The Value of Answers

[Podo]

I beg to differ. Podo, we just don't know. We can only ever come to a conclusion based on what we observe and are taught. God is very real and the effects of God are just as observable to me. I don't need science to 'prove' anything. If you take the entire universe down to the nuts and bolts, down to the quantum level, NOTHING is real. Only our perception, our consciousness. The day science can tell me what consciousness is and from where it derives, I will give them ALL of my attention and praise.

By your same logic then, you can't possibly say "god is very real" with any level of validity because, as you say, you "just don't know."

But, you also have said that you don't need proof, so that really brings an end to this discourse.

[barbco196]

In an abstract sense, I suppose so. But there is currently no reason to believe that any such dimension exists, as there is not a shred of evidence supporting such existence. If that changes? Absolutely, let's explore it. But right now it is nothing more than a philosophical concept.

There is such a field and we are starting to explore it: neurotheology.

[barbco196]

By your same logic then, you can't possibly say "god is very real" with any level of validity because, as you say, you "just don't know."

But, you also have said that you don't need proof, so that really brings an end to this discourse.

I have never claimed to be 100% certain about anything, including God. I can only reach conclusions based off of my experiences.

[Doug1029]

There is such a field and we are starting to explore it: neurotheology.

Do you have a journal? Where can I find it?

There seems to be less than 100% acceptance of it as a science:

McKinney, L. O. 1994. Neurotheology: virtual religion in the 21st century. American Institute of Mindfulness.

Doug

Edited May 12, 2016 by Doug1029

[barbco196]

Do you have a journal? Where can I find it?

There seems to be less than 100% acceptance of it as a science:

McKinney, L. O. 1994. Neurotheology: virtual religion in the 21st century. American Institute of Mindfulness.

Doug

I only became privy to this info after watching The Story of God. Dr. Andrew Newberg was the doctors name that was conducting the research they discussed on the show.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Hawkins:

You can also make up a history book. So? Does it mean that all history books can't be true?

It wouldn't be called a history book, if it wasn't true. So, that line doesn't make sense.

Podo:

barbco:

I will NEVER claim The Bible is more valid than any other religious text. I will only say The Bible is more valid to ME.

That is a level of self-awareness that very, very few religious people have. I support it. I still think you're wasting your time with faith, but I can respect that you don't hold your chosen culture's myths above anyone else's.

Everyone, I find understandable, will feel certain things of the tasks and such of others, but if it works for them, I don't find that a waste of time.

Sorry, Podo, I hope I didn't offend. *cringes*

barbco:

Wasting my time? Why would you think that? Even if I come to the end of my life and POOF!, lights go out, nothing more; my faith would never have been a waste of time. I've moved mountains with that faith.

Now, that's an honest way of looking at it.

My point is that we know very little. There is a whole field out there waiting to be explored and MOST scientists are too arrogant to give it the time of day because it is beyond their scope of knowledge.

Where do you see this?

I ask, because there are younger generations in my family in close to that career field, and they have a more clear and honest way of going about it. I do not see any arrogance in it at all. Maybe, that's just me, I guess. *shrugs*

Podo:

I think that because faith in an untrue thing, to me, is one of the worst wastes of time imaginable. True belief in a concept that there is absolutely no evidence suggesting even exists...well, that seems crazy to me. I don't get it. I want to, because it interests me from an academic perspective, but I just can't wrap my head around devotion to mythology. It's the same as if someone told me that they genuinely believed in baphomet, or Tezcatlipoca, or Odin.

I find that honest. Though, why must one use their point of view, to someone else's subjective situations?

Isn't this the case with us all? Some do things, the otherd don't understand. In essence, if we look beyond that, new ideas come up.

Doug:

The problem with studying religion/faith from a scientific POV is that there's very little to study. We can't even be sure it's real. The universe seems to be able to function just fine without a god - at least, there's no evidence that one is necessary. As for heaven - to paraphrase Carl Sagan - at least out to 10 billion light years, there's no evidence of one.

