Is religion about to die out?

[Doug1029]

I did attend a non-denominational church for a short time that I really enjoyed and I had a pastor that welcomed my incessant questioning.

Question everything. Truth will out.

Doug

[+Hammerclaw]

This seems to be a regular complaint of yours Hammer, if you have something more challenging, then please offer it up.

Are you just an animal? Keep in mind the only correct scientific answer is yes. No Heaven no Hell, no afterlife of any kind no karma, no reincarnation no soul, especially no soul; Science

doesn't recognize the existence of any such thing. You are born, you live you die and the lifeless husk that once was you rots and breaks down into it's constituent elements and that's it for you; finis.

Are you just an animal, Liquid Gardens, a soulless beast whose existence holds no more significance than that of a garden snail?

Edited May 13, 2016 by Hammerclaw

[+Liquid Gardens]

Are you just an animal? Keep in mind the only correct scientific answer is yes.

I disagree, because of the loaded word 'just'. Are we both animals? Of course, by definition. Is a rose 'just' a plant? No, a rose is beautiful and fragrant, even though it is a plant. Is music 'just' sounds? No, it contains patterns and in humans invokes an emotional response; yet it's still composed of 'just' sound. Yes, I guess we are 'just' animals that just happen to be able to do unique and wonderful and terrible things; it is those things that I think strain the attachment of the word 'just'.

No Heaven no Hell, no afterlife of any kind no karma, no reincarnation no soul, especially no soul; Science doesn't recognize the existence of any such thing.

That would be because there's no evidence for any of that. Similarly there doesn't appear to be any fairies or dragons or Santa either but I doubt that dismays you, so why should the apparent lack of existence of soul be any different?

You are born, you live you die and the lifeless husk that once was you rots and breaks down into it's constituent elements and that's it for you; finis.

Are you just an animal, Liquid Gardens, a soulless beast whose existence holds no more significance than that of a garden snail?

Define 'significance', with relation to what? My life has more significance to me and my loved ones than a garden snail, and the garden snail's life has more significance to the plants (ha, more like 'weeds') growing in my 'garden'.

Does life lack significance to you if you don't get to live forever, if there's no karma, heaven, hell, or soul? What specifically about any of that provides 'significance'? Isn't your answer going to be 100% subjective to Hammerclaw? Do you have some way of rebutting, 'my life has significance because I am thankful for the life I have, I can share my love with my family and friends, I can enjoy laughs and endure my sorrows'? Love and laughs and making people happy have no 'significance' unless I have a soul and live forever and the ultimate reality conforms to what I want, Hammerclaw? I find that very bleak; love and laughs are their own reward, regardless of any eternal or non-eternal context. You can even make the argument that they are more significant and precious specifically because we are finite.

(Seriously, thanks for the 1000 times more interesting comment! I am interested in your thoughts on how our death eliminates significance, it's a common comment by lots of people and at maybe a surface level I understand it but when I think about it more deeply it falls apart for me.)

[Grandpa Greenman]

Are you just an animal? Keep in mind the only correct scientific answer is yes. No Heaven no Hell, no afterlife of any kind no karma, no reincarnation no soul, especially no soul; Science

doesn't recognize the existence of any such thing. You are born, you live you die and the lifeless husk that once was you rots and breaks down into it's constituent elements and that's it for you; finis.

Are you just an animal, Liquid Gardens, a soulless beast whose existence holds no more significance than that of a garden snail?

I know you are addressing LG, but I got to get in. Yes, I am a beast, to say whether or not I am soulless you have to tell me what a soul is first. I am a self aware beast, so that does put me in with elephants, whales, dolphins, some birds, and apes. But does that mean they also have souls, because they are self aware? If I was a Buddhist or a Hindu, I would say a snail has a soul. For me, I first have to know what a soul is before I can say whether I or anything else has a soul. It comes down to the the old STNG question, "Does Data have a soul?"

[Podo]

Are you just an animal? Keep in mind the only correct scientific answer is yes. No Heaven no Hell, no afterlife of any kind no karma, no reincarnation no soul, especially no soul; Science

doesn't recognize the existence of any such thing. You are born, you live you die and the lifeless husk that once was you rots and breaks down into it's constituent elements and that's it for you; finis.

Are you just an animal, Liquid Gardens, a soulless beast whose existence holds no more significance than that of a garden snail?

