Mass-casualty shooting at Orlando nightclub

[bee]

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instead of encouraging Islam in the west we could start discouraging it --- through education --- and being more strict about what goes on in mosques--- like if there is any link with extremism - close it down . If this is too much for the appeasers - close it down for a year - or two - 

any other organization that practiced sexism and homophobia and separation from the mainstream - would probably get banned and shut down - but Islam gets a free pass --- ??

muslims may have to give up their organization and their indoctrination if they want to live in the West...?

or at least water it all down -

this would cause one hell of a social storm --- but doing nothing is not going to be an option somewhere down the line ---

 

.???

 

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[+susieice]

11 minutes ago, Thanato said:

How did we eliminate the majority of Christian Fundamentalists? If memory serves it was done through education, and it took a long long time.

That is the problem, people want a solution today that will work tomorrow. People are not willing to wait the few decades while access to education and thought spreads in these regions.

Alright. We'll wait a few decades. In the meantime, those who die, will just die right?

 

[questionmark]

1 minute ago, susieice said:

Who is suggesting that? What you need to do is pay attention to all the Johns that are making the claims. Until you do, this will keep happening. Really, John doesn't have to claim anything. All he has to do is go out shooting. And don't tell me about guns. John has the brain.

Well, then we are back to where I was 2 pages ago: how come the FBI allowed this guy to have a gun and to guard federal interests?

And that is the failure  to be addressed here here. Not ISIS or whatever.

 

Edited June 12, 2016 by questionmark

[Yamato]

"Members of a Mosque no guns for you"???

Way to scat on the 1st and the 2nd at the same time.    That's not gonna happen here, Jack.   You'll get the white right-wingers in the gunfight with unconstitutional bologna like that.

If you want to pull some junk on this country like that, then amend the 1st and the 2nd to include all your little gun controller dingles and dangles.

[Thorvir]

Just now, susieice said:

Alright. We'll wait a few decades. In the meantime, those who die, will just die right?

 

We've been waiting for nearly a decade already, and it's only gotten worse.

[Deleted]

4 minutes ago, bee said:

.

 

instead of encouraging Islam in the west we could start discouraging it --- through education --- and being more strict about what goes on in mosques--- like if there is any link with extremism - close it down . If this is too much for the appeasers - close it down for a year - or two - 

any other organization that practiced sexism and homophobia and separation from the mainstream - would probably get banned and shut down - but Islam gets a free pass --- ??

muslims may have to give up their organization and their indoctrination if they want to live in the West...?

or at least water it all down -

this would cause one hell of a social storm --- but doing nothing is not going to be an option somewhere down the line ---

 

.???

 

.

 

Almost every modern religion practice sexism and homophibia. Don't use liberal values to push your agenda

Edited June 12, 2016 by hellwyr

[+susieice]

11 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

Again...where is the excuse in that response? You keep saying that word, and I don't think you know what it means.

Just keep ignoring what's being said. I'm done arguing. This is just going to have to keep going until people wake up and face the problem.

[F3SS]

Chaos you have an inability to separate matters. You say all all the time.

6 minutes ago, Thanato said:

How did we eliminate the majority of Christian Fundamentalists? If memory serves it was done through education, and it took a long long time.

That is the problem, people want a solution today that will work tomorrow. People are not willing to wait the few decades while access to education and thought spreads in these regions.

So we should bear this slaughter for decades? This ideology has flourished for centuries, millennia maybe. They refuse to mature.

3 minutes ago, Yamato said:

Maybe 63 years of underhanded and violent regime-change policy in the Middle East has something to do with it.

Brussels and Tel-Aviv are involved in regime change too? They're plain insane. Simple as that.

2 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Well, tell me how you want to stop people claiming that "God made them do it" when they commit an atrocity? Forbid religion?

 

You can't but if they're suggesting such things beforehand you treat them with extreme prejudice. Perhaps this guy could legally buy a gun still. However, he's been on the radar for extremism and buying a gun should have been an invite for the FBI to stop by his house and say hello. One doesn't need treated like a suspect in order to make him think he's being suspected. Or, make jihadism illegal. Isn't threatening to kill someone illegal? Jihad is either an intent or a threat. Call for jihad on Facebook and you've committed a federal offense. No guns for you and some jail time. Obviously they can go underground but at least we shouldn't make it easy for them.

