Is religion about to die out?

[Mr Walker]

This is a delusional way of thinking, and I really am in awe that you've responded with this.

I'm curious. What do you think is so special about you which would have made God want to prevent these bad things from happening to you? What separates you, in your God's eyes, from the toddler who was raped? Why did God allow for that to happen to them, and not to you? Do you feel that you're more "special" to God than what they are?

You need to re-evaluate your belief system, in my opinion. It is not logical and, frankly, seems quite delusional.

Those are excellent questions, but why/how should we have any way of answering them? They apply to me too, although i would not express them in quite the same way..I see myself as living how ANY human being can choose to live, and i see all humans open to the protection and empowerment which the presence of god offers us.

I know i am blessed, protected, and empowered by the physical and intellectual presence of god. I can name some of the physical ways god protects me, through teaching me safe eating, living, and sexual practices and behaviours, and i can tell you how god protects me from physical dangers. I can explain, how, if i suffered a serious disease or illness leading to death, god would walk with me, empowering, strengthening, and giving courage and light, so that i felt no fear, no loss, no anger, or envy for those who lived on.

BUT, I have no idea why god does all this for me. I can understand the psychological process which operates in my mind to afford some of this power and protection, and how our actions reap consequences, but how /why god gives me this understanding is beyond me. For me, from my perspective and perception, it seems as if some people seem to suffer from a condition of "god blindness' which is almost a physical or mental disability like colour blindness or delusion. They simply cannot sense or perceive the presence of god, even when "he" is standing right next to them, and trying to get their attention.

To be able to explain why i can see/sense/perceive the presence of god, and yet someone else cannot, is like trying to explain to a blind person why i can see, and they cannot. or to a person who is NOT colour blind why i cant see the colours which they do.. It just IS

I just know that, in turn this connection to god and the protection and empowerment it affords me, creates a duty and obligation for me to do everything in my power to help those who don't have my advantages. God helps and protects me, and in turn I use my skills and money to help and protect others, including animals and our environment .

Edited May 13, 2016 by Mr Walker

[psyche101]

It is a pity you don't understand history, economics or reality. Given your desire to be realistic, factual, and logical regarding religion, it is hard to see why you are so illogical about this There ARE no absolute human moralities or ethics. We build or construct every belief/morality or ethical standard to fit our current circumstances. Basically it is about human survival and maintaining a safe strong society to preserve the lives of all people.

I really do not know why you bother. I guess you like the attention of being the odd one out? You are rabbiting on here about nothing at all, where is the logic you claim I am denying? Evolving morals have nothing to do with your claims or protests. And they come form mankind, not some God. On that much I assume we agree, but with you, it is hard to tell.

. Slavery is acceptable when it is the economic force allowing for the survival of many, and where the alternative is simply killing off non economically supportable people or having the entire society starve . Many societies had to let children and the elderly die in times of famine, etc to preserve the breeding population.

Nope, slavery is not acceptable in any way shape or form ever. If production is viable, then profits will be made, and all need to share in those profits. You archaic barbaric view is a few thousand years out of date. No Human is a thing that can be bought or owned, intelligence puts us well above that, and provides us with the tools we require to evaluate our born rights. Living in the wild is preferable to slavery. A value condoned by the Bible:

Ephesians 6:5 ESV

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ.

Quran (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."

The Bible says Slaves must FEAR their masters, and the Koran says you can have sex with them, even if they are already married!!!! - Yeah, great morals to live by???????

That you would condone slavery says a lot about you, and it is not good. I think I might have to end up banning you anyway on moral grounds. I find your views archaic, barbaric and they assault my senses. Slavery is OK? No, no it is not - not ever. A fair day's compensation for a fair days work. That is an employee, not a slave, very different thing.

What a vile outlook on slavery!!

Moralities are not philosophically right or wrong, they are practical- based responses to reality. Are your ethics and moralities better than a plains indian from the early 1800s or someone from a different culture? Is it immoral to eat a dog or kill a whale just because our culture now frowns on these things? ?

