Putin will retaliate against NATO missiles

[stevewinn]

12 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Yes lets all blame the EU for what Russia does. Makes sense..................apparently. 

We cannot blame the EU for Russia's actions. just as we cant blame Russia for the EU's actions.

[seeder]

Sometimes I wonder why America seems to hate Russia so much..... yet is happy to use Russian rockets to get into space. Hypocrites. How long has the US been in Iraq/middle east for example? Years and years. Yet Russia goes to Syria and with a campaign of bombing totally disrupt ISIS and drive them back,  making bigger progress in a short time than the US had for all its years there. ONLY NOW....are local ground troops able to retake ISIS held areas...spurred on by the Russians gains.

[Thorvir]

13 hours ago, and then said:

Did you ever imagine you'd hear a Brit speak such drivel about us and FOR Russia?  The world has truly turned down a path to the surreal.  I mean, yes, we have our problems today but damn!  I wonder if all those out there - not just the UK but all our ostensible allies - have any clue what their futures would look like economically and socially if they had to pick up the REAL costs of keeping evil at bay in the world?  I expect to hear anger from our cousins over the pond and I don't care.  I'm an anglophile and always have been but it's time the world put up or shut up.  France, Italy, Germany, Britain and even our cousins Down Under to a point have ridden a gravy train off OUR defense spending and now they want to excoriate us for HOW MUCH we spend?  The glorious EU has been making rumblings about a combined, coherent force structure to help substantially with the load and I say the sooner the better!  Putin and his ambitions are in their backyard and it's time they sounded off like they had a pair.  Sheesh...I'll retire to Bedlam.

I don't hold it against stevewinn.  He is wrong here, but he's usually got it right on the money about almost everything else.  But yes, i do agree that the world has truly gone bonkers when it comes to Russia being the "victim" and many other things.  It just seems that some people willfully ignore what's going on, and completely lack the ability to remember history.

I don't hate Russia.  I admire the hell out of some of the stuff they've done and are doing.  However, I am not naive or stupid like other to think that Russia is the good guy here.  And while I am not a fan of teaching harsh lessons, if the US were to pull their complete support of the EU's defense superstructure, completely give up on shouldering the defense of Europe on our shoulders, it might be just comeuppance for people's ignorance.

But I don't want that.  What I do want is a strong Europe that doesn't bow to threats, that can fend for itself, and appreciates all of the hard work done by the US on their behave over these last 80 or so years, and would appreciate continued support from the US for however long it's needed.  What I want is a Russia that actually wants to coexist as equals with the rest of the world, that doesn't constantly give reasons for it's neighbors to fear them, and gives up on this silly notion of empire once and for all.

That would be a better world.

[Thorvir]

2 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Yes lets all blame the EU for what Russia does. Makes sense..................apparently. 

It's the usual "blame the victim" mentality from the left some.  I thought certain posters  were above that, apparently this is one of the few times I get to be wrong each year.

[Thorvir]

1 hour ago, seeder said:

Sometimes I wonder why America seems to hate Russia so much..... yet is happy to use Russian rockets to get into space. Hypocrites. How long has the US been in Iraq/middle east for example? Years and years. Yet Russia goes to Syria and with a campaign of bombing totally disrupt ISIS and drive them back,  making bigger progress in a short time than the US had for all its years there. ONLY NOW....are local ground troops able to retake ISIS held areas...spurred on by the Russians gains.

Seeder, I don't hate Russia, I just want them to play nice for once....instead of bullying their neighbors and making empty threats.

[bee]

3 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

So annexing Crimea ,starting a war in Eastern Ukraine and invading Georgia is "legitimate business around it's borders" ? Really ?

who did what ---  and why gets (deliberately) confused when put through the 'Russia Bad - America / Europe good'  mincer -

for example 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/7722806.stm

 

Quote

But now mounting evidence is casting doubt on Georgia's account of the origins and course of the war. It suggests that Georgia played a bigger role than it admits in provoking the conflict, and that it may have violated the rules of war in the first days of the fighting.

