Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Weitter Duckss

What Are The Lakes On Titan Made Of?

79 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

bmk1245

Blah, blah, blah. Senseless blabber again. Quote relevant parts of the text from papers, instead of trying formulate it on your own and using google translator.

There is ample evidence for lakes/seas being made of hydrocarbons. Heres another:

Quote

Radiative transfer analyses demonstrate that the resulting spectrum is consistent with a black surface, indicative of liquid methane on the surface.

(C. Griffith et al, Nature 486 (2012) 237; bolding mine)

Now its YOUR turn to present evidence for liquid nitrogen as you claimed.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
3 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

Blah, blah, blah. Senseless blabber again. Quote relevant parts of the text from papers, instead of trying formulate it on your own and using google translator.

There is ample evidence for lakes/seas being made of hydrocarbons. Heres another:

(C. Griffith et al, Nature 486 (2012) 237; bolding mine)

Now its YOUR turn to present evidence for liquid nitrogen as you claimed.

First, your example. Suppose that are lakes of methane. It is the temperature of -182 ° C. The average temperature is -? 79 ° C. Measurements are shown that there are differences + - 3 ° C. What is the use of liquid methane migration to the equator? There are (as measured) temperature for a gas methane. If you use the evidence against, use them literally.
The chemical composition of the atmosphere is irrefutable evidence that there are two processes on Titan. The process of nitrogen (95 -98%) and the process of methane (1.4 -4.9%).
Second proof is that the adjacent and all other satellites and planets have a significant difference between the highest and lowest temperatures, Titan can not be an exception.
Link just clearly shows that we have a "Titan has clouds, rain and lakes but composed of methane."
It are: proceses evaporating and of condensation of methane. But measurements exclude the temperature required for evaporation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245

On 6/6/2016 at 10:53 PM, Weitter Duckss said:

First, your example. Suppose that are lakes of methane. It is the temperature of -182 ° C. The average temperature is -? 79 ° C. Measurements are shown that there are differences + - 3 ° C. What is the use of liquid methane migration to the equator? There are (as measured) temperature for a gas methane. If you use the evidence against, use them literally.
The chemical composition of the atmosphere is irrefutable evidence that there are two processes on Titan. The process of nitrogen (95 -98%) and the process of methane (1.4 -4.9%).

[...]

Link just clearly shows that we have a "Titan has clouds, rain and lakes but composed of methane."
It are: proceses evaporating and of condensation of methane. But measurements exclude the temperature required for evaporation.

Sigh. Your cluelessness beats that of a doorknob...

On 6/6/2016 at 10:53 PM, Weitter Duckss said:

[...]

Second proof is that the adjacent and all other satellites and planets have a significant difference between the highest and lowest temperatures, Titan can not be an exception.

[...]

Silly argument. How many satellites do you know that have thick and dense atmosphere (~1.5 bar)?

Another clue - Venus. Surface temperatures from pole to pole vary by ~5 degrees.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
6 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

 

Sigh. Your cluelessness beats that of a doorknob...

 

Silly argument. How many satellites do you know that have thick and dense atmosphere (~1.5 bar)?

Another clue - Venus. Surface temperatures from pole to pole vary by ~5 degrees.

The answer lies in your attached evidence. Evaporating temperature, methane must be above -160 ° C. These temperature measurements not on Titan.
Earth has sufficient comparative pressure unlike Venus. Temperature differences of the Earth amounts -86 to + 56 ° C. That same (similar) temperature difference have other planets and satellites with the atmosphere or without atmosphere.


Regardless of the further course of the discussion I must tell you that you are me the two or three occasions, threw to his knees. I thought about surrender. I appreciate the quality of the debate (the current) and precious reflections.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245
44 minutes ago, Weitter Duckss said:

The answer lies in your attached evidence. Evaporating temperature, methane must be above -160 ° C. These temperature measurements not on Titan.
[...]

Utter nonsense. Where did you got that temperature (-160 °C = 113 °K), huh?

44 minutes ago, Weitter Duckss said:

[...]
Earth has sufficient comparative pressure unlike Venus. Temperature differences of the Earth amounts -86 to + 56 ° C. That same (similar) temperature difference have other planets and satellites with the atmosphere or without atmosphere.