Well, I can see that you feel that way thinking slaves are OK< gays can be attacked, and women are to be judged by their birthing abilities!!

I honestly hope you are a dying breed, really, the world does not need values like that in any place at any time.

Yes, my moralities are better than the Plains indians, the species would be a entire failure if they were not. That is the point of learning to do better, pass those lessons on, and leave the world a better place than we found it. My kids need to have better morals than I do, and their kids the same in turn.

We all should be driving to improve the world for all in it. Not for a select few who have taken advantage of others.

To take an example, eating meat is presently generally acceptable but quite likely, in the future it will be considered barbaric and evil.

Does that make YOU an evil person for eating meat today?

Ohh what nonsense, keep your Vegan preaching to yourself. Veganism is just not for me, and I see no reason to adopt it. If mankind can reduce the meat footprint, the benefit would be to the planet with regards to bettering conditions for the surface and the atmosphere.

Another example. In the future it is possible no human will be allowed to own or control another animal, as animal rights evolve and become enshrined in law. Does that make you an evil person today because otu have a pet? if you have an abortion today, and in 20 years time this again becomes immoral and unethical behaviour and illegal, according to your society, are you NOW ( or then) an evil person.

No of course not. We cant judge others from the past, or other cultures, by our own contemporary standards without running the risk of great hypocrisy, and a lack of logic. WHY are my morals better than yours why are westerners moralities better than easterners etc.

Well, I do not believe that isa possibility, as I have said, if i have faith in anything, it is the species, and I just canot see the entire population becoming stupid enough to adopt such ridiculous measures. You imagination is running wild here. PETA is laughed at, if they did not have hot women posing naked form them, they would be defunct by now. Extremist groups with stupid ideas are just like relgion, peddling falsehoods to the gullible, and forcing it down the throats of the ignorant in an attempt to garner more support. People see though such idiocy, shame you cannot.

And no. gays were only in part discriminated against because the y were different from others. Historically it is due to demographics Societies simply could not afford to have people not marrying and reproducing (and yes there were illogical excetions such as some priest hoods although by the time christianity evolved the worst danger of humanity dying out was over )

BS, and BS. Islam goes beyond merely disapproving of homosexuality. Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death. They have been doing that for 2,000 years.

LINK - 'Kill the Gays' Preacher Kevin Swanson: God's on His Side

LINK - Why Is the Media Ignoring Ted Cruz’s Embrace of ‘Kill the Gays’ Pastor?

What's that got to do with survivability? We do not have specialists to "make fire" these days. we have stoves and heaters. What proof is there that society ever saw the Gay Community as a threat to survivability and not just an abomination of God? Anything to put to support your claim? I reckon it is entirely made up, and probably by Christians trying to cover up some religious evil.

Look at women ofn the same era. They were expected (compelled) to marry young, have 14 or more children and statistically they were likely to die in childbirth or soon after. About 70% of all children born, died before reaching reproductive age, again mostly when very young. Refusing to get married and to produce a lot of kids DID put your family, your clan /tribe and your society at a very real risk, and THAT'S the reason so many societies frowned on gay men. It was different if you got married and had kids despite being gay, and same sex sex was common among many men especially in the military. BUT, these men were ALSO married and producing kids. Christianity and judaism did for homosexaulity as they did with many civil based laws; tied them to religious beliefs to make them stronger and more internalised.

And child marriage was also OK'ed by the Bible? Islam's prophet took a 9 year old girl in the name of religion!!! There simply is no way to justify a 50 year old dirty man taking a 9 year old child to the bedroom. Not in any time, nor in any place. Instinctual morals tell us this is wrong and then wrong, and being supposedly divine just makes that all the more disgusting. God approves of pedophiliea? Seriously, how do people see value in that, and dismiss such a vile act in the name of religion??? That alone tells me religion just has to go. There is no way that should be seen as acceptable under any circumstances, and do not try to justify it, it won't be pretty, I feel very strongly about this. Something that should make relgion a thing people should cringe at, and one day, they will.

