Mass-casualty shooting at Orlando nightclub

[RavenHawk]

3 minutes ago, hellwyr said:

Our definition of liberal values aka left obviously differ. They may have used ideas from the left but obviously were fascists. And fascism is part of the right. Left per definition would be anti-fascism

You seem to miss the point.  It’s not a difference between Communism vs Fascism, etc.  It is that they both control the people with a state police (iron fist).  Doesn’t matter if it is Left or Right.

 

since the left ideology isn't fond of any kind of leadership or hierarchy.

The Left isn’t based in a hierarchy of leadership?  Somebody better go dig up Stalin, Mao, Pot, and Minh and tell them they were never in the hierarchy.

[Merc14]

Interesting numbers on mass shootings.   http://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/

 

[FLOMBIE]

13 minutes ago, aztek said:

so what?  you show again how clueless you are, i have to have permit for both rifles and pistols, yet all i have to do to buy a gun is to pass a NIBC at the store, it is up to me to register it and comply with local laws, not the store's.

Dude, YOU have to have that. A person in Texas does not. 

 

Edit: also, nice loophole there. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by FLOMBIE

[FLOMBIE]

8 minutes ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

yes, it's done illegally, so that, for instance, if someone wants to do something illegal with it, that'd be the logical thing to do. (unless it's a FBI Sting operation, of course.) if you're a nutcase who wants to plan a mass murder, you'd probably have done some research to find out how to do it. In fact, it's probably a very competitive market.

That's the problem. It's not that simple. Research where? On the street you'll more likely get your face bashed in. 

[aztek]

11 minutes ago, FLOMBIE said:

 

 

There are no background checks on private sells in Texas. No permit to purchase, no registration, no owner licence. Try me. 

 

 

that is you are correct about, not only in tx but all over usa, regardless what laws say.

but few  things, 1 private sales are tiny fraction of percent, 2, guns that are none registered, are uncontrollable any way you look at it. 3 the guy in question bought a gun in the store passing all background checks, private sales are irrelevant here.  your post that  i originally responded to was about how easy it was to go to the store and get everything he needed at the store.  than you claimed it is harder to get guns illegally, than from a store, in fact you said anyone can. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by aztek

[aztek]

13 minutes ago, FLOMBIE said:

Dude, YOU have to have that. A person in Texas does not. 

i have to have what? a permit? lol, not to buy  a gun outside of the city. all i need actually for a rifle is a driver license. for pistol same thing, it is my problem to register them  after. i only need permits in case i get pulled over and cops want to know if i have guns legally in nyc, that is all what permit \ license does.

Edited June 13, 2016 by aztek

[Stubbly_Dooright]

1 hour ago, Rinna said:

I don't think the issue was his mother teaching him how to shoot guns, but rather ignoring his severe mental issues. If you are a violent person, and you have become obsessed with the idea of inflicting harm on a large group of people quickly, you will do it. You can lookup how to make a bomb on the Internet. You can drive your car into something, you can stab people. I know you are an advocate for mental health reform in this country Stub, and the Newtown shooter is a prime example of that. 

And yes, that is my main point ( sorry it got lost in my lack of communication skills ) Anyways, every time something like this happens, it's the pro-guns against the anti-guns, and other issues that show itself in all of these tragedies tend to get neglected. I do see the terrorist influence here, but there is a hate issue here too. 

And I'm quite aware of the fact that it's very controversial and not simple in dealing with mental stability or instability, but I think we need to put more concern on it. Even if it's controversial of how we do it. The gun debate is also controversial, but it doesn't seem to be a subject that is being ignored, no hardly, each side is ready to discuss it, controversial points and all. 

I think my point is, half the time, the shooters have had each access to their weapons, because it was legal to do so. You're right, there is also the examples of the frame of minds of the shooters and those around them, that may have influenced it, and that gets swept under the carpet eventually. 

So while we discuss the good and the bad of owning guns, and that this is a religious terrorist act or a hate crime, let's talk about how we can also 'pay attention' to how we can look at all intentions and reactions, including mental and emotional. I think, despite all of the tough ways and all the elements of whether we lose our freedom or not on being on a watch list or some wanting to have an 'intervention' of those with troubling situations or mental problems, at least see if we need to pay attention to that instead pushing it aside, because it is hard to fathom. 

This is all getting simplified, despite the two sides of gun control, race relations, and ideals. It's not simplified, not in the way I see it. 

[FLOMBIE]

5 minutes ago, aztek said:

that is you are correct about, not only in tx but all over usa, regardless what laws say.

but few  things, 1 private sales are tiny fraction of percent, 2, guns that are none registered, are uncontrollable any way you look at it. 3 they guy in question bought a gun in the store passing all background checks, private sales are irrelevant here.  your post that  i originally responded to was about how easy it was to go to the store and get everything he needed at the store. 