[...]

What a hell you are trying to say? Again, temperatures on Venus (latitudinal) do not vary more than 5K (or so, ballpark figure). More to that, like Venus, Titan has fair amount of greenhouse gas (i.e. CH4) in atmosphere, and thats why temperatures across different latitudes remain uniform (within few °K).

44 minutes ago, Weitter Duckss said:

[...]
Regardless of the further course of the discussion I must tell you that you are me the two or three occasions, threw to his knees. I thought about surrender. I appreciate the quality of the debate (the current) and precious reflections.

If you would have put more efforts in research (not just wiki) on the subject, there would be no need in current pointless thread.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
4 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

Utter nonsense. Where did you got that temperature (-160 °C = 113 °K), huh?

What a hell you are trying to say? Again, temperatures on Venus (latitudinal) do not vary more than 5K (or so, ballpark figure). More to that, like Venus, Titan has fair amount of greenhouse gas (i.e. CH4) in atmosphere, and thats why temperatures across different latitudes remain uniform (within few °K).

If you would have put more efforts in research (not just wiki) on the subject, there would be no need in current pointless thread.

 

Melting point Methane
−182.5 °C; −296.4 °F; 90.7 K
Boiling point
−161.49 °C; −258.68 °F; 111.66 K
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

Surface pressure Titan
146.7 kPa (1.41 atm)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(moon)

Surface pressure Earth
101.325 kPa (at MSL)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth

Surface pressure Venus
92 bar (9.2 MPa)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus
 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245
12 minutes ago, Weitter Duckss said:

 

Melting point Methane
−182.5 °C; −296.4 °F; 90.7 K
Boiling point
−161.49 °C; −258.68 °F; 111.66 K
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

Surface pressure Titan
146.7 kPa (1.41 atm)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(moon)

Surface pressure Earth
101.325 kPa (at MSL)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth

Surface pressure Venus
92 bar (9.2 MPa)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus

Heh, so where are your -160C on Titan?  BTW, try to convert atm(kPa) to bar and youl'll be closer to solution

Edited by bmk1245
slight reason, not... right...
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
9 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

Heh, so where are your -160C on Titan?  BTW, try to convert atm(kPa) to bar and youl'll be closer to solution

Surface pressure Titan 146.7 kPa;
Surface pressure Earth 101.325 kPa .
Temperatures above -160 ° C gives a dynamic process of evaporation of methane that can be seen from the significant opposite process of condensation of methane.
"Venus has several times as many volcanoes as Earth .." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Surface_geology
This means several times " The Catalogue of the Active Volcanoes of the World, published by the International Association of Volcanology, uses this definition, by which there are more than 500 active volcanoes." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcano#Active  or so micro-region with a temperature above the "felsic (rhyolitic) Temp: <900 ° C to ultramafic (picritic) Temperature: up to 1500 ° C" https: // en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magma#Composition.2C_melt_structure_and_properties.
Average temperature, and claims + - 3 to 5 ° C (minimum, maximum) are not very credible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Waspie_Dwarf

Weitter,

It is simple logic that if a hypothesis does not fit the observed facts then the hypothesis MUST be wrong.

Since observation has shown that the lakes of Titan are made of hydrocarbons any hypothesis claiming otherwise MUST be wrong. It therefore follows that you MUST be wrong.

To continue to argue against the observed facts is an illogical, unscientific and unintelligent approach. It is, however, an approach consistent with all the other nonsense you post.

You are NOT the scientific genius you think you are, you have zero understanding of how science actually works.

Edited by Waspie_Dwarf
typo.
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245
2 hours ago, Weitter Duckss said:

Surface pressure Titan 146.7 kPa;
Surface pressure Earth 101.325 kPa .
Temperatures above -160 ° C gives a dynamic process of evaporation of methane that can be seen from the significant opposite process of condensation of methane.
"Venus has several times as many volcanoes as Earth .." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Surface_geology
This means several times " The Catalogue of the Active Volcanoes of the World, published by the International Association of Volcanology, uses this definition, by which there are more than 500 active volcanoes." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcano#Active  or so micro-region with a temperature above the "felsic (rhyolitic) Temp: <900 ° C to ultramafic (picritic) Temperature: up to 1500 ° C" https: // en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magma#Composition.2C_melt_structure_and_properties.
Average temperature, and claims + - 3 to 5 ° C (minimum, maximum) are not very credible.

rf_fp.gif

You dug yourself into the hole you can't crawl out.