[GlitterRose]

6 minutes ago, bee said:

.

 

instead of encouraging Islam in the west we could start discouraging it --- through education --- and being more strict about what goes on in mosques--- like if there is any link with extremism - close it down . If this is too much for the appeasers - close it down for a year - or two - 

any other organization that practiced sexism and homophobia and separation from the mainstream - would probably get banned and shut down - but Islam gets a free pass --- ??

muslims may have to give up their organization and their indoctrination if they want to live in the West...?

or at least water it all down -

this would cause one hell of a social storm --- but doing nothing is not going to be an option somewhere down the line ---

 

.???

 

.

 

Well, there are plenty of Christian organizations that practice sexism, homophobia, and separation from the mainstream. Any attempt to shut down *only* the mosques for that would be unconstitutional, and I doubt Christians would be willing to close their doors, as well. 

That's what I keep trying to get across. Any legislation would have to be across the board. It couldn't *only* apply to Muslims...so be careful what you wish for. 

If you open up the mosques to government scrutiny...you invite government officials into every church Sunday School to make sure no one is being taught sexism, homophobia and separation from the mainstream.

Edited June 12, 2016 by ChaosRose

[+susieice]

11 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Well, tell me how you want to stop people claiming that "God made them do it" when they commit an atrocity? Forbid religion?

 

You can't forbid religion. You start facing radicalism no matter what religion. And most people who practice religion don't practice radicalism.

[Yamato]

1 minute ago, F3SS said:

Brussels and Tel-Aviv are involved in regime change too?

Belgium, yes.   Although Israel can't pick up a spoon in the war against ISIS.   We're stupidly fighting their wars for them once again.  Gobama!

[bee]

2 minutes ago, hellwyr said:

Almost every modern religion practice sexism and homophibia. Don't use liberal values to push your agenda

 

In a church - men and women sit in the same area (as far as I know, in all churches) this doesn't happen in a mosque -

Encouraging this kind of thing by allowing it to continue without any opposition is an example of what could be changed ---

just because it's an organization calling itself a religion should not give it a free pass to have different '''rules''' that would not be acceptable somewhere else --

When I was in hospital a couple of years ago - there was a multi faith prayer room - I'm not religious but I went to sit in it for some quiet thought -- the Muslim part was a large carpeted area where the men prayed - but the women had to go into a small, separate closed area out of sight - it made me feel uncomfortable -

 

.

 

[+susieice]

12 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Well, then we are back to where I was 2 pages ago: how come the FBI allowed this guy to have a gun and to guard federal interests?

And that is the failure  to be addressed here here. Not ISIS or whatever.

 

It's a round about argument I agreed with 2 pages ago. 

[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, bee said:

 

In a church - men and women sit in the same area (as far as I know, in all churches) this doesn't happen in a mosque -

Encouraging this kind of thing by allowing it to continue without any opposition is an example of what could be changed ---

just because it's an organization calling itself a religion should not give it a free pass to have different '''rules''' that would not be acceptable somewhere else --

When I was in hospital a couple of years ago - there was a multi faith prayer room - I'm not religious but I went to sit in it for some quiet thought -- the Muslim part was a large carpeted area where the men prayed - but the women had to go into a small, separate closed area out of sight - it made me feel uncomfortable -

 

.

 

Passages from the bible are frequently taught in churches that are extremely sexist. Also, there are churches where women are expected to cover their hair, not wear makeup, dress modestly, etc., and these things are not applied to men. There are also various churches in which women are not allowed to become clergy. Just because women can sit in a pew, it doesn't mean that there is no sexism in churches. 

The whole point of freedom of religion is that people have the right to decide what they believe. Churches are not like businesses that serve the public. They are allowed to have some of their own rules within the church, for instance, deciding not to marry gay people. If you want to impose that churches suddenly become non-sexist, non-homophobic, and mainstream...I'm not sure how you would manage that with freedom of religion, speech, privacy, etc. 

