Mass-casualty shooting at Orlando nightclub

[GlitterRose]

If what you're going after is the indoctrination of children, again, if you would want to stop that it would infringe on freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and parental rights. 

I'm not saying I wouldn't wish to "save" those children out there who are suffering it, but where would it end? Could you, as a parent, mention any of your opinions on politics or religion in front of your children? 

[Deleted]

12 minutes ago, bee said:

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you make a couple of good points ----

 

but --- when a religious organization becomes a deadly problem (for what ever reason) it has to become our business - those poor people who died in the gay night club - texting their families and friends as they were murdered - I think the death toll will probably rise quite a bit and those who were injured but survived will  have to live with their injuries and try and get over it all, somehow ---

LIke it or not ----- a religious organization, based on the indoctrination of children was behind the massacre -   

I am well aware of that fact. As far as indoctrination goes the bible is the same. Anyway the point is that the interpretation of those books is up to the reader or preacher. And the bible as well as the koran can be interpreted very literally which would inevitably result in mass murder. However, since as a matter of fact billions of people believe in that crap, a harmless interpretation must be provided and promoted. And many organisation do exactly that they promote a peaceful Islam or Christendom.

Also, I would like to point out that the reasons for a mass-shooting in the US are different than in Syria. The guy may claim he did it because of his religion but the underlying reasons are probably quite different from someone in Syria. Everything is not as simple as many try to portray it. 

Edited June 12, 2016 by hellwyr

[Yamato]

10 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

That's what he keeps dodging. And probably because he asserted that this is not an American problem, but an Islamic one. It's not either. Ideologies do not commit crimes. People do. And not all of them. Just some of them. Outlawing an ideology would not a) be possible or b ) be effective, because someone who had a penchant for being an extremist would just go off and find some other ideology to take to an extreme. 

He's just gotta have his "member of a mosque" gun control attachment apparently.

[bee]

9 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

But again...it's not the religion that's the problem. It's the behavior. And how would you go about banning a person from having a particular belief? There is just simply no way to do that. You could try to take a person out of a church or a mosque (if it doesn't bother you that this is completely unconstitutional), but you can't make them suddenly love gay people. 

 

religious beliefs are taught - no one is born with religious beliefs -  --- only adult converts are actually choosing to be religious  - children being indoctrinated don't choose -  so this would be the place to start ... discouraging faith schools and separation - down grading religion as something good and desirable and putting it more into the hobby bracket...

 

 

 

[Yamato]

16 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

But again...it's not the religion that's the problem. It's the behavior. And how would you go about banning a person from having a particular belief? There is just simply no way to do that. You could try to take a person out of a church or a mosque (if it doesn't bother you that this is completely unconstitutional), but you can't make them suddenly love gay people. 

It's indeed another case of guilt by association.   Another unconstitutional case of guilt by association.  Thank you for pointing that out.

[GlitterRose]

32 minutes ago, bee said:

Box won't go away. :/

[Flog]

At the root of all this, are religius beliefs, that actions in this life will grant you rewards in the afterlife. Why people still believe in this in 2016 is beyond my understanding. If at least preasts would preach that "whatever you do in this life, will come back to haunt you in the next" ...maybe then 'people' would start behaving

[bee]

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indoctrination of children into religion --- any religion ---- could be outlawed

it could be looked on as a kind of child abuse - which is what it is, really 

[GlitterRose]

5 minutes ago, bee said:

 

religious beliefs are taught - no one is born with religious beliefs -  --- only adult converts are actually choosing to be religious  - children being indoctrinated don't choose -  so this would be the place to start ... discouraging faith schools and separation - down grading religion as something good and desirable and putting it more into the hobby bracket...

 

 

 

And again...people have rights. They have rights regarding their children. Religious schools are already discouraged in that they aren't free. You could try to outlaw home schooling, but again, people have rights regarding their children and their education. They also have the right to decide where and how they want to live. If they want to live together in a commune with only people who think like them...there are no laws against that. If you're saying there should be, be careful with that. 