I haven't paid attention to your interaction with LG, so I'm not commenting on it. But, you've described my worldview perfectly in your attached post. We're all just animals, soulless beasts whose existences are only more significant than a garden snail insofar as we have the intelligence and self awareness to understand our own pointlessness.

[+Hammerclaw]

I disagree, because of the loaded word 'just'. Are we both animals? Of course, by definition. Is a rose 'just' a plant? No, a rose is beautiful and fragrant, even though it is a plant. Is music 'just' sounds? No, it contains patterns and in humans invokes an emotional response; yet it's still composed of 'just' sound. Yes, I guess we are 'just' animals that just happen to be able to do unique and wonderful and terrible things; it is those things that I think strain the attachment of the word 'just'.

That would be because there's no evidence for any of that. Similarly there doesn't appear to be any fairies or dragons or Santa either but I doubt that dismays you, so why should the apparent lack of existence of soul be any different?

Define 'significance', with relation to what? My life has more significance to me and my loved ones than a garden snail, and the garden snail's life has more significance to the plants (ha, more like 'weeds') growing in my 'garden'.

Does life lack significance to you if you don't get to live forever, if there's no karma, heaven, hell, or soul? What specifically about any of that provides 'significance'? Isn't your answer going to be 100% subjective to Hammerclaw? Do you have some way of rebutting, 'my life has significance because I am thankful for the life I have, I can share my love with my family and friends, I can enjoy laughs and endure my sorrows'? Love and laughs and making people happy have no 'significance' unless I have a soul and live forever and the ultimate reality conforms to what I want, Hammerclaw? I find that very bleak; love and laughs are their own reward, regardless of any eternal or non-eternal context. You can even make the argument that they are more significant and precious specifically because we are finite.

(Seriously, thanks for the 1000 times more interesting comment! I am interested in your thoughts on how our death eliminates significance, it's a common comment by lots of people and at maybe a surface level I understand it but when I think about it more deeply it falls apart for me.)

A very nice tap dance and parsing of words all the while evading giving an answer--emotionalism doesn't qualify as answer. Are you nothing more than an animal, as we observe animals to exist, persist, then exist no more. Is there nothing else but that for you except your emotional take on your brief existence, numbered in revolutions around our star. Is that all you are? Edited May 13, 2016 by Hammerclaw

[Mr Walker]

I wasn't the one placing blame. That was barbco. Why don't you ask her who's at fault?

The message she's sending by saying that nothing bad happens to her because God is on her side...is that everyone who has something bad happen to them does not have God on their side.

That is the message you are receiving. She has already stated it was NOT the message she was sending or had in her mind. There is a difference between a person being under the protection of god and knowing this, and any thought that others are not protected because they are some how lesser humans or don't deserve protection.

Heck i can only guess why god took an interest in me and protects me, and i wouldnt hazard a guess at why others do not ALL have the same protection Theoretically all humana re the same and each one of us has the potential for the same connection to and protection from gods presence.

One can logically deduce a few things eg if you LISTEN to gods words advice and teachings in any decent religion or faith, and follow them, this will reduce your risk of harm in life. If you don't steal you wont be at as much risk as one who does. if you don't commit adultery you wont be at as much risk as one who does.

On the other hand if you act with love and respect to those around you, you will be treated with love and respect thus improving your life. Religions Do teach us that we are acountable for our actions and that actions have consequences.

But many people are hurt without any cause They are innocent victims of the flaws of nature or of other human beings.

One can scientifically understand how faith belief etc give better statistical outcomes in physical and psychological health to humans who are hurt by nature or other people.

It is harder to comprehend why one person can know and appreciate all this and respond to it, while another cannot do so. ie why one person can be strengthened empowered and healed by the presence of god or by faith in god while another cannot sense or believe in gods presence and thus cannot gain those benefits. Is this gods 'fault", the persons "failing, or a natural consequence of human self aware consciousness and the feedback loops it creates between mind and body.? So that, for example, guilt creates stress/anxiety and stress/anxiety affects our health in many physical ways. Anger also damages mind and body in quite physical and measurable ways. If belief in god reduces or eliminates stress or anger a person already has a measurable advantage in life if they have faith.

It is true that nothing "bad' happens to me. However in part as i pointed out to sherapy that is because I redefine the meaning of bad The loss of our house and everything we owned wasn't a bad thing or a bad outcome, in my mind,

The death of a loved one isnt bad or traumatic. I lost my father in part due to the errors of heart specialists, who gave him too much anaesthetic (although he had a failing kidney and the outcome was always going to be problematic) but i don't blame them,, or hold any anger or negativity for them.