And that is kinda easy as well. It always depends on what you compare it with. 

 

But you don't even want to change anything. It's more difficult to get an abortion than a gun in your country. I respect your second amendment, but come on. It's only your country where the nutjobs commit mass shootings (Yes, there are single occations in other countries as well. But it's not even close to be on the same level.).

Edited June 13, 2016 by FLOMBIE

[FLOMBIE]

2 minutes ago, aztek said:

i have to have what? a permit? lol, not to buy one a gun outside of the city. all i need actually for a rifle is a driver license.

And that so rad, right?

[aztek]

6 minutes ago, FLOMBIE said:

 

 

But you don't even want to change anything. 

you right, i do not, i do not see it do anything but make it harder for me.

 

but you have a point, we do have unproportional amount of nut jobs. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by aztek

[FLOMBIE]

6 minutes ago, aztek said:

you right, i do not, i do not see it do anything but make it harder for me.

 

but you have a point, we do have unproportional amount of nut jobs. 

I find that pretty selfish. But it's your life. 

 

Edit: An unproportional amount of nutjobs with easy access to modern firearms, 

Edited June 13, 2016 by FLOMBIE

[aztek]

9 minutes ago, FLOMBIE said:

 

 

Edit: An unproportional amount of nutjobs with easy access to modern firearms, 

ok, so what should be done? so it does not affect me, and 50+ millions of other gun owners.

Edited June 13, 2016 by aztek

[Dark_Grey]

4 minutes ago, aztek said:

ok, so what should be done? so it doe snot affect me, and 50+ millions of other gun owners.

These gun arguments keep in going in circles, thread after thread, pros and antis arguing over the same points.

That being said, let's hammer these points again.

Guns are not the issue. If it was as simple as guns per capita, we could expect similar casualty rates across other well armed countries which we simply do not see. America stands very alone in this.

So if it's not a matter of gun volume, what is it? Access to guns would be my bet. It's the biggest and most influential difference between armed countries and America. In no other gun wielding country that I'm aware of, can one walk in to a gun store and purchase a firearm so quickly and easily (generally speaking). Good freaking luck doing that in Canada - even private transactions require a legal license. Your background will be checked by government intelligences, in some cases references will be called to verify you are of sound mind. Note this is to purchase a run-of-the-mill deer hunting rifle.

This is how you prevent mass shootings. America has a mental health problem, disguised as a gun problem. Fix the people and the gun issue will resolve itself. (Talk about "easier said than done"..)

 

[aztek]

8 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

 

This is how you prevent mass shootings. America has a mental health problem, disguised as a gun problem. Fix the people and the gun issue will resolve itself. (Talk about "easier said than done"..)

 

pretty much, if it is not a nutcase (whose actions came as a surprise to no one that knew him) or islamic  nut who have been under watch or investigations by feds before. (San bernadino\Boston marathon)

Edited June 13, 2016 by aztek

[simplybill]

1 hour ago, Lilly said:

ISIS operates via the internet indoctrination of anyone who will kill large numbers of those they consider as being enemies of their sick ideology...period.  

Lilly - 

I think you hit the target in this discussion.

ISIS/Daesh has essentially eliminated the "lone wolf" category by inviting lone wolves into the pack. They're brilliant tacticians. They've appropriated the most dangerous of human passions: anger. Anger has been legitimized, unleashed, and given a purpose. 

ISIS/Daesh may be impossible to eliminate at this point, as they have morphed into a loose, ephemeral group of like-minded, unrestrained pack animals. Trying to destroy them will be like trying to stab a ghost.

 

[odas]

First, my thoughts and prayers for the victims and their families. Another tragic loss of innocent life.

Another preventable tragedy if someone would have done their job right by further investigating this idiot and by restricting gun ownership.

 

[FLOMBIE]

31 minutes ago, aztek said:

ok, so what should be done? so it does not affect me, and 50+ millions of other gun owners.

That's not my job to find out. But I could work on something if I get payed for it. 

I am just shocked by the lack of compassion. This is how societies go down. 

[Jack Skellington]

1 hour ago, and then said:

Fair enough.  But we, ostensibly, are still a nation of LAWS.  Until he actually breaks one (as he spectacularly did Sunday morning) he cannot be touched.  Think of an America where being accused is enough to get you incarcerated.  I'd rather bury a million than live in that way.  It always comes back to the fact that we are struggling with an enemy among us who uses our freedoms against us.  

That's a ridiculous and quite thoughtless position. 

Yes- we are a nation of laws. Their purpose is not solely to punish lawbreakers after the fact, but to prevent crime and to protect our way of life. To follow your logic we don't need law enforcement or investigators anymore, just judges and jail guards. Maybe all we need is clean up crews to mop blood from floors and gravediggers?