Check out Davros' "Holy Dopamine Ghost" thread. That's a start. Apparently, religion/faith comes down to a chemical process.

We have a few studies that prayer actually works to improve the condition of critically ill patients. But that's close friends and family members only - doesn't seem to work when strangers pray. That certainly supports your "we know very little" statement.

My great disappointment in the mainline churches is that instead of supporting studies that would shed light on prayer/faith/Jesus, they prefer to avoid such things. Maybe there's evidence out there somewhere that Jesus really lived. What would it mean if we found it?

The other great problem with serious studies of faith/god: funding. Who's going to pay for it? Can't use public funds due to the separation of church and state. What if we turned up evidence that god doesn't exist? What church is going to want that? On the other hand, what if we turned up evidence that Mohamed was right all along? Are mainline Protestant churches going to endorse a study that shows they're wrong?

Yet, that's science. The reason we do tests and studies is because we don't know the answers. If we know the answer already, as most churches think they do, then there's no reason to do a study.

Doug

Wow!

What a way to show how important and a great starting point for science, the term, 'I don't know' is.

I love that.

barbco:

Holy dopamine ghost? Really? That's just his way of explaining something he hasn't directly experienced. Please tell me you don't read posts like his and accept them as factual? It is just an opinion, like every other post on here.

When I read davros's posts, I get him point to a particular point of view, that shows he has experienced. I see him making certain points with backed up sources and links. He goes through the work to show why he comes to his conclusions.

He and I, have had very intense debates on certain points, but only because we both come up with how we see differently on certain things. The thing is, it's about discussing and reflecting on the idea of what he perceives and what he got from experiences and research.

Edit: Ok, if it looks like there might be quotes that came from other threads, please it out to me. It's the way I use text to organize my posts. I'm afraid there's a stowaway post from another thread.

I think....................

Edited May 12, 2016 by Stubbly_Dooright

[Podo]

Podo: Everyone, I find understandable, will feel certain things of the tasks and such of others, but if it works for them, I don't find that a waste of time.

Sorry, Podo, I hope I didn't offend. *cringes*

You are more personable than I am. I have difficulty conceptualizing some concepts, and devotion to an unproven thing is one of those things. You did not offend me, don't worry. Offending me is really difficult and usually requires intent. You're sailing clear

Podo: I find that honest. Though, why must one use their point of view, to someone else's subjective situations?

Isn't this the case with us all? Some do things, the otherd don't understand. In essence, if we look beyond that, new ideas come up.

Because in the case of religion, the subjective beliefs of religious types are used as justification for actions that affect those who do not share their subjective belief in their deity. If religion was a purely internal thing that was never externalized into the world around the believer, I'd have no problem with it. But, in practice, and for all of human history, religious belief has been very extroverted, causing those subjectivities to affect the world around them.

[Mr Walker]

This is a question primarily for the religious types.

What is the motivation to seek answers for life, the universe, and everything from a book, set of books, or philosophy? What do the mythologies of millennia-dead cultures offer that modern scientific accomplishments and knowledge bases do not? And in the case of things that we do not have answers for, such as the origins of the universe or origins of life, why is "I don't know" an unacceptable answer? I have conversed with many religious types, both here and in meatspace, who cannot accept "I don't know" as an answer; if we don't testably have a thing verified, they try to shove their deity of choice into the equation as a default explanation.

Is it a comfort thing? Is it a fear of death thing? What motivates you to holy ancient works of literature to the highest esteem? I don't care so much what you believe, but I want to understand WHY you believe it.