Nothing wrong with eugenics. We use it all the time (albeit still in a somewhat primitive form) to help women conceive, to eliminate genetic flaws in the unborn /not yet conceived Only when the purpose of eugenics is racially based or other wise evil is it bad. Actually using modern science to eliminate genetic diseases, pain and suffering from humans is a noble aim. Why should any chid be born blind with cerebral palsy or spina bifida, if it an be avoided? Why should any one die prematurely from a genetic defect caused by the combined genes of their parents, if this can be prevented?

Another insane statement. Tell that to the thousand Hitler slaughtered because they did not meet a certain standard. Tell that to the babies left abandoned to die, or become food for wild animals. Genetic Engineering is about improving quality of life, removing disease, being more resilient, better healing.

Altering DNA to remove Parkinson's disease is a great deal more advanced than the bumbling and atrocious efforts of the Nazi regime.

What you mean to say is the Genetic Engineering approaches we have developed today from the original realisation of evolution through natural selection might benefit the community when moral issues are ironed out so that a madman does not initiate the same sort of slaughter the Nazis did with their clumsy attempt at Eugenics. Original ideals were an abomination of known practices stretching back through centuries with selective breeding. Genetic Engineering is mile in front of the selective breeding Eugenics attempted in historical record.

It is not religion which sets the value of people, including women. it is their socio economic value as determined by their place and role in a society In a modern western society where a woman is a valuable money earner, she is less likely to be stoned for defiling the family's honour than in a poor country where she has no "value" .

You have heard the term Honor Killing" Why are you pretending it does not exist?

This is just yet another reason to turn our backs on religion. You are turning a blind eye to the evils of relgion, and making nonsense up to cover its tracks just like the Catholic Church did with pedophiles.

LINK - 'I would do it again 100 times': Muslim father 'murdered his THREE daughters in honour killing for dating wrong boys'

LINK - 'Honour' killing: Pakistani man strangles daughter to death in Germany

LINK - Pakistan: Muslim husband murders wife for visiting her sister without permission

That painting a picture yet?

Fertility has ALWAYS been one way humans judge another's value (as a form of economic value) and it still is, even in the west. But with overpopulation that value declined. in a time of under population its value will rise again and women will be paid for their fertility as the y are today in australia (a woman earns tens of thousands of dollars in Australia simply by having a baby and caring for it each year. If you have 4 or more children you can earn more than a skilled worker, from govt money and subsidies. ) Fair /unfair? good/bad? it is just human nature to judge people by their value.

And you were attracted to your wife because she had good birthing hips? I do not think so.

Tens of thousands now??? Crikey, the Government owes me big time. You get a grand here and there. You are overstating and dramatically.

Your historical interpretation is incorrect. American slavery was ended because it was no longer economic Yes it took a war to do so but in the north, modern industrialism had made slavery redundant, allowing the emancipation movement to grow. in the south slavery was becoming less significant and most new slaves were house slaves not field workers, as machinery replaced human labour.

Then where did Lincoln get "the idea"????

But without industrialisation and hence the change in value of slaves in the north, the civil war would never have occurred. There are more humans kept as slaves ( Ie lacking in the basic human freedoms) now, than ever in human history, and the reason for this is because slavery in many parts of the world has again become profitable. Modern salves tend to be children and women.

http://www.freethesl.../slavery-today/

http://www.alternet....e-human-history

And that just proves my point, we have come a hell of a long way from:

Ephesians 6:5 ESV / 358 helpful votes

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

Haven't we? We view it is disgusting and immoral. Are you not picking up on that most important aspect.

[GlitterRose]

Considering I have never had parasites eating MY eyes, or cancer, or anything else you said, I can safely say God is right by my side. I can't speak for the rest of humanity. That's between them and God.