First of all, your claim "Temperatures above -160 ° C gives a dynamic process of evaporation of methane that can be seen from the significant opposite process of condensation of methane." is utter rubbish, meaningless word salad. Methane evaporates and sublimes from freezing point and down below. Just like water cycle on the Earth, pretty much the same happens with methane on Titan.

Secondly, temperatures were deduced from observations, not from guessing. Period

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
10 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

 

You dug yourself into the hole you can't crawl out.

First of all, your claim "Temperatures above -160 ° C gives a dynamic process of evaporation of methane that can be seen from the significant opposite process of condensation of methane." is utter rubbish, meaningless word salad. Methane evaporates and sublimes from freezing point and down below. Just like water cycle on the Earth, pretty much the same happens with methane on Titan.

Secondly, temperatures were deduced from observations, not from guessing. Period

 

Sublimation methane happens when temperature reaches -161.49 ° C and more. It must be clear. If they are, processes, evaporating faster or more significant temperatures are higher and the opposite.
The truth is that that part of the evaporating takes place between -182.5 and -161.49 ° C to a small amount, but not at 2-3 ° C below the average (-179.5 ° C).
The balance of the process means equivalent or similar amount of condensation and evaporating, otherwise over a longer period shall be amended, the proportion of methane in the atmosphere.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
13 hours ago, Waspie_Dwarf said:

Weitter,

It is simple logic that if a hypothesis does not fit the observed facts then the hypothesis MUST be wrong.

Since observation has shown that the lakes of Titan are made of hydrocarbons any hypothesis claiming otherwise MUST be wrong. It therefore follows that you MUST be wrong.

To continue to argue against the observed facts is an illogical, unscientific and unintelligent approach. It is, however, an approach consistent with all the other nonsense you post.

You are NOT the scientific genius you think you are, you have zero understanding of how science actually works.

I agree with your first and last sentence. However past experience (statistics) is unrelenting. Little is likely to hit ever, if they do not see a problem universally.
I do not remember that I ever claim that I am a scientist, or a genius, God forbid, would be compelled to follow the nonsense which were piled up in astro physics and cosmology. I just agree mosaic of elements (of evidence) in the Whole. If a part does not fit into in the Whole I say this publicly and open discussion. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I do not succeed to be sufficiently clear.
Is not science nor career, nor business already the hobby.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245
1 hour ago, Weitter Duckss said:

Sublimation methane happens when temperature reaches -161.49 ° C and more. It must be clear. If they are, processes, evaporating faster or more significant temperatures are higher and the opposite.
[...]

Where did you learned that? Utter nonsense. What is triple point for methane (at 1 atm.)? What is triple point for water (again, at 1 atm. pressure)? What is boiling point for methane (and that for water; at 1 atm.)? Following your "knowledge", how you can explain water vapor presence in Earth's atmosphere?

Next, you could learn few things about sublimation (not, actually, the case for Titan, cause pressure/temperature favor liquid methane/ethane).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
8 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

Where did you learned that? Utter nonsense. What is triple point for methane (at 1 atm.)? What is triple point for water (again, at 1 atm. pressure)? What is boiling point for methane (and that for water; at 1 atm.)? Following your "knowledge", how you can explain water vapor presence in Earth's atmosphere?

Next, you could learn few things about sublimation (not, actually, the case for Titan, cause pressure/temperature favor liquid methane/ethane).

Hold water, but within sublimation, not in the case under discussion.
In translation you're saying that on Arctic and Antarctic happening all significant evaporation of the Earth and that warmer part of the Earth have no role.
At the same time you claim that on Antarctica and Arctic have rivers and lakes.
I repeat you see the right things but you have to put in the context of the discussion.
It is not good (except for creating the effect of expression) part of the the whole to give priority to the detriment of the entire system.