[Deleted]

5 minutes ago, Flog said:

5 minutes ago, bee said:

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indoctrination of children into religion --- any religion ---- could be outlawed

it could be looked on as a kind of child abuse - which is what it is, really 

At the root of all this, are religius beliefs, that actions in this life will grant you rewards in the afterlife. Why people still believe in this in 2016 is beyond my understanding. If at least preasts would preach that "whatever you do in this life, will come back to haunt you in the next" ...maybe then 'people' would start behaving

Actually a law would be nice which would forbid children to join a religion. However it is not realistic. How do you want to enforce it? How do you want to define religion by law?  

Edited June 12, 2016 by hellwyr

[bee]

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@ChaosRose ---- I had a problem with the quote boxes earlier ---couldn't do a thing with it -- :/

 

oh perhaps you've got it sorted just seen the notification

[Jack Skellington]

6 minutes ago, Yamato said:

He's just gotta have his "member of a mosque" gun control attachment apparently.

Don't miss the major point while desperately trying to make a personal one.

I was within a mile of the San Bernardino massacre when it happened.  The shooters were known to law enforcement not because of their religion, but because coworkers had reported one of the shooters had made several violent threats against them. 

Try to follow...  YOU are the investigator.  In some law enforcement circles that "tip" from coworkers would become a "clue" when your investigation next revealed that this guy was muslim, made jihadist threats, like to practice shooting an AR, store-bought a bride from the most radical mosque in Pakistan AND was a total dick.

But.... then, as now.... investigators didn't have a "clue."  And did nothing.

The point is---- let's NOT do nothing anymore.

 

[bee]

1 minute ago, hellwyr said:

Actually a law would be nice which would forbid children to join a religion. However it is not realistic. How do you want to enforce it? How do you want to define religion by law?  

 

at least discussing the possibility could be a start.... but somehow because people have ''''beliefs''' somehow that becomes sacrosanct - 

but ''''beliefs'''' at the end of the day are taught  --- like anything else is taught 

 

at the moment I've got Sky News on the telly and there's just been a drama and a gay guy has just stormed off --- just like on this thread people are getting very emotional ---

 

I think the guy stormed off because the presenters were questioning whether the gay community was specifically targeted or not - not sure because I was typing all this --

[Yamato]

3 minutes ago, Jack Skellington said:

Don't miss the major point while desperately trying to make a personal one.

I was within a mile of the San Bernardino massacre when it happened.  The shooters were known to law enforcement not because of their religion, but because coworkers had reported one of the shooters had made several violent threats against them. 

Try to follow...  YOU are the investigator.  In some law enforcement circles that "tip" from coworkers would become a "clue" when your investigation next revealed that this guy was muslim, made jihadist threats, like to practice shooting an AR, store-bought a bride from the most radical mosque in Pakistan AND was a total dick.

But.... then, as now.... investigators didn't have a "clue."  And did nothing.

The point is---- let's NOT do nothing anymore.

 

If that's the point, then the point is that the DHS, TSA, NSA, CIA, FBI et al etc does nothing!    How much do we have to do, to get to something?    How big does your govt have to grow Jack?

[GlitterRose]

6 minutes ago, Flog said:

At the root of all this, are religius beliefs, that actions in this life will grant you rewards in the afterlife. Why people still believe in this in 2016 is beyond my understanding. If at least preasts would preach that "whatever you do in this life, will come back to haunt you in the next" ...maybe then 'people' would start behaving

Have you ever been to a church? They do preach that. It's just that many religions also tend to teach that there is a reward in paradise awaiting those who do what God wants them to. People just seem to have varying opinions on what God wants them to do (although they are largely reading the same texts.)

There's this idea that if religion went away, suddenly people would become peaceful. Don't you think that even if religion disappeared (which is likely impossible) that people who have a tendency towards violent extremism would just find some other ideology to take its place? 

[pallidin]

The at-scene 50 deceased are still inside Pulse as investigators roam among them, photographing and collecting evidence.

This would be way too much a carnage for myself to handle. Glad there are those that can.

 

Edited June 12, 2016 by pallidin

[Yamato]

14 minutes ago, bee said:

.indoctrination of children into religion --- any religion ---- could be outlawed

it could be looked on as a kind of child abuse - which is what it is, really 

Indoctrination of children into a red, white and blue flag waving country western song okay? 