So wait...everyone who DOES get cancer...obviously those are the bad people without God on their side?

Wow.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

So wait...everyone who DOES get cancer...obviously those are the bad people without God on their side?

Wow.

I raised a similar point earlier and apparently that's not what she means.

[+Hammerclaw]

Oh my. Why do so many atheists consider shooting fish in a barrel a legitimate sport?

[GlitterRose]

I raised a similar point earlier and apparently that's not what she means.

There's nothing else it could mean.

[GlitterRose]

Oh my. Why do so many atheists consider shooting fish in a barrel a legitimate sport?

Maybe the fish should just quit jumping into the barrel and leaving loaded guns lying around.

Edited May 13, 2016 by ChaosRose

[+Nuclear Wessel]

There's nothing else it could mean.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but she refused to accept that it could not mean anything else. I stopped the conversation with her there.

EDIT: I refer you to page eight.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Nuclear Wessel

[GlitterRose]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but she refused to accept that it could not mean anything else. I stopped the conversation with her there.

I think it's just wonderful if no tragedy has ever touched her or her family. Not everyone has that same experience, and it doesn't mean God is not "on their side." As I recall...God was on Job's side, and look what happened to that guy.

So they say, anyway.

And God is on your side...dividing sparrows from the nightingales...

Edited May 13, 2016 by ChaosRose

[+Hammerclaw]

Maybe the fish should just quit jumping into the barrel and leaving loaded guns lying around.

It's not dignified for one of such high intellect to stoop so low. You belong on a higher plane.

[GlitterRose]

It's not dignified for one of such high intellect to stoop so low. You belong on a higher plane.

You know it's just the arrogance of it that I can't stand. I must be right because bad things don't happen to me. You should think like me and then bad things wouldn't happen to you. It's your fault bad things happen to you because you don't think like me.

And all of those poor children dying of starvation and horrible diseases...I guess it's their fault, too.

Edited May 13, 2016 by ChaosRose

[+Sherapy]

Those are excellent questions, but why/how should we have any way of answering them? They apply to me too, although i would not express them in quite the same way..I see myself as living how ANY human being can choose to live, and i see all humans open to the protection and empowerment which the presence of god offers us.

I know i am blessed, protected, and empowered by the physical and intellectual presence of god. I can name some of the physical ways god protects me, through teaching me safe eating, living, and sexual practices and behaviours, and i can tell you how god protects me from physical dangers. I can explain, how, if i suffered a serious disease or illness leading to death, god would walk with me, empowering, strengthening, and giving courage and light, so that i felt no fear, no loss, no anger, or envy for those who lived on.

BUT, I have no idea why god does all this for me. I can understand the psychological process which operates in my mind to afford some of this power and protection, and how our actions reap consequences, but how /why god gives me this understanding is beyond me. For me, from my perspective and perception, it seems as if some people seem to suffer from a condition of "god blindness' which is almost a physical or mental disability like colour blindness or delusion. They simply cannot sense or perceive the presence of god, even when "he" is standing right next to them, and trying to get their attention.

To be able to explain why i can see/sense/perceive the presence of god, and yet someone else cannot, is like trying to explain to a blind person why i can see, and they cannot. or to a person who is NOT colour blind why i cant see the colours which they do.. It just IS

I just know that, in turn this connection to god and the protection and empowerment it affords me, creates a duty and obligation for me to do everything in my power to help those who don't have my advantages. God helps and protects me, and in turn I use my skills and money to help and protect others, including animals and our environment .

Hmmm, why did God prevent you from having children of your own and why did God give you heart issues that you had to have surgery for?

It doesn't sound like god has protected you any more than anyone else, it sounds like the harsh realities of life hit you too.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Sherapy

[psyche101]

Well see, here's where we need clarification.

Super!! Thanks for asking!

You have seen the dark and ugly side to religion. I, on the other hand, have not.

I beg to differ dear lady.