Edited by Weitter Duckss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245
On 6/10/2016 at 8:19 AM, Weitter Duckss said:

Hold water, but within sublimation, not in the case under discussion.
In translation you're saying that on Arctic and Antarctic happening all significant evaporation of the Earth and that warmer part of the Earth have no role.
At the same time you claim that on Antarctica and Arctic have rivers and lakes.
[...]

Where and when did I said THAT, huh?

ALL data indicate liquid hydrocarbon lakes/seas on Titan. PERIOD.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
On 13.06.2016. at 9:44 AM, bmk1245 said:

Where and when did I said THAT, huh?

ALL data indicate liquid hydrocarbon lakes/seas on Titan. PERIOD.

"In Translation" = parallel, relations of similarity. The goal of the discussion is closer to reality. Setting lakes of hydrocarbons in the polar part (by the "scientists") is very thoughtless. This is a continuation of earlier (collapsed) statements referring about oceans on Titan, before landing, the probe, when he caught a desert without a drop of liquid.
My goal is not (here) to prove my point but deny "scientific" hypothesis through complete access to all the real factors.
Try to make some conclusions about which there is no doubt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245
4 hours ago, Weitter Duckss said:

"In Translation" = parallel, relations of similarity. The goal of the discussion is closer to reality. Setting lakes of hydrocarbons in the polar part (by the "scientists") is very thoughtless. This is a continuation of earlier (collapsed) statements referring about oceans on Titan, before landing, the probe, when he caught a desert without a drop of liquid.
My goal is not (here) to prove my point but deny "scientific" hypothesis through complete access to all the real factors.
Try to make some conclusions about which there is no doubt.

Oh yeah? Let me ask you: do you know what specular reflection means?  What kind of natural surface can "produce" mainly specular reflection?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
10 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

Oh yeah? Let me ask you: do you know what specular reflection means?  What kind of natural surface can "produce" mainly specular reflection?

I suggest avoiding discussion on the topic for which is confirmed to be inaccurate and we have confirmation of this (oceans of oil on Titan - the desert). It is not possible to defend, however, thanks mistaken for sending probes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245
5 hours ago, Weitter Duckss said:

I suggest avoiding discussion on the topic for which is confirmed to be inaccurate and we have confirmation of this (oceans of oil on Titan - the desert). It is not possible to defend, however, thanks mistaken for sending probes.

I asked leading questions for a very reason, and thats why:

Quote

After more than 50 close flybys of Titan by the Cassini spacecraft, it has become evident that features similar in morphology to terrestrial lakes and seas exist in Titan's polar regions. As Titan progresses into northern spring, the much more numerous and larger lakes and seas in the north-polar region suggested by Cassini RADAR data, are becoming directly illuminated for the first time since the arrival of the Cassini spacecraft. This allows the Cassini optical instruments to search for specular reflections to provide further confirmation that liquids are present in these evident lakes. On July 8, 2009 Cassini VIMS detected a specular reflection in the north-polar region of Titan associated with Kraken Mare, one of Titan's large, presumed seas, indicating the lake's surface is smooth and free of scatterers with respect to the wavelength of 5 μm, where VIMS detected the specular signal, strongly suggesting it is liquid.

(K.Stephan et al, Geophys. Res. Lett., 37 (2010) L07104)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
9 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

I asked leading questions for a very reason, and thats why:

(K.Stephan et al, Geophys. Res. Lett., 37 (2010) L07104)

Partially may accept the results of reflection (it does not dispute in the article). There is a bright spot that may be a lake, or before the a combination of ice with a little liquid. This provides a smooth surface.
The discussion on the composition of the bright spots do not accept without real evidence. Speculations are never good, especially along complete absence of real evidence. Nitrogen is gas at 90.5 ° K. As the mixed gas and liquid? As they accrue nitrogen in atmosphere, he is 98%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245
15 hours ago, Weitter Duckss said:

Partially may accept the results of reflection (it does not dispute in the article). There is a bright spot that may be a lake, or before the a combination of ice with a little liquid. This provides a smooth surface.
The discussion on the composition of the bright spots do not accept without real evidence. Speculations are never good, especially along complete absence of real evidence. Nitrogen is gas at 90.5 ° K. As the mixed gas and liquid? As they accrue nitrogen in atmosphere, he is 98%.