[bee]

11 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

And again...people have rights. They have rights regarding their children. Religious schools are already discouraged in that they aren't free. You could try to outlaw home schooling, but again, people have rights regarding their children and their education. They also have the right to decide where and how they want to live. If they want to live together in a commune with only people who think like them...there are no laws against that. If you're saying there should be, be careful with that. 

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Good points and a shift away from religious indoctrination wouldn't be a walk in the park ---

 

I suppose looking at children's rights not to be indoctrinated might be a way into it...?

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[Jack Skellington]

It has to shrink actually.

When the coworker reports and law enforcement investigates all government has to do is get out of the way.

It's political correctness that prevents any step in the right direction from implementation.  When Farook and Tashfeen shot up the Christmas party it was a failure to act on good information that had been dutifully reported to law enforcement.  At what point in the hierarchy of incompetence did the ball get dropped and the investigation get shut down?  Was it his Union?  His County Supervisor?  Was it the DOJ or FBI or Homeland Security who decided that there wasn't enough information to act on?

Right now the only information we act on are the news reports of carnage, and our only act is to feign outrage while SOME shrill on about all the things we can't and musn't do. 

 

[GlitterRose]

10 minutes ago, Jack Skellington said:

Don't miss the major point while desperately trying to make a personal one.

I was within a mile of the San Bernardino massacre when it happened.  The shooters were known to law enforcement not because of their religion, but because coworkers had reported one of the shooters had made several violent threats against them. 

Try to follow...  YOU are the investigator.  In some law enforcement circles that "tip" from coworkers would become a "clue" when your investigation next revealed that this guy was muslim, made jihadist threats, like to practice shooting an AR, store-bought a bride from the most radical mosque in Pakistan AND was a total dick.

But.... then, as now.... investigators didn't have a "clue."  And did nothing.

The point is---- let's NOT do nothing anymore.

 

I get the let's not do nothing, but it should be about the threats and not the fact that the guy was a Muslim, or that he liked to shoot a legal firearm. And if dickness was a crime...

1 minute ago, Yamato said:

Indoctrination of children into a red, white and blue flag waving country western song okay? 

Good point. We all have our own ideology. And if it becomes anti-religion, then it's still an ideology, and shouldn't be forced on others. 

[Jack Skellington]

Obviously the point is the threat of violence.

If the subject is a member of PETA.  ...a vegetarian.  ...has a Bernie Sanders sticker on her Prius.   --- And makes violent threats.... no guns.

[bee]

13 minutes ago, Yamato said:

Indoctrination of children into a red, white and blue flag waving country western song okay? 

 

there are areas of political indoctrination that might affect any of us, depending on our family and education --- but the thoroughness of the heavy religious indoctrination that millions of children in this world have to 'suffer ' - affecting them psychologically for life and enslaving them ---- is in a different league ---- IMO

 

edit to say --- I'm going now - thanks for the discussion everyone ---

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Edited June 12, 2016 by bee

[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, bee said:

 

there are areas of political indoctrination that might affect any of us, depending on our family and education --- but the thoroughness of the heavy religious indoctrination that millions of children in this world have to 'suffer ' - affecting them psychologically for life and enslaving them ---- is in a different league ---- IMO

 

You could try to make a case for the rights of the child not to be indoctrinated, but like I said...it's kind of a slippery slope on free speech and parental rights. One might look at it like the government just gained the right to indoctrinate their children into secularism. 

[pallidin]

Something tells me that the Pulse Nightclub at their Orlando location will NEVER open again at that location.

Once all is said and done, I can only presume that that location will be completely torn-down. And I would agree.

[F3SS]

23 minutes ago, pallidin said:

The at-scene 50 deceased are still inside Pulse as investigators roam among them, photographing and collecting evidence.

This would be way too much a carnage for myself to handle. Glad there are those that can.

 

I doubt any of them can. Who could? But they have to. None of the officials walking through that crime scene will sleep well tonight or any time soon after seeing all that. The carnage must be unreal.