The latest evidence comes from the international community's chief observer in Georgia at the time, former British army officer Ryan Grist.

and

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict

 

 

Quote

The reality is that, after two decades of eastward Nato expansion, this crisis was triggered by the west's attempt to pull Ukraine decisively into its orbit and defence structure, via an explicitly anti-Moscow EU association agreement. Its rejection led to the Maidan protests and the installation of an anti-Russian administration – rejected by half the country – that went on to sign the EU and International Monetary Fund agreements regardless.

 

noteverything isaconspiracy said -

Quote

The US and Europe wouldn't have to "play provocative warmongering" in the first place if Russia just minded its own business. Do you remember what happened the last time we let a bullying country get away with it for too long ?

 

yes 27 million Russians died

 

noteverythingisaconspiracy said -

Quote

Quote

Relations with Russia was quite good before Putin started his agressive power play. Russia is in a situation that is entirely of its own making. 

Its all nice for people that live in countries far away from the potential trouble spots, but some of us live in countries that would almost certainly be heavily involved if Russia tries something stupid.

 

It's American and European political power play and aggression is what you should be more concerned about - IMO

Unless you want us to teeter on the brink of something similar to WW2 when Russia was invaded and all those lives were lost - ??

 

.

 

edit to say --- sorry this post is all messed up re. the quotes - I haven't got the hang of the new formats and whatnot  yet

 

.

Edited May 30, 2016 by bee

[stevewinn]

27 minutes ago, Thorvir Hrothgaard said:

I don't hold it against stevewinn.  He is wrong here, but he's usually got it right on the money about almost everything else.  But yes, i do agree that the world has truly gone bonkers when it comes to Russia being the "victim" and many other things.  It just seems that some people willfully ignore what's going on, and completely lack the ability to remember history.

I don't hate Russia.  I admire the hell out of some of the stuff they've done and are doing.  However, I am not naive or stupid like other to think that Russia is the good guy here.  And while I am not a fan of teaching harsh lessons, if the US were to pull their complete support of the EU's defense superstructure, completely give up on shouldering the defense of Europe on our shoulders, it might be just comeuppance for people's ignorance.

But I don't want that.  What I do want is a strong Europe that doesn't bow to threats, that can fend for itself, and appreciates all of the hard work done by the US on their behave over these last 80 or so years, and would appreciate continued support from the US for however long it's needed.  What I want is a Russia that actually wants to coexist as equals with the rest of the world, that doesn't constantly give reasons for it's neighbors to fear them, and gives up on this silly notion of empire once and for all.

That would be a better world.

How have i got it wrong? the sphere's of two opposites are buffering up against one another, But no-one seems to understand when that happens consequences happen. Russia is far from being blameless or the victim, But we have to face the reality that both sides are as bad as one another. It just happens we sit on this side of the western line and our actions by default are the right ones. The West has broken promises made to Russian during the collapse and we took advantage of the situation at that time, while Russia was on its knees we took the p***, knowing they were in no fit state to respond. - that situation was never going to last forever, it just seems our diplomats got complacent, or lacked the experience of pre and post cold war solutions.

The Russian Federation is stronger today than it was when the Soviet Union collapsed. at some point Russia was going stand up once more, well that point was reached in 2008, and we in the West should have seen it coming, (with Ukraine) but no, Russia had been on its knees so long we thought it would never stand again. well, we got that wrong. People say Putin, or Vlad the mad as i've called him, But the truth is no matter who was in charge of Russia - they would NEVER in a million years allow Crimea to fall into Western hands, its to close to their hearts Historically. When a country falls from grace, when it hits the bottom you always get that rebound. Russia is on the rebound, how high it bounces and to what level is anyones guess.