Thing is, temperatures are too high and pressure is too low on Titan for liquid nitrogen, but in favor for liquid hydrocarbons (mixture of ethane, methane, and other constituents).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
1 hour ago, bmk1245 said:

Thing is, temperatures are too high and pressure is too low on Titan for liquid nitrogen, but in favor for liquid hydrocarbons (mixture of ethane, methane, and other constituents).

The difference between 77.355 ° K (melting point of nitrogen) and 90.5 ° K ("measured" temperature) can not compensate for the pressure (1.5 of the Earth).
Secondly if have the same temperature (methane and ethane) melting point (90.7 ° K and 90.4 ° K) the rest is nothing the same. It shows the atmosphere. There is only methane, it directly contested assertions of that type.
After all, there remains only the suspected, in the main culprit ie measurement results and discussion due to ignorance of the matter or superficial observation wider whole.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245
48 minutes ago, Weitter Duckss said:

The difference between 77.355 ° K (melting point of nitrogen) and 90.5 ° K ("measured" temperature) can not compensate for the pressure (1.5 of the Earth).
Secondly if have the same temperature (methane and ethane) melting point (90.7 ° K and 90.4 ° K) the rest is nothing the same. It shows the atmosphere. There is only methane, it directly contested assertions of that type.
After all, there remains only the suspected, in the main culprit ie measurement results and discussion due to ignorance of the matter or superficial observation wider whole.
 

:blink:

Oh dear... You don't know the difference between melting point and boiling point, yet you are trying to contest scientists who know much more than just basic physics...

Temperature of 77.36 K is boiling point of nitrogen at 1 atm pressure.

If you want liquid nitrogen at ~90 K, you need pressures at least 3.5 atm (and above).

Get your facts straight first, and only then try to disprove recent findings about Titan.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Weitter Duckss
15 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

:blink:

Oh dear... You don't know the difference between melting point and boiling point, yet you are trying to contest scientists who know much more than just basic physics...

Temperature of 77.36 K is boiling point of nitrogen at 1 atm pressure.

If you want liquid nitrogen at ~90 K, you need pressures at least 3.5 atm (and above).

Get your facts straight first, and only then try to disprove recent findings about Titan.

Let us pause to Titan and Earth no in the lab. The values are 1 and 1.47 atm.
The article is set to consider the atmosphere of Titan and is based on the existence of lakes of liquid.
Assume that the measurements are accurate. What explained? Nothing. We have a fluid and temperature at which is not forms a the atmosphere.
In contrast we have the descending process condensation of CH4 and different ratio in the lower and upper atmosphere. Also the results show no distortion amount of CH4 in the atmosphere. This means there are processes to keep the system in the existing balance.
Personally not matter to me what is but it must have meaning (tail and head).

Edited by Weitter Duckss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bmk1245
1 hour ago, Weitter Duckss said:

Let us pause to Titan and Earth no in the lab. The values are 1 and 1.47 atm.
The article is set to consider the atmosphere of Titan and is based on the existence of lakes of liquid.
Assume that the measurements are accurate. What explained? Nothing. We have a fluid and temperature at which is not forms a the atmosphere.
In contrast we have the descending process condensation of CH4 and different ratio in the lower and upper atmosphere. Also the results show no distortion amount of CH4 in the atmosphere. This means there are processes to keep the system in the existing balance.
Personally not matter to me what is but it must have meaning (tail and head).

Lets see:

Quote

Here we report infrared spectroscopic data, obtained by the Visual and Infrared Mapping Spectrometer11 (VIMS) on board the Cassini spacecraft, that strongly indicate that ethane, probably in liquid solution with methane, nitrogen and other low-molecular-mass hydrocarbons, is contained within Titan’s Ontario Lacus.

(emphasis mine; R.Brown et al, Nature 454 (2008) 607)

 

Try again...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.