Let's dispense with vigilance and our security in trade for an America where only the micro aggression offenses are important, but actual criminal intent is ignored until carnage reigns upon our citizenry. 

You'd bury a million innocents, than prevent one madman from carrying out mad acts of violence-- why? You wouldn't want to offend anyone?  

This puke was a known bad actor. Known to be a member of a radical mosque. Known to be an associate of a suicide bomber from that same mosque. Known to have travelled to Saudia Arabia twice. Known to be violent. Known to have made threats. Known to be sexist, racist and gay-hating. Known to law enforcement. Known to coworkers and supervisors at work to be unstable and volatile. Known to his family to be all that he was.   

But no one did anything to deter him. No one acted on any 'accusations' because we've allowed an environment of weakness to grow like mold on the American consciousness. A fungus at the root, watered by the President himself. 

[Hawken]

Muslim scholar talks about the shooting in Florida.

https://www.facebook.com/foxandfriends/videos/vb.111938618893743/1092842604136668/?type=2&theater

[aztek]

28 minutes ago, FLOMBIE said:

I am just shocked by the lack of compassion. This is how societies go down. 

lol, road to  hell paved with good intentions.  societies go dawn because real problems are disguised and blame is put on wrong people\issues. exactly what you doing now.  

[bubblykiss]

I still feel numb from this massacre.

To murder so many wonderful, living people is just awful, hideous, loathsome.

Waking up to it is horrific burden.

I look forward to the day when blood is not shed for no reason, when men will not seek to end the lives of those around them.......but in the end I am not sure I will live to that day.

Well some coffee and smoke may brighten my mood, in the meantime, god bless those who were killed, wounded or lost their loved ones. And may the devil find fresh and total ways to torment the man who achieved so much misery and death all in the name of his own rotten intolerance.

[Rlyeh]

5 hours ago, Why not said:

If anyone in that Bar would have been carrying a legally concealed weapon, and knew how to use it properly, the outcome could have been much different.

If it was a movie.

[aztek]

31 minutes ago, Jack Skellington said:

 

You'd bury a million innocents, than prevent one madman from carrying out mad acts of violence-- why? You wouldn't want to offend anyone?  

 

how nice of you not understand his post, or intentionally twist it. 

yes, he'd rather bury million, than live in society where you punished before you commit a crime.  and he is far from alone.

 

[Jack Skellington]

44 minutes ago, aztek said:

ok, so what should be done? so it does not affect me, and 50+ millions of other gun owners.

Maybe there are some simple-- common sense things that can be done. People like to talk about their rights to own guns (bear arms) but it is not a universal right at all. Your ability to own or bear weapons varies from State to State and even County by County. It can vary from building to building as people also have 'the right' to restrict your 'right' to bring weapons onto a particular premises. 

Here in San Diego it's almost impossible to obtain a concealed carry permit because the local Sheriff deems it unnecessary for "most" residents to carry. Your 'rights' can not only be restricted on a case by case basis-- they can be removed entirely. Convicted felons lose their right to vote in some (but not all) States and restrictions on owning weapons are common-- maybe the bar should be lowered?

We restrict certain kinds of weapons--fully automatic and also large capacity magazines are banned. It would not be difficult (FOR EXAMPLE, not as a suggestion) to restrict people with restraining orders against them from purchasing or keeping weapons, or people who have had their driver's license revoked, or DUI's or people on psychiatric medications, and so on.

There is also such a thing as "guilt by association."  If (for example) young Mormon men were consistently involved in mass shootings, wouldn't it be fair to say, restrict young Mormon men from obtaining weapons? Think about it... If we had had Mormon missionaries (zealots) attack innocents in Fort Hood, in Paris, in Brussels, in San Bernardino and now in Florida (to name only a few examples) there would be an outcry about the dangers of Mormonism and there would be a call to put restrictions on young Mormon men---particularly if it was known that these men were being indoctrinated and encouraged and equipped through their association and instruction at their local churches. 

But you'll never hear the connection made where Islamic men are factually known to have been influenced at their local mosque. Maybe you give up your 'right' to own a gun when you choose to attend a radical mosque, or maybe this is simply a consideration when this is another red flag in a background check. Like demerit points-- at a certain threshold of red flag items your rights are relinquished. 

[FLOMBIE]

7 minutes ago, aztek said:

lol, road to  hell paved with good intentions.  societies go dawn because real problems are disguised and blame is put on wrong people\issues. exactly what you doing now.  

No, I am not. Problems can have multiple roots. I could also give it a different view: You just don't want it to be an issue. 

Compassion is important for democratic societes. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by FLOMBIE