The USA and European security. apparently it was all down to the EU, no mention of the hundreds of thousands of UK and USA troops who served in Germany. hence the EU got the Nobel peace prize. just look at the European nations who are part of NATO, how many spend the 2% of GDP, Three of them, UK, Estonia and Greece, the others no commitment, that 2% figure was placed there for the US to gauge how serious NATO members take Defence. - Well we've seen whos who in Afghanistan when article 5 was triggered for the first time in response to the 9/11 attacks. the only countries who served with distinction were the Nations of USA, Canada, Denmark, The Netherlands, Estonia. and United Kingdom. the rest where politically by their leaders, hamstrung. - and i want to make the point im not talking about the individual people who served for all countries in Afghanistan im talking about the political inhibition of our so called Allies. and that was a test for NATO, and for all our collective might, we left Afghanistan with the Taliban unbeaten. NATO couldnt beat aload of goat herders, Farmers, rural nomads running around in a disdash.

As America pivots to the Asia-Pacific, in a "defensive" move against the Chinese seen as an offensive move by the Chinese: Is it any coincidence that America pulled out the last of its heavy armour in 2012, and Putin made a move. - truth is Americas power under Obama as continued to wane. When Libya kicked off for the first time in living memory the USA never had a Carrier group in the region, America cannot do it all on its own. hence creation - EU army to the fore. as covered under Article 42 Lisbon Treaty.

[+and-then]

8 hours ago, stevewinn said:

We have our Nuclear deterrent to deter Russia, So why do we need the shield? only So we can lob missiles at them and prevent them lobbing them back at us. I ask again. which country would do nothing in response to that? - were making mistakes once more. all this shield will lead to is an arms race. Russia will make faster missiles, deploy more subs, or worse they might try and deploy missiles in South America. But If Russia was to do the latter, would we expect the US to do nothing? Yes, because where asking Russia to do nothing as we ever increasing expanding into the East. gobbling up ex-soviet Union states, sharing borders with Russia. - where is our buffer zone between East (Russia)  and West? (NATO) guess what happens if you have no buffer zone. 

Steve how are we "gobbling up" ex Soviet states?  Yes we are cozying up to those nations that used to be under the boot.  Surely you aren't saying that those states should never have an option to become aligned elsewhere? Your mention of faster missiles may be the key.  Knocking down a hypersonic missile at this point could only be done, I guess, at boost phase.  Overall I agree that it's a tricky call.  Many here at UM deny that Iran and it's nuclear program are any threat to the West but if they are incorrect - and I certainly believe they are - then short term if we had such missiles in place in a limited number we could still have a chance to see and stop a nuke from there.  I can understand why Putin would see it as a threat and let's face it Russians have historically been known to be paranoid but think about it a moment.  Think about the real NUMBERS of missiles we're talking about.  They simply are not a threat.  We might intercept a handful of ICBMs as they left the barn but we're talking about HUNDREDS...all at once, right?  No, this is Putin on a rampage against a coward in the White House.  At SOME point Putin is going to have to pull back from the table and enjoy his winnings.  Good God man, he single handed retook the M.E. for Russian expansion!  What else can you call it?  The US had kept his nation out of that area for many decades.  I'm not saying he did anything "wrong".  He only did what strong leaders DO when they have the opportunity.  I've been saying for a few moths that this president has been so feckless and out right cowardly that as his term nears an end the peace of the world is going to be in real jeopardy.  Maybe,hopefully, Putin and Xi will simply smile and scoop up their gains or maybe they will make some last big bet before the loser limps from the table.  And finally, "buffer" zones are a quaint idea these days when hypersonic missiles are being actually added into active weapons stockpiles.  I think we're going to done in by our technology completely outpacing our morality.