Human writings do the best job possible of storing and transmitting knowldge and understandings gained by other people. While personal experience is the best educator, knowledge and understanding from books is also great and very useful. As a kid i learned how to construct gunpowder and make explosive devices simply by reading books both fiction and factual. i learned how to be courageous chivalrous romantic etc from the characters i read about, as well as from my parents' examples. As we read the philosophies and understandings of others, we learn not only their individual understandings, but also a broader sociological understanding of what it means to be human.

i get a lot from all books, including the bible, and i live by some of the knowledge and understandings i have gained from books over 6 decades of reading. BUT i always test and customise what i read to tailor it to my own nature and life. Modern science and technology actually offers us nothing in terms of understanding our selves or in creating ethical and moral principles. It does however make our lives longer safer less painfull etc But it doesn't really make us any happier, given that suicide is now higher in developed countries than it ever was and is the biggest killer of men under about 40 in australia. Sceince doesn't give us/provide us with essential human needs like a sense of purpose/pride, a sense of belonging including a sense of family and community, or connection to our space and place.

In some senses, modern living, enabled by modern science, tears down those connections, separating families, communities and societies, and individualising the human experience. We are not evolved to live as individuals but within a band of fellow primates.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

As a irreligious student of religions: There is only one explanation, the fear that it will be over some day. And I don't see what the problem is, it is limited and you are going to croak some day anyway... regardless of what you believe... or not.

Actually a lot of religions, including Christianity also give us exemplars or models to live by, which will improve outcomes for us and our societies in THIS life. i have no belief n an after life but i know how much i benefit by living a biblical based life in the modern age. i know how much safer more comfortable, and happier, i am living in a community which still lives by old fashioned values found in the bible, of love honesty, trust, community, faith, hope and charity. I know all my neighbours, share food and tasks with them, leave our doors open day and night and dont have to lock my car up . For me that is the reward for living in a "christian" community. i am sure i would be happy living with kind Buddhists jews or Muslims pagans or gaeans also . What scares me is a community made up of people without a consistent set of behavioural expectations. Where, for example, an individual puts himself before anyone else.

[simplybill]

A quick answer-

"I don't know" is an acceptable answer to me. I think part of the problem is that believers are erroneously taught that Christianity is a hunter/gatherer society rather than an agrarian society. "Soul winners" are held in high esteem, and "waterers" are rarely mentioned.

I've just realized that my reply had nothing to do with the topic.

[SHaYap]

~

~

Good to know this 'god' comes in little small bottles too ...

~

[Grandpa Greenman]

Ouch, god as an injection, don't it come in a pill?

I think people go to "sacred" books, because they are look for easy answers too complex problems. But it is like going to the doctor for a broken heart, he really isn't going to be able fix that, he might give you something to mask it, but the core problem is still there emotionally.

What I don't understand is why they will latch onto one and not read any of the others. Wisdom don't come handed out on a silver platter. Just because a book is old doesn't give it credence. Most of the time, if is suppose to be factual it means it is out of date, such as the History of the Kings of Britain, by Geoffrey of Monmouth isn't what one would call a reliable history book. When people hold up book like the Bible or Koran and tell me they are the end all for my questions. Sorry, but that just makes more questions for me. One of which is, that is all you have read, I take it?

[SHaYap]

Okay okay ... GmG ... something to tickle you grouses ...

~

Zen Story #5: Buddhism & Christianity

A university student while visiting Gasan asked him: “Have you ever read the Christian Bible?”

“No, read it to me,” said Gasan.

The student opened the Bible and read from St. Matthew: “And why take ye thought for rainment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They toil not, neither do they spin, and yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these… Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself.”

Gasan said: “Whoever uttered those words I consider an enlightened man.”

The student continued reading: “Ask and it shall be given you, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. For everyone that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.”

Gasan remarked: “That is excellent. Whoever said that is not far from Buddhahood.”

• 7 Zen Stories @ high existence com link
  

~

PRAYER FLAG

Some monks were sitting quietly in the garden of a Buddhist monastery on a calm, beautiful day. The prayer flag on the roof started fluttering and flapping in a breeze. A young monk observed: “Flag is flapping.” Another monk said: “Wind is flapping the flag.” The Chan master Huineng (whom Southern School Chan regards as 6th Patriarch), overhearing the two monks talking, declared: “It is your minds that are flapping.” Centuries later another famous Chan monk, Wumen Huikai (1183-1260), commented on this episode: “Flag, wind, minds flapping. Several mouths were flapping!”