Unless you have been hidden in a cave for most of you life, you must have head of ISIS, The Catholic Church Scandal and things like JW's letting children die for their interpretation of the Bible. These are acts directly quoted and interpreted by what man considers to be "the Word Of God" which culminates in relgion.

I had blinders on for the first 38 years of my life. I knew NOTHING of religion or God.

I find that too very very hard to believe, You may not have taken stock in what you had heard, but it seems inconceivable to me that you "had not at all" heard of God. And those who did speak of God, and or introduced you to God presented religion as a viable alternative, In your lovely manner, you have considered that with an open mind and felt it could fit well into a way to describe your life experience. What you were robbed of was the reasoning that shows the ugly side of that which gives your comfort, it is one giant trade off, for those who recieve comfort there will be those on the other side of the fence suffering for your comfort. Like Islam. So many give it credence because 1.6 billion people follow it, which means absolutely nothing. As a result, billions more live in fear, and thousands die horribly to maintain that comfort for that 1.6 billion, which I feel is anything but peaceful or loving. Nothing like what religion is touted to be. The bigger picture paints a nasty picture when you extend past a personal world view. And I feel that matters so much more. Aussies are very community orientated, as our gun regulations show. We get involved and consider the community above personal desires, which I feel some label as "liberties".

Do you think maybe that's why you dislike the idea of God? I don't have the same paradigm of thought as you or many of the people that post on here.

No, as much as I hold you in high regard your personal view would not have the sort of impact my father's guidance had on me. He was a very religious person. I speak to you because you are interesting, and ask questions that could become long and fruitful discussions, you just need to let go a bit more and post a bit more often to support your views so we can all understand where you are coming from better.

And, I may have mentioned, I think you are hotter than December. Ever experienced and Aussie summer? Hottest place in the world on some days. Over 50 degrees at times in places.

My God is a loving, patient, and merciful God. I dont know this God you keep making reference to.

The same one, which is where I would hope that open mind starts to see a discrepancy. It is also the same God that tells fundamentals to fly planes into buildings. That's the rub here, you are only looking at one face of God, but I assure you, he has many. Nice to some, horrid to others, ever wondered what God would do if a Christian and a Muslim both showed up at once? It would be more than awkward for god. I know a couple of people who re-evaluated faith after 911, and came away just as jaded with relgion as I have.

I don't believe in seperation. Not once did Jesus instruct his disciples to go amongst the people and create a thing called Christianity.

??? He sure did:

Mark 16:15 NKJV

“And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.'”

Matthew 24:14 NKJV

“And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

Psalms 96:3 NKJV

“Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all peoples.”

Revelation 14:6-7 NKJV

“Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— saying with a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.'”

Matthew 28:19-20 NKJV

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

I don't believe we should have separate denominations.

Think about it - if there really was one true God, we would not.

These are all things MAN has created, not God or Jesus.

But man made God too. Just follow history, like I said, we have created over a thousand Gods in our written history. Why one earth would this one be correct, and all the others wrong? The historicity thread shows that the claims of miracles cannot be validated, and it seems there is a very good case for Jesus of Nazareth as the culmination of many men who contributed to the one legend. Dawkins even believes that Jesus existed, but as a man, not the son of God.

And as you can see, Jesus is responsible for some of the things you blame man for, and God's written word is very much the inspiration for many violent acts in history from religious war to persecution of minority groups. It seems to me very much that you are cherry picking religion which to be fair is how most resolve the nasty parts of the Bible.

[psyche101]

Considering I have never had parasites eating MY eyes, or cancer, or anything else you said, I can safely say God is right by my side. I can't speak for the rest of humanity. That's between them and God.

No, that canot be right, why do animals suffer as a way of life, what sort of twisted mind would "design" things like Ichneumonidae, which had a huge impact on Darwin's religious views:

I own that I cannot see as plainly as others do, and as I should wish to do, evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.

LINK

[Habitat]

And all of those poor children dying of starvation and horrible diseases...I guess it's their fault, too.