 

[stevewinn]

7 minutes ago, and then said:

Steve how are we "gobbling up" ex Soviet states?  Yes we are cozying up to those nations that used to be under the boot.  Surely you aren't saying that those states should never have an option to become aligned elsewhere? Your mention of faster missiles may be the key.  Knocking down a hypersonic missile at this point could only be done, I guess, at boost phase.  Overall I agree that it's a tricky call.  Many here at UM deny that Iran and it's nuclear program are any threat to the West but if they are incorrect - and I certainly believe they are - then short term if we had such missiles in place in a limited number we could still have a chance to see and stop a nuke from there.  I can understand why Putin would see it as a threat and let's face it Russians have historically been known to be paranoid but think about it a moment.  Think about the real NUMBERS of missiles we're talking about.  They simply are not a threat.  We might intercept a handful of ICBMs as they left the barn but we're talking about HUNDREDS...all at once, right?  No, this is Putin on a rampage against a coward in the White House.  At SOME point Putin is going to have to pull back from the table and enjoy his winnings.  Good God man, he single handed retook the M.E. for Russian expansion!  What else can you call it?  The US had kept his nation out of that area for many decades.  I'm not saying he did anything "wrong".  He only did what strong leaders DO when they have the opportunity.  I've been saying for a few moths that this president has been so feckless and out right cowardly that as his term nears an end the peace of the world is going to be in real jeopardy.  Maybe,hopefully, Putin and Xi will simply smile and scoop up their gains or maybe they will make some last big bet before the loser limps from the table.  And finally, "buffer" zones are a quaint idea these days when hypersonic missiles are being actually added into active weapons stockpiles.  I think we're going to done in by our technology completely outpacing our morality.

 

As the EU gobbles up the ex-soviet states we inherit all their problems, politically historically and Geopolitically. - a minefield, im not saying they shouldn't as sovereign countries in their own right never be allowed to aligned with others, but what i am saying is be careful what your offering, EU membership NATO membership, and not backing ourselves into a corner. Take Ukraine if they where granted EU membership or NATO membership, 8million ethnic Russians live there. - If the case can be made they are being unfairly targeted. Russia under international rules could enter that country to protect that population. - How would you treat that? an invasion of a EU member? an invasion of a NATO member, triggering article 5? because at the end of the day Russia in such a scenario has broken no UN rules. and that is the minefield you enter. you either look weak or go to war. or do nothing. - evidence is the Budapest Memorandum. under that Memorandum did we do what we said we'd do?

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, seeder said:

Sometimes I wonder why America seems to hate Russia so much..... yet is happy to use Russian rockets to get into space. Hypocrites. How long has the US been in Iraq/middle east for example? Years and years. Yet Russia goes to Syria and with a campaign of bombing totally disrupt ISIS and drive them back,  making bigger progress in a short time than the US had for all its years there. ONLY NOW....are local ground troops able to retake ISIS held areas...spurred on by the Russians gains.

I'm not sure how old you are seeder but if you read a little history of the old USSR (which modern Russia is NOT, I know) you will quickly see the kind of unmasked brutality a Russian led entity is capable of.  Now America isn't a weak sister by any means when we employ military power but we rarely have been guilty of the outright brutality that Russians have shown to be a trait in their dealings with nations.  And most Americans over the age of 30 or so really don't like at all that our space efforts depend on rockets from anywhere else -thank Mr Obama for that as well.  If you see Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin as a savior on a white horse for rolling into Assad's sandbox then I don't think you really understand Putin's gambit.  ISIS is no real threat to Russia.  Putin doesn't want to lose his single warm water Mediterranean base.  Fair enough.  You speak of our missile defense weapons in Poland, Romania and Czech?  What of S400 missiles so close to our ally Israel that they could shut down all commercial traffic into Ben Gurion?  There is no doubt that the world is a very much more dangerous place now than 7 years ago.  Putin is surely not to blame for that, IMO.  The history of conflict between nations shows what weakness can lead to.  There is absolutely no way to deny that fact.  Today we have an empty suit in the Oval office and a Russian leader of the Cold War style in the Kremlin.  Add China into the mix and it can keep the faint of heart up at night.  The MOST dangerous aspect of this is that Putin loves a good fight.  LOVES IT.  I think Obama would have soiled himself at the mere prospect of such a thing in his youth.  As he plays his last rounds with celebrities and begins to put the finishing touches on his  CHANGE to America, he isn't going to want to engage anywhere.  Putin and Xi know this so the Baltic nations, Taiwan and those south China sea nations should make sure their rifles are clean.  These next 8 months have the potential to be a really rough ride.  Let's just hope it all remains "potential".