To me, facing a major heart operation wasn't a bad experience but a positive one, and even though it was very painful for a while afterwards that wasn't bad either Pain was an indicator i was alive and healing.

They are all just experiences and i deal with them through a mindset which has a connection to god/ the universal cosmic consciousness. This gives me a different perspective on such things.

So i see them as natural consequence/ learning experiences /opportunities for growth. etc

Edited May 13, 2016 by Mr Walker

[+Hammerclaw]

I haven't paid attention to your interaction with LG, so I'm not commenting on it. But, you've described my worldview perfectly in your attached post. We're all just animals, soulless beasts whose existences are only more significant than a garden snail insofar as we have the intelligence and self awareness to understand our own pointlessness.

A rather pointless and needlessly cruel understanding--from your point-of-view.

[+Liquid Gardens]

A very nice tap dance and parsing of words all the while evading giving and answer--emotionalism doesn't qualify as answer. Are you nothing more than an animal, as we observe animals to exist, persist, then exist no more. Is there nothing else but that for you except your emotional take on your brief existence, numbered in revolutions around our star. Is that all you are?

Now now, I asked you lots of questions where you could provide some clarity as to what you are talking about, that's not tap dancing. Yes, I guess you and I are both 'nothing' more than animals; what else could we be? And again, please give me an example of something that does provide 'significance' and more importantly, why?

[+Liquid Gardens]

We're all just animals, soulless beasts whose existences are only more significant than a garden snail insofar as we have the intelligence and self awareness to understand our own pointlessness.

I guess I'll ask the same question of you Podo, if you think we are pointless, can you provide an example of something that could provide 'a point', and why does it do so?

[Podo]

A rather pointless and needlessly cruel understanding--from your point-of-view.

Cruel? Needless? I don't think so. It's just reality. I have never observed anything akin to a purpose in this life, nor have I seen anything that separates us from any other lifeform. We live, we breed, and we die. That's it. Anything else we do is merely what we make of it.

[Podo]

I guess I'll ask the same question of you Podo, if you think we are pointless, can you provide an example of something that could provide 'a point', and why does it do so?

I'm not entirely sure I understand the question, but I'll try my best

I don't think anything could give us an objective "point." I think that individuals create their own reason for living, as we are fortunate to be conscious enough to do so. But on the whole, as a species? I can't think of anything that sets us apart from any other animal, so I really don't know how we could achieve a species-wide "purpose" beyond what we share with every other living being: live, breed, die.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Podo

[+Hammerclaw]

I know you are addressing LG, but I got to get in. Yes, I am a beast, to say whether or not I am soulless you have to tell me what a soul is first. I am a self aware beast, so that does put me in with elephants, whales, dolphins, some birds, and apes. But does that mean they also have souls, because they are self aware? If I was a Buddhist or a Hindu, I would say a snail has a soul. For me, I first have to know what a soul is before I can say whether I or anything else has a soul. It comes down to the the old STNG question, "Does Data have a soul?"

Since I know you believe in things unscientific in nature, There's no need be coy about it. We both believe in things unseen--it's just a difference in favorite fairy tales--that's all.

[+Liquid Gardens]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the question, but I'll try my best

I don't think anything could give is an objective "point." I think that individuals create their own reason for living, as we are fortunate to be conscious enough to do so. But on the whole, as a species? I can't think of anything that sets us apart from any other animal, so I really don't know how we could achieve a species-wide "purpose" beyond what we share with every other living being: live, breed, die.

Maybe my 'point' ha was that if there is no scenario where you could have 'a point', then saying 'our lives are pointless' doesn't mean so much. And when I ask if you can think of something that would make our lives not 'pointless', I mean without regards to our current reality. If you lived forever, or could magically heal people, or were God himself, would that evade the 'pointlessness' of your existence?

[+Hammerclaw]

Cruel? Needless? I don't think so. It's just reality. I have never observed anything akin to a purpose in this life, nor have I seen anything that separates us from any other lifeform. We live, we breed, and we die. That's it. Anything else we do is merely what we make of it.

I hope that brings you comfort when you look your own death in the face--and you will. There'll be nothing abstract or philosophical about it then. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die is great philosophy--'til you get to the dying part. Edited May 14, 2016 by Hammerclaw

[Podo]

Maybe my 'point' ha was that if there is no scenario where you could have 'a point', then saying 'our lives are pointless' doesn't mean so much.