I give up. who's fault is it ?

[Mr Walker]

I raised a similar point earlier and apparently that's not what she means.

It is quite self evidently not what is meant and IMO it takes a deliberate misunderstanding to see that interpretation . A person can only know god through themselves, and they can only know and understand their own relationship with god.

Thus they cannot know or understand why god (or fate, or life, or luck ) protects and empowers them, keeping them safe and happy all their lives, while others around them are miserable, depressed, oppressed, 'unlucky" and unhappy. I mean, i know why i am blessed, fortunate, protected and lucky. It has to do with knowing consequences and thinking and behaving in a certain way, and also allowing the power of god to fill me and keep me happy, fulfilled and connected and not angry resentful stressed lonely fearful or isolated. etc.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

You know it's just the arrogance of it that I can't stand. I must be right because bad things don't happen to me. You should think like me and then bad things wouldn't happen to you. It's your fault bad things happen to you because you don't think like me.

And all of those poor children dying of starvation and horrible diseases...I guess it's their fault, too.

That wasn't the message i got at all. She didnt KNOW why others suffered while she does not .

A person who is one with god simply has no need to suffer. Not even when they are dieng, or their loved ones are dieing For such people, death is nothing to fear and the connection to god stops fear, separation anxiety, guilt, loneliness etc., all of which make suffering and pain more severe for a human being . A relationship with a living god puts one above or apart from such suffering. if you find that arrogant you don't comprehend the empowerment a connection to god can give a human being. We all die. God gives us the abilty to die without fear and hence without a lot of the pain and suffering which we construct for ourselves when we know we (or a loved one) are dieng

[psyche101]

Religion will always exist.

Lets hope not. Sad to think man is stuck in such a rut forever. It would detract from the meaningfulness of existence itself.

It's a form of 'organized spirituality'. Many people intuitively realize that life and the Universe aren't the product of blind, random processes.

Imagination has to start some place, and we like to have authority figures not only to tell us what to do, but to reward us, it is how we have been wired during our rise to intelligence. It allowed for clans to exist with a protector who could organise better societies. The best thing relgion ever provided was a model to question, and now that we have, some sticks in the mud refuse to allow mankind to further the species and try to keep us in this religious rut.

Call it God, YAHWE, Allah, Brahma or Buddha they all express similar feelings in the end. But of course not really knowing what it's all about can cause a great deal of anxiety.

That bolsters the above. We desire someone to make things safer, right and good.

Knowing cannot come from philosophy. And what we do know, people such as yourself refuse to entertain in favour of personal interpretation of data.

Which is why I think certain people, in religion, cling to dogmas and irrational doctrines as a way to quell the existantial angst.

It's just masking the problems we face in reality though.

[Mr Walker]

Hmmm, why did God prevent you from having children of your own and why did God give you heart issues that you had to have surgery for?

It doesn't sound like god has protected you any more than anyone else, it sounds like the harsh realities of life hit you too.

Mmm god had nothing to do with these things. Genetics in my wifes family and in my own caused both these things (her sisters also could not have children while both my parents had serious heart problems)

But as you KNOW from earlier posts, god gave us the way to use our lives to help others. He encouraged us to use the opportunities afforded by our chidllessness to care for other people both children and elderly and so we spent 40 years caring for homeless children over two genrations He showed us how to make lemonade from life's lemons.

God sent an angel to the hospital to reassure me and to keep me from being lonely or afraid, while i was waiting for the surgeons to operate.

In other words god does what he can with the material he has. Open your self to god and you will be empowered.

Ive seen childless couples torn to pieces, and marriages ended, because they could not deal with their inability to have kids. I've seen them spend a fortune on IVF with little success yet we have a dozen "children" and "grandchildren" who love us and still are close to us.