[Deleted]

1 minute ago, bee said:

 

In a church - men and women sit in the same area (as far as I know, in all churches) this doesn't happen in a mosque -

Encouraging this kind of thing by allowing it to continue without any opposition is an example of what could be changed ---

just because it's an organization calling itself a religion should not give it a free pass to have different '''rules''' that would not be acceptable somewhere else --

When I was in hospital a couple of years ago - there was a multi faith prayer room - I'm not religious but I went to sit in it for some quiet thought -- the Muslim part was a large carpeted area where the men prayed - but the women had to go into a small, separate closed area out of sight - it made me feel uncomfortable -

 

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I don't know if a law can be passed which states that women and men must be in the same area or room. I think it is not realistic. However if someone would sue the mosque or said hospital ( a participant) she could demand equal space maybe? A mosque or church is not a public or federal instituation so there is probably a different legislation in place. Also, it would depend on the state, I think.

Crosses, churches, mosque and a lot more, they all make me feel uncomfortable. However, I don't participate in any of those communities so I say it is non of my business.

[bee]

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If your religion becomes too much of a problem for the Western society you live in ---------- no religion for you ------

 

(why stop at 'no guns for you'.....)

 

[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, bee said:

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If your religion becomes too much of a problem for the Western society you live in ---------- no religion for you ------

 

(why stop at 'no guns for you'.....)

 

But again...it's not the religion that's the problem. It's the behavior. And how would you go about banning a person from having a particular belief? There is just simply no way to do that. You could try to take a person out of a church or a mosque (if it doesn't bother you that this is completely unconstitutional), but you can't make them suddenly love gay people. 

[Deleted]

2 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

But again...it's not the religion that's the problem. It's the behavior. And how would you go about banning a person from having a particular belief? There is just simply no way to do that. You could try to take a person out of a church or a mosque (if it doesn't bother you that this is completely unconstitutional), but you can't make them suddenly love gay people. 

On top of that, it would probably result even more violence. If not in a civil war.

Edited June 12, 2016 by hellwyr

[bee]

1 minute ago, hellwyr said:

I don't know if a law can be passed which states that women and men must be in the same area or room. I think it is not realistic. However if someone would sue the mosque or said hospital ( a participant) she could demand equal space maybe? A mosque or church is not a public or federal instituation so there is probably a different legislation in place. Also, it would depend on the state, I think.

Crosses, churches, mosque and a lot more, they all make me feel uncomfortable. However, I don't participate in any of those communities so I say it is non of my business.

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you make a couple of good points ----

 

but --- when a religious organization becomes a deadly problem (for what ever reason) it has to become our business - those poor people who died in the gay night club - texting their families and friends as they were murdered - I think the death toll will probably rise quite a bit and those who were injured but survived will  have to live with their injuries and try and get over it all, somehow ---

LIke it or not ----- a religious organization, based on the indoctrination of children was behind the massacre -   

[Lilly]

Stop the name calling and there won't be any editing. If this thread becomes a fight-fest it will end up locked. Keep that in mind.

[F3SS]

Yes let's keep it open.

[GlitterRose]

Just now, bee said:

.

you make a couple of good points ----

 

but --- when a religious organization becomes a deadly problem (for what ever reason) it has to become our business - those poor people who died in the gay night club - texting their families and friends as they were murdered - I think the death toll will probably rise quite a bit and those who were injured but survived will  have to live with their injuries and try and get over it all, somehow ---

LIke it or not ----- a religious organization, based on the indoctrination of children was behind the massacre -   

Every religious organization could be referred to as "a deadly problem" because they all have people in them, and there are always going to be those people who have a tendency towards becoming extreme and violent. When that guy shot up the abortion clinic, no one was calling the Christian religion "a deadly problem." 

[Lilly]

Well, right now (at this time in history) the deadly problem is hands down Radical Extremist Jihadist Islam.

[pallidin]

May I (along with all others) take a moment here to express my outrage over the incident, and heartfelt recognition of the unimaginable grief of the families, loved ones and acquaintances of the victims, both deceased and wounded.

I am not ashamed to say that I've shed many tears over this massacre.

[+susieice]

Religion isn't deadly. People who abuse it are. So are those who would support the terrorist acts of others.