[seeder]

Oh Im only 50, middle aged you could say

[+and-then]

4 minutes ago, seeder said:

Oh Im only 50, middle aged you could say

Wow... your family lives to be 100?    Just kidding.  C'mon man, you know what I'm saying here.  Putin's not Satan but that doesn't mean he can't miscalculate and between Obama and himself burn a good part of our world down.  The greatest irony of all of this is that had Obama just kept the missile deployment on track 7 years ago and refused to budge, Putin may have been upset but he would have had to consider a strong US president into his plans.  Today he's had 7 years to take Obama's measure and frankly he isn't very impressed - look at ANY picture of the two of them together.  Really.  Nope, as usual, Obama (and don't forget Hildebeast) glad hands Putin and generally acts the fool by giving up the idea of missile defense, and here's the thing, gets NOTHING in return.  It proved from day one to Putin that Obama would be his mal'chik for the next few years.

[danielost]

22 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

We did warn of retaliation once under something of the same conditions , Cuba once placed russian missiles near our borders and we lost our damn minds. 

I agree this is an offensive move rather than defensive and im honestly scared of the US pushing Russia too far. 

the difference is the Cuban missiles were nukes, these are defensive only.  putin wants to be able to attack Europe with out interference if he so wants.  like he did in Ukraine and georga.

[Farmer77]

Just now, danielost said:

the difference is the Cuban missiles were nukes, these are defensive only.  putin wants to be able to attack Europe with out interference if he so wants.  like he did in Ukraine and georga.

Someone else made the point earlier but in this instance the only difference between an offensive and defensive weapon is the verbiage used to describe them. 

Would you trust russia to place a missile shield on our borders? I would assume not, in fact im pretty sure most red blooded american males would be calling for us to go to war over something like that. Hell even my pot smoking hippy ass would be. Its just poor decision making for a nation to expect another nation, particularly one with the rich and proud history russia has, to be its b****. The missile shield makes russia exactly that , the b**** of whomever is controlling it. 

[Farmer77]

4 hours ago, seeder said:

Sometimes I wonder why America seems to hate Russia so much..... yet is happy to use Russian rockets to get into space. Hypocrites. How long has the US been in Iraq/middle east for example? Years and years. Yet Russia goes to Syria and with a campaign of bombing totally disrupt ISIS and drive them back,  making bigger progress in a short time than the US had for all its years there. ONLY NOW....are local ground troops able to retake ISIS held areas...spurred on by the Russians gains.

Generations' worth of programming is why americans appear to hate russia. It makes you wonder how history would have been different if JFK had been able to share the space race with the USSR like he wanted to. 

[Thorvir]

2 hours ago, danielost said:

the difference is the Cuban missiles were nukes, these are defensive only.  putin wants to be able to attack Europe with out interference if he so wants.  like he did in Ukraine and georga.

A difference gleefully ignored by some.

[danielost]

17 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Someone else made the point earlier but in this instance the only difference between an offensive and defensive weapon is the verbiage used to describe them. 

Would you trust russia to place a missile shield on our borders? I would assume not, in fact im pretty sure most red blooded american males would be calling for us to go to war over something like that. Hell even my pot smoking hippy ass would be. Its just poor decision making for a nation to expect another nation, particularly one with the rich and proud history russia has, to be its b****. The missile shield makes russia exactly that , the b**** of whomever is controlling it. 

a weapon with no war head is quite different than a nuke.  besides if Russia has the ability they already have a missile shield.

[Farmer77]

27 minutes ago, danielost said:

a weapon with no war head is quite different than a nuke.  besides if Russia has the ability they already have a missile shield.