I have seen brave men quail at the thought of open heart surgery I faced it without fear and with the knowledge tha t i would be fine because in gods own words he was with me watching over me and no harm would come to me.(the message the angel delivered) After the operation i was able to go off codeine several days before other patients operated on at the same time, because god took away the worst of the pain. (or in a clinical sense my lack of stress fear and mental calmness brought about by the presence of god with me ) significantly reduced the perception/feeling of pain and, under a self medicating regime, this allowed me to alter my dosages as i wanted to.

I think you are using personal snippets of my life and interpreting them as YOU might see them

We also lost everything we owned in a major fire remember, yet god came and warned us enabling us to flee jus tin time. He stood right next to us and protected us and he guaranteed verbally that neither of us would be harmed and he kept that promise. .

His presence influenced my psychological responses so that, during the fire, i remained totally calm and unafraid, even driving through flames and dense smoke. He stayed with us after wards so we had no sense of loss or grief but rather a sense of joy peace and connection. He taught us that this was a liberating empowering event which showed us that we had no need of material possessions to be happy, that possessions could be a tie or a trap, and that our community loved and respected us so much that it would support and protect us in a time of need, giving us everything we needed to survive in the short term.

You/ve picked the wrong person/example to argue about the physical power of gods protection and ability. This sort of protection/empowerment is available to anyone and some take it up. Survivors of both heart surgery and bushfires often relate very similar experiences with the power and presence of god.

In my case god ALSO gave me precognitive dreams and physical and verbal warnings of both dangers in time to take action, which helped me recognise and respond to them and survive them. . Illness sickness loss etc are not harsh unless you let them be.

I have never been happier (or more free) in my life since my adolescent days, than after we lost everything we owned , because i was shown how much we were loved and cared about, for example, and i was liberated from the ownership and ties of material things. We simply no longer owned anything.

I found a lot of positives in the whole heart thing, including getting fit afterwards and evaluating my life and priorities In a sense this is ALSO the protection and empowerment god provides through resetting your priorities and values in life. I honestly don't see those experiences as negatives, but as significant positives.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

No, that canot be right, why do animals suffer as a way of life, what sort of twisted mind would "design" things like Ichneumonidae, which had a huge impact on Darwin's religious views:

I own that I cannot see as plainly as others do, and as I should wish to do, evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.

LINK

But if its a product of evolution, it is fine and dandy?

If that is the best evolution can do, why(hypothetically) blame a god for not being able to do better?

Why hold a god to a higher standard than nature or natural selection/evolutionary forces. Do you rage at the evil inherent in evolution for causing such pain and suffering?

[barbco196]

Are you sure? You are not being asked to speak for others. Why did you make it a point to say how the examples of experiences that NW mention, you don't experience? That is speaking for others, right? Barbco, I don't know how you see it. The question was on God's consistency of who he helps and why. God helps you, that's great. But you observed and claim that you don't suffer what those in NW's examples suffer. You say it's between them and God. What is your point with that? It's not asking you to get into their minds. It's saying why is it God helps you, but not them? I don't think you can dismiss it as 'it's between them'. Because, most of the time, they didn't do anything to deserve it. In fact, I would think you would be a little worried that God doesn't come through all of the time.

Do you think that those who suffer bad situations, as evil and deserving it? For me, I would not say this as all of the time, with all of them. I have seen bad things happen to good people who probably wonder where was God?

And on that point, if you had cancer, and you asked God why? You do have the confidence he will answer? ( I have a feeling you're going to say yes, and I would think that it's the way he answered, and I would understand that ) But, what about a loved one of your's who suffers, would you ask God why you have been treated well, but your loved one, who is a good person, is not?

It's like what I mentioned with the friend who was disappointed that they weren't the only ones who was coming through the Y2K living it up, while the rest of the town was suffering. Should she consider that's it's only between the town's folk and God?

I think, what this is about is the subject of the consistency of what God does, and those who feels good about them not suffering, but not caring if others do, because it's between them and God.

If I boil it down to another way of saying it. Wouldn't we all want not just ourselves, but everyone else be happy and not suffer? Wouldn't God want this too?