• zen humore @ enlightened spirituality link
  

~

enjoy

~

[Doug1029]

~

~

Good to know this 'god' comes in little small bottles too ...

~

Spirits come in other types of bottles, too. Doug

[SHaYap]

Spirits come in other types of bottles, too. Doug

Ahhh those spirits are familiar to one such as I ~

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Podo:

You are more personable than I am. I have difficulty conceptualizing some concepts, and devotion to an unproven thing is one of those things. You did not offend me, don't worry. Offending me is really difficult and usually requires intent. You're sailing clear

Cool. And I never want to have the intent.

I can understand the difficulty, because there are certain things I don't get very well, and mostly at first either.

Even though, I find myself in my own point of view of this subject, I can understand where you stand with it. I always have to feel, we all have a different way of looking at it.

Because in the case of religion, the subjective beliefs of religious types are used as justification for actions that affect those who do not share their subjective belief in their deity. If religion was a purely internal thing that was never externalized into the world around the believer, I'd have no problem with it. But, in practice, and for all of human history, religious belief has been very extroverted, causing those subjectivities to affect the world around them.

Wow! I totally agree with that. And yes, I have seen those with subjective beliefs of religious types do use it as justification for their actions that affect others. I guess, some are like that, and some are not. The good and the bad. I guess, we need to watch out for the bad.

And you must like a world full of .... me's!! :D

Just kiddng. But yeah, if it was all subjective, and everyone obeyed the laws and was "excellent" to each other ( to steal a line from Bill and Ted ) than I think it would be great!

simply:

I've just realized that my reply had nothing to do with the topic.

That happens to me too, from time to time.

~

~

Good to know this 'god' comes in little small bottles too ...

~

The bottles look pretty!

[Stubbly_Dooright]

GmG:

Ouch, god as an injection, don't it come in a pill?

I think people go to "sacred" books, because they are look for easy answers too complex problems. But it is like going to the doctor for a broken heart, he really isn't going to be able fix that, he might give you something to mask it, but the core problem is still there emotionally.

What I don't understand is why they will latch onto one and not read any of the others. Wisdom don't come handed out on a silver platter. Just because a book is old doesn't give it credence. Most of the time, if is suppose to be factual it means it is out of date, such as the History of the Kings of Britain, by Geoffrey of Monmouth isn't what one would call a reliable history book. When people hold up book like the Bible or Koran and tell me they are the end all for my questions. Sorry, but that just makes more questions for me. One of which is, that is all you have read, I take it?

I am in total agreement on this. Probably why my belief forbides dependency on material things for support. How is it, one book, is the end all? I would think that the Tarot is not always the answer, and that comes with many answers!

One should always look for more answers, in unlimited sources.

Doug:

Spirits come in other types of bottles, too. Doug

In in prettier bottles too!

[Mr Walker]

Ouch, god as an injection, don't it come in a pill?

I think people go to "sacred" books, because they are look for easy answers too complex problems. But it is like going to the doctor for a broken heart, he really isn't going to be able fix that, he might give you something to mask it, but the core problem is still there emotionally.

What I don't understand is why they will latch onto one and not read any of the others. Wisdom don't come handed out on a silver platter. Just because a book is old doesn't give it credence. Most of the time, if is suppose to be factual it means it is out of date, such as the History of the Kings of Britain, by Geoffrey of Monmouth isn't what one would call a reliable history book. When people hold up book like the Bible or Koran and tell me they are the end all for my questions. Sorry, but that just makes more questions for me. One of which is, that is all you have read, I take it?

For me, once god manifested in my life, I chose the bible as a cultural reference /expression, because my whole culture, and especially my personal social context, was either atheist or christian There were no muslims jews buddhists etc. within hundreds of miles. Hence no chance of fellowship worshipping together etc.