So you avoid the point. Comeon man a little intellectual honesty please. We're placing missiles in strategic locations which will keep Russia from being able to defend itself. Would you stand for it if another nation did it to us? Its really a simple question. 

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

36 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

So you avoid the point. Comeon man a little intellectual honesty please. We're placing missiles in strategic locations which will keep Russia from being able to defend itself. Would you stand for it if another nation did it to us? Its really a simple question. 

The issue is that Russia have repeatedly shown that their intentions aren't defensive at all. No matter how you spin it Russia have annexed territory from sovereign nations and started civil wars too. This isn't just an opinion, this is something that is happening right now.

Doesn't Russia's neighbors have the right to defend themselves from Russias "defensive measures", or is it just Russia that is allowed to take defensive measures ?

As others have pointed out the missile systems that NATO are deploying in Eastern Europe isn't actually capable of intercepting Russia's ICBM's anyway, so they are still just as capable of defending itself as they ever were.

This is simply just the Russian government using this to show to their own population how evil the west is and how they intend to take over Russia, unless they have the mighty Putin to defend them. 

[Farmer77]

Just now, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

The issue is that Russia have repeatedly shown that their intentions aren't defensive at all. No matter how you spin it Russia have annexed territory from sovereign nations and started civil wars too. This isn't just an opinion, this is something that is happening right now.

Doesn't Russia's neighbors have the right to defend themselves from Russias "defensive measures", or is it just Russia that is allowed to take defensive measures ?

As others have pointed out the missile systems that NATO are deploying in Eastern Europe isn't actually capable of intercepting Russia's ICBM's anyway, so they are still just as capable of defending itself as they ever were.

This is simply just the Russian government using this to show to their own population how evil the west is and how they intend to take over Russia, unless they have the mighty Putin to defend them. 

Considering the path the US is on can you blame them for being concerned? 

As for Russia's neighbors having the right to defend themselves, absolutely they do. So let them defend themselves. This decision is putting Americans in harms way by escalating tensions for reasons which do not benefit the american populace. Again its just dangerous policy to expect another nation to become our b****es.  

 

[Poppi]

My insignificant opinion - Russia and China are making noise, because they know US laser and rail systems will be coming online soon...USNI News: Sam LaGrone- Navy Wants Rail Guns to Fight Ballistic and Supersonic Missiles...

https://news.usni.org/2015/01/05/navy-wants-rail-guns-fight-ballistic-supersonic-missiles-says-rfi

 

[seeder]

Quote

 

Russia to Respond to NATO Attempts to Bring Conflicts to Black Sea

NATO is trying to move confrontational schemes to the Black Sea and Russia will take measures to neutralize potential threats, Russian Permanent Representative to NATO Alexander Grushko said Monday.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — He added that the tendency for the deterioration of the relations between Russia and NATO still continued since the alliance kept the strategy of "containing" Russia despite its own calls for political dialogue.

"Today, NATO is trying to move confrontational schemes to the Black Sea. Recently, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said that the transformation of the Black Sea into the 'Russian lake' was not acceptable," Grushko told the Rossiiskaya Gazeta in an interview.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20160530/1040505309/russia-nato-black-sea-conflict.html#ixzz4AIwPaFb1

 

 

[stevewinn]

3 hours ago, seeder said:

 

im not sure their attempting to start a war,  NATO is just trying to look strong.

Edited June 1, 2016 by stevewinn

[bmk1245]

On 5/31/2016 at 3:23 PM, Farmer77 said:

Considering the path the US is on can you blame them for being concerned? 

As for Russia's neighbors having the right to defend themselves, absolutely they do. So let them defend themselves. This decision is putting Americans in harms way by escalating tensions for reasons which do not benefit the american populace. Again its just dangerous policy to expect another nation to become our b****es.  

 

Hmmm... Austria, Czechoslovakia in 1938, Poland in 1939... Do I  have to remind you what happened next?

[Beefers]

I can't blame him. We didn't like missiles in Cuba, he can be p***ed about missiles near Russia.