I would actually agree with this, which is why I don't think that my worldview is negative. It is simply the state of things; we make our own reasons, and dictate our own goals. Our lives are inherently pointless, which gives the control to us.

And when I ask if you can think of something that would make our lives not 'pointless', I mean without regards to our current reality. If you lived forever, or could magically heal people, or were God himself, would that evade the 'pointlessness' of your existence?

Hmm. I think for a life to be more than pointless, it would need to have an impact on a universal scale. Tossing all semblance of logic or reality out the window, if an individual was able to objectively improve the lives of millions of civilisations across the multiverse in some way, that individual would have a meaningful existence, as it would be the only being that could do what it does.

[Podo]

I hope that brings you comfort when you look your own death in the face--and you will. There'll be nothing abstract or philosophical about it then. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die is great philosophy--'til you get to the dying part.

Brother, I've had a tumour/cancer scare already, one that could have been malignant, and had to live through two weeks (waiting for test results) of being convinced I was possibly a dead man walking. I was also born with very brittle bones and broke my ribcage bad enough to potentially not survive, as it had collapsed a lung, when I was a child. I've stared death in the face multiple times. I'm not a hedonist by any means, but life is far too important to be taken seriously. Sooner or later the lights will go out for all of us, and that's fine. I sure won't care after it happens, because I'll be dead!

It's not as though I don't think that we can't lead individually meaningful lives. I just don't see any human life as inherently important. Nothing separates us from any other lifeform. Just as the chicken I ate for dinner went into the void, so shall I, and you, and everyone. If the chicken can handle it without whining at its pointlessness, I surely can endure the same thing

[Mr Walker]

I was born with a bi-lateral cleft lip and palate, jaundice, brittle bones, and a septum so deviated that I couldn't breathe out of my nose until I was 20, had stopped growing, and the surgeons could correct it with surgery. I've lived a life of dozens of surgeries, treatments, and corrections.

Her god must have really had it in for me!

You are alive, you have an agile mind, and clearly a well developed sense of humour. What you make of your life is up to you, and how you think of yourself, your advantages and disadvantages is again entirely up to you

It is easy for me to sound hypocrtical because i have few physical problems, but I have always been smaller than those around me, was bullied at school unti i was about 14/15, and tha t could have shaped my life. In a sense it did, because i simply adapted to it compensated for it, and made it irrelavant to who and what i am. I became strong enough physically and mentally through physical and mental exercise and discipline that at a certain point, even though I was still smaller, my class mates stopped the bullying,

I dont have a "small mans syndrome" and i am no "dwarf" but my size could have defined me if I'd let it do so.

My little brother whom i slept along side of for many years had terrible asthma which nearly killed him when he was young. Many nights he struggled to breathe and stay alive, He did not let this define him, and in his sixties is a qualified dive instructor, runs 10 kilometres every day, and is in the top 5% of fitness levels for his age.

[+Liquid Gardens]

I hope that brings you comfort when you look your own death in the face--and you will. There'll be nothing abstract or philosophical about it then. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die is great philosophy--'til you get to the dying part.

I think you're presuming way too much about how people view death. I personally find great comfort in dealing with reality as it appears to be as opposed to how I might want it to be, and don't find 'but I might really die someday' to be much more of a buzzkill than 'but there's no Santa'. I've had a few days where death kinda sounds like a welcome peace.

And 'eat, drink, and be merry' is a great philosophy period, the status of 'death' is irrelevant to that.

[+Hammerclaw]

Brother, I've had a tumour/cancer scare already, one that could have been malignant, and had to live through two weeks (waiting for test results) of being convinced I was possibly a dead man walking. I was also born with very brittle bones and broke my ribcage bad enough to potentially not survive, as it had collapsed a lung, when I was a child. I've stared death in the face multiple times. I'm not a hedonist by any means, but life is far too important to be taken seriously. Sooner or later the lights will go out for all of us, and that's fine. I sure won't care after it happens, because I'll be dead!

It's not as though I don't think that we can't lead individually meaningful lives. I just don't see any human life as inherently important. Nothing separates us from any other lifeform. Just as the chicken I ate for dinner went into the void, so shall I, and you, and everyone. If the chicken can handle it without whining at its pointlessness, I surely can endure the same thing

It's seems very important for you to give the appearance you can--much like my youngest brother. He's always been more concern about people's perception of him and not so much about the reality behind the façade. I do hope, in your case, you're every bit as tough as the image you project. Edited May 14, 2016 by Hammerclaw

[+Hammerclaw]

I think you're presuming way too much about how people view death. I personally find great comfort in dealing with reality as it appears to be as opposed to how I might want it to be, and don't find 'but I might really die someday' to be much more of a buzzkill than 'but there's no Santa'. I've had a few days where death kinda sounds like a welcome peace.