Yes, I'm sure I was being baited. You don't ask someone a question that you know there isn't an answer to, unless you have ulterior motives. My comment did not in any way mean that I think someone deserves those horrible things. It simply meant they will have to ask God themselves. Nothing more.

[barbco196]

So wait...everyone who DOES get cancer...obviously those are the bad people without God on their side?

Wow.

Ya, that's exactly what I meant. There's a few of you on here that like to stir the pot. No surprise to me.

[barbco196]

That wasn't the message i got at all. She didnt KNOW why others suffered while she does not .

A person who is one with god simply has no need to suffer. Not even when they are dieng, or their loved ones are dieing For such people, death is nothing to fear and the connection to god stops fear, separation anxiety, guilt, loneliness etc., all of which make suffering and pain more severe for a human being . A relationship with a living god puts one above or apart from such suffering. if you find that arrogant you don't comprehend the empowerment a connection to god can give a human being. We all die. God gives us the abilty to die without fear and hence without a lot of the pain and suffering which we construct for ourselves when we know we (or a loved one) are dieng

Wow! Looks like someone understood. Chaos, don't assume anything about me. Cancer has touched my life very profoundly and very recently, so you can leave your snarky comments out of the discussion.

[barbco196]

You know it's just the arrogance of it that I can't stand. I must be right because bad things don't happen to me. You should think like me and then bad things wouldn't happen to you. It's your fault bad things happen to you because you don't think like me.

And all of those poor children dying of starvation and horrible diseases...I guess it's their fault, too.

Maybe what you are so quick to call arrogant, is really just your clouded misinterpretation? You certainly jumped to your own conclusion with me. Try understanding and asking questions instead of judging so quickly.

[jps]

I must admit reading all these comments just makes me more confused……and so the rollercoaster continues:

I was brought up in a high control religion but, ultimately disappointed by the dogmatic approach and God not protecting us spiritually/physically even though we gave our lives to him, I left. I Got confused by the concept of the Holy Spirit and how it/he works, never felt any connection. Then I started to wonder why most of the promises are for the future, after we die, or after the world ends? He doesn’t help a child praying to him for help with all their heart in times of dire need, how can that be? Ended up blaming myself for not being good enough. Enter major depression.

Then I proceeded to shun organised religion and tried to find God myself, which ended up destroying my relationship with my mom. I remember going to her house and her not even wanting to see me! Heart-breaking and lasted for years

Then I decided to look at things that can be proven instead of hearsay and untestable ideas and promises, and tried to figure out what’s going on by looking at science, reading some non-religious books, considering evolution etc. I must say this was very exciting because evolution used to be a swear word to me. I ended up seriously doubting the existence of any God. I thought that if millions of years ago animals and creatures were killing each other (being eaten alive and all that), and it is still happening today, there must be something seriously wrong with the way religion has taught us to see the world.

Now I am at a stage where I doubt the existence of God, but dearly miss a saviour. So currently I’m trying to reconcile science/evolution and God in some way.

That’s the rollercoaster I’m on. My point is that it has become harder and harder to be religious for me in light of scientific facts, because religion is based on old tales and stories which are actually only hearsay if you think about it. God has never opened the clouds and shone a light on me, and directly talked to me, or given me any instructions. He has never said the words I LOVE YOU directly to me! I have to trust ancient texts or a pastors claims to believe he does. Hearsay! I don’t know how anybody can have any argument (even be prepared to die for) with quotes from old texts which are actually not first-hand information. If it is not first-hand how can you possibly comprehend the influences, interpretation and manipulation( possibly with bad intent) that those texts or stories have undergone over the years?

I ask myself: Has God or my deity told me the texts are his word directly, or have the texts themselves claimed to be inspired? Maybe that’s why those texts contain things that are un-reconcilable with a loving God.

In my opinion religion will decline as science advances. Maybe science is the filter through which religion needs to pass so we can at last find the truth and God…….