicity quite interesting, but overall, the bigger picture I find is what really matters in the real world.

I mentioned to another poster, science took pictures of Pluto, cured Polio, built supercomputers that can calculate well beyond our abilities. Religion has given us conflict, false superiority complexes, has been the direct cause of death, allowed children to die for "the will of god" as well as the average everyday nuisances like tearing up families over faith clashes. Science flies us to the moon, religion flies us into buildings. Why does that not deserve more limelight than religion?

Have you seen the insults and tirades Mr Dawkins has to wade through as well as any accolades? I can't see ego being the goal.

Yes, you have, but you also make claims that you should be prepared to support if you make them, that is only fair in a discussion forum, as it is supposed to be two way as far as I know. Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs is for fawning over belief systems, and I do not hassle the people there with their belief, I have read some posts form posters like Mark Dhole and crikey Moses. I could tear them to pieces, but that is not what that section exists for. It exists to allow people to express their religiosity in peace, and I respect that space. In this space, discussion of skepticism is warranted as that is reflected in the title. If a religious claim is made, this is the section to ask about that, and I do, and I think politely, but remain in the dark as to how you resolve the situation as you claim to. You know I think a lot of you, and would love for you to help me see your point of view, because as far as I can see, your proposals are unworkable for the reasons I have detailed. I think if you make such a claim in this section, we deserve more than the claim, we deserve to know why it is considered valid. Like saying science and religion can walk hand in hand. Pointing out the minority that adopt that conundrum in no way explains or supports the notion. Written out, they two conclusions heavily conflict.

As I say, I am methodical, I am driven to seek out knowledge. As such, a stonewall like that is terribly frustrating.

Well put answers. :tu:
I have to say though, that thinking fertility levels gauges the value of a person is plain ridiculous and something to be ashamed of.
Yup! :yes::tu:

Thank you for that.

Hawkin:

How many here come from a religious family and what do your parents/grandparents think of your change?

Do they even know at all?

Well, that kind of rules me out.

barbco:

Well see, here's where we need clarification. You have seen the dark and ugly side to religion. I, on the other hand, have not. I had blinders on for the first 38 years of my life. I knew NOTHING of religion or God. Do you think maybe that's why you dislike the idea of God? I don't have the same paradigm of thought as you or many of the people that post on here. My God is a loving, patient, and merciful God. I dont know this God you keep making reference to. I don't believe in seperation. Not once did Jesus instruct his disciples to go amongst the people and create a thing called Christianity. I don't believe we should have separate denominations. These are all things MAN has created, not God or Jesus.
If I remember what you have said in the past ( correct me if my memory faultered here ) you were raised secularly or like an Atheist. Kind of how I was raised. I believe psyche has mentioned countless times, he grew up in a religious environment. I would think others here, with a positive point of view on religion, and who also grew up religiously, would be those to have an empathic understanding, than us two. We actually don't have any form of religious experience, to say what we experienced differently, than to psyche's experience. I will agree, you and I, may have a good portion, due to our social neighbors, education, and the media, but I don't think that compares to someone who grew up in a positive religious environment.

I think it's interesting though, if you take us three, where psyche grew up in it, and is now an Atheist, and we didn't, and we became our own version of believers.

Habitat:

NW:
Your God is a loving, patient, and mericful God... interesting.

Is this the same God that allows for parasites to eat outwards from behind the eyes of children, or allowing such atrocities like mass shootings/warfare to happen? To allow things like cancer to exist? To allow a person to rape a toddler? I could go on... but if your God is "loving, patient, and merciful"... I'd like to know where he is in such situations.

this is an old chestnut, of course, that needs to be thought through a bit more, because a world where nothing "bad" happens, is a place where nothing "good" happens either, they being the two sides of the one coin. You would be reduced to the status of a non-entity.

This answer has nothing to do with the fact of debating one's experience of God and what has been written what God did. You're going on a by the side philosophical point. I see a difference here.

NW:

EDIT: Probably not making sense... I've had a bit too much to drink....
And no glass of it for me?!?!? ^_^<_<:blink:

GmG:

By not creating them in the first place or I am I wrong in my thinking God transcends space and time. If God isn't omniscient omnipresent entity then I would say such a creature isn't God. In the words of his holiness, James T Kirk, "What does God need with a starship? :nw:
I guess, that will be the one defining moment for that particular movie.
Hammer:

Wow. Quite a difference from going from a thoroughly cleansed thread about a weeping statue of the blessed virgin, or a closed thread about Islam, to this thread. Apparently, some religious nonsense garners reverence and respect while it's still open season on Protestant Christianity, as usual.

GmG: :gun:

:blink::cry:

barbco:

Considering I have never had parasites eating MY eyes, or cancer, or anything else you said, I can safely say God is right by my side. I can't speak for the rest of humanity. That's between them and God.
And I could say that about myself and my higher power. But, I think of Sinead O'Connor and her ripping up the photo of the then pope, and such, and I feel, ( on top of remember reading of her younger life and her 'treadment' of her very religious mother ) that she has had the negative experiences that 'she' feels is from God.

I do not condone what she did on SNL, and I do feel, it's not God, but her mother she has issues with. But I have read, that she actually felt that way. ( I could have remembered wrong, but I have been reminded of that just now. )

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