And 'eat, drink, and be merry' is a great philosophy period, the status of 'death' is irrelevant to that.

It always is--at arm's length. Are you ever going to answer my question?

[Podo]

It's seems very important for you to give the appearance you can--much like my youngest brother. He's always been more concern about people's perception of him and not so much about the reality behind the façade. I do hope, in your case, you're every bit as tough as the image you project.

It is not about being tough, it is about acceptance of reality. Death is scary, and nothing will change that. Believing that our lives have value has no effect on fear of the void. I'm still afraid of death, I won't pretend otherwise. But I've had to face it twice now, and while it is scary, its not something anyone can affect. One does not need to be "tough" to understand that nothing separates us from the beasts.

[Mr Walker]

I know you are addressing LG, but I got to get in. Yes, I am a beast, to say whether or not I am soulless you have to tell me what a soul is first. I am a self aware beast, so that does put me in with elephants, whales, dolphins, some birds, and apes. But does that mean they also have souls, because they are self aware? If I was a Buddhist or a Hindu, I would say a snail has a soul. For me, I first have to know what a soul is before I can say whether I or anything else has a soul. It comes down to the the old STNG question, "Does Data have a soul?"

It is not the possesion of a soul which defines us and differentiates us from other animals but the awareness of the existence of our souls and our abilty to even conceptualise verbalise and debate the existence of our souls No other animal can do this and THAT is the basic difference. Hence only humans demonstrate any identifiable form of expression of belief via ceremony, ritual, artefacts, etc

The knowledge of ones own mortality is a abstract mental construct of language. Without an adequate "language of the mind" an entity cannot even know or understand the differences between the conditions of life and death, let alone ponder on it ,think about it ,question it or construct beliefs about it.

So a snail cant have a soul because a soul is an artefact or construct of a certain level of self aware intelligence.Some primates dolphins and other animals may be getting close to this abilty but aren't offering any observable evidences that they have evolved souls. Even an artificial intelligence if truly self ware will posses a soul. ie it will feel guilt, consciously recognise its own feelings, have a conscience, make choices based on an informed understanding of consequences. etc.

[+Hammerclaw]

It is not about being tough, it is about acceptance of reality. Death is scary, and nothing will change that. Believing that our lives have value has no effect on fear of the void. I'm still afraid of death, I won't pretend otherwise. But I've had to face it twice now, and while it is scary, its not something anyone can affect. One does not need to be "tough" to understand that nothing separates us from the beasts.

Au contraire, mon ami, that takes courage, which I admire, 'though I disagree.

[+Liquid Gardens]

I would actually agree with this, which is why I don't think that my worldview is negative. It is simply the state of things; we make our own reasons, and dictate our own goals. Our lives are inherently pointless, which gives the control to us

Can't argue with that, but I think one thing we can control is whether our lives have a point or not, I'm not sure it's even valid to say 'life is pointless' without also including the words '.. to me'.

Hmm. I think for a life to be more than pointless, it would need to have an impact on a universal scale. Tossing all semblance of logic or reality out the window, if an individual was able to objectively improve the lives of millions of civilisations across the multiverse in some way, that individual would have a meaningful existence, as it would be the only being that could do what it does.

That would be great. But why should it take the absolute ultimate 'goodness' to counteract pointlessness, why is that spectrum so massively skewed? When we start invoking scales, then it asks for then just how 'universal' the goodness needs to be. If we just impacted 50% of the universe, that doesn't provide enough point? Just the earth, cure all disease or something, pointless because it's not a big enough scale? I see no reason we can't likewise argue that pointlessness is that the other end of the scale, I see pointfulness in just giving my cat a treat and playing with her. It seems that it's entirely an individual call; some will find everything pointless if we don't get to live forever blissfully with the eternal all-powerful personification of love and goodness, for some their lives are pointless because they are not in love with somebody, for some because they had no kids, etc. As a baseline, I think a good enough point is to experience life, we are the apparently rare example of the universe experiencing itself, and no one will experience it like me; that's divine enough, and doesn't require me hoping for something else to exist that there's no evidence for.