Also, Christianity is the religion of the western world and thus has greatest cultural relevance. Our laws are judaeo- christian based, and so are our moralities and ethical standards I could (and would) happily live as a different person in a different cultural context IF the religion was constructive and met my needs. But basically religion is ONLY a cultural framework. You don't need ANY religion to connect to god.

In some ways a too powerful a religious belief hinders and prevents a person finding their own connection to god, just as a strong atheism can do. The belief/doctrine/ theology becomes the driver and motivator, not god You figure you don't really need god, because your faith /belief provides for all your needs. . When i fill out those on line surveys i come out as jainist/ jewish/ buddhist/ AND, in part, biblical based christian I would add gaean which doesn't really appear on those surveys.

[Tatetopa]

Thanks for the link Podo. Another fine thread you've gotten us into, and a fairly complex one. In another thread, I mentioned that the most recent human evolution book I read postulated that a penchant for religion grows partly out of our species need to find connections and explain the unexplained; or currently hidden as a survival mechanism. Our brain structure might be well suited to looking for causes. One could also argue this as the spark of scientific inquiry.

Here is a second reason that might apply to some; it is more than a fear of death, one might say a fear of un-belonging, or maybe better yet, fear of non-uniqueness. When you were a kid, did you ever hope your real parents would show up in a limousine and take you back to your real home and your wealthy lifestyle? Some people grow into their teen years in this age hoping their real parents are space aliens that will finally come and claim them. Or maybe that their mental energy is so pure that aliens will travel light years to come and take them away to the cosmos and all its wonders. In adult years some extend that into alien ancestors for the human race, books of secret knowledge, mysteries that only a few share. That may seem an extreme case,and I don't want to offend by bringing the analogy too closely to major religions, but there might be a kernel of parallelism. Being common is hard for some folk.

Here is another thought. Faith may be a mental exercise like meditation. If you had a method to connect with something that would allow you to accomplish extraordinary things, it would be useful. Belief may be an access switch. When it works,we try to explain what it is; and maybe, to steal someones else's analogy, it is like trying to explain a black hole to stone age people. Is it possible that religion is just that? I don't know. I have too have had extraordinary experiences, but I have never been able to eliminate the possibility that they originated in a non-conscious portion of my mind. Be excellent to each other and party on dudes.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Thanks for the link Podo. Another fine thread you've gotten us into, and a fairly complex one. In another thread, I mentioned that the most recent human evolution book I read postulated that a penchant for religion grows partly out of our species need to find connections and explain the unexplained; or currently hidden as a survival mechanism. Our brain structure might be well suited to looking for causes. One could also argue this as the spark of scientific inquiry.

Here is a second reason that might apply to some; it is more than a fear of death, one might say a fear of un-belonging, or maybe better yet, fear of non-uniqueness. When you were a kid, did you ever hope your real parents would show up in a limousine and take you back to your real home and your wealthy lifestyle? Some people grow into their teen years in this age hoping their real parents are space aliens that will finally come and claim them. Or maybe that their mental energy is so pure that aliens will travel light years to come and take them away to the cosmos and all its wonders. In adult years some extend that into alien ancestors for the human race, books of secret knowledge, mysteries that only a few share. That may seem an extreme case,and I don't want to offend by bringing the analogy too closely to major religions, but there might be a kernel of parallelism. Being common is hard for some folk.

Here is another thought. Faith may be a mental exercise like meditation. If you had a method to connect with something that would allow you to accomplish extraordinary things, it would be useful. Belief may be an access switch. When it works,we try to explain what it is; and maybe, to steal someones else's analogy, it is like trying to explain a black hole to stone age people. Is it possible that religion is just that? I don't know. I have too have had extraordinary experiences, but I have never been able to eliminate the possibility that they originated in a non-conscious portion of my mind. Be excellent to each other and party on dudes.

This post resonates with me. Awesome post, I feel.

And yes, there were many times, that I had hoped that aliens came back to claim me as their own.

And then, there was one time, and I swear it this happened, My mother even called me her little half-alien. ( don't worry, she said it lovingly ) So, one can understand how this planted this in me.

[+Sherapy]

Thanks for the link Podo. Another fine thread you've gotten us into, and a fairly complex one. In another thread, I mentioned that the most recent human evolution book I read postulated that a penchant for religion grows partly out of our species need to find connections and explain the unexplained; or currently hidden as a survival mechanism. Our brain structure might be well suited to looking for causes. One could also argue this as the spark of scientific inquiry.

Here is a second reason that might apply to some; it is more than a fear of death, one might say a fear of un-belonging, or maybe better yet, fear of non-uniqueness. When you were a kid, did you ever hope your real parents would show up in a limousine and take you back to your real home and your wealthy lifestyle? Some people grow into their teen years in this age hoping their real parents are space aliens that will finally come and claim them. Or maybe that their mental energy is so pure that aliens will travel light years to come and take them away to the cosmos and all its wonders. In adult years some extend that into alien ancestors for the human race, books of secret knowledge, mysteries that only a few share. That may seem an extreme case,and I don't want to offend by bringing the analogy too closely to major religions, but there might be a kernel of parallelism. Being common is hard for some folk.

Here is another thought. Faith may be a mental exercise like meditation. If you had a method to connect with something that would allow you to accomplish extraordinary things, it would be useful. Belief may be an access switch. When it works,we try to explain what it is; and maybe, to steal someones else's analogy, it is like trying to explain a black hole to stone age people. Is it possible that religion is just that? I don't know. I have too have had extraordinary experiences, but I have never been able to eliminate the possibility that they originated in a non-conscious portion of my mind. Be excellent to each other and party on dudes.

Have you read "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti" it is a fascinating study (1964) about 3 schizophrenics who thought they were Jesus. While the Psychoanalyst didn't come away with anything profound in the way of pulling them out of the delusion, nonetheless the book is brave and rich in exploring the nature of beliefs and trying to understand what things may contribute to "primitive beliefs" that are unassailable and unchanging in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Sherapy

[barbco196]

Have you read "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti" it is a fascinating study (1964) about 3 schizophrenics who thought they were Jesus. While the Psychoanalyst didn't come away with anything profound in the way of pulling them out of the delusion, nonetheless the book is brave and rich in exploring the nature of beliefs and trying to understand what things may contribute to "primitive beliefs" that are unassailable and unchanging in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Do you have a link? I dig this kind of stuff

[Podo]

Have you read "The Three Christs of Ypsilanti" it is a fascinating study (1964) about 3 schizophrenics who thought they were Jesus. While the Psychoanalyst didn't come away with anything profound in the way of pulling them out of the delusion, nonetheless the book is brave and rich in exploring the nature of beliefs and trying to understand what things may contribute to "primitive beliefs" that are unassailable and unchanging in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Isn't that the one where each one came up with bizarre justification as to why the other two were fraudulent?

[SHaYap]

The Zen version :

The apprentice monks preparing for a session of deep silent meditation were told by the teacher to keep utterly silent ... the first one said "I will be silent' the second one said 'you just made a sound' the third one said 'I am the most silent of all"

~

[+Sherapy]

Do you have a link? I dig this kind of stuff

You can purchase the book on Amazon. It is a much read and talked about book in the Psychological community. I have just taken a job as a live in companion to a Dr. of Psychology and she insisted I read her copy. It is fascinating and with her to discuss it with ( as she knew the Psychologist that wrote it ) it's rich in understanding the nature of beliefs. It is a book that has influenced a lot of the Psychology and Psychiartry community. I'd love to hear your thoughts if you read it.

@ Podo, yes, and it was controversial and brave for the time it was written. There are those ( Psychologists) who think the study was unethical. There are those that were profoundly inspired by it. Myself, I take the position it was brave ( that he made it into a book knowing he would get hell for it. It is suited to many of our threads in the S vrs. S section.

It would be awesome if we all read it and discussed it, quite frankly.

I tried to find it as a free read, no luck